Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

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Mschwartz1 granted extended confirmed for the purpose of participating in arbitration

Original announcement

• Sorry, but why has an account created today and with zero edits been given this permission, and why has it been announced publicly like this? GiantSnowman 22:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  The answer to the second question is almost certainly because people keep demanding as much transparency from arbcom as possible so they are being as transparent about it as possible, to keep discussion of it in one place (here) and to avoid well-meaning but uninformed editors unilaterally removing it. Thryduulf (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  The Committee was contacted privately by an organisation requesting a case and we told them to go through the on-wiki dispute resolution processes. This is the account their representative created, which needed an exception to the existing restriction in the Palestine–Israel topic area to be able to post it. As Thryduulf says, it was announced publicly to increase transparency and to hopefully reduce issues down the line. Sdrqaz (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough, but I have more questions than answers now... GiantSnowman 09:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  @GiantSnowman. It may just be a coincidence that this report (The Bias Against Israel On Wikipedia) was published this week. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  It may or may not be a coincidence. I can say the conversation with us that led to this grant has been going on since early February. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Until such point that the user needs to edit through extended-confirmed protection, it should be sufficient to permit the user to make edits related to the case; if such need is expected, a decision can be made to give the technical right when the need arises. Animal lover |666| 17:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  By definition non-Extended-Confirmed users are not allowed to post anywhere other than article talk pages to make edit requests related to topics under ECR. Thus, to file a case request they must be granted Extended Confirmed status. It could potentially be reasonable to have a BANEX-type exemption for Arb-specific business such as ARC or ARCA requests, but that is a matter for ARCA/ARM to deal with. Primefac (talk) 17:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I may be wrong but my thoughts go straight to POV pushing with this. v/r - Seawolf35 ^T--C 17:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  If you are referring to Mschwartz1 suddenly jumping into article editing, that was not the purpose of granting the user right and it would immediately be revoked were that the case. It was granted to post and participate at ARC. Primefac (talk) 17:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Not article editing, but given the nature of this topic area there are many groups who have their preferred way of how events are covered. Arbitration seems like a nuclear option to me. I do recognize that there is plenty I don’t know, but this in my instinct, seems like it would just be an attempt to use arbitration to get their preferred picture of events on Wikipedia. v/r - Seawolf35 ^T--C 17:59, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  so if the account is used to edit any ECR articles, can any admins either remove the right or block them from editing in the main space until the stated need for the EC right no longer present? – robertsky (talk) 19:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  (Speaking in an individual capacity) I suppose, though notifying us or the clerks would be good. I hope that in such a situation, a warning or a nudge would be sufficient for them to stop editing said protected page(s). Sdrqaz (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  About that article claiming anti-Israel bias on Wikipedia, I don't know whether or not that's something that is influencing ArbCom, but I'm having flashbacks to the paper that influenced the Polish Holocaust case. I don't want us to get in a position where outside advocates learn that they can get a knee-jerk reaction when they have an issue with our content. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I mean, while a few people on each side got bans and topic-bans for civility issues (and in one case because it came out mid-case that they were a sock and had been all along), I don't think they did get what they wanted in that case. They didn't understand what ArbCom actually is and does, which is likely the case here as well - it seems like they expected ArbCom to just decide what articles on the subject should say. In fact, the most sweeping actual allegations they made in the paper were barely discussed in the case compared to civility issues. Based on the authors' later commentary, this frustrated them to no end, but that outcome was probably unsurprising to experienced editors - incivility is easy to prove; whereas in a controversial topic area where reputable scholars disagree, proving WP:CIVILPOV and the like is very hard. And the authors' ultimate assertion (that a bunch of scholars they disagreed with were WP:FRINGE and that there was actually an unambiguous scholarly consensus on the underlying dispute that our articles weren't reflecting) was just... very clearly not true, at least not in the way Wikipedia uses the term. By my reading, even many of the experienced editors who broadly agreed with the position their paper took didn't seriously attempt to argue that aspect, since they recognized the impossibility of proving it (and also recognized that, again, proving a case based on WP:CIVIL is comparatively easy.) And if you look at eg. one of the articles at the heart of the case it has barely changed since the case closed. I suspect that this will go the same way - the hard spotlight of an ArbCom case might result in bans for a few people in the topic area whose behavior has been suboptimal, but the sort of seismic "REWRITE ALL THESE ARTICLES!" mandate from ArbCom that they likely want is just not going to happen. --Aquillion (talk) 02:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with your assessment of the incorrect expectations of the paper authors from that earlier case, but I also think that should be a lesson to ArbCom about being awfully careful about starting cases based on outside pressure. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I see that the new paper actually devotes a section to the paper from the earlier case, and treats that paper very approvingly. No wonder I'm having flashbacks. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I still haven't read this new paper so I can say with confidence it's not influenced any of my decision. I also was not aware of the paper before this discussion so if it's influenced others it hasn't been mentioned. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks so much for clarifying that! Because I learned here that ArbCom had received a request from an organization, and because another editor posted a link to the new paper, I was concerned that the new paper might reflect whatever ArbCom had been contacted about. But I'm glad to see your reply. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Seeing subsequent discussion below, where it's confirmed that the scope of the pending case request is indeed about Israel-Palestine, and the ongoing mention by various editors of the new paper about that topic on Wikipedia, I'm left wondering whether the outside group that is having someone prepare a case request is also the outside group that published the new paper. That doesn't mean that anyone on ArbCom has read the new paper or was previously aware of it. But it does raise the possibility that the case request is going to reflect a request to ArbCom from that outside group. Of course, such a case request is just that, a request. It might not result in a case. Or it might reveal some legitimate conduct concerns. But I strongly, very strongly, urge ArbCom to keep in mind that a new user representing an outside group has no more standing or credibility in making such a request, than anyone else in the community does. And my concern stated above, that we don't want outside groups to get in the habit of thinking they can skew the POV of our content by framing it as an external criticism of Wikipedia, remains. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Noted. Hopefully it does not come down to that. – robertsky (talk) 09:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  So this is an shared organizational account, and its contributions are not going to be associated with an individual? (c.f. WP:NOSHARING). — xaosflux ^Talk 18:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sure seems to be the case. v/r - Seawolf35 ^T--C 18:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Fear not. The committee made clear that the account should only be operated by a single individual. So if it does turn into a shared account that can be handled as we handle any account which violates NOSHARING. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for the note. Is this someone that is expected to only make contributions that reflect their own personal ideas? — xaosflux ^Talk 00:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  As I understand it, this person wishes to present some evidence of disruptive editing. The evidence doesn't include private information so we don't want to handle it off-wiki but they don't have standing to make an enforcement request on-wiki so here we are. I for one am curious to see what evidence they want to present and the community response to it so we can get to the bottom of the allegations. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  As I understand it, this person wishes to present some evidence of disruptive editing. The evidence doesn't include private information so we don't want to handle it off-wiki but they don't have standing to make an enforcement request on-wiki so here we are. I'm glad Arbcom is working on being more transparent. If I might give some feedback: If this plus the first comment above by Sdrqaz were put into the initial explanation, that would be everything I'd look for in a perfectly transparent statement. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  An arb speaking on their own is much easier than ~7 arbs agreeing on wording which is what it takes to post at ACN. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's fair, I'm sure wrangling Arbs into making a statement is no small task. Just offering feedback on what I'd consider the ideal, not necessarily what's feasible every time. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  No it all makes sense. One other element: we see here that there are any number of concerns. Some concerns (and speaking generally not just about this statement) are more predictable than others. So while I think there is a version of this statement that you'd consider ideal, and could have produced that ideal in some situation where we're not dealing with the limitations of a multinational asynchronous 15 member committee with no hierarchy who is still trying to make decisions in a reasonable length of time, I don't think that's the ideal statement for everyone who has had questions here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Why would this organization have any standing at any ArbCom process? Obviously this editor has not attempted any of the usual dispute resolution processes. MarioGom (talk) 22:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  The organisation does not. We allowed one individual to take responsibility for what they want to present and to post it on-wiki. The subject matter is the Arab-Israeli conflict, which is already the most heavily restricted topic area on the site and has been the subject of four(!) previous arbitration cases so is already within ArbCom's jurisdiction. To me, this route seems like the least dramatic, most transparent way of handling allegations of misconduct. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree. There is no community dispute here. No editor escalating anything. Only an external organization that, according to their report, are seeking measures like requiring admins to disclose their identities (in this context, a safety threat for Arabic Wikipedia admins, among others) or get themselves as WMF-sanctioned "bias researchers". Had this come from some other of the external organizations that are currently attempting to influence controversial areas, they would have been shown the door, alerting Trust & Safety to monitor the situation. MarioGom (talk) 23:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  If that is their goal then their arbitration request will be fruitless for them. However, I think it is better for them to be allowed to actually make the request and present their evidence and reasoning before judging it (in exactly the same way that multiple editors are demanding that arbitrators do not prejudge things in the COI handling case), especially as it hasn't even been confirmed that the organisation writing the report is the same the organisation requesting a hearing at arbitration. Thryduulf (talk) 23:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough, since we (non-Arbs) don't know if it's the same organization. Although it is not comparable to the COI management case though, since all parties there were previously editors who participated in (unsuccesful) dispute resolution. MarioGom (talk) 23:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that based on the information available to us at this time, an external organization should not have standing to raise requests relating to editing. Arbitration exists as a way to resolve issues that the community has tried and failed to resolve, not as an office for external complaints about Wikipedia. Perhaps there's some missing evidence we can't yet see that justifies this and I'll reserve more serious judgment until the case is underway, but an explanation of what that would be eludes me. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think a case request will ever be the "least dramatic" option in any context In all seriousness, I was also confused about this whole thing, for the same reasons as MarioGom. Presumably (just my speculation, obviously) this case request will include grievances with editorial decisions made at specific articles and/or by specific editors. I'm sure I'm not saying anything that arbitrators haven't already thought about, but I think it will be important to consider why a case would be warranted if other processes (such as AE, which regularly deals with the topic area) have not yet been exhausted. And especially important for this unusual instance, if this outside organization does not have any members with previous editing experience – given that they had to register a special new account to participate at all – in which case they are likely unfamiliar with the way dispute resolution works around here. DanCherek (talk) 23:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Arbirary break 1

