Talk:Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion

Requested move 17 October 2023

The result of the move request was: Not moved. WP:SNOW not likely to pass. (non-admin closure) Ecrusized (talk) 19:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

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Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist Hospital airstrike → Al Ahli Hospital massacre – This is a massacre commited by Israelies and it is confirmed by many outlets and reiable sources. so why is it called a regular airstrike and the writer says it is not confirmed? ☆SuperNinja2☆ 18:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Maybe because we don't know the circumstances yet, it's entirely possible that it was a munitions depot and hence a military target. 81.174.167.150 (talk) 18:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

It is also enterily possible that this was a Disney Land park resort in disguise. But it doesn't seem so. Theklan (talk) 19:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Think you are jumping the gun here, wait a bit for some more info to come in, then we will see. Selfstudier (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Circumstances still disputed. It would be better to call it a "bombing" until the confirmation of mode/cause of attack. -UtoD 18:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. THere are no reliable sources called it a massacre. A3811 (talk) 19:05, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Question: Will you still want to call it a "massacre" if it is confirmed to have been a failed Hamas rocket? Ksperber (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose For the moment, the info regarding the bombing is Hamas' word versus the Israeli government's, with neither exactly having neutral motivations; as such, WP:NPOV applies until we can get some kind of independent media confirmation regarding the circumstances and casualties. The Kip 18:37, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Anyone object if this is closed for now? It is too early to make judgements on the title.Selfstudier (talk) 18:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

oppose closure ☆SuperNinja2☆ 19:00, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I support your proposal. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 18:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Note I hope you will not deal with double standards and look at the reality. Most of the dead were children and women, and this can be verified through the largest international and impartial news sites. The hospital was not bombed, but rather the hospital courtyard where hundreds of civilians fleeing the war slept was bombed? How can the article be described as an air strike!!!! On the other hand, in articles devoted to what Hamas carried out in Israeli villages, it was described as a massacre!! Please change the name of the article to Al Ahli Hospital massacre.--— Osama Eid ^(talk) 18:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@ User:Osps7, do you support or oppose the move? ☆SuperNinja2☆ 19:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I support moving the article to Ahli Hospital massacre — Osama Eid ^(talk) 19:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@Super ninja2: Do you mind closing this? Selfstudier (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

You don't have the right to close this so early so stop! ☆SuperNinja2☆ 19:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see an issue with it, consensus is pretty firmly against the move for the moment. The Kip 19:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Far too early to be renaming, when even the fact of an airstrike is currently in dispute. Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, as noted by others above, far too soon. Wikishovel (talk) 19:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. AryKun (talk) 19:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: Too soon to determine, given uncertain nature of casualty count. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 19:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Note for those who are saying that it is disputed, it's not ☆SuperNinja2☆ 19:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

A Gaza civil defence chief said... A Gaza Health Ministry source said... Both departments are under the Hamas-run government.

Hamas' government is not a reliable source regarding the war, nor is the IDF. That's why it's considered disputed. Be careful not to approach the point of WP:BLUDGEONing. The Kip 19:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, your source only says what Hamas says. How does that support it is not disputed? Israel claims it was a misfired rocket fired by Hamas - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 19:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

It says IDF is "ironing out the details" whatever that means. Selfstudier (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Honestly it would be better to close this and continue the discussion at the new RM, we can't have two RM at the same time. Selfstudier (talk) 19:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose clearly this won't get support and there is a more relevant RM below. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  It is closed ftb, although this may get SNOW closed if the oppose votes continue to mount. Selfstudier (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose — Airstrike not a massacre. Wording is appropriate. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - How many more "opposes" before someone gets a clue and SNOW closes this NPOV silliness? -- Veggies (talk) 19:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2023

Change "killing over 500 civilians" to "resulting in over 500 casualties" per the source article. Xofg (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Gotcha. The Kip 18:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@The Kip: This was undone during an edit conflict, it has since been restored. Ecrusized (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

While Hamas claims that the cause of the airstrike was Israel, Israel claims that the cause was a Hamas missile bound for the Tel Aviv region, but had accidentally hit the hospital. Please include both claims in the article and give each claim due weight. Source: https://www.srugim.co.il/853287-%D7%A8%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A1-%D7%A4%D7%92%D7%A2%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A2%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A0%D7%A4 2A0D:6FC0:6B8:EB00:8CE7:C9CC:21D7:AF80 (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said an initial investigation shows the explosion in Gaza’s hospital was caused by a failed Hamas rocket launch, i24NEWS reported.

Must have been a big rocket, I guess. Selfstudier (talk) 18:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Added claim; dubious, but notable nonetheless. AryKun (talk) 18:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: i24NEWS is an Israeli propaganda outlet controlled by Isreali state. They first lied about “40 beheaded babies” now this. I have concerns about the credibility of i24NEWS due to past reporting It cannot be used as a reliable source.223.123.90.61 (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, I would still prefer to wait a bit. There's no rush. Selfstudier (talk) 19:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

1) The claim about "40 beheaded babies" was never actually made. It was a conflation of two comments made in close proximity to each other, one about "40 babies," one about "beheading." There is no actual source for your claim of anyone actually uttering this initial alleged "lie."

