Wikipedia:Administrative action review

Administrative action review (XRV/AARV) determines whether use of the administrator tools or other advanced permissions is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Any action (or set of related actions) involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted here for community review. The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions, or to quibble about technicalities.

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48 hour block of Tewdar by Sandstein

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Action: 48 hour block of Tewdar for alleged Personal attacks or harassment: [2]

User: Sandstein (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

The reason given by Sandstein for this block was: 'This is in response to the personal attack you made on Pepperbeast here. It's not clear what you mean by "legacy admin", but it's clearly meant to be a term of disparagement. I'd have normally warned you first, but that would not have been helpful in your case since you write at the top of your talk page: "Do NOT post generic templated messages on this page! I won't read 'em anyway, and even if I did, I probably wouldn't give a ha'penny fuck about whatever it is you're complaining about! 😁👍".' However, the actual statement from Tewdar was: "Anyway , my opinion on the 'X exonyms' articles: delete the fucking lot, or delete none of 'em. Just don't single out Cornish for deletion, like some legacy admin." There was a lack of clarity there, which would have been clearer had Tewdar added "once did" to the end of the statement. That is "like some legacy admin once did". As Tewdar explained, the issue he was referring to was a case in the past where an admin (unnamed) had attempted to delete just the Cornish page, and not the whole set of pages currently being considered, on some apparently objectionable grounds. As such it is clear that Sandstein misunderstood a perfectly valid deletion !vote as being a personal attack on the nom. It was not.

Now no one should fault the misunderstanding. Textual communication is often clearer in the writer's head than the readers, and misunderstandings happen often. To that end, we should not fault Sandstein for coming to the conclusion that there was a personal attack. Yet with the above explanation, it is clear there was not. And any comments were definitely not directed at the AfD nom. Any ire Tewdar was expressing was towards an event in the past by an editor who has remained unnamed (and I have no idea who it refers to). What does need a review is how things proceeded after this. Because multiple editors expressed concern to Sandstein on the AfD page, on Tewdar's talk page,[3] and on Sandsteins talk page (as linked above) to express concern about the block. Sandstein was asked to rescind it as an act of goodwill, and because there had been no personal attack, and because blocks are supposed not to be punitive, but he was unwilling to do so.

331dot reviewed the block and maintained it because he says Tewdar admitted the term "legacy admin" was "disparaging". Which is as may be, but it was not levelled at anyone! He did not seem to notice that there had been no personal attack. And this, unfortunately, is a problem with block reviews. It seems that guilt is implicitly assumed, and although again I can see exactly why that might happen, it is still something that should be carefully guarded against.

Tewdar made a second unblock request and no administrator even responded to that one. Instead the block was allowed to lapse.

This, however, is not good enough. Blocks leave a permanent indelible trace in the logs, and the fail to repeal a bad block fails to provide any correction in the log, or any recognition or understanding that the process has failed. And it has failed here. Tewdar is an extremely good natured and competent editor who presents himself irascibly, and is not afraid to say what he means, but no one who has seen his edits will be in any doubt that he is anything but an asset to the project. See, for instance his recent creation: Prehistoric Cornwall. We don't want to lose an editor such as this simply through doubling down on a misunderstanding. And neither the term "legacy admin", even if actually directed at someone, nor the F word should be grounds for a block. Neither should a joking reference at the top of a talk page asking not to be bothered with dsaware templates be used as grounds for not even giving a warning, nor asking an editor what they meant by a term that the blocking admin admitted they did not understand.