• (Non-sarcastic or anti-committee comment) It is good to see the committee uphold the principal that alternate accounts created for short-term security reasons are welcomed; e.g., in case of discovery by the *checks notes* Islamic Revolutionary Guard, which has been described by the CFR as 'paramilitary'[1], and whose leaders are one of a select global elite liable for CIA assassination[2], whose members have a penchant for mass human rights violations,[3][4] and willingness to manipulate your favorite crowd-sourced enclopedia to those ends.[5][6]. Cheers, ——Serial Number 54129 18:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  If this is an alternative account it would be a surprise to me. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Not quite the salient point. I said the committee has upheld the principal, etc., which it was unable to do officially on another occasion. Whether it's a role account or an individual one for the same purpose of security seems of less consequence than the principal. The cttee should be congratulated on now promulgating this principle. Unlike some editors whose refusal to do so suggests an insularity so behemothic, it's a wonder to behold. ——Serial Number 54129 19:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think that any definitive conclusions should be drawn from this grant of extended-confirmed; I don't envisage the Committee routinely doing so again. Maybe I'm missing something, but alternative accounts for privacy are allowed, if discouraged. Sdrqaz (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I know this will end in POV pushing. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  How do you know this? Thryduulf (talk) 00:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  (self-redacted) LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  It being "fairly obvious" to you that something published off-wiki, which may or may not be by the same organisation, does not explain how you "know this will end in POV pushing" on wiki. Thryduulf (talk) 02:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I mean... even if unrelated, it's still a weird coincidence. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'm assuming the committee is aware that granting extended-confirmed to a user before they are otherwise eligible breaks autopromotion of that user when they actually become eligible? stwalkerster (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know if the committee is aware but I am after the last time we did this. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I was/am aware too. Sdrqaz (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• What of WP:PAID and such? If the account is here to act on behalf of an organisation, surely it would require disclosure? – 2804:F1...60:5FC0 (talk) 00:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Possibly, but not necessarily. It will depend the organisation, the relationship between them and that organisation, and in what capacity they are editing. Regardless, given that they haven't made any edits yet, we can be certain they haven't violated that policy up to now. Thryduulf (talk) 00:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  PAID only applies to editing; any account with 0 edits is, by definition, not in violation. If this account only edits within the ArbCom case, then a prominent statement to that effect within the ArbCom statement is enough (the beginning of the statement, and the end of the primary statement before any replies, are each necessarily prominent enough). And the information that ArbCom gave the community doesn't tell us if this person is actually paid - in some organizations it may be reasonable to volunteer, in which case PAID is irrelevant. I trust that ArbCom knows this person's actual relationship with the organization, and will ensure any disclosure they see necssary, which will certainly be no lower than what PAID requires. Animal lover |666| 09:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Though, this aspect makes me mildly uneasy. Certainly WP:PAID itself applies to mainspace edits, but in a more general sense, our normal reaction to anyone spending money to influence Wikipedia (more typically through WP:CANVASSing) would be to push back against them and treat anything they say with skepticism. Even if an outside "hired gun" raises valid policy-based objections to the conduct of individual editors, my concern is that the potential for disproportionate scrutiny could still lead to bias - it raises the specter of eg. a think tank or governmental organization devoting paid staffers to compiling dossers on why editors whose views they disagree with in related topic areas need to be banned. As you say, we don't even know if this is from someone being paid, and if there's a clear violation of our policy that they're pointing out then there's a clear violation, but I do think that if this turns out to come from someone paid to file it (ie. a lawyer, possibly a literal one, sent to argue before ArbCom as if it were an actual court), then we need to step back and consider the lopsided enforcement that could result in if it becomes more common, and think about what steps could be taken to rein that in. --Aquillion (talk) 03:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  PAID applies to all edits, not just mainspace. In particular, it does apply to projectspace discussions involving content such as AFD, and it does apply to ArbCom pages too. MarioGom (talk) 09:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Just a reminder that Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure#How to disclose specifies "They must do this on their main user page, or on the talk page accompanying any paid contributions, or in edit summaries". I question whether the solution proposed by Animal lover 666 is really compliant with this since even if we're generous and treat the case request page as a talk page, there is also the evidence page which they are likely to edit. And what about if they also get involved in the workshop or proposed decision page? I would strongly suggest that in addition to a declaration in their case request, they should also post about this on their main user page. And we are generally fussy about proper disclose in other cases when it comes up rather than just allowing then to say something somewhere and be done with it. I see no reason to treat this any different. I agree it's a moot point until there's any editing. Nil Einne (talk) 15:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Unrelated to the arbcom decisions, but when did IPv6 signatures change to exclude the middle digits?— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 13:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I suspect that was not an auto-signature, a more recent one doesn't look like that. If you see more please open a thread at WP:VPT though. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I just do that manually by copying the user(talk) part from the reply preview or "show changes" and ending it with 5 ~ chars. I can't ping people if I do that though. 2804:F1...44:311A (talk) 20:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Just to set some expectations: there were multiple weeks between messages from the Arbitration Committee and responses to us. So while I admit it would be somewhat surprising to me given how long it took us to get to this point, it wouldn't be out of character for it to be 2 or 3 weeks before this is filed. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• Why isn't this a decision that arbs are voting on on-wiki, and providing explanations for their votes on-wiki? It seems a significant first (unless I'm mistaken?) for arbcom to entertain a case request from a non-editor. I appreciate the arbs who have explained their reasoning and answered questions here, but I'd like to hear from every arb whether they support allowing non-editors to make case requests, and why or why not. I understand I'm not entitled to an explanation from anyone about anything, but tbh I feel like the community kind of is entitled to know how arbs are voting and why, whenever that is possible. Off-wiki decision making should only be done for things involving private evidence, and it doesn't seem like whether to allow a non-editor to make a case request is something that involves any private evidence. Levivich (talk) 04:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  The biggest reasons I supported this motion rely entirely on private evidence because "The Committee treats as private all communications sent to it" from ARBPOL. I will note that with Jytdog the committee only revealed its private approval afterwards and so we're breaking precedent in order to try and give increased transparency. Barkeep49 (talk) 07:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49: you've already received evidence? Of what? Levivich (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I can see how my use of the word evidence caused confusion. When I wrote "The biggest reasons I supported this motion rely entirely on private evidence" a better description might have been "The biggest reasons I supported this motion rely entirely on private factors". Barkeep49 (talk) 15:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  What is a "private factor"? Levivich (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  From context I can assume material that would implicate WP:OUTING or WP:HNE. Especially the latter, given the immediate suspicion shown by everyone in this thread towards a non-editor who is doing their best to satisfy his boss(es)' wishes in a forum they have zero experience in about a topic that is equally sensitive and prone to attracting aggressive partisans. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 17:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  What you're describing is what I call "private evidence," which arbcom has already said is NOT the case here, as the evidence can be submitted on-wiki. Levivich (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  That assumes the material is entirely or partly about on-wiki matters. Which, given the implications that the editor is not experienced with editing Wikipedia, assumes facts not in evidence. While they've almost certainly made an argument that ArbCom agrees needs to be examined further and can be done with on-wiki evidence (per Primefac below) the issue here is the identity and affiliations of the person bringing the complaint, which is not automatically private evidence but would need to be kept obscured for OUTING/HNE reasons. You're conflating private material and private evidence; the latter is material relevant to the case that cannot be discussed openly. Compare/contrast EEML (private evidence - the email contents) and JBA (private material - the identities of those Jytdog spoke to). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 18:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  In both those cases, arbs deliberated and voted on-wiki. Why is this different?