2) "i24NEWS is . . . owned by Isreali [sic] state" {citation needed} Ksperber (talk) 19:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

NPOV tag and explanation

I want to make it clear I am not taking either side of the conflict here; rather I simply feel an NPOV tag is justified, as the following circumstances are currently true:

• An explosion hit the hospital and caused a mass casualty event.

• Hamas' government claims it was an Israeli airstrike.

• The Israeli government claims it was a misfired Hamas rocket.

• Independent press have thus far not verified either claim; notice that article titles/intros/etc end with ", [Hamas/Palestinian government/Israel/IDF/etc] claims."

• The article seemingly asserts Hamas' claim.

• Therefore, the article, given the current circumstances, violates NPOV to a degree.

Once more reputable reports regarding who's responsible come out, I'd be happy to remove the NPOV tag; the problem is that as the article stands, the cause is in dispute, and it's not our role to adjudicate that dispute. The Kip 18:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if the Israeli government has claimed that Hamas is responsible yet, but labelling Israel as the definitive attacker is definitely speculative at this point. Emkut7 (talk) 18:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

"BREAKING: Initial investigation by IDF shows explosion in hospital in Gaza was caused by a failed Hamas rocket launch

— i24NEWS English (@i24NEWS_EN) October 17, 2023"

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1714348101748559883?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw Ksperber (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian is also now stating initial reports of Israel accusing Hamas of the attack.

Still not decisive enough to link an actual perpetrator, but definitely enough to warrant putting both at the moment until further evidence and reports come out. Emkut7 (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

100% correct. This Wikipedia article states as fact that an Israeli airstrike hit the hospital when that is absolutely not independently confirmed at this time. This is not up to Wikipedia's aspirational standards of factual accuracy and objectivity. Ksperber (talk) 18:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The Kip, please check now; Israeli claims have been worked into the article sufficiently, I think. AryKun (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Initially both Reuters and AP were calling it an Israeli airstrike, but now the news reports have been updated and are calling it a blast. However some reports, including CNN[1] are calling it an airstrike. Too early to tell. Ecrusized (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Not my point; if both Israeli and Gazan claims on the cause are mentioned in the article's lead, the NPOV tag isn't justified. AryKun (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

It is actually because the title assumes an airstrike. Selfstudier (talk) 19:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Reworded the first two sentences. AryKun (talk) 19:07, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. The opening paragraph still states unequivocally that the blast was caused by an Israeli airstrike and further states that the casualties are the result of that Israeli airstrike. Those factual claims are unestablished/unverified at this time. Ksperber (talk) 19:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Owing to massive cleanup of the article, I've removed the NPOV tag. Good job, folks. The Kip 19:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Massacre

Categories relating to massacres have been removed. Please do not add them without reliable sources calling the airstrike a massacre. A3811 (talk) 19:09, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

October 2023

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Having two RM at the same time is not allowed. Please close this. Selfstudier (talk) 19:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I was under the impression the initial one was on the verge of a SNOWclose, if not closed already. The Kip 19:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Obvious support given the uncertainty. If reliable sources can't agree on what it was, we shouldn't make an article that implicitly espouses a certain view. -- Veggies (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support there has been no reliable sources confirming that the incident was a result of an airstrike. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 17 October 2023

Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist Hospital airstrike → Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist Hospital explosion – Reopening this after first RM was SNOWclosed. Similar rationale to NPOV tag explanation above. Reuters and AP have switched over to calling it a "blast" rather than an airstrike, and the actual cause of the explosion is in dispute between Hamas and the IDF's accusations, with no independent press verifying either claim yet. Happy to cancel this request or reverse the move whenever the fog of war lifts on the cause. The Kip 19:37, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Obvious support given the uncertainty. If reliable sources can't agree on what it was, we shouldn't make an article that implicitly espouses a certain view. -- Veggies (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support there has been no reliable sources confirming that the incident was a result of an airstrike. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment — Oh shoot. I did not realize this RM was started. I moved the article to explosion as the more neutral word, used by western media, Israel, and Hamas. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  If RSes are already using it, I've got no issue with the solo move. Lines up with NPOV anyhow. The Kip 19:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  I am OK with that, for now. We shouldn't need an RM for the obvious (currently). Selfstudier (talk) 19:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Explosion should be an uncontroversial move. Does not require a discussion. Ecrusized (talk) 19:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The clear right choice until the cause is determined. No problem with the move. Penitentes (talk) 19:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Claimed by...

The "Claimed by Hamas" should be changed to "Claimed by Gaza", as it is a claim done by the Gaza Health Ministry. Theklan (talk) 19:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The GHM is a part of the Hamas-run government. The Kip 19:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)