Please do not close this on the ground the block has expired. The question is whether the block should have been rescinded when it became clear there was no personal attack. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Bad Block It's a bit of an odd block that was maintained by others, and it seems to be exclusively over the one comment, according to everyone involved. I wouldn't have made the block. I think in particular, admin need to tolerate others commenting about admin, including legacy admin, and let it roll off them. People are going to vent a little from time to time. This seems to be so odd because Sandstein is typically pretty level handed with things like this. Even when I disagree with him, I can understand where he is coming from, but not with this block. To my eyes, it was barely worth warning about, let alone blocking over. Maybe there is more to it than I see on Tewdar's talk page, I don't know, but at least on the surface, the block was a mistake. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse [Switched to: Do not endorse; what follows is in terms of volume mostly my thinking on the topic of how editors should not say "legacy admin" and so I will not strike that, but I would strike parts about how that relates to blocking, but for ease of comprehension, I won't strike that either; but I give up on the idea of blocking for utterances of "legacy admin" after considering replies to this comment, mainly: the circling the wagons optic, and how treating it as a taboo could have the adverse effect of increasing it's potency as a tool to offend]. Everyone who says "legacy admin" should be blocked. Time to put an end to this unhealthy meme. People can absolutely not use the term "legacy admin". Active admins from 18-19+ years ago don't need special veneration, they know why they have been doing what they are doing, but they don't need disparagement either in a way that departs more and more, as time passes, in the direction of an ageist notional framework and evokes a really ugly image of people being conceptualized as generational models of something, of some machine, and as if the previous generation of administrators was succeeded by the new and "perfected" model, which was updated with the latest "clue" routine, only for those remaining specimens of the old vintage to be branded as "legacy" in a clearly ridiculing way. I know how often it is used and in which contexts and there is some variability to the meaning, but but it is very saddening for me to see it used in any context. Starting from this, and despite this jargon having been tolerated in the past, it's better to endorse the block as a preventative block that will stop the editor from saying "legacy admin" in the future. And maybe other editors will also stop saying it. Maybe there's a bit of a general prevention aspect to this too. You can say someone is an admin who has made a series of big mistakes, an incompetent admin, a terrible admin, an admin in name only, and admin who should not be an admin anymore, but do it for a reason, when you can back it up with evidence, and do it in a proper forum. If someone looks like they need help understanding something and have got used to doing something a certain way which is not the best way any more, go and tell them, be good to that person. Don't call them a "legacy admin".—Alalch E. 00:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I strongly disagree. Who was the victim of this "personal attack"? Pepperbeast? Then you have to say that comparing someone a "legacy admin" is a personal attack. I disagree with that, unless you are saying that being a "legacy admin" is a bad thing. The comment might have been a little rude, but that is why I said it was barely worth a warning. Were all "legacy admin" the victim of the attack? That is farfetched. And no, we won't be blocking for using the term "legacy admin" flatly, context matters. Who are we protecting? Admins? I think the block was a knee jerk reaction that wasn't thought out properly, either circling the wagons (not likely) or subconsciously inserting more meaning into the phrase than it warranted. Because it might look like circling the wagons, admin need to be extra careful with these cases. He used the phrase in a mildly pejorative manner, which isn't worthy of an insta-block. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't personally favour using the term "legacy admin", as I think there are more precise terms that can be used, but I appreciate that many use it as a different way of saying "long-tenured admin". Any disparagement is contextual from what is being implied about long-tenured admins. Ironically, trying to forbid its use as unhealthy is more likely to make it considered an insult by default. I don't think the community's usage is there yet, and so would rather not label it as a taboo term. isaacl (talk) 00:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I dunno if "legacy admin" is strictly speaking a personal attack, though it does have negative connotations. I've only really ever seen it used as a short hand descriptor for an admin who passed RfA in the early/Wild West days of the project, who has kept the bit, but has not kept up with the changing standards required of admins in the last fifteen to twenty years. Someone who has kept up with the standards wouldn't ordinarily be considered a "legacy admin", they'd just be an admin. Firefangledfeathers pointed out a June 2023 Arb case where multiple editors used the term in this manner, and as far as I can tell it wasn't considered a personal attack by the committee. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Do not endorse. While the comment was not the greatest, it was not a personal attack and definitely not worthy of a block. "Legacy admin" can be used disparagingly, but there is a very big difference between being mildly disparaging about an unnamed party and making a personal attack. Thryduulf (talk) 00:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Bad block - Unless I'm completely oblivious to some sort of abjectly offensive meaning to legacy admin, that is not remotely block-worthy. I cannot find anything in the diff that would warrant even a warning. EvergreenFir (talk) 01:02, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Especially given that Tewder had a clean block log, what could possible be so bad about this comment to warrant a block? Tewder has no history of WP:CIVIL block. Yet we let some long-term "net positive" users be patently offensive and give them only warnings? EvergreenFir (talk) 01:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Do not endorse (a/k/a strongly disapprove). I find this block, of a good-faith editor who has been contributing for five years with no prior block history, to be shockingly bad. Whether or not one cares for the term "legacy administrator," it is hardly a blockworthy personal attack, especially since the term has been frequently used (including even on arbitration pages) for years, and I don't believe anyone has ever before been blocked or even seriously criticized for using it. The block is even more troubling because it was based on a comment that was not obviously inappropriate and was not preceded with any form of warning. Sandstein has stated that he blocked instead of warned because Tewdar had posted a notice on his talkpage stating do not leave generic templated notices on this page. That rationale is completely unpersuasive. Even if that notice were taken literally, this situation did not call for a "generic templated notice" anyway; if any warning were warranted, it would have been a customized one tailored to the specific, somewhat ususual situation. Thus, I find the block seriously flawed both substantively and procedurally. If the block had not expired by time before I saw the unblock request, I would have unblocked. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Bad block. I'm involved here and have already expressed my view at Tewdar's talk page. The block was based on three premises:
  1. Tewdar was calling Pepperbeast a "legacy admin"
  2. "Legacy admin" is a personal attack
  3. This particular personal attack merited a block without warning
  None of the three premises are true. Tewdar's comment was not about Pepperbeast, but an unnamed admin. "Legacy admin" is used commonly here and I've never seen anyone blocked for it (e.g. many uses by editors and admins in good standing in this discussion). I appreciate Alalch's argument that we should stop using the term, but I'd prefer we discuss that first before blocking. Even if we assume that it is a personal attack, Sandstein admitted that he'd normally have warned about it rather than blocked. He only blocked because Tewdar had a banner (visible in this version) asking people not to post "generic templated messages". You can still warn a user without using a template. In fact, we encourage people not to template experienced users. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Bad block. I agree with Dennis above that Tewdar's comment was barely worth warning about, let alone blocking over. Bishonen | tålk 01:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC).
