Talk:Ludovico III Gonzaga, Marquis of Mantua

Sourced

Source for Ludovico II Gonzaga is explicitly mentioned. --Attilios (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The source must be in English, or referenced by an English language source. Otherwise, all sorts of misinformation could be inserted, with most WP editors being unable to judge whether the sources were valid. IronDuke 22:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Children

The last sentences of the section need reworking - change of tense, and slightly informal. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Speculative Commentary?

How is a novel, whether a historical novel or not, considered a viable reference source? Wouldn't that make the comment at the end of the summary on Ludovico's children simply the speculations of a novelist? The source in question is Marie Ferranti, The Princess of Mantua. Hesperus Press, 2005. Stevenmitchell (talk) 03:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Barbara of Brandenburg

The second paragraph under the Biography heading states that Ludovico III's consort Barbara of Brandenburg was 'the niece of the Emperor Sigismund'. She was not, and the source given does not in fact say that she was. Their actual closest relationship was second cousin three times removed, which can be verified here. 2A00:23C5:4409:3600:2C0A:18F5:3476:5019 (talk) 08:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 January 2024

• Ludovico III Gonzaga, Marquis of Mantua → Ludovico III Gonzaga
• Gianfrancesco I Gonzaga, Marquess of Mantua → Gianfrancesco I Gonzaga
• Federico I Gonzaga, Marquess of Mantua → Federico I Gonzaga
• Francesco II Gonzaga, Marquess of Mantua → Francesco II Gonzaga
• Federico II Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Federico II Gonzaga
• Francesco III Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Francesco III Gonzaga
• Guglielmo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Guglielmo Gonzaga
• Vincenzo I Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Vincenzo I Gonzaga
• Francesco IV Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Francesco IV Gonzaga
• Ferdinando Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Ferdinando Gonzaga
• Vincenzo II Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua → Vincenzo II Gonzaga
• Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and Montferrat → Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga

– Same as with the recently concluded Alfonso IV d'Este, Duke of Modena→Alfonso IV d'Este (and other Estes) move. These men have unambiguous names and so the office titles are just bloat, like having Keith Holyoake, Prime Minister of New Zealand instead of plain Keith Holyoake. This, of course, is reflected in the WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE policy. Also note that we already have clean, concise titles for many Gonzaga rulers: Francesco I Gonzaga, Ludovico II Gonzaga, Guido Gonzaga, Ludovico I Gonzaga. Surtsicna (talk) 15:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose: This is not a job description, it is a noble title. Per WP: NCPEER: ""Personal name, Ordinal (if appropriate) Peerage title". And before you start suggesting it applies only to British, please note: "Treat other European nobility like British nobility above, adapting for local circumstances; thus Philippe II, Duke of Orléans." Gonzaga lords are commonly known with their titles, as other Italian, French, etc. lords.

The three Gonzagas you cite above as examples did not have noble titles - or rather, they were "Lords of Gonzaga", but had no other noble title beyond that, so not sure why you'd expect them to or find that astonishing. "Gonzaga" is their noble title, and implied by the article title already. Otherwise they were capitano del popolo, which is a job. But Marquis & Duke is not a job, it is a noble title. And per WP:NCPEER should to be included.

Moreover, they are often referred to simply as "Duke of Mantua" without mentioning Gonzaga, e.g. Duke Frederick II of Mantua, Ferdinand of Mantua, etc., whereas the reverse is hardly every the case (no mention of "Frederick II Gonzaga" without also mentioning on the same line he is also "Duke of Mantua"). So the "Duke of Mantua" is part of their WP:COMMONNAME

Finally, there are many branches of the Gonzaga family in other fiefs, not only in Italy, but also France, whose names & numberings are often repeated and all over the place. e.g.

• Gonzaga of Guastalla
• Gonzaga of Novellara,
• Gonzaga of Luzzara,
• Gonzaga of Castiglione,
• Gonzaga of Sabbioneta
• Louis de Gonzague, Duke of Nevers & other Gonzaga Dukes of Nevers
• Gonzaga Dukes of Rethel
• Gonzaga Dukes of Mayenne

And more besides those.