  The decision to allow somebody to create an account and be XC's so they can post a case request... why is this decision being made off-wiki, is my question. There is lots of precedent for decisions involving "private information" (whether that's "evidence" or "material") to nevertheless be made on wiki. Levivich (talk) 18:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I will answer with a very pointed question: When was the last time you spoke to Laura Hale? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 18:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have no idea what that means. Levivich (talk) 18:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Then you likewise have no idea why ArbCom would have a vested interest in keeping the identity of this person under wraps until they file their case request. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 18:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Right, I have no idea why outing and harassment are linked under "vested interest," either. Too cryptic for me. Levivich (talk) 18:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Private communication sent to the committee on which I based my support for granting this user ECR so that they could file a request in this topic area. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for answering my questions but this answer brings me back to my original question: why is the communication private if it doesn't involve outing or other kinds of off-wiki evidence ("private evidence")?

  The way I see it, if a person has evidence involving outing or the like, evidence that can't be dealt with on-wiki, they can just submit that evidence to arbcom privately and arbcom can act on it, as is the usual procedure with private evidence of this type (right?). There is no need to give someone ECR to post an on wiki case request in that scenario.

  If it doesn't involve private evidence, then why would any part of the process be private? Why not have the person make their request on wiki, have the arbs discuss it on wiki, and vote on it on wiki, like an ordinary WP:ARM?

  In other words, if the evidence is "public" (meaning: suitable to be posted on wiki), then why are arbcom's deliberations and decisions made privately (off wiki)? What is the need for secrecy here? Levivich (talk) 18:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Because this particular organization has a bit of leverage in Wikimedia processes. WP:OUTING, etc, so we cannot really discuss the details on-wiki yet. But after the inevitable disclosure during the case request, we'll be able to discuss it. MarioGom (talk) 18:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  How is it possible that outing is a concern yet arbcom told this person their concerns can be brought up on wiki? Levivich (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Because that is how our OUTING policy works. Communication with ArbCom is private, and while the identity will need to be self-disclosed, I think ArbCom cannot do it on its own. Even if you independently figure it out, you are not supposed to bring it up here until they self-disclose. The policy does not have a provisión for this kind of case, where we all know the identity will be self-disclosed, and some people probably figured it out already. So we'll have to pretend OUTING is an issue for a while. MarioGom (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  There is no pretending about it - disclosing someone's identity on wiki when they haven't done so themselves is outing. Some people think they know who it is, they might be right, but imagine the repercussions if they posted that on wiki but they're wrong - especially given the truly massive assumptions of bad faith flying around this discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree it is OUTING per policy, as I already mentioned. The argument will be moot anyway once the request is posted, and my point is that we should just wait. MarioGom (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  my point is that we should just wait. I agree completely with this. Indeed given the heat to light ratio, it mightn't be a bad idea to draw a line under this discussion for now. There is almost certainly no more information that arbcom can share according to policy (and probably doesn't know everything some people seem to be wanting them to disclose anyway), and unless and until Mschwartz1 actually does post something, nobody else has any additional relevant, non-speculative information they can share either. Thryduulf (talk) 22:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