• Bad block I agree with what others here have said, particularly Dennis Brown, Newyorkbrad and Firefangledfeathers. Tewdar can be acerbic at times, and the comment that lead to this block is certainly in that vein, but that doesn't really rise to the level of a block. Blocks are supposed to be preventative, but I don't really know what this block was intended to prevent other than perhaps another sarcastic comment. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Bad block. It is, in fact, true that our standards for admins have shifted over time and that this has sometimes led to problems stemming from people who went through RFA decades ago who don't know policy as well as we'd expect from a new candidate today; and "legacy admin" is a fairly common and uncontroversial way to summarize this, at least in the context of ArbCom,WP:ANI, and similar places where people are debating whether and why an admin has erred. I can understand people not liking the term; certainly, in some contexts, it could qualify as an WP:ASPERSION, since it's calling an admin's competence into question. But like any potential aspersion that also describes possibly genuine problems, it has to be handled with some caution. It's definitely not at the level where simply saying the term can reasonably lead to a block. More generally, this block smacks of lèse-majesté - it is simply not conceivable that someone could get a block with no warning for some similarly anodyne comment questioning the competence of non-admins. --Aquillion (talk) 09:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• "Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits." Those are the Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television, and with one exception, I don't believe I've ever used any of those terms before at Wikipedia. But they also don't bother me in the slightest, but that's tied, I guess, to my background, upbringing, culture, and ineffable elements of personality. I'm not bothered when Tewdar, or other users use them, especially in non-accusatory ways, or without hurtful intent or result. However, I recognize that we are all human, and other editors with other backgrounds bring other experiences and reactions to bear, and that Wikipedia has a schizophrenic attitude about how we deal with profanity and blasphemy. For me, perceived intent is a lot of it, and I perceive no ill intent on the part of Tewdar in this case, and therefore I view this as a bad block as well. At the same time, for more than a decade, I have considered Sandstein a model admin (surprised? we've had no interactions iirc, yet still I've always looked up to you), and guess what—admins are human beings, and I'm not going to criticize their call on this one, even as I disagree with it. I'm perfectly willing to grant their take on this based on their experience, and this doesn't shake my impression of them in the slightest. To Tewdar: if you can please fuck off with the fucking "fuck-you's", at least to the fuckers who react differently to this shit than you and I do, you'd have a fucking better time of it, imho; so get your fucking shit together. And how 'bout that beer? And a very pleasant good-night, and happy editing to you! (edit conflict) Mathglot (talk) 09:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm looking forward to the beer, but as far as I can remember I've never said f-you or f-off to anyone on here. I'm afraid bad language was an integral part of my upbringing, and it's simply not something I really think about except when people point it out.  Tewdar  11:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Not a great block, but then you have to consider I'd have normally warned you first, but that would not have been helpful in your case since you write at the top of your talk page: "Do NOT post generic templated messages on this page! I won't read 'em anyway, and even if I did, I probably wouldn't give a ha'penny fuck about whatever it is you're complaining about! which is not an unreasonable point - I note Tewdar has removed this now, which is definitely a good idea. Black Kite (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Blocking admin's comment: Thanks to all who left feedback above. I'll take it into account the next time I'm about to block somebody.
  It underlines (again) the very significant disagreements surrounding civility and its enforcement in our community. I'm quite aware that I'm at the strict end of the spectrum in this respect. In my view, civility and the expectation underlying WP:NPA - comment on the content, not the contributor - are of essential importance for making an international, mostly anonymous, collaborative project work, and for attracting and retaining good editors. In my view, Tewdar's conduct at issue, in which they disparaged others as a "legacy admin", did not live up to these expectations, and merited administrative action. And if people post flippant notices on their talk pages telling us that "I probably wouldn't give a ha'penny fuck about whatever it is you're complaining about!", they take the risk that they will not be warned before any block because such warnings would be ineffective - by their own account, and because the tone of the message indicates that they are not someone who would take any kind of warning seriously in any case.
  I understand that many here take a different view. Regardless, as long as we as a community don't come to an agreement about the degree of civility we are willing to expect and enforce in practice, I think that we must live with the fact that individual admins will apply their individual standards in deciding whether to block (or not block) somebody, which will result in uneven enforcement. In this respect, I see my approach as somewhat counterbalancing that of the admins who will not take action to enforce our community standards, especially if doing so against the wrong people would make them unpopular.
  I do take Aquillion's point, though, that admins, as people exercising authority, must remain open to criticism, which must not be sanctioned as lèse-majesté - even though admins, like all editors, have a right to be treated civilly. In my view, this concern does not apply here because the person who was attacked, Pepperbeast, is not an admin.
  Procedurally, I believe that this review request is out of process and should be closed. Per WP:XRVPURPOSE above, XRV does not apply to "an action with a dedicated review process". That is the case here, as Tewdar used the dedicated unblock review process, and their unblock request was reviewed and declined by 331dot. This review request is, therefore, forum shopping. Sandstein 10:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  No. XRV is for community review, whereas unblock reviews are a blocked editor's appeal to be unblocked. I'm rather saddened that you would wikilawyer in an attempt to get this thread shut down, when there is a lot of precedent in using this process to review blocks. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 10:40, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm disappointed in the reply, to be honest. This venue exists primarily for this kind of review, this is 100% in process. You do not understand the sentiment here, and using up good will fast. Most of us hoped this was a one-off error, but your comment seems to be doubling down. I don't see this as satisfying WP:ADMINACCT at all. You seem to be justifying a bad block because YOU think that the civility policy should be enforced more than the community does, and the community's expectations are just getting in the way of your superior judgement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  (after edit conflicts) Sirfurboy did not have anywhere else that he could bring this for review, so no, there was no forum shopping. I was about to post in this thread suggesting no further action, but Sandstein's post above convinced me that this admin has no intention of following WP:ADMINACCT. There may be other reasons to block Tewdar but in this case there was clearly no personal attack or breach of civility. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment As I am not an Admin and also obviously involved, but I just wanted to add to the original complaint that sandsteins approach to the criticisms he got while the block was in place really rubbed me the wrong way. I asked him a specific question on his talk page, and all I got was various iterations of "I stand by my original point and won't elaborate". As I result, I still don't know what policy reason for a block sandstein invokes here. Was the intent to stop Tewdar from contributing to the original discussion he made the comment in? Was it to give him a timeout so he could rejoin the discussion with less (alleged) sarcasm? was it something else entirely? I can understand admins not always wanting to respond to every single little thing, but in this case there was clear confusion on multiple pages by multiple users, I think at least some clarification was warranted here. One more point: the notice on tewdars talk page, per the wording, only applies to templated warnings, so it shouldn't have affected the block rationale in any way whatsoever, given that "don't template the regulars (or newbies, for that matter)" is a widely shared sentiment on this here website. --Licks-rocks (talk) 10:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Blocked user's comment - I'd prefer not to add too much to what I've already said on my user page (wouldn't want to get even more blocked, eh), but one of the most troubling aspects for me is that Sandstein still does not seem to understand, despite being told by almost everyone who has commented, that this comment was not directed at Pepperbeast. Perhaps someone could ask Pepperbeast whether they think my comment was directed at them. Read what I wrote again, I'll break it down: "Anyway, my opinion on the 'X exonyms' articles:... - Several things can be deduced: firstly, I am addressing the deletions discussion and its current and future participants, not Pepperbeast individually , to whom I had already said all I had to say (i.e. 'this appears to have been linked from the wrong article' (I had already seen that several such deletion requests had been started, which was all fine and dandy, as Pepperbeast obviously was not singling out only the Cornish exonyms article for deletion)....delete the fucking lot, or delete none of 'em. Just don't single out Cornish for deletion,... - obviously my eloquent and erudite contribution to the !vote....like some legacy admin." - the alleged personal attack. Now, as Sirfurboy points out, adding '...did once' might have made this clearer. At the time, I thought it was obvious who it was aimed at: "To all current and future participants in the deletion discussion: please don't single out Cornish exonyns for deletion, like some [...] admin implied we should do one time". If this was not clear at the time, then that's poor wording on my part. However, by now, it should be crystal clear: even if this was a personal attack, it was not a personal attack on Pepperbeast. I don't really think I should say anything else, except thanks for the kind remarks and support from several of the people here.  Tewdar  11:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Bad block, and Sandstein's response is disappointing and unsatisfactory. If we really want to wikilawyer this (and I don't, but whatever), I'll say the block review process failed and could also be reviewed here. 331dot (talk · contribs) declined the unblock request on the grounds that "As you admit you intended the term to be disparaging, it is a personal attack." That's stretching WP:CIVIL to prohibit criticism in general, and a poor response to Tewdar's request. Mackensen (talk) 12:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  There is a difference between negative criticism and disparaging someone. This is on top of someone who(at the time) indicated that they didn't give a "fuck about whatever it is you are complaining about", which came off to me at WP:IDHT. I may say more later, but I too will take the advice here. 331dot (talk) 12:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Adding that I agree this discussion is supposed to be here/is not out of process. 331dot (talk) 12:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'm with everyone else that this wasn't Wikipedia's finest moment, so normally I'd see it as needless to pile on, but I wanted to add some points that haven't come up yet. Firstly, incivility is a problem on Wikipedia where it creates a hostile and offputting environment that drives away some potential volunteers. This makes it more problematic in the Talk namespace, the Wikipedia namespace, or someone else's User talk page, and less problematic on one's own User talk page. Personally I have a high tolerance for swearing and anyone who wants to say "fucking" is welcome to say it on User talk:S Marshall. But, I also know that there are people who're genuinely put off by words like "fucking", and it drives down the level of discourse on Wikipedia. I think that in context, while the post wasn't blockable in itself, it does justify the frowny face and waggy finger of mild administorial disapproval just for saying "fucking" in what's meant to be a collegial space. I'm much less troubled by "legacy."
  Secondly, although I'm aware that 331dot's decision isn't the one we're reviewing, I do think it displays poor judgment and there's a learning opportunity there.
  Thirdly, we need consensus and technical support on when and how to edit block logs. I think the just outcome of this would be to remove the block from Tewdar's block log while it remains on Sandstein's administrative action log, but it can't be done.—S Marshall T/C 15:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Could a one second block be made for Tewdar to say something to the effect of "the previous entry is null and void" in the log? 331dot (talk) 15:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  With Tewdar's consent, I think that would be a great deal better than nothing.—S Marshall T/C 15:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  maybe put some eye-popping characters, underscores, block elements (well maybe not quite) to guide the eye to that entry first and prevent a cursory looker's first impression of the block log listing more blocks than it does. First impressions are hard to shake off. —Alalch E. 16:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps a few 😂s and 🤡s and 💩s? Anyway, this suggestion appears to align with the typical intricacies often found on Wikipedia, which I find rather fascinating. May I kindly inquire if it would be possible for me to designate the individual responsible for implementing the block? Additionally, would it be feasible for this action to take place on April Fools' Day?  Tewdar  16:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  You can certainly ask, but you can't compel. Thryduulf (talk) 17:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Tewdar: would you like me to add a 1 second block to your block log saying "per [link to this AARV discussion], the previous block was found by the community to have been inappropriate"? It will be clear it is referring to Sandstein's block, so I wouldn't namecheck him again. And I wouldn't be waiting until April first. If you say "yes", I will; if you say "no", I won't; if you want the message tweaked or delayed, I'll leave you to bargain with another admin. I wish there was a cleaner way to make this note than a new block, but there currently isn't (AFAIK). --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Something like this might be a nice gesture, and I appreciate the offer, but joking aside I think we should probably wait and see what kind of consensus there is for this. Honestly, I'd personally prefer something along the lines of 331dot's suggestion of "the previous entry is null and void", even though this probably wouldn't technically be true. But again, I'm not sure what other people think about this.  Tewdar  19:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know that there will be a consensus here on any particular wording, since the idea behind this page seems to be limited to "the action being reviewed was good" or "the action being reviewed was bad". But I could easily be wrong. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think in general, if the action being reviewed was bad, it should be put right to the extent possible. Perhaps this page could be used to do that, too.  Tewdar  20:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Tewdar: I think Floquenbeam's proposed wording has its charm since it explicitly mentions the full weight of the community support for declaring this block as inappropriate (or maybe better: unwarranted/baseless). –Austronesier (talk) 20:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Tewdar, I agree with Austronesier that Floquenbeam's offer is worth it. Had your block review been accepted, this would have created a second entry in the block log, and the two read together would have provided necessary context, but here the offer also contains a link to this whole discussion, which would be a suitable record of the bad block, and gives more context than a succesful appeal would have done.

