Talk:Wagner Group

Opponents/Allies error

After the Wagner group rebellion, shouldn't the Armed forces of Ukraine be on their Allies' section and the Russian armed forces on the Opponents section? I don't know whether to change this or not because there might have been something I've missed.

NO, the enemy of my enemy is not my ally. Slatersteven (talk) 10:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Splitting

As has been discussed here, I think it would be a good idea to summarize Wagner Group activities in Africa in an article of that name, bringing together content currently independently sub-sectioned under this article about; Sudan, Central African Republic, Madagascar, Libya, Mozambique, Mali, Chad and Burkina Faso.

Additionally, the content under the Deaths of journalists section could be moved under the activities in those respective countries section.

Opening the discussion, please contribute. --Jabbi (talk) 21:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree. As mentioned in the archive discussion, the page is (still) too long to navigate and could do with some splitting out into separate articles. GnocchiFan (talk) 21:50, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I have created a draft article Draft:Wagner Group activities in Africa. --Jabbi (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you blank this draft and make it a redirect to the page please FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:18, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I have now created the article Wagner Group activities in Africa. The question becomes how to summarize the content on the article. The Wagner Group activities in Africa article is already ~75kb so this will be effective in making this main article clearer and more readable IMO. --Jabbi (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Utkin

Utkin seems quite likely to be a mere figurehead, this seems all but confirmed by this Bellingcat report.

Statements about Utkin should be careful:

The group was founded in 2014 by former GRU officer Dmitry Utkin and businessman Yevgeny Prigozhin. 

This is the first sentence of second paragraph of lead.

He should be much less prominent than he is. He's not been seen publicly for years, unlike Prigozhin... --Jabbi (talk) Jabbi (talk) 13:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Asarlaí:, thank you for your recent edits. I want to question whether any reference to Utkin should be made in the lead, as you have reinstated with this edit. It is correct what you mention in you edit summary that "numerous sources say Utkin was co-founder and longtime military commander, who gave the group its name, so he shouldn't be cut from the lead". However, serious highly reliable critical sources such as the Bellingcat report above which states that Utkin was "a convenient and deniable decoy to disguise [Wagner Group's] state provenance" [1] are rather dismissive of his role. Candace Rondeax refers to him as Wagner's "titular commander" [2]. Sources seem to agree that Utkin was the first operational commander of Wagner Group starting in Donbas [3]

2014 marked the end of Slavonic Corps as such, but a part of the group morphed again. That same year, Lt. Col. of the Reserves Dmitrii Utkin – a man who claims both to have earlier worked on anti-piracy for the long-lived shipping Moran Security Group, and to have been in Syria with the Slavonic Corps for the infamous trouble – popped up in the Donbas in eastern Ukraine as the commander of a new organization, the Wagner Group

In my opinion Utkin should be extensively covered in the section about Wagner Group origins. But he only serves as a distraction in the lead. He is only historic trivia.

See also: [4], [5], [6]

The lead is supposed to summarize the most important aspects of an article. Utkin seems to have been the first, yet only one of many compatible, later to come on field commanders - whose call sign gave the group it's name. That doesn't seem important to me. --Jabbi (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Unless there are any objections here I will remove again the sentence "The group was reportedly founded in 2014 by Prigozhin and former GRU officer Dmitry Utkin (alias 'Wagner')." The reason being that it is not clear what is meant exacly by "founded" (as Wagner is an informal entity) and the following sentence explains that the group came to prominence around that year, 2014. The purpose of the lead is to summarise the most important points from the article. Utkin is not important in any way to the Wagner Group. He does not seem to have ever been more than an on-field commander, one of many, admittedly the one from which the name of the group is taken, but it is not clear that this fact has any importance to it. Prigozhin is referenced in the lead as controlling Wagner. -- Jabbi (talk) 21:14, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 July 2023

217.33.144.227 (talk) 19:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

FERIAKRIM 19/05/95

What? Slatersteven (talk) 19:25, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Equipment

Are there any indications of the equipment available to them? Do they have drones, tanks, helicopters, ...? Jan olieslagers (talk) 19:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 August 2023

217.33.144.227 (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Feri akrim 19/05/95 [sy121897b]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:51, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Second sentence in lead ambigous

Second sentence reads:

The group operates beyond the law in Russia, where private military companies are officially forbidden.

It is a notable fact that Russian law fordbids PMCs and that this means that Wagner Group's status in Russia is in a grey area. Academics and journalists have pointed out that this gives Putin arbitrary power to get rid of unwanted agents or look the other way as he sees fit.

