Talk:Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians

Please also Create an Exodus of Azeris from Karabakh page as well.

Its important to cover both sides of this conflict. Midgetman433 (talk) 15:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you talking about first war? Refugees in Azerbaijan Nemoralis (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, one explicitly for the 700K Refugees from Nagorno Karabakh in the first war. If apparently 120K people can get a whole detailed page, surely 700K Azeris can get an equivalent, rather than 2 paragraphs buried in a subsection on another page, surely the impartial and objective people at wikipedia would not object. Midgetman433 (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

If apparently 120K people can get a whole detailed page, surely the impartial and objective people at wikipedia would not object why would you use this inflamatory tone in such a sensitive article? Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 19:51, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done i've added the info with the interlink as context to the lede of this article. if someone has the time to create/rewrite/rename the article specifically about the azeri refugees from Karabakh fleeing from armenians in the 90-s - feel free to do so Daikido (talk) 20:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

lol, they threw your edit out. Midgetman433 (talk) 10:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It isn't directly relevant to this event, so it has been moved out of the lead, although it is still mentioned in the body of the article and hasn't been thrown out. I'd argue that a specific article for Azerbaijani refugees of the first war should be created, and I absolutely invite you to do so. There isn't a specific group of people at wikipedia with such responsibilities, and, being extended-confirmed, you are just in your right to create such an article as anyone else. Chaotic Enby (talk) 17:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I am joining the others in finding this comment needlessly inflammatory. The exodus of Azeris from Nagorno Karabagh happenned in the early 90s, almost a decade before Wikipedia's creation, whereas this event is currently in the news as we speak, when Wikipedia is more famous than ever. If you see other Wikipedia pages about current events, you would see how much larger they are compared to events that happenned a long time ago and haven't been as studied/aren't as popular with the general public (see for exemple the war in Ukraine, compared to the first Nagorno Karabagh war as a whole). As such, there are many reasons why a dedicated page was not made before, and there is no need to call out the "impartial and objective people at Wikipedia" as if it was on a malicious/biased intent.

With that said, I also join the others in saying such a page would benefit Wikipedia as a whole, and if you are able to you are very much free to make an independant page about it. Evo1726 (talk) 20:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

"If apparently 120K people can get a whole detailed page, surely 700K Azeris can get an equivalent," This reads as you comparing the number of victims to suggest that the ethnic cleansing happening today is less bad than or justified by the ethnic cleansing of the late 20th century, and that I find disgusting. I am going to be charitable here and say that's not your intent, but as Super Dromaeosaurus said, you are using a highly inflammatory and insensitive tone on a very sensitive and touchy article about a current ongoing human tragedy and I ask that you be more careful with your wording going forward.

I agree that the article about refugees in Azerbaijan should be expanded - ask at that article's talk page or do it yourself. Doing it here gives off the impression that you believe it's biased that we are even covering the exodus happening right now. This does not read as a sincere request for the article Refugees in Azerbaijan to be expanded or copyedited.

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:40, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention it has no relevancy to this article and no relation as it happened in 20th century during a compeltely different war and no RS connects it to this, it is covered and mentioned in other Nagorno Karabakh relevant articles. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 07:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Its 30 years(very odd to frame its as "20th century" implying its from a bygone era, when many victims are not even middle aged, "20th century" is about as arbitrary as trying to separate 1999 from 2001 as if they were from different eras)) apart in the exact same place, and arguably the same war and its continuation. Midgetman433 (talk) 10:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The first war refugees from 30 yrs ago are mentioned in many relevant Karabakh articles where RS makes the connection. What reliable sources tie that to this? Completely irrelevant to this article until then. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 10:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

"The first war refugees from 30 yrs ago are mentioned in many relevant Karabakh articles where RS makes the connection."

Ok, and yet there was never a specific page created(btw I'm not against the idea), and if we go by the logic of it being mentioned in other articles so not worth creating, technically this exodus was mentioned 2023 clashes article, so why create a new page then? Midgetman433 (talk) 10:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

First of all, a page exists already Refugees in Azerbaijan. Secondly, nothing you said means this page shouldn't exist, it's a notable event covered by many RS. And third, you're shifting the discussion now.

And as I said, not only there are no RS connecting first war refugees of 30yrs ago to the current influx of refugees from Nagorno Karabakh, the first war refugees were mostly from adjacent territories to NK, not NK itself. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 10:56, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

"Secondly, nothing you said means this page shouldn't exist, it's a notable event covered by many RS."

I didn't say it shouldn't exist, I asked for someone to create one for the Azeri Exodus, the impartial and objective volunteers here don't seem too interested though, that was all I intended to highlight.

"And as I said, not only there are no RS connecting first war refugees of 30yrs ago to the current influx of refugees from Nagorno Karabakh, the first war refugees were mostly from adjacent territories to NK, not NK itself."