  It is not perfect. Ideally the record would be expunged from the log, but no one has the power to do that. This is the best that admins can currently offer, and I am grateful they have offered it (also grateful to 331dot for suggesting it).

  There is a larger meta issue here: should block logs be editable? Or, indeed, should the edit count pages of users be amended not to list the number of blocks. Block records would still be viewable, but viewing the log in your case would always provide the context that the block was a bad one. hiding the raw number would stop people jumping to wrong conclusions. But those are not questions for this place. They are for somewhere else. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Something like "per [link to this AARV discussion], the previous block was found by the community to have been inappropriate/unwarranted/baseless" is fine. I'm not too bothered about the exact wording to be honest. Thanks.  Tewdar  09:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'll just ping Floquenbeam in case they miss that reply. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

   Done. I hope Twedar didn't try to save an edit in that 1 second... Floquenbeam (talk) 17:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Given that Tewdar has a clean block log except for this, that makes it seem more important imho to have something in the log mitigating the effect of an unanswered block log item. I don't know what the best something is, but I've heard of 1-second blocks before, and if that were accompanied by a link to this discussion, and possibly some words (t.b.d.) that would seem like a positive step. Mathglot (talk) 20:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Bad block Overkill at best. Also I think that the response had several issues. Accusing someone who came to the right place of forum shopping is double incorrect. Irrelevant side note...the restrictions at the top of the page were never agreed on. They put there during the chaotic drafting of the page and never agreed on. North8000 (talk) 17:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• 19 hours in, I'm still waiting for Sandstein's response to his initial incorrect claim that this was forum shopping (and a proper response to the community will, in general). As I said before, I do not feel his response was adequate under WP:ADMINACCT, which I view as a serious problem. I'm shocked to be here like this, Sandstein was not in my top 10 list of admins I have reservations about, but here we are and I feel his response to the overwhelming opposition is underwhelming, ie: the likelihood that he might happen again seems unacceptably high. We shouldn't have to keep asking or hounding to get a proper reply, making us look like the bad guys, when it was his misread of global consensus that brought us here. This board and Arb are the only two places that we can find resolution, and I think everyone would rather walk away from here feeling confident that he gets it. The time for reflection has passed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 05:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Dennis Brown, your conduct here, with unwarranted threats of arbitration, is now becoming abusive towards me.