Problem is, it is unclear what is meant by "operating beyond the law in Russia", for one thing Wagner Groups apparently doesn't officially exist as an entity. Another thing is, what does that phrase mean exactly, that Wagner Group activities are illegal in Russia by default? I'm not sure the sources support that. And finally, does this belong in the lead? Wagner Group mostly seems to operate in other countries. (Which also raises the question if they operate "beyond the law" there.) Jabbi (talk) 23:58, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Sledgehammer

What is it? No mention about the stories the article subject is most known for?
https://dossier.center/kuvalda/ The Dossier Center found out the names of thugs from PMCs who tortured, killed and dismembered a Syrian in 2017 (rus)

Murder of Yevgeny Nuzhin there is even an article on this and it is only mentioned in "See also"? Manyareasexpert (talk) 21:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

PMC Wagner should redirect to this article

PCM Wagner used to redirect to this article but it no longer does. H44dyss9900 (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Ideology

Last sentence of first paragraph of lede reads:

While the group is not ideologically driven, elements of Wagner are linked to neo-Nazism and far-right extremism.

Why is is important? There is a section discussing these links to far right extremism. PMCs are by their very nature far right - its market directed violence. Take a look at Blackwater, what are the chances that the mercenaries convicted for murdering Iraqi civilians voted for Bernie Sanders. Right?

My point is, there is nothing ideological about Wagner. If a subset of mercenaries have far-right convictions that does not really tell us anything. The wording of the sentence conveys this "elements of". Well elements of nearly anything are linked to far-right extremism these days....

It's a remarkably clumsy sentence, apologetic from the start. Should be removed from lede. Jabbi (talk) 02:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes I don't think it is relevant for the lead. Almost any political ideology is irrelevant to this group. Srijanx22 (talk) 15:33, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

It is called a compromise, between those who want to say it is far-right (as you say, by definition it must be) and those who want to white wash it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I was a party to that discussion and reasonable arguments were provided on how almost nobody talked about political motivations of Wagner Group before the beginning of Ukraine war. Even today in 2023, the coverage about the political leanings is beyond minimal. Srijanx22 (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

A compromise should nonetheless have justification. It is completely unclear how it is relevant in the article's lead section. To be clear, the lead "is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents". The far right elements section is only 224 words out of the article's total of 9,237 or 2.4% and discusses only Utkin really, a single member who's been shown to be notable only for having been the first on-field commander and whose call-sign was chosen as a name for the group, and Rusich Group. The "elements" refered is then one man and one part of Wagner, Rusich Group, which according to its leader counted at most "several dozen people,". This is not important and should be removed from lead.

Also, as a thought experiment, try applying the same statement to a randomly chosen group. Let's say Deutsche Telekom or Walmart. --Jabbi (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I missed this discussion and posted about it below. Ideology isn't just about one's overtly stated views. Wagner is driven by underlying motivations. Whether that's nationalism, far-right beliefs, or just capitalist greed, there is still an ideology. LouMichel (talk) 00:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

This source (quoting an academic) is quite accurate:[7] the group has no ideology, I think it was speculated by journalists because of the fact that one of the most famous commanders, Utkin, was a neo-Nazi. I think we can take this part out of the lede. Mhorg (talk) 19:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this sentence is clearly undue for lead. Editorkamran (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Founder

According to Foreign Policy[8] and Bellingcat[9] sources in the body of the article, Utkin was one of the earlier commanders, employed to run the group, while Prigozhin (by his own admission[10]) is the real founder, owner and funder of the group. Mhorg (talk) 15:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023

Yevgeny Prigozhin is dead 2601:47:4300:B120:E05F:A1DD:B71C:F8C (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 Let's leave it until the dust clears. Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wagner leader

Wagner group leader, Prigozhin killed in Moscow plane crash today so you should put him as (2014-2023) [11]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin on passenger list of plane that crashed HuntersHistory (talk) 18:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023 (2)

Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash and Russia and Russia said so it should you should put (2014-2023) next to his name see reasons in talk. HuntersHistory (talk) 18:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Death is Confirmed

As a close official with the US Military, I can now confirm that he has died. 2601:47:4300:B120:8C53:1F1C:8F80:8FDF (talk) 20:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Yevgneny Prigozhin's wikipedia page also records him as dead but for some reason wikipedia moderators are insisting on, even though it makes wikipedia contradict itself, the information is not clear enough to be considered encyclopedic. Cactus Ronin (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Question about putting the leaders as killed in action.

Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory (talk) 23:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023 (3)

Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

In ‘Activities’: Change ‘ten countries’ to ‘eleven countries’ and then add ‘Venezuela’ to the list of countries that follows. Reason: Venezuela is highlighted in red on the map, showing Wagner group as active there, and there is a section about it further down in this same ‘Activities’ section, so this edit is needed for consistency. Lhollo (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: per WP:CIRCULAR. M.Bitton (talk) 12:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 August 2023 (2)

Incorrect spelling. Change "dessert" to "desert" in the section "Recruitment, training, techniques." The text snippet to change is "fighters who retreat or dessert" Hifear267 (talk) 02:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, @Hifear267. I've gone ahead and fixed it. ArcticSeeress (talk) 03:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Not Ideologically Driven?

The description says that the Wagner Group "is not ideologically driven." This is a highly questionable claim; they clearly do have ideological tendencies, and just because they don't overtly say they have an ideology doesn't mean they aren't driven by underlying beliefs or motives. So this phrasing seems incorrect and confusing. Maybe writing "While the group is not explicitly driven by a single ideology" would be more appropriate. LouMichel (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

No, it’s a bunch of people with different ideologies, there’s monarchists, Nazis, and communists. So no. Napalm Guy (talk) 00:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Ideology isn't just expressly stated political views. If they are driven by greed, there's still an underlying belief system behind that. LouMichel (talk) 00:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Tver Plane Crash

This article references the plane crash that presumably killed Prigozhin and Utkin (details still developing). There is a wikipedia article on this, 2023 Tver plane crash. I propose that it is linked within this article.

The last sentence of the leader/header currently states "On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia, leaving Wagner's leadership structure unclear. It is alleged the plane was shot down by the Russian military." That would be a good place to link it. I can not directly edit the page. If editors with editing rights agree, please do so. LWu22 (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

"It is alleged the plane was shot down by the Russian military". Current statements indicate that it was not shot down but the leading theory is a bomb onboard the plane or other sabotage. This is found in the 2023 Tver plane crash article which quotes United States Department of Defense press secretary Patrick Ryder and The Wall Street Journal. Fanra (talk) 03:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

To more directly address the comment by LWu22, their suggestion appears to be implemented, as the current version has "...Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia,..." with plane crash text linked to 2023 Tver plane crash. - Fanra (talk) 04:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you User:Fanra -LWu22 (talk) 19:22, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2023

In lede: On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia should be changed to On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were killed in a plane crash in Russia or similar now that the aircraft's Aug 23 passenger list have all been confirmed dead. VronaMrk30 (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

British designation as an terrorist group

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-be-declared-terrorist-organization-by-uk-bbc-2023-09-06/ 2A02:3030:817:5622:1:0:436E:368F (talk) 20:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The source says:

Britain is set to declare the Russian mercenary Wagner Group to be a terrorist organisation [...]'

A draft order due to laid before parliament will allow Wagner's assets to be categorised as terrorist property [...]

The order is expected to come into force on Sept. 13

(parts bolded by CiaPan).

So it's in progress. Should be added to the article when it's done by the parliament. --CiaPan (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

While it's not decided by the parliament yet, it actualy is being submitted by the govenrment, and that fact can be reported in the article.
Source: "Russian Wagner Group declared terrorists". Gov.UK. 6 September 2023. Archived from the original on 2023-09-07. Retrieved 8 September 2023.
{{cite web| url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/russian-wagner-group-declared-terrorists| title=Russian Wagner Group declared terrorists| website=Gov.UK| date=6 September 2023| access-date=8 September 2023| archive-url=http://web.archive.org/web/20230907055523/https://www.gov.uk/government/news/russian-wagner-group-declared-terrorists| archive-date=2023-09-07| url-status=live}}
CiaPan (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Going to be debated on Wednesday 13 September: https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2023/september-2023/coming-up-in-the-commons-11-15/ --CiaPan (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 September 2023

Please add "United Kingdom" as a designated terrorist group, per source via https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/06/europe/russia-wagner-group-terrorist-organization-uk-intl/index.html 112.205.176.179 (talk) 04:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Too soon. See the source you linked. --CiaPan (talk) 21:41, 10 September 2023 (UTC).

 Not done: that's not what the source says. M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2023

Change “The Wagner Group is known to have operated in at least eleven countries; Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, Mozambique, Central African Republic, Mali, Libya, Sudan and Madagascar” to “The Wagner Group is known to have operated in at least eleven countries; Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, Mozambique, Central African Republic, Mali, Libya, Venezuela and Madagascar”

Reason: Sudan is listed twice atm. Venezuela is included in the Activities section but is missing from the list of eleven countries. Lhollo (talk) 15:39, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Fixed the Sudan issue. Slatersteven (talk) 15:44, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 16:14, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2023 (2)

Should be mentioned somewhere in the article that they are going back https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-russia-ukraine-putin-progozhin-1828052 Napalm Guy (talk) 22:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)