• Did you consider telling them to create an account or two and editing non-controversial areas for a month? The experience they might have gained might have been helpful for their arbitration actions, and all of these special measures and discussions would not have been necessary. We might also have gained a few hundred edits to offset all the time-wasting that allowing non-editors from lobbying groups to seek arbitration will surely bring by itself and as a precedent. Usedtobecool ☎️ 09:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, how does this not open the doors on "non-user advocacy groups can now waste everyone's time with requests for arbitration"? If the answer is "they made a compelling case, privately", well then the case request took place privately, which is doubly weird. What group do they represent? How do we know this isn't a banned user doing an endrun around the process? I appreciate the transparency, but this seems like an extremely bad precedent to set. Arbcom is for user conduct issues, and a user in good standing should have to raise those. Parabolist (talk) 09:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• This has been raised/discussed a few times above, so I am going to post my responses here mainly to avoid duplication. ArbCom received a request for private arbitration; we determined that this was not necessary as it could be handled on-wiki. We have done our due diligence in making sure the request is legitimate. We have done our due diligence in making sure the individual participating in this process understands our expectations for their on-wiki conduct. We discussed the merits of having a case request versus sending this to AE, and here we have landed waiting for Mschwartz1 to finish collating their request. Additionally, nothing in our communications have indicated any connection with the published article being discussed above. Please stop pre-judging Mschwartz1 about their intentions before they have even posted anything. I know I cannot request the same for ArbCom since it comes with the territory, but I should think we would not be so easily hoodwinked as everyone seems to assume; the gaps in disclosure are just private information that we cannot reveal. Primefac (talk) 10:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Working on it since February, must be complex. Selfstudier (talk) 14:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Drafting a case takes time, especially if you almost never edited a Wikimedia project and are relying on a third party to write it. So I think a delay is understandeable. MarioGom (talk) 15:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Especially since case requests have gotten more complex over time, and the specific circumstances of the case can also affect the time it takes to put together a compelling request. It took me a few hours to put together SEE back in 2009, and that was for a relatively straightforward case. A hypothetical PIA5 in this age would take considerably longer. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 18:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think something that might have been helpful would have been to have them ready to post the case when you grant the rights. Given that all we know about this case is that its about to the I-P area, and that it might take them weeks to actually post this, this situation sort of puts a strange sword of damocles over editors in that area. There is an arbcom case coming, that it sounds like will be accepted (On the basis that arbitrators have said that it obviously isn't frivolous, and have gone out of their way to give someone standing to post it), and it could be about anyone. Arbitration cases are lengthy and exhaustive for everyone involved, and I would be stressed out if I was a major editor in that area until it was posted. Parabolist (talk) 20:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Considering ths history of the cases related to this topic, you can assume that the preparation for the next ArbCom case starts as soon as the previus case was closed. Until the real world conflict ends (and there's no sign of this happening in the foreseeable future), Wikipedia and ArbCom will still need to struggle to keep this topic under control. Animal lover |666| 07:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  To your last sentence, Animal lover, I completely agree, and I've said the same myself in a few places. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's pretty much how it is for every ethnopolitical CTOP area (AP2, AA, EE, PIA, IP, TRB). And sometimes, not even then (eyes TRB). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 16:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• If this was the type of thing that merited being given a special dispensation to file a case, much less an enforcement request, I have serious concerns that the committee is inviting outside organizations to attempt to drive away editors through specious filings that would normally invite a boomerang at AE (in fact some of the things complained about were brought to AE and already resulted in boomerangs). I would rather yall had no idea what the quality of the complaint was before you granted this permission, but that raises its own question as to why you thought allowing this to go forward was a good idea. nableezy - 18:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  ArbCom did not "invite" anyone to file. ArbCom is allowing them to file. If this weren't a 500/30 topic area - if it were American Politics for instance - they wouldn't have needed any permission at all. If the request doesn't meet the standards it will be declined or procedurally removed as would any other case request. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  The inviting is referring to other potential cases that outside parties attempt to file seeing this was allowed. The special dispensation was referring to this allowance here. nableezy - 19:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  We received a short version, saw nothing private, and told them to make the case publicly. The fact that we granted them ECP does not prevent us from denying their case requests as bad, revoking the permission, or even blocking them if they prove disruptive. Of course, the spurious case requests will waste community time, but a good amount of that wasted time will be, shall we say, unnecessary and self-inflicted? By which I mean "the usual suspects will show up at ARC to remind us that they have opinions!!! and share those opinions because they seem to think that arbs can't read or think for themselves." That sort of time which they could have spent sharing opinions!!! at ANI instead.