  I didn't write the rules for this forum, I merely try to apply them. They provide that this forum is not for appealing actions that have dedicated review processes. That applies to blocks, which per WP:UNBLOCK are to be appealed with a talk page unblock request or to UTRS, where in each case another admin will review the block, as was the case here. Likewise, WP:BP#Unblocking provides: "An uninvolved administrator acting independently reviews the circumstances of the block" (emphasis added). Policy is therefore clear that block reviews are in the purview of individual reviewing admins, not of this forum. In my view, 331dot's block review therefore precluded an appeal to this board (as it would have if 331dot had unblocked Tewdar). Clearly the others commenting here disagree, but you can't fault me for merely citing applicable procedural rules. Instead, you should seek community consensus to amend the blocking policy to allow further appeals to this forum if you think this is needed.

  Likewise, WP:ADMINACCT merely requires that I explain my actions when asked to, as I have done here, on my talk page and on Tewdar's talk page. It doesn't require that I agree with you or any and all criticism of my actions or even opinions on appeals procedure. It is clear to me that consensus here thinks that my block was a mistake, and I will take the expectations of the community, as expressed here, into account going forward. More than that cannot be asked of me under ADMINACCT. Sandstein 06:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  No one threatened you, you were told that only two places exist to question admin actions, and we all want to end it here and move on, so lets not be a drama queen or play victim. You continue to say this is out of process and this forum is not for reviewing admin actions, which is ludicrous. The RFC that started this process (which I was against, btw) clearly closed as "A new process, Administrative Action Review (XRV) designed to review if an editor's specific use of an advanced permission, including the admin tools, is consistent with policy..."[4] You insistence that a single admin's review of the unblock request, by 331dot, exempts you from further scrutiny. Even 331dot, the admin you claim already reviewed your actions, clearly stated "I agree this discussion is supposed to be here / is not out of process." It comes across as rather arrogant, Sandstein, limiting most of your comments to arguing how this board doesn't have the authority to review your block. The real issue isn't policy, it is your interpretation of the stated policies, which is not in line with the community's. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Additionally, a second unblock request was made, which expired without action. It would be against the spirit of accountability to not allow this review here merely because the block already expired. FWIW, Newyorkbrad stated there as well as above that they would have unblocked had it not expired.—Bagumba (talk) 07:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I was about to write a longer comment but I figured brevity would save me time and energy.

  1. Your insistence in suggesting that this isn't a proper forum for this issue, as seen with the amount of text arguing for that in your second reply, doesn't inspire confidence in me about how you would handle future cases where your views diverges from community consensus.
  2. Merely suggesting that you will take account of this going forward, because that is the bare minimum of what policies say an admin should do (and only on a second reply to this thread, after Dennis stressed the problems again above), leaves me unimpressed with the way you handle disagreements.
  3. The way you reacted towards ArbCom being mentioned as a venue worries me.
  4. The continued wikilawyering, and a failure to engage with the actual problems discussed make me sad.
  5. I have lost trust in you as an admin.