"Artsakh" considers the surrounding districts as part of its territory, and passed a resolution to push for the "liberation" of "Akna(Aghdam). furthermore there were 40,000 Azeris from Inside Nagorno Karabakh oblast itself that were displaced. Thats not at all an insignificant amount. Midgetman433 (talk) 15:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

is your use of quotes around artsakh, which i have not seen any other editor do, an indication of negative attitudes towards the existence of that country (i.e., implying it is "so-called")? if so, you would have a conflict of interest and should refrain from participating here JM2023 (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I have no objections for the page existing, what I want equal treatment, people here are far less enthusiastic about covering Azeri matters, when wikipedia itself portrays itself as "balanced" "objective" and "neutral" IMO. I came to the discussion section here to discuss matters first, b/c If I created a page or section, It will undoubtably be deleted, so I started a discussion in hopes that people here "higher up" can create the page. If I'm being honest I think a lot of edits even on this page, mentioning the recent agreement signed by Samvel Shahramanyan with regards to right of return has not been mentioned. for reference: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7F7XLIWsAA8CS9?format=jpg&name=large Other elements which I added regarding interviews from people traveling to Armenia saying that they are planning on returning after the situation is less in flux were also reverted. I get the feeling there is a certain editorial line and anything that doesn't fit into the editorial line is removed. Midgetman433 (talk) 10:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I am in favor of having such an article. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:27, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Repeating what I already said: A specific article for Azerbaijani refugees of the first war should be created, and I absolutely invite you to do so. There isn't a specific group of people at wikipedia with such responsibilities, and, being extended-confirmed, you are just in your right to create such an article as anyone else. We aren't people "higher up" than you, and, provided at least a few sources are given (even just links inside <ref> tags should suffice), I don't think anyone would delete the article.

If you want to be sure there is no issue, you can create it at Draft:Exodus of Azerbaijanis during the First Karabakh War, so you have time to work on it, and look at Wikipedia:Articles for creation for any support you need. Chaotic Enby (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I will expand that article once I finish Stalin's repressions in Azerbaijan Nemoralis (talk) 06:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't "Stalinist" be a better title than "Stalin's"? Stalinist repressions in Mongolia uses it. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 08:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Mongolia was never an SSR of the Soviet Union, whereas Azerbaijan was an SSR of the Soviet Union for its entirety and was even (re-)created during Stalin's rule. Thus Stalin directly ruled Azerbaijan as an internal territory of the USSR, so they were his repressions; while in Mongolia, presumably, they were repressions in the vein of Stalin and hence Stalinist but not Stalin himself. So there is at least some reason to have the inconsistency (but that doesn't mean it is or isn't necessary). JM2023 (talk) 20:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

To be fair, the page Stalinist repressions lists events occuring in the Soviet Union itself, with the Mongolia repressions only under "See also". Chaotic Enby (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Opinion with attribution

What's wrong with Haaretz's characterisation? It wasn't stated in wikivoice and clearly attributed. Alaexis_¿question? 08:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It is opinion article that reflects the author's opinion about a subject. Nemoralis (talk) 11:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

That's right, and so what? Per WP:RSEDITORIAL we cannot use them for statements of fact but we can use them with attribution. Alaexis_¿question? 11:28, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Then use them with attribution :) We should avoid stating opinions as facts. Nemoralis (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Article name

"Exodus" generally refers to a voluntary migration, which is a very inappropriate term to use when this has already been referred to as ethnic cleansing or genocide by a great deal of observers and experts, such as Luis Moreno Ocampo. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 02:51, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

"Exodus" refers to both voluntary and forced migration. Most of the events listed on exodus#Historical events are instances of forced displacement and ethnic cleansing. Currently the event is more commonly referred to as an exodus, which can very well be described as ethnic cleansing but the common name is preferred for article titles. Lightspecs (talk) 04:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

NPOV dispute, The article favors the perspective of an Armenian view point.

The Article here claims that what the Azerbaijani government is doing falls under ethnic cleansing, but this is debatable, the first few sentences of the article begin with "Fears of genocide and ethnic cleansing resulted in over 65,000 having fled by the morning of 28 September". The point is, the naming of this article points it as a fact that ethnic cleansing is happening inside Nagorno-Karabakh, but there are different view points that disagree with this, for example, the Azerbaijani Government has stated that all Armenians can stay inside of the land of Nagorno-Karabakh if they want to and don't have to leave the re-integrated area. Most people in the news are terming this as an Exodus and until it is factually known that the Azerbaijani Government is forcefully asking people to leave the area, that we can claim it as Ethnic cleansing in the article. Wakapoodiaaaa24234 (talk) 05:42, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The Azeri government is not a reliable source, especially not in relation to Armenians (see anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan), and especially not when it contradicts the consensus of reliable sources. We don't cite the Turkish government on the Armenian genocide either because of its consistent genocide denial. JM2023 (talk) 07:47, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

It is not specific to the claims that the Azerbaijani Government is making, but from previously the majority of news sources that term it as an "exodus", and besides, you would need actual evidence to prove Azerbaijan is forcefully making these people leave their homes for it to be called as ethnic cleansing, not foreign analysts who only guess if ethnic cleansing is going on. Wakapoodiaaaa24234 (talk) 08:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Copy-pasted contents from other articles

The entire "Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan" section and most of the "Analysis" section were lazily copy-pasted word-to-word from other articles. These are WP:UNDUE and of questionable relevance to the topic and thus should be removed and replaced with background info and analysis from RS that directly focus on the exodus itself. StellarHalo (talk) 06:51, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

anti-armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan is definitely not WP:UNDUE when the entire reason for the anti-Armenian ethnic cleansing is anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan. The reason for the ethnic cleansing should obviously be in the article about it. And text is copy-pasted between articles all the time, no point in rewriting something every time; it's even an actual editing function called transclusion. JM2023 (talk) 07:44, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing

It seems categorizing this as ethnic cleansing is overstretching. Firstly, an ethnic cleansing is forceful. Here the're leaving voluntarily and have an option to stay. Judging by news sources, this accusation comes solely from the Armenian side and is not corroborated by third-party sources. Per WP:REDFLAG, some robust sources and evidence is needed to categorize this as ethnic cleansing. The situation is basically migration due to perceived unfavorable conditions, similar to ongoing African migration to Europe and elsewhere. Brandmeister^talk 09:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)