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To summarize as best I can, while Peranakan was originally restricted to the descendants of Chinese immigrants, it is no longer used exclusively for them but for descendants of other immigrant populations as well. The article as currently structured still focuses primarily on the more limited group. So we are trying to figure out how to deal with this.
To summarize as best I can, while Peranakan was originally restricted to the descendants of Chinese immigrants, it is no longer used exclusively for them but for descendants of other immigrant populations as well. The article as currently structured still focuses primarily on the more limited group. So we are trying to figure out how to deal with this.


One possible resolution that has come up repeatedly is moving the page to a more restrictive title such as the ones listed above.
⚫
One possibility that has been suggested is to move the page to a more restrictive title such as the ones suggested above. I'm not saying a move is mandatory, other resolutions have been proposed such as expanding the current article to avoid issues with undue weight instead. However I wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion and try to solicit more outside input from the community. Happy to hear everyone's thoughts.

⚫
This is not an attempt to foreclose on other possible resolutions that have come up such as expanding the current article to avoid issues with undue weight instead. I just wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion and try to solicit more outside input from the community. I'm happy to hear out everyone's thoughts on this and welcome alternative suggestions both for potential move destinations and alternative resolutions that do not require a move.


===Survey===
===Survey===

Revision as of 04:15, 6 January 2024

earlier comment

(I deleted the tag about Feature Article Candidacy on July 11, 2006) Clayoquot 06:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disputable Text

The last paragraph in this article contains a disputable sentence: "In Singapore, the Peranakans are classified as ethnically Chinese by government policies, and because second language instruction (so-called "Mother Tongue") is decided based on ethnicity, this requires them to learn Mandarin Chinese instead of Malay in formal education."

There's a NPOV problem with this article, based on my attempts to verify this statement. While I am not Singaporean, my spouse is, my in-laws live there, I visit there frequently, so I have plenty of opportunities to ask questions. They tell me they know Chinese students who learn Malay, or Malay and Indian who learn Chinese as a 2nd language. Based on this admittedly empirical evidence, I doubt the Singapore government mandates a specific 2nd language based on bureaucratically perceived ethnicity. Can someone cite a regulation verifying the disputed statement as fact? Amatulic 00:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[Don't forget your race in Singapore is defined by the race of your father. So if a Malay man marries a Chinese woman, their children will be Malay. But if the father's sister marries the wife's brother, the cousins will be considered Chinese. ]


Clarification: Singapore does have a "Mother Tongue" program in which one must learn a 2nd language; however the language evidently isn't restricted by government-assigned ethnicity. Parents have a choice of what 2nd language their children will take as a "Mother Tongue." The choices are limited, however; primarily Mandarin, Malay, and Tamil, and perhaps some others. Therefore, The sentence quoted above appears incorrect. Peranakans aren't required to learn Mandarain Chinese. They can if they want to. The point is, even if they learned Malay, it's still not not Baba Malay, so the Baba Malay disappears due to unavailability and not some racial/political/economic conspiracy. I suspect that, because a Peranakan child already speaks Malay and will be speaking English in school, a parent would logically and voluntarily enroll their child in Mandarin classes to enhance the child's skills and opportunities later in life. Amatulic 04:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Unless the language policy changed very recently, I believe the current version of the article is correct. Singaporean birth certificates have a "race" category, with a child's racial category inherited from the father. Children of Peranakan males are thus officially classified as ethnically Chinese, and are required to learn their "mother tongue" in school. The official Mother Tongue policy designates mother tongue based on race, not on what language is actually spoken in the home. Students may elect to take Malay or Tamil as a second language, but they are required to study Mandarin.
It is quite likely also the case that some Peranakan parents want to have their children learn Mandarin.
I'll try to find some primary sources for the Mother Tongue policy, but in the meantime some secondary and tertiary sources are here: [1] [2] [3] [4]. You're right that this kind of statement does need citations. Clayoquot 06:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Featured Article Status