  GeneralNotability (talk) 18:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Part of why 500/30 exists is to prevent users from wasting everyone's time. Having now read the text of their request, it seems like exactly the sort of thing the restriction was designed to protect everyone from. Normally, I'd be fine with arbcom setting a precedent that they want to inflict wastes of time on themselves, but the reason the "usual suspects" show up to things like these is because even a 1% chance of a good editor being taken to arbcom on spurious reasons is too much. At the very least, by allowing this you've also forced Nishidani to waste his time responding to it.Parabolist (talk) 19:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Beyond that, I assumed the standard for any case request not involving tool misuse included that the filing user is also expected to show that prior dispute resolution has already been attempted. How does a user who has never attempted any form of dispute resolution skip right past that requirement? How does a user show that they have engaged in good faith to address any issues with measures short of an arbitration case if their first edit is a case request? nableezy - 20:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  They are required to show the prior dispute resolution has been attempted, not that they personally have attempted dispute resolution. In a topic area like this a non-ECR editor can attempt very little, and even some of that will be shut down without even looking to see if there is substance to the request. Thryduulf (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Do you see substance here? nableezy - 20:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, but that's irrelevant to both the specific question you and the situation in general. You asked how a used could show evidence of prior attempts at dispute resolution when their first edit is a case request, and I answered that question. You did not ask whether this user had done so. Also, there is no standard for case requests, simply a standard for case requests that don't get quickly declined. This case request has been quickly declined, albeit without prejudice to a request posted in the correct place and format. If a request is posted in the correct place and format also shows no substance, it too will be shut down (almost certainly with prejudice). Thryduulf (talk) 20:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  We forced nobody to do anything, and if you think that the peanut gallery's comments at ARC are going to prevent that 1% that you allude to then you have a vastly overinflated view of the average comment's value. You have yet to say anything that the committee did not consider in some way prior to the grant. GeneralNotability (talk) 20:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Have you read the case that was posted? (In the wrong place, of course, because the user hasn't spent any time on this wiki.) Some fairly vile things are said about Nishidani, so it's hard to take seriously that you think he shouldn't feel compelled to respond to them. Preventing fresh accounts from harassing editors is exactly what 500/30 was designed to do, and it's unclear why arbcom thinks case requests should be exempt from this. Parabolist (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I did. And if that is how they intend to approach arbitration, I will be more than happy to block them myself. GeneralNotability (talk) 21:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is getting more insane by the second. I just offered to do that (do you think it is not how they intend to approach arbitration??!! Based on what?) and was told ArbCom knows more than me. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Do I understand correctly that by giving ECP to Mschwartz1, the committee is signaling that they would likely punish me if I were to block Mschwartz1 right now as "pretty obviously using a throw-away account to harass another editor without allowing scrutiny of their own - possibly blocked - account"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I know the editor's actual identity and am aware of no blocked account for whom that matches to. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  So that's a "yes"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Given that an arb has told you that they are not "using a throw-away account to harass another editor without allowing scrutiny of their own - possibly blocked - account" blocking them for "using a throw-away account to harass another editor without allowing scrutiny of their own - possibly blocked - account" would be a very dumb thing to do. Thryduulf (talk) 20:50, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't have time to get into a whole thing with Barkeep about how they can be positive that this person does not have another account (blocked, or not). I'm sure I'd be told they can't tell me. Suffice it to say that, having seen Mschwartz1's first attempt (more to come, see the thread title) at harassing editors on the other side of the conflict, it is very clear to me that Barkeep is wrong, and this person has been in conflict here before. in any case, ArbCom can be cavalier about wasting their own time, and I kind of see their point about us lowly hoi polloi wasting our own time by choosing to post, but they're not accounting for the stress and pain that the targets of a case request will go thru, whether accepted or not. A case requests that would not happen if ArbCom hadn't granted this dispensation. As a failed Arb myself, I know this is really hard to get right all the time, but I'm surprised and disappointed that Arbcom didn't see thru this. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  What I understand so far (but can't elaborate until the appropriate disclosure is made) is that it is reasonable to assume that the filer has no prior experience in editing English Wikipedia. There is a more likely explanation to your suspicion that this case is not anyone's first edit ever, and it is that the case text itself has been prepared by another member of the organization who is a Wikipedia editor. Some will contend that my comment is speculation, and yes, there is a lot of guesswork involved here, but this is what we get with having an "organization representative" filing an ArbCom case and whose identity (as individual or as organization) cannot be discussed on wiki. MarioGom (talk) 21:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, that makes sense. I must have missed it somewhere above. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  In a current case, we're being criticised for not acting when concerns were raised from outside the editing community and essentially letting Wikipediocracy clean house for us and here editors are criticising us for hearing out a complaint from outside the community. We can't be all things to all people. Speaking for myself, if the complaints are without merit I'd much rather address them publicly and show why they are without merit than leave them to fester in the dark. And if they have merit, all the more reason to hear them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  And to add - as mentioned by my colleagues elsewhere if the claims do not have merit then all standard processes can be followed. firefly ( t · c ) 21:29, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Those situations are only superficially similar. And what you've done is the equivalent of giving "Eddy Landwehr" ECP. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:29, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think the comparison of those two situations was quite apt. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  They're not, because in the first situation, arbcom received evidence before Wikipediocracy "cleaned house". Levivich (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  But that was the point. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:30, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Worth mentioning that they have violated WP:BATTLEGROUND with their first edit. v/r - Seawolf35 ^T--C 21:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, Seawolf35, for providing such an excellent example of what I mean when I refer to people who make comments thinking that arbs can neither read nor think for themselves. GeneralNotability (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  No need to be a dick. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  To put a (slightly) finer point on what Floquenbeam said, there's an ongoing case right now where the community has been advised not to assume that Arbcom is fully aware of something, even if one or more Arbs has already seen it. But yes, both this comment and the one you referenced are uncivil and make assumptions of bad faith. Seawolf35's account is barely a year old, and this discussion is the first time he's ever edited an Arbcom page. Biting him like that is uncalled-for. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 01:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 3

• You are going to have to control carefully what you allow. Just note, if the account is participating in discussions about content of any "topic" of any "article" on the pedia to further the purposes of an organization, than under WP:COI they need to WP:DISCLOSE (see also WP:COICAMPAIGN) the COI "whenever and wherever [they] discuss the topic". Wherever and whenever includes the Arbitration pages. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes. Just like every other arb case in a sensitive topic area. GeneralNotability (talk) 21:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, not every matter that comes before arbcom, sensitive or not, deals with accounts pleading on behalf of an organization and COI. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Apologies, I was replying to the whole "be careful what you allow" and did not make that clear. You are correct about COI concerns, though I note that COI is generally "encouraged to"/"should" disclose rather than "must" (much as I'd like otherwise) GeneralNotability (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  "Should" means there is consensus to do something at the proper time, if it is not done, it is a violation of the community consensus. (As for your replying to part of my comment out of context, best to not do that kind of thing.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Not really. There is a wealth of precedent here. Except in the case of WP:PAID and WP:ADMINCOND, there is no general mandate to disclose COI. Non-UPE COI blocks generally fall under broader rules such as NOTHERE, using Wikipedia for promotional purposes, disruptive editing, etc. On the other hand, I think there are additional circumstances to consider in this particular case: one is that WP:PAID probably applies, the other is that this is not just an editor that happens to have a COI, but someone who is here as an organization representative. MarioGom (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, really. The precedent is people who fail disclose COI are taken to task regularly. There are almost no "mandates" as you imagine them on the pedia, even something crucial to the pedia like violating NPOV does not mean insta-block. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Given that there was another massive case where this just came up, and given that highly-experienced editors are weighing in on both sides, perhaps this is something we ought to have an RFC for somewhere in order to settle once and for all. Though it might be worth starting a discussion elsewhere first because it's a complex topic and the exact wording of such an RFC probably requires workshopping. --Aquillion (talk) 03:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Given that the now-EC editor has posted in the wrong place only once, and that was (correctly) closed down—by Primefac playing the Sandstein Gambit of ArbEndgames—how long does the permission remain, or, more to the point, what happens if they choose not to post after all? I will not link to WP:BITE, to maintain the general atmosphere, but. ——Serial Number 54129 16:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  If they choose not to post at all, does it matter whether they have the permission or not? They can't edit disruptively if they don't edit. Thryduulf (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  The extendedconfirmed flag was granted solely for the purposes of participating in arbitration. If they don't edit, it doesn't matter so there's no issue. If they do start working on content, there's nothing stopping any uninvolved admin from issuing a topic ban or WP:PBLOCK from Article/Talk namespaces if needed. But I don't think that's a big concern; much of the speculation and what-ifs raised here seem very unlikely to actually happen. If they do, we can handle it at that time with the processes we already have. The best thing for all of us is to just chill and wait for something to happen before wasting time obsessing over worst case scenarios. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 21:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Let's not prejudge the issue. This is only "Complaint #1". By the time we get to Complaint #17 they might be quite good. It can take years for people to perfect their harassment game, especially if they aren't using disposable sockpuppet accounts for training. Given the complexity and constraints of the wiki-ruleset, I imagine transitioning from an off-wiki advocacy and harassment mindset to an on-wiki advocacy and harassment mindset could present some challenges. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  .) It took that long to produce complaint 1, complaint x will require non linear time to produce. Selfstudier (talk) 12:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  It can probably be crowdsourced. I just hope the person was told what to do with the canvassing emails they have probably already started receiving through wiki-mail. I have to say, some of the ARBCOM decisions over the years have had a positive impact on the topic area, especially the EC restrictions, maybe the most effective signal boosting/noise reduction measure so far. But this decision, with the caveat that I'm often wrong, seems like an obviously questionable and risky decision. To quote Harry Hill, "My Dad used to say 'always fight fire with fire', which is probably why he got thrown out of the fire brigade." I suspect nothing is going to improve by inviting people in to essentially advocate/start fires on behalf of a state or a people, regardless of how well meaning they are. The hypotheses upon which these kinds of actions are based are not falsifiable. Any outcome of cases like this can be incorporated into a negative model of Wikipedia without significantly changing it - Wikipedia is anti-Israel, biased against Israel, lousy with antisemites etc. It's a waste of time trying to appease people or change people's minds about it. They can change Wikipedia through participation, collaboration, not by advocacy and targeted killings. It's a complex system they probably don't understand, not a target-rich battlefield. On the other hand, I was glad to see them reference the universal code of conduct, which also forbids 'systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view', so no biased editing and advocacy on behalf of states and people's then. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  When encouraging editors not to prejudge the issue, it is best practice to refrain from extensively prejudging the issue, assuming bad faith and making borderline personal attacks. Additionally, it has been explained multiple times that nobody has been invited to do anything. Thryduulf (talk) 15:28, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  Well, that was sarcasm. Of course I'm going to prejudge the issue, start with priors based on the evidence presented and adjust judgement over time. And regarding "nobody has been invited to do anything", an external party, who is not part of the community, has been given special treatment - I can call it invited, given the opportunity, enabled, facilitated, whatever - with extendedconfirmed privileges no less (a fire prevention tool), to do something that I find difficult to distinguish from harassment (whatever the intent, I don't care about intent), given the history the targeting of this editor. This pre-judgement is based on the quality of the evidence presented, the extent to which the evidence relitigates closed cases, and my knowledge of the history of targeting in the topic area and how Wikipedia routinely addresses content issues when there are concerns about balance. I'm not assuming bad faith at all, I'm pretty confident that from their perspective they are acting completely in good faith, trying to make the world a better place, but as I said above, I don't believe that helps, hence the "regardless of how well meaning they are". And as always, in the topic area, the cost of faulty decision making made in good faith is not paid by the decision makers. Anyway, we shall see. As I said, I am often wrong. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:13, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