  Have a nice day, to whoever is reading this. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 10:58, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have also lost trust, which is particularly sad since up until this case, I had always had high respect for him, even the few times when I disagreed with him. I'm at a loss. I don't think we are the only ones. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sandstein has never been in my top ten of admins I respect the most, but neither were they in the bottom ten. I am extremely disappointed by their comments here, and I do not get a sense that they understand why the nearly unanimous consensus is against them even if they begrudgingly accept to follow it (about which I have no reason not to AGF). On it's own I do not think this single incident rises to the level of further action, but I'm not going to stand in the way of others who do. Thryduulf (talk) 12:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Sandstein you seem determined to escalate the issue. I think all anyone's looking for is an acknowledgement, on your part, that you shouldn't have made the block, and that you'll take everyone's feedback on board. Your lawyerly responses come off as an attempt to evade accountability, not embrace it. I frankly do not understand what you think you're accomplishing here and I implore you to reconsider your approach. Mackensen (talk) 11:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Since everything I write here seems to give rise to further criticism, I will be brief and not comment further here. I remain of the view, for the reasons set out above, that Tewdar's comment actionably violated our civility policy, and that this forum is, per WP:XRVPURPOSE, the wrong forum in which to review the resulting block. But I recognize that consensus is against me on both issues. Because Wikipedia operates on consensus, even though I disagree with it, I will abide by this consensus, and will be guided by it in any later similar situations. That is all, I think, that admin accountability requires of me. Sandstein 12:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Admin accountability required you to get to this point way, way sooner than now. You repeatedly stated that in order to successfully make an unblock request, the blocked editor had to admit that the block was correct. You were incorrect there, and I hope not to see you making such incorrect claims in the future. It is perfectly acceptable to make an unblock request by challenging the propriety of the block, as was done here, and it was the correct thing to do, because it was a bad block. This is why "legacy admins" get a bad rap (even though the problematic legacy admins are actually a small proportion of all legacy admins, but the problematic ones create problems that everyone remembers, like this one). Levivich (talk) 16:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  See, but I asked you to explain your actions on the talk page while the block was in effect. I went through great lengths to express my question as politely and precisely as possible. I asked about a specific policy rationale for why this block was performed and why no other solution would have worked here, referencing the relevant policy in my request. There was no way for me to make this question more clear, answerable, and specific without consulting a lawyer. Your trice responded that your previous explanation on the talk page was sufficient and no further response would be forthcoming. I was not the only person to ask a question in this vein. The others fared no better. So you did not explain your actions when asked to, and, as a direct result, did not satisfy WP:ADMINACCT here. It doesn't "merely require that", it requires that and you did not satisfy the requirement. --Licks-rocks (talk) 12:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I think there should be sanctions on admins who make unusually bad decisions. Perhaps a 48 hour block is in order for User:Sandstein. Plus, an apology from the admin corps to User:Tewdar. Smallchief (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Idk about the "admin corps." Apologies are due from Sandstein and 331dot. But most admins who have participated in this discussion on the various pages have opined that it was a bad block. In fact I think all but those two. Levivich (talk) 17:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd say this discussion is the apology from the admin corps. As for a block of Sandstein, that would be punitive (in violation of WP:PREVENTATIVE). Thryduulf (talk) 18:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I think a formal reprimand is probably the most that can be required. Blocks are not supposed to be punitive, and we wouldn't be preventing anything by blocking sandstein for 48 hour. (In fact, I'd argue the reason we're all here is because the original block by sandstein was a punitive one.)--Licks-rocks (talk) 18:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This page was intentionally set up to discuss administrative actions without considering enacting sanctions on the performer of the action. Discussion about sanctions should take place in another venue. isaacl (talk) 18:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Huh, I quite like that, actually. Thanks for informing me --Licks-rocks (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Also why this was, in fact, a better forum to raise this rather than the only other option: AN. I thought AN would be more of a bear pit. The point was to right the record and learn lessons, not to extract a pound of flesh. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that was exactly the right move, and it was the exact purpose of this forum, and this is an example of it working as intended. Levivich (talk) 18:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Terrible block and terrible decline of appeal Agree with Levivich that "Apologies are due from Sandstein and 331dot." Trouts should be in order for both admins. Sad that this editor got a scarlet letter, and somewhat buoyed by Floq's action to remedy the situation. I am also unconvinced that Sandstein gets the point because their response above seems to be some sort of Alford plea. Lightburst (talk) 23:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to just get on with what we were all doing before

Does anyone disagree that this discussion has jumped the shark? Imho it's clear that:

• there is wide disagreement with the original block;
• although there are plenty of ruffled feelings, the admin was acting in good faith;
• this isn't the venue to discuss sanctions, and they won't happen in the right venue anyway per PREVENTATIVE so it's moot.

Can we just let this die and be archived, or does someone want to insist on a formal closure, because I vote for the former; it's been well aired; let's let it go. Mathglot (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing about this report that warrants special handling. Farmer Brown - 2¢ (alt: Dennis Brown) 22:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This discussion has a clear consensus. When discussion dies down, that'd be a good time to close it with a summary of the clear consensus. Archiving it early doesn't seem like a great solution here. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify: not urging early anything; just hoping it will die, and therefore, ultimately be archived. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. Mathglot (talk) 23:29, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Just thought I'd drop by and say hi! EEng 02:06, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with Sandstein's narrative that their block was simply a disagreement about the degree of civility we are willing to expect and enforce in practice[5] There are specific procedural errors and misjudgments that they have not addressed:

1. Presumably the reason for the block was WP:WHYBLOCK's persistent or severe personal attacks There's no evidence this was persistent, and the user had not been blocked before. "legacy admin" is not severe, even moreso when the alleged target isn't even an admin.
2. For argument's sake, let's assume that this was a severe PA. Per Wikipedia:No personal attacks § First offenses and isolated incidents:

   Often the best way to respond to an isolated personal attack is to simply ignore it.