This article should be removed as a "featured article" candidate until the following NPOV problems are addressed in the last paragraph:

  • The statement "The disappearance of Peranakan culture is largely due to racial politics and economics brought about by nationalism in Singapore and Malaysia" -- sounds like an opinion. If culture and langauge are closely linked, and the language is disappearing because it isn't taught in schools, then it's logical that the culture will disappear also. The unavailability of Baba Malay language lessons hardly qualifies as "racial politics and economics brought about by nationalism." I see no citation to support this claim.
  • Implying that Peranakans would prefer not to assimilate: "Peranakans feel pressured to assimilate back into the mainstream Chinese culture in both countries." Where did this factoid come from?
  • The phrase "second language instruction (so-called 'Mother Tongue') is decided based on ethnicity" is false. Cite a government regulation.
  • The phrase "requires them to learn Mandarin Chinese instead of Malay in formal education" is false, or requires a citation. It seems more likely that the parents are voluntarily having their children learn Chinese.

Amatulic 04:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the "Featured Article candidate" tag from this page. It not currently a candidate and I can't even find any record of it in Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations from February 2006. Clayoquot 05:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree citations need to be provided for these statements, even though this article is currently in no danger of gaining featured article status. I don't think that the third and fourth bullet points are false - see my comment above. Clayoquot 06:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're correct, my 3rd and 4th bullets above are wrong. I have since found a couple of articles about Singapore's Mother Tongue Policy, and I now agree that Peranakans are classified as ethnic Chinese and are required to learn Mandarin. I have also added an external link to the Mother Tongue policy at the bottom of the article.
Nevertheless, that last paragraph in the article sounds like a conspiracy theory, and the phrasing seems layered with emotion. I propose the following as a more NPOV replacement for the last paragraph:
Peranakan culture is disappearing. Without colonial British support for their perceived racial neutrality, government policies in both countries following independence from the British have resulted in the assimilation of Peranakans back into the mainstream Chinese culture. In Singapore, the Peranakans are classified as ethnically Chinese, so they receive formal instruction in Mandarin Chinese as a second language (in accordance with the "Mother Tongue Policy") instead of Malay. In Malaysia, the standardization of Malay as Bahasa Melayu - required for all ethnic groups - has led to a disappearance of the unique characteristics of Baba Malay.
Amatulic 17:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds great to me. Go for it :) Clayoquot 17:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Done! Amatulic 20:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Date of presenting princess to sultan

Does ‘+/-’ of “+/-1459 AD” in section Language mean “approximately” ? If so, then it is non-standard usage, and also contrary to the wikipedia style guide for dates: see last paragraph of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Years.2C_decades.2C_and_centuries for how to rewrite it.

Was Hang Li Poh was a real princess?

was Hang Li Poh really a daughter of the Chinese emperor, or was she just a daughter of an influential Chinese merchant as some claimed?

there is absolutely no Ming dynasty records of the bethrohal of a chinese princess to a malay sultan.

would the chinese emperor actually present his daughter to the head of a tiny protecteorate of his?

There are no evidence to support that Hang Li Poh is a real Ming dynasty princess. One theory that I came across that there is a possibility that Hang Li Poh may be one of the Ming emperor's female servant. --Jeblat (talk) 06:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a racistic article written by Singaporean Chinese chauvinists

It completely ignores the fact that the Peranakan are of mixed ancestry: part Chinese, part Malay and part descended from the (non-Malay) original inhabitants of Singapore Island. In other words, they are not Chinese who betrayed their Chinese heritage, or any rubbish like that. See, for example, http://www.colorq.org/MeltingPot/Asia/Peranakan.htm.

A revision is very much in order.