• What I don't understand is why ArbCom thinks there is a difference between an outside organization and an individual representative of an outside organization. Is it plausible that this individual received no guidance or assistance in wording the case? Is it plausible that this individual will not confer with the organization during the case? My answer is "not only implausible but impossible" in both cases. ArbCom has granted special status to an outside advocacy organization under all readings I can see. Furthermore (per Alanscottwalker) it seems like this individual representative will be given special exemption from the COI policy, since editing on behalf of an outside organization is an obvious COI. Zero^talk 08:16, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Surely at best it's a COI, if it is assumed that they have a significant degree of personal agency; at worst, if they're just acting as a pure proxy, it's no better than a dressed-up form of direct petitioning from that organisation. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'd also like to ask whether this individual has undergone a thorough SPI and if not, why not. Zero^talk 08:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  We don't open SPI cases without having evidence beforehand. I did investigate, to see if an SPI case would be due, and my conclusion so far is that it is very unlikely to be abuse of multiple accounts on English Wikipedia. Whether there is proxying for banned editors is almost imposible for me to know though. Also WP:PAID still needs to be addressed, probably once they post their second case request if it does not come with the disclosure. MarioGom (talk) 09:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• I read this page through again. ECR is not the problem. Here is my summary: some external advocacy organisation approached ArbCom asking for a private case against one or more wikipedia editors. ArbCom replies "No, we won't allow that, but if you select a front-person to file the case publicly, we will pretend that it is a case filed by an individual and keep your organisation's identity secret." Barkeep49 says "The committee made clear that the account should only be operated by a single individual" but this doesn't help at all since it is still an operation of the organisation regardless of how many employees have access to the keyboard (for precisely the same reasons we have rules about paid editing). I wonder if such a thing ever happened before in the history of the encyclopedia. Zero^talk 03:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

  I guess a positive spin is perhaps that it's a kind of bold experiment, albeit on a human subject without the proper human subjects protection by an agent who isn't qualified under the normal regulations. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

  On protection of editors, Trust and Safety alerted me several years ago to the existence of a new and vicious website which was dedicated to outing me, Zero, Huldra and Nableezy. On its website a score of prestigious names backed this effort (by an ex-wikipedian who sockpuppeted), a kind of virtual boardroom of senior professional figures in American Jewish life who were willing to lend their names to an endorsement of this shabby project. Daniel Pipes himself assumed a role as patron (just as he gave space on his website to a post excoriating me as a bigot). T&S did a good job, and the site collapsed through mortality and, I gather, a lack of funding that was sought to enable a stronger assault on anyone in wikipedia's I/P area who curated the P side of the equation. This attentive protection of an editor from execrable lobbying, appears to have been dismissed as no longer important.Nishidani (talk) 13:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

  The Committee has told them that they should disclose the organisation. I don't want to make promises, but I think that people's concerns will be alleviated when they see which organisation that is (or at least the wider Community will understand why we didn't dismiss them completely).

  I personally highly doubt that this is a reincarnation of that website. Committee members have fought to address lobbying/canvassing issues in this subject area and it would be inaccurate to say that we are undoing the WMF's work or abandoning editors to be harassed. Sdrqaz (talk) 14:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Unless it wasn't obvious, let me be absolutely clear on this. I certainly do not believe the present exposition has anything directly to do with, a reincarnation of, the former website. It was laughably incompetent (but, disturbingly obtained strong professional endorsements), whereas the snippet we have now shows far more work, even if it is, in my view, extremely erratic. There is no technical way one can determine whether or not the content provided from a single account comes from the ascribed editor working that account, or from several hands providing that editor with material input. Had MSchwarz registered, done 500 edits (a matter of a month's work) and then asked for this arbitration, I would have been the last person to take exception. (Let me say comically that I think wryly of the strong possibility that I might achieve a minor wiki infamy as the only single account editor twice permabanned, given the 2012 decision. That would leave me with a certain ironical sense of outstanding achievement!). Regards Nishidani (talk) 14:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Off-site activities indistinguishable from harassment and defamation, at least as far as I can tell, have been going on for years. In fact, a currently active editor posted a link to one of the active sites recently, perhaps including archived version of the one you mention Nishidani, I'm not sure, then thought better of it and removed it. I guess that's an advantage of this new approach of using an external party. It moves ineffective off-wiki activities onsite where they perhaps have a non-zero chance of success, or at least producing a chilling effect. This is my perspective, which is likely to be very different from the perspective of the source of the complaint of course. As for knowing the name of the organization making a difference, that seems very optimistic. Appeals to authority seem unlikely to succeed in such a polarized topic area and may make things worse. People can see the quality of the complaint for themselves. It is not great. What they could have written is something like - while we strongly oppose editor X's views, we recognize that in Wikipedia's collaborative model there is strength in diversity and that it is a work in progress. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

While the disclosure of the organization is needed and mandated by policy, it does not dispel my concerns about safety. But at least it will allow us to have a substantive discussion about the (lack of) legitimacy of the organizations involved in this campaign. MarioGom (talk) 15:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it's the International Committee of the Red Cross... Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