It is helpful to know which Gonzaga lord is being referred, rather than assuming that our readers have memorized the genealogical tables across multiple fiefs and countries. Keeping the "Duke of Mantua" (or Marquis of Mantua, or Duke of Nevers, or Duke of Rethel, etc.) in the title is not only policy per WP:NCPEER, it is WP:COMMONNAME and useful and helpful to readers. The proposal just causes confusion and ambiguity. Walrasiad (talk) 18:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:NCPEER was written 15 years ago by two users without community input. If your interpretation of it is correct, then it contradicts policy; and I am not convinced that it is correct.

You are implying that there is an ambiguity though there is none: the name Ludovico III Gonzaga refers to one man and one man only, and each of the other names proposed here is just as unambiguous. That is why all other Wikipedias are content with just their names, without ducal titles. The name Ludovico III Gonzaga is as unproblematic as Ludovico II Gonzaga, with which you seem to have no problem because of his lower rank. This is obviously about wanting royals to have titles as grand possible. Surtsicna (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Ludovico/Louis Gonzaga is a frequent name for Dukes & lords of many different fiefs in Italy & France. "III" is for genealogists. Wikipedia readers looking for Ludovico/Louis Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua (or Duke of Nevers, or Duke of whatever) they might read in their sources, would not necessarily know which duke this article referring to (or if a duke at all). Walrasiad (talk) 20:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The numerals are not for genealogists. The numerals are commonly, if not invariably, used in reference works, biographies, journal articles, etc, discussing these men in any level of detail. It is as clear who Ludovico III Gonzaga is as it is clear who Ludovico II Gonzaga is. It is Wikipedia's policy that Wikipedia titles should be recognizable to those who are familiar with the subject. It is against Wikipedia policy to define the subject in the article title for the sake of those who have never heard of the subject. That is what the lead sentence is for. Surtsicna (talk) 21:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The numbers you're using above are genealogist numbers. Which is why you didn't catch that the earlier Gonzagas are mere captains of the people. It entirely depends on the original book author - whether they're tracking Gonzaga genealogy, or if it is a more general work, where such numbers don't matter or follow title/ducal numbering of that fief. In some works it is Ludovico Gonzaga, Duke of Nevers, in others it is Ludovico IV. French historians use one, art historians another. Similarly some works use Charles III of Mantua-Montferrat, others use Ferdinand Carlo Gonzaga. I'd prefer not to impose one particular numbering structure over another, because I don't know where our readers are coming from. Readers shouldn't have to be familiar with Gonzaga genealogical numbering to find articles they're looking for. Keeping "Duke of Mantua" in article title helps disambiguate and make the article more recognizable.

Article titles have to stand alone and need to be recognizable without context. These ducal titles are part of their WP:COMMONNAME. Alle sources use their noble title when they introduce these figures, they never refer to these names without it (as you want to do, for some mystifying reason). We should be trying to help Wikipedia readers find what they're looking for, not make it more difficult. Walrasiad (talk) 22:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The suggestion that there are multiple, competing numbering schemes is incorrect and misleading: Ludovico IV Gonzaga is never called by any other number. There is no other Ludovico IV Gonzaga so the argument that keeping "Duke of Mantua" in the title helps disambiguate is meaningless: it serves no disambiguation purpose when there is no ambiguity. And even if the reader somehow comes from a source that does not use a numeral to distinguish Ludovico IV Gonzaga from Ludovico III Gonzaga (highly unlikely), he or she will not be able to find the correct article by just typing in "Ludovico Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua" anyway - because that title is ambiguous. Again, "Duke of Mantua" adds nothing and you are consciously peddling a false interpretation of recognizability.