Ojevindlang 21:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pernakan

This is a term coined by the Chinese themselves. It has no connotation in modern or archiac Indonesian or Javanese as being anything other than "descendent". The term can be used for any kind of decedent- for example peranakan Belanda, peranakan Madura. Secondly, "baba" is not Melayu or Indonesian, it is Arabic- fromthe most vulgar level of market speech. The Indonesian and Malaysian term is asli. I shall amend the article to reflect these linguistic accuracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starstylers (talk • contribs) 14:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

=Reasons for Reversion to My edit

I argue the User:Starstylers) edit is the superior of the two versions. It was reverted by User:Kulikah who cited a form of Ad_hominen argument referring to past infractions which have no history of repetition. I argue the original article was not nuetral as per WP:NPOV and WP:NEU. The original article was also WP:V, WP:VERIFY/WP:SOURCE. Thus the original unreferenced version could be argued as WP:OR, WP:NOR. It had NO references from any text and relied on website references. Thus it did not adhere to WP:RS, WP:RELY, WP:RELIABLE. I am more than pleased to resolve any contentious issues via mutual discussion, and consensus in the spirit of WP:CON, WP:CONS. I think we all can work together to write a noteworthy article, that perhaps feature one day. PS- I was not the one who wrote about Racialism- that was another user- you can see above- it was just my sloppy wiki syntax Starstylers (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Peranakan ancestry

On one hand, it says Peranakan order bride from China but at the same time, it is also said Peranankan have Malay blood in them since they marry local native women in Malaysia. This is contradicting. So does Peranakan mostly have more Chinese blood or Malay blood? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShanghaiWu (talk • contribs) 08:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The peranakan people is the result of mix-marriages between the Chinese people and (more accurately) Austronesian peoples of the Malay archipelago. The subsequent generation would normally marry another peranakan; a tradition strongly held especially during colonial time period and to a certain extend until the 1970s. It is also common for wealthy peranakans at that time to marry their own relatives in order to prevent their wealth from passing to "outsiders". Cases of peranakans marrying or so-called "ordering" (which I cannot confirm if such "transaction" did took place among the peranakans and if it did, it is not common) brides from China would most likely occur when the peranakan family have relatives in China and still maintain a close relationship with them. --Jeblat (talk) 12:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Kiauseng is not synonymous to Peranakan

As a part of community who speaks Creole Baba-Hokkien who uses the term, I want to emphasise that ‘Kiauseng’ is not synonymous to ‘Peranakan’. It is an ‘exonym’ labelled for people outside the Baba-Hokkien speaking community in Eastern coasts Sumatra. Kiau (Qiao/侨) + seng (shen/生) refers to Hokkiau + Folks. The term Kiauseng is not used by Penang Peranakans who refer themselves as Huan-Peng Lang. The term is used in Medan, North Sumatra, to refer to foreign Non-Mainland Chinese who did not assimilate to Hokkien Peranakan Patois spoken by the old communities in Northern Malaya and Sumatra. Most of Medanese elders would agree that Kiauseng is not the same as Peranakan or Babanyonya, as Medanese has its own babanyonya communities in the past. A lot of ‘Hokkienised’ term such as Hokkiau and Tionghoa are not used and were not use colloquially by Hokkien speaking communities. Most of people often labelled as Kiauseng are people of usually 3rd-4th generation who do not even exhibit old creolised Hokkien-Malay culture, but instead displaying Orde Baru forced-assimilation identity. Most kiauseng people do not speak creolised patois, but only borrowed Hokkien lingo from Batavian, Sundanese and Javanese peranakans. In short Kiauseng are fully assimilated Chinese in Nusantara. You will tend to find old Peranakan communities in Java to be more Chinese than Kiauseng-s. Thus in the spirit of multiculturalism vs assimilation, I do not think that Kiauseng-s are Peranakan. They don’t speak a uniquely Peranakan/Creole Patois and they don’t display uniquely Peranakan/Creole culture or behaviour. 120.21.9.146 (talk) 10:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peranakan

Peranakan term actually it originally from Malacca means "Kacukan/Mix" in between bloods or culture , Why the tittle put Peranakan? Peranakan and Chinese Peranakan (Baba&Nyonya) are two different things ! Example : Peranakan 1.Baba&Nyonya 2.Chetty 3.Kristang

4.Eurasia 5.Samsam 6.Jawi peranakan/Mamak

Peranakan origin from Malacca and has two major spread to Penang and Singapore . 1. Penang > Southern Thailand > Bangkok

2. Singapore > Riau Islands > Java Islands 2402:1980:2A3:FD3D:0:0:0:1 (talk) 00:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Peranakan not only chinese

Kindly refer the term of Peranakan in Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka.