• I said this to Nishidani on their talk page, but I'll repeat it here: I think the thing to do is, if and when they file their case, for people to push to broaden its scope to encompass broader conflicts in the topic area, including people Nishidani has been in conflict with there (and whoever those people think needs to be added, etc., until we have an outline of an overarching dispute as opposed to just a case focused on one person.) There has been concern in the past about how ArbCom cases named for and focused solely on a single editor tend to assume guilt and strip larger, more complex disputes of context, which ArbCom has generally been receptive to; and I feel that that is a particularly major concern with a case like this brought by an outside party. The biggest risk here, to me, is that of one-sided scrutiny - large organizations can afford to go over the history of every editor they want to remove from a topic area and make dossers arguing for their removal. A broader case avoids these problems, puts the behavior of the editors they're focused on in a larger context, and pushes things back towards our more standard way of doing things, reducing the impact of the initial filing to just the spark that started a broader case as opposed to allowing outside organizations to invoke a more targeted spotlight on specific editors of their choice. --Aquillion (talk) 19:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I appreciated that observation, and focusing of just the 4/5 people who curate the Palestinian perspective, MSchwarz or whoever has in mind (#1...etc) is plainly flawed. In the earlier case of 2009 which led to my permaban, both behaviours were examined. The result was 4 'pro-Palestinians' permabanned, and 2 'pro-Israel editors' idem. I say 'two', not three, because, unbeknown to Arbcom at that time, every editor on the ground was 99% certain that NoCal and CanadianMonkey were the same person, the latter a sock of the former. That couldn't be proven because it was based on systemic tagteaming and certain stylistic clues that, in those days, were not sufficient to constitute iron-hard evidence for a complaint. Their 'invisible duetting' was one of the major causes for the impression of 'toxic' disruption.

But who would 'dob in' editors associated with the other perspective? I certainly would not, and, at a guess, I should think none of the others in the expected list would either. The area is not 'toxic' but certainly difficult, and most practiced editors on both sides manage to negotiate their differences. I say that because I remember when it was really bad, with scores of sockpuppets and IP blow-ins, something Arbcom measures have sensibly reduced. In short, Arbcome presumably would, were your suggestion adopted, pick through all this material and single out editors with whom the presently to be name gang of four or five often disagree, and draft them in as suspects. I think that would be unfair, indeed indecent.Nishidani (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

There are still scores of sockpuppets, and that's only the blocked socks for the guy doing the canvassing that formed the basis for the previous ArbCom case. The EC restrictions certainly raise the barrier a bit. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand that that's your perspective. But consider the alternative. The case against you is numbered 1, implying that they intend to go down a list of editors, which we can reasonably presume will be selected based on the organization's perspective. Each case will name only that one editor and, if the scope isn't widened, will not allow discussion of anyone else. You may personally feel that you will be able be completely vindicated or even prevent the case from moving forwards, but past history with ArbCom cases makes it clear that it is rare for an accepted case to end with no sanctions; the truth is that few prolific editors look ideal when their worst edits are pulled into the harsh light of an ArbCom case. This means that over the course of however many cases they intend to bring, it is likely many prolific editors will get sanctioned. If we passively allow them to just bring cases against whoever they wish to name and make no attempt to broaden them, the scrutiny involved will be one-sided, the resulting sanctions will also be one-sided, and the result will be lopsided editing in the topic area going forwards. This is bad for Wikipedia and sets a terrible precedent. The only way to avoid this is to have a broader case. To be clear, I am not saying that ArbCom is going to do pick through all the material to figure out which editors in the topic area require scrutiny; I don't even think that that's really their job, they mostly consider cases that are brought to them and can't be expected to know enough details of every single topic wiki-wide to decide who should be added as an initial party. I am saying that we need to do it - the community as a whole. I am sure that ArbCom is tired of comments from the peanut gallery on this, but making sure that a case's initial scope is comprehensive rather than one-sided is one of those places where outside contributions from editors familiar with the topic area are actually important. I would hope that other editors who are active there (on all sides) will participate in putting together a list of what requires scrutiny, since editors who are more active in that area will have a better sense of whose conduct ought to be examined. But if necessary I'll do it myself. My concern here is broader than just this topic area - outside organizations bringing laser-targeted cases like this is potentially harmful for the wiki as a whole (even regular users doing it IMHO isn't great); but at the same time, I understand that ArbCom can't ignore potentially valid concerns. The only solution I can see is to broaden the cases in order to balance them out. --Aquillion (talk) 21:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually no. To the contrary, I am sure, and have been since this first came out, that anything I say in my defense won't vindicate me. This perception has nothing to do with the integrity and excellence of those who curate these cases. It simply reflects a very realistic awareness that there is a marked dissonance structurally between what I consider evidence for what the full context of a dispute might suggest (hence my invariable, and unfortunately annoying TLDR mode of replying to what I think are factual disortions of the record through radical simplifications in diffs) and the efficient, functional evaluation of diffs, which form the gravamen of arbitration evidence, in terms of whether or not an editor adheres meticulously to the strongest reading of impeccable courtesy.When the ICOC was being discussed, I said (and many thanked me for it) that some wokeish wording in it was a dangerous recipé for enabling editors to disrupt our priority - mustering the best available scholarship on any topic to compose articles of encyclopedic value - by creating a 'culture of complaint' (Robert Hughes). We're a democracy and some of this was taken on board by a general consensus, and arbs are bound by it. The claim here might strike me as outrageous in its unproven and despicable aspersions about me being a 'Jew-hater' or someone who holds Judaism in contempt, but I know that there are a lot of people out there - certainly even otherwise respectable organizations like the ADL - who or which are extremely sensitive, and feel genuinely offended if what the scholarship I regularly rely on questions their perceptions of 'the truth' of their identity. They won't reply to the scholarship, but certainly will use the fine-print of the UCOC to raise suspicions that a person like myself who uses it has seamy motivations. Nishidani (talk) 09:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

If a case was needed, someone would have filed it? We should not go on an expedition for other parties just because this organization wants a case against those who they brand as "anti-Israel". Such a case would be dysfunctional from the beginning. The filing party is not subject to scrutiny by ArbCom, and they may resort to multiple venues simultaneously, on and off Wikimedia projects, which are not available to all editors. This asymmetry is not going to be made right by dragging even more editors to this. MarioGom (talk) 22:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

To be fair to everyone, ArbCom, editors, the organization that filed the case, nobody knows how to fix the problems in ARBPIA. Apparently, we haven't been smart enough to figure it out yet. I think it might be better for ArbCom cases to focus on process and technical things rather than individuals. That seems more likely to gradually move things in the right direction to me. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The simplest way to fix the problems one encounters is to make the habit of deleting edits using false edit summaries that show the deleter hasn't read the source a serious infraction. And secondly, to hold editors accountable if they raise accusations at AE which are dismissed as frivolous or unproven. These practices are endemic, and are really the only consistent abuses for which the otherwise efficient ARBPIA adjustments have not covered. The area is decidedly easier to work in than it was from 2006 to 2016 or thereabouts.Nishidani (talk) 12:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, let's wait to hear what Jewish Voice for Peace, the New Israel Fund, or whoever it is has to say on the matter. It's still not clear to me why the response wasn't more like "This is not your land. You cannot build an outpost here. Illegal outposts will be demolished by the community." Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 4