   Let's assume further that it was perceived as egregious and not to be ignored. The policy continues:

   If you feel that a response is necessary and desirable, you can leave a polite message on the other user's talk page

3. Sandstein cites the message that was on the top of Tewdar's talk page as a reason not to warn the user. But that message started Do NOT post generic templated messages on this page! I won't read 'em anyway...[6] And the NPA policy anyways advises

   Although warning templates may be used for this purpose, a customized message relating to the specific situation may be better received.

   Tewdar's message to others referred to "templated messages", but an administrator (or arguably any editor) anyways shouldn't be resorting to a template in this situation to a regular editor. There is no acceptable reason to not to have given a warning.
4. Finally, WP:ADMINACCT mentions the folowing as a problematic action:

   Failure to communicate – this can be either with editors (e.g., lack of suitable warnings or explanations of actions) or to address concerns of the community (especially when explanations or other serious comments are sought)

—Bagumba (talk) 07:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Undue 7 day block by ScottishFinnishRadish against Thinker78

Action: February 2024 block; diff 1

User: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · logs) ([[diff 2 I didn't make more objections as I did because I was planning to appeal with relevant points. I made two appeals, took into account more community input in the drafting of the second one: appeal 1, appeal 2; Declined arbitration case, where some arbitrators pointed to instead using alternate dispute resolution before reaching them.|prior discussion]])

Misusing administrative tools. Not assuming good faith. Disregard of the consensus process and collegiality, disregarding my experience and treating me like a random anonymous vandal. Disregard of policies backing my edits. I did not do forum shopping. Before publicizing the discussion in other talk pages, I consulted the content dispute policy and the canvassing policy to see if I could publicize, in order to get more uninvolved input in the discussion. I heeded the warning of admin Johnuniq, I did not fail to listen, I did not further revert, but did complain. All concerns they had about my revert could have been discussed before any warning and blocks were issued. Thinker78 (talk) 22:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to drag ScottishFinnishRadish through a second colonoscopy this week? Looking at your edits and recent comments, it's clear that you still don't get why your actions were wrong or even that they were wrong despite many people having told you so. Following policies to the letter while ignoring the spirit of them will end badly, such as this case did. I really don't think there's anything that should be done here since your actions leading up to the block as well as during the block declines were indeed disruptive. You posted requests asking for comments in a discussion where such a request was not appropriate; policy pages shouldn't have requests for comment in individual behavior issues. You then proceeded to wiki-lawyer the admins considering the block requests, utilizing walls of text, instead of reflecting on where you might have gone wrong. The way I see it, the block and revocation of TPA served to prevent additional disruption via restoration of IP troll comments and waste of the community's time. Noah, AA^Talk 23:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Didn't your WP:ARC about this just get declined today? Seems like WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Wikipedia talk:Administrative action review#Request of opinion in dispute may also be relevant, where an editor convincingly argues with 5 diffs that you FORUMSHOPPED a previous issue. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  Response. Thinker78 (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think Thinker78's filing here shows extremely poor judgment, but I don't think it can be said that it's forum shopping. Since ArbCom declined (at least in part) due to a lack of community review prior to the case request, bringing this up for community would be a sensible next step. Sensible, that is, if there were more merit to the filing here, but that lack of merit doesn't make it forum shopping. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I continue to be very busy, so if there is anything specific someone needs, please ping me. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Boomerang [With my individual editor hat on, not my Arb or Admin hat] This saga has revealed that Thinker is immune to feedback, obsessed with being proven right, and generally a bad fit for the project. Take Special:Diff/1216237366, where after Acroterion provided some constructive criticism of Thinker's approach, Thinker entirely disregarded Acroterion's point and left a borderline harassing message on their talk. My first encounter with Thinker also reflected their inability to take feedback: Special:Diff/1176975053 (failing to understand why saying "Good one. Lol." might be seen as aggressive and inappropriate). Combined with their crusade to be proven right about a short block, Thinker is wasting considerable editor time and needs to either get that they were in the wrong, or get out. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  @CaptainEek with all due respect, can you focus on the issue at hand, which is the block by ScottishFinnishRadish? I mean, if you have further issues with me, you can always open an ANI process. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 00:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• The only thing wrong with this block was its length. If that wasn't clear before, it is now. —Cryptic 00:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  I just like it or I just don't like it don't provide clarity and should be avoided, according to the consensus policy. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 00:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)