It come from malay word and not only consits of chinese ancestry but it is wide term

Definition: 1. descendants of a country's child and a foreigner:; 2. born in: young people ~ Melaka; 3. uterus (where the baby is in the stomach), womb: pain

Do refer to https://prpm.dbp.gov.my/Cari1?keyword=peranakan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visnu92 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed trim

User:Visnu92, User:Bennv123, User:Shirt58, opening this discussion regarding the proposed trim. I think it would be best if those in favor of the trim would explain their concerns with the current sourcing. Please feel free to ping anyone I may have missed who has been involved in this dispute. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:4D61:46E2:1501:4B6F (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Megat Lanang, who was recently blocked for 48 hours for similar edits, should be pinged too. Bennv123 (talk) 03:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request

Two changes should be made:

  1. The hatnote is nonsensical - "This article is about This article is about Peranakan,a term used to describe descendants of a country child and a foreigner." makes no sense. It should be "This article is about Peranakan, a term used to describe descendants of a country child and a foreigner."
  2. The short description starts with a lowercase character, which is against the short description guidelines. It should start with a capital letter. Suntooooth, it/he (talk/contribs) 16:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Erledigt * Pppery * it has begun... 18:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"descendants of a country child" sounds a bit weird, don't you think so?
Also, the intro paragraph doesn't say anything about Chinese Peranakans at all. This happened after Megat Lanang and Visnu did whatever they did. FikkuFiq 16:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since I don't know anything about the topic, my edit request was mostly focused on obvious style errors - this article does seem very messy though. Suntooooth, it/he (talk/contribs) 17:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should we transfer the 'lost' information into another article?