• It's been five days now since their first (fairly poor) attempt at having a go at Nishidani, how long is ArbCom going to wait for them to improve their technique? Black Kite (talk) 16:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Hopefully not much longer. We don't need a rerun of Framgate's culmination. It may be that there are some legitimate issues with a pro-<foo> bloc on par with EEML, but what we have right now seems to look more like harassment of Nishidani (and whoever else is on their enemies list) under ArbCom cover. And if the intent is to go down a list of everyone the organisation takes umbrage with in the topic area, then they need to read what happened the last time a pro-Israel organisation tried to slant Wikipedia this way or the last time someone tried to use ArbCom to get rid of an ideological opponent. I agree that if any case comes from this, it MUST be PIA5 - as much as I'm sure that makes ArbCom reach for the nearest bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 - and its scope needs to not only look at the situation on-wiki since the Re'im massacre, but also this organisation's apparent efforts to try and run editors off. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 23:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
  • ...how long is ArbCom going to wait... This statement seems to imply that we are doing nothing but sitting on our hands; once again I would ask that people stop assuming things based on a lack of information. To partially reply to comments by Aquillion and Johnuniq, the original malformed/misplaced request is not what we are expecting if/when a proper case request is posted; our desire for a broad-but-shallow case request has been passed along. Primefac (talk) 11:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

    Thank you for keeping us in the loop, Primefac (and every other Arbitrator). I imagine the timescale isn't what we like, but given the circumstances it's the best we can prolly hope for. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 15:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

    Thank you, it wasn't really a criticism as such, more pointing out that leaving certain editors twisting in the wind waiting for MSchwartz1 and company to dig out diffs from decades of interactions in a contentious area isn't really fair. Black Kite (talk) 13:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Aquillion's above suggestion that any case should be broadened is correct. Nishidani's comments might be cherry-picked with assuming-bad-faith interpretations and that could lead to a sanction. Or there might be no sanction. Then the lobby group could pop up a new Mschwartz1 with a case against the next editor on their list. If Arbcom continues with this farce it must be with the written proviso that (barring extreme exception documented in full) there will be no further cases of this nature in the topic area for two years. The off-wiki harassment campaign should get no more than one opportunity per two years. Johnuniq (talk) 04:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
• At this point is there anything preventing me from just blocking them as NOTHERE? It seems to be a clear-cut case. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  ScottishFinnishRadish, other administrators have asked the same question, and received the same answer. I suggest you read those threads (specifically from Floq). Primefac (talk) 15:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not afaics, but then I'm not an admin :) Selfstudier (talk) 15:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  For an editor to be NOTHERE they must be editing the project in a manner that is disruptive because both the purpose and manner of their editing is something other than improving Wikipedia. They are not presently editing at all, so they cannot be editing disruptively and so a block for NOTHERE seems completely unjustifiable. I'm honestly struggling to understand why people are doing anything other than getting on with editing the encyclopaedia at this point. There are basically only five things that Mschwartz1 can do at this point:

  1. Nothing. They never post again, and a whole lot of time and energy spent on this thread has been pointless.
  2. Post a new case request that (for one or more reasons) has no merit. The request will be swiftly declined, Mschwartz1 will have the ECR flag removed and everybody else can move on with improving the encyclopaedia.
  3. Post a new case request that has sufficient merit that it actively considered. Things will then proceed as if a "normal" (for want of a better term) editor had posted the request. It might or might not be accepted, but this will be on the basis of evidence presented.
  4. Attempt to become a Wikipedia editor by contributing to the Israel-Palestine topic area. This will be met with removal of the ECR flag, warnings and, if they don't get the hint sharpish, a block.
  5. Attempt to become a Wikipedia editor by contributing in other topic areas. This will almost certainly result in removal of the ECR flag (assuming this isn't in parallel to a case request that isn't dismissed out of hand), and then being treated like any other editor who makes the same edits.

  However, until one or more of these things happen, then I don't see any benefit in the continued drama here. Thryduulf (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Did you read what Mschwartz wrote about Nishidani? Did you see that it's labeled "#1", suggesting there are more complaints like this? You (and some arbs maybe?) suggesting that everyone just ignore this and move on is rather callous. I think you would feel differently if you were in the firing line. And I know it would be treated differently if it had come from an actual editor. Levivich (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding "struggling to understand why people are doing anything other than getting on with editing", there are many reasons, some of which have been already explained by various people. It's probably easier to understand the interest if you consider that it is not about the account. It's about an unusual, possibly unique event involving an unidentified external party. If the external party is non-neutral, and known to be non-neutral on matters related to ARBPIA, then that is very interesting and puzzling, and the nature of the case #1 could have been predicted and avoided. If the organization is a neutral party respected by all I would love to know who they are because it's hard to think of any. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Regardless of how policy fits in (NOTHERE maybe applies, PAID might or might not apply, preventative value is questionable at the moment), it might be good to wait some time. Just to to avoid compounding drama unnecessarily. MarioGom (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't consider this a 'drama' but merely a normal wikipedia airing of views from interested or curious parties about a procedure. I would just note that the editor's first #Nishidani presentation, at least a month's work if this has been ongoing since early February, was admitted to be quite skewed. No doubt it may be reformulated in impeccably classical terms as desired - one doesn't know - but while the plaintiff has 'world enough and time' to find new evidence, those to be indicted (aside from myself) are left sitting around, with a vague notification that they will probably be complained of, sometime in the indefinite future. And that 'state of suspension' in which this hesitation places them certainly does not facilitate in the interim serenity for their editing. I'm in no rush, personally, but formaldehyde is not my favourite working ambiance. It's rather a Kafkian dilemma one is dumped into between ein Zögern vor der Geburt and ein Zögern vor dem Wiedertod (a hesitation before rebirth or redeath- depending on the outcome in a future case) Nishidani (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Nishidani (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think this organization has any standing here, and the situation you've been put in is unfair. However, a block at this precise moment is likely to generate drama/noise (appeals, admin action review, wheel warring) without addressing the underlying issues. MarioGom (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

This is disgraceful, Arbcom. You’ve made an exception to a hard and fast rule so someone can post a cherry picked attack, using user rights that are normally granted and revoked through community processes. After basically using this exception to attack an editor, you’ve had a line of admins (count me among them) that would be happy to issue a NOTHERE block, but are using your soft powers to prevent that. You have chosen to bend over backwards in the name of transparency for this noneditor that you are subjecting editors (complaint #1?) to abuse. For absolute shame, Arbcom. Courcelles (talk) 17:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

For the sake of transparency, why has this motion been posted without the votes? Courcelles (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to have to object there. This is a much more Pinter-esque scenario. A true Waiting for Godot moment. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Resignation

Original announcement

It's a shame this isn't just a late April Fools' joke. Thanks for your service. 2604:3D08:4F83:4500:F092:6272:7C20:7D6D (talk) 12:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a pity, since you are someone I trust a lot for this position. Thanks for your service! MarioGom (talk) 12:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• GN, you rock for putting yourself forward and serving. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 13:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Really gutted to see this. Thank you very much for your service, GN. Giraffer (talk) 15:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Rip to a real one, sorry to see you out. jp×g🗯️ 15:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Sorry to hear this, but it's more important to do what one needs to, than to do volunteer work that feels uncomfortable. Best wishes. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)