It is demonstrably untrue that "all sources use their noble titles when they introduce these figures" and that "they never refer to these names without it". It only takes the briefest search at Google Books oder Google Scholar to disprove it. And one may make the same argument about any officeholder, that they are frequently mentioned along with the office they held. The proposed names absolutely can stand alone, as they do in all other Wikipedias and in reference works, journal articles, biographies, etc. Surtsicna (talk) 22:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Then you should go inside those books and articles. As then you'll notice the Mantua context is clearly given, or they are not referring to this person at all, but rather to an art piece that happens to be entitled "Portrait of Louis III Gonzaga" and the like. Among lists of paintings, statues, medallions, where there are heaploads of unrecognizable names of sitting subjects, without clarification if the subject depicted is a lord or a burgher or a peasant, as only the artist is being discussed. This is not an article about a painting. This is an article about a person. And wherever that person is being introduced, that he is Duke of Mantua is clearly noted. Walrasiad (talk) 23:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, obviously it is clearly noted everywhere that he was the duke of Mantua. That is his claim to notability. Our article will clearly note it too. Obviously. The article Alfonso IV d'Este clearly notes that he was the duke of Modena. The article Elizabeth II clearly notes that she was the queen of the United Kingdom. The article Frederick Whitaker clearly notes that he was the prime minister of New Zealand. None of these articles needs to note the office in the title. Surtsicna (talk) 00:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Article titles have to stand on their own, without context. Your removal of "Duke of Mantua" or "Duke of Modena" is removing that context, that vital element of recognizability that written works always provide when they introduce him. You are forcing people to guess what this guy is notable for, and leaving them unsure about which/where article to look into. I want the article about Ludovico Gonzaga, Marquis of Mantua, not Ludovico Gonzaga, Duke of Nevers, or some other Gonzaga branch. Your reduced article title provides no context, and are forcing people to guess, and tripping them into the wrong articles. These are not household names in popular culture like Louis XIV that can stand by itself without context. Readers should not be forced to memorize the numerical system of Gonzaga genealogies to find what they're looking for, they shouldn't be forced to remember or guess ahead of time that Ludovico III is Italian and Ludovico IV is French (or Louis, or Luigi, or whatever book they're reading who might use a different first name altogether). To be recognizable, they need that context in the article title, and "Duke of Mantua" provides it. Removing it is just erecting needless obstacles to readers. Walrasiad (talk) 00:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You are again inventing ambiguity when there is not any. There is no Ludovico Gonzaga, Duke of Nevers. You cannot insist that the name be disambiguated from the name of someone who never existed on the basis that someone might not know that such a person never existed. That is outright insane. Surtsicna (talk) 00:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Huh? Never existed? We have an Wiki article on him! We happen to use the French spelling for it, but Ludovico Gonzaga is his name in Italian, and he is often referred to as that. He is in our own Ludovico Gonzaga disambiguation page. Walrasiad (talk) 01:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, one can indeed include that Louis among the Ludovicos. Yet there is no danger of him being confused with Ludovico III Gonzaga. That title is just as able to stand "on its own, without context", as Ludovico II Gonzaga is. Surtsicna (talk) 01:36, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

No danger? Because as the Ludovico III Gonzaga, Marquis of Mantua page notes, he is also often referred to as "Ludovico II". Indeed it is even possible to find references to him as Ludovico I, being the first marquis by that name. Strange how certain you seem. Walrasiad (talk)

No danger indeed. Ludovico III Gonzaga is perfectly unambiguous. See these: it is perfectly clear who Ludovico III Gonzaga is. We do not need to entertain the what-ifs and could-have-beens when it is plain to see. Surtsicna (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yet the article's very lede (& sources) says its clearly ambiguous. But you say you know better? That's quite some hubris. Walrasiad (talk) 03:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

No, it does not say the name is ambiguous. We can all read what it says. It does not mention anyone else called Ludovico III Gonzaga. Surtsicna (talk) 12:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That's disingenuous. It explicitly says he is frequently referred to as "Ludovico II". There are other people called "Ludovico II Farnese" who are not dukes. The difference between this guy & others who have that common name, is that ours is a duke. The "Duke of Parma" in the article title disambiguates this Ludovico II from other Ludovico II, including his own father. Walrasiad (talk) 19:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

But we do not call him Ludovico II. We call him Ludovico III. "Duke of Parma" does not disambiguate him from anyone since "Ludovico III Gonzaga" is already unambiguous. You cannot possibly not understand that. That is like insisting that elevator should be called elevator (machine) because the alternative name, lift, is ambiguous. Surtsicna (talk) 11:08, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Walrasiad. Many if not most passing references will be to eg "Ferdinando, Duke of Mantua" without mentioning the family name. Johnbod (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I do not think that we should give more weight to passing references than to titles in reference works, indexes, journal articles, etc. Many if not most passing references to Millard Fillmore will be to "President Fillmore" without ever mentioning his given name; yet I would be surprised to see someone arguing that, because of those passing references to "President Fillmore", the article about him should be titled Millard Fillmore, President of the United States. Surtsicna (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)