Since the edit war, about 100,000 bytes of contents — which is largely about Chinese Peranakan people — is gone from this article. Should we create a new page for Chinese Peranakans and put the now missing information there and retain this original one as the page for various Peranakan people and link it? FikkuFiq 16:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Fikku fiq, that would be a cut and paste move which is not allowed. The correct way to go about that would be to restore the article, which is what will happen if there is no consensus for the trim above anyway, and start an WP:RM. There is still a problem in that multiple cut & past moves have been attempted to different titles so any proposal may fail, not because people do not wish the page moved, but because the specific proposal does not get a majority resulting in a second or even third RM as individual proposals do not find consensus, I will inquire about procedure to see if open-ended RMs are allowed which may be a better way forward. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:4183:4CE1:8C4D:3DA9 (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am unsure if the two different disputes have been related. At any rate, this is the pre edit-war article. The argument seems to be that the title does not apply, in which case the solution is an WP:RM, not an almost-blanking. CMD (talk) 01:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are of a similar nature, which is about the term "Peranakan". The pre-edit article on the whole referred to Chinese Peranakan/Baba Nyonya people, so when it comes to the title, Megat Lanang and Visnu's POV was, I think, correct, but like what you said, it should just have been a page move (from Peranakan to Chinese Peranakan) rather than a major blanking.
It is also not helped by the fact that based on what I know about Visnu, he does have a certain biased view, and I can't help to wonder if what he did was also motivated by that (even if he was somewhat correct when it comes to the title). FikkuFiq 08:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are different weights to usage. Many people do just use "Peranakan" when referring to Chinese Peranakans, especially in English. The only source cited so far for the change is a Malay dictionary entry. Either way, this should be dealt with at an RM, and if there is a general page that is anything more than a disambiguation there should be sources specifically for that generic term. CMD (talk) 08:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's true. The Baba Nyonya Museum in Malacca also refers to the Chinese Peranakans. And a source that I read from Singapore also largely gears towards the Chinese-based community although it does state that not all Peranakans are Chinese. I guess now we can go both ways, although since this is the English Wikipedia and noting the general and international view of who the Peranakans are, the pre-edit article would not be out of place. Maybe we should have a page to list down the various kinds of Peranakans and leave this to refer to the Chinese Peranakans. FikkuFiq 08:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We would need to create those other articles before we could create a list or SIA. Another option might be just to broaden the focus of the existing content, though that might make it too bloated. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:811B:92A6:AA8C:E001 (talk) 15:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, the previous edits in this current Peranakan article should be restored and the title of the article changed to "Straits-born Chinese" (which I feel is much accurate, as how the older generation of English-speaking Peranakans would say it) or "Chinese Peranakan". This is because there were older edits that are tied to other earlier discussions in this article's Talk page. Then a new Peranakan article should be created to accommodate the general Peranakan subject as can be seen now. Although the term Peranakan generally refers to Peranakan of Chinese heritage, I suspect it is partly due to a larger population/presence in comparison to the other strains of Peranakans. But as of this moment, I think this is the appropriate solution. -Jeblat (talk) 18:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The other articles are already available so I don't think there's a problem in that. To put all in one article would indeed make it too bloated.
I do agree with Jeblat that we should return to the pre-edit war article, move it, and then create a new article as a general list (which is somewhat what the article is currently is). FikkuFiq 23:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We would first need sources about the general use to create a new page, but pinging Ymblanter on consensus that the raised dispute about the pre-edit war version should be resolved with an RM rather than with blanking as happened. CMD (talk) 01:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Protection is only for one more day. No one in favor of the trim has commented on the talk page yet, and while we have to set some deadline so discussions do not sit interminably, there may yet be someone who wants the trim who has not yet had an opportunity to comment. True Vishnu92 was the only editor to trim the page, but allowing another 24 hours for an opportunity to weigh in seems reasonable, after all some people are busy IRL. A full seven days seems like a fair compromise between the need to resolve things eventually, and the need to give everyone an opportunity to participate. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:2997:D11A:B16B:FCC0 (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion doesn't stop by going back to the status quo ante, especially when that reversion to the stable version is mentioned alongside opening a new discussion. Nothing is being compromised in any direction. CMD (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:2997:D11A:B16B:FCC0 (talk) 02:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the page per above to restore the content that disappeared through the various WP:CUTPASTE moves. A shift should be handled through an WP:RM to determine if it is appropriate. CMD (talk) 01:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 January 2024

Peranakans → ? – Multiple possible titles have been suggested both directly in discussion and indirectly through attempted c&p moves. Should we move this page, if so where? 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:BDC2:D617:CAB6:BBF1 (talk) 04:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended explanation

I'm probably missing a few, but at the very least Chinese Peranakan, Baba dan Nyonya, Straits-born Chinese, and Baba-Nyonya have all been suggested as possibilities. I'm trying to keep this open-ended so feel free to suggest additional alternatives in the survey.

To summarize as best I can, while Peranakan was originally restricted to the descendants of Chinese immigrants, it is no longer used exclusively for them but for descendants of other immigrant populations as well. The article as currently structured still focuses primarily on the more limited group. So we are trying to figure out how to deal with this.

One possible resolution that has come up repeatedly is moving the page to a more restrictive title such as the ones listed above.

This is not an attempt to foreclose on other possible resolutions that have come up such as expanding the current article to avoid issues with undue weight instead. I just wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion and try to solicit more outside input from the community. I'm happy to hear out everyone's thoughts on this and welcome alternative suggestions both for potential move destinations and alternative resolutions that do not require a move.

Survey

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