Talk:Norse colonization of North America: Difference between revisions
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::::::::::All of which is speculative, and has no actual evidence to support it. Speculation is not fact. [[User:Mediatech492|Mediatech492]] ([[User talk:Mediatech492|talk]]) 03:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
::::::::::All of which is speculative, and has no actual evidence to support it. Speculation is not fact. [[User:Mediatech492|Mediatech492]] ([[User talk:Mediatech492|talk]]) 03:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Yes…, but it is a fact that highly credible academic researchers believed and continue to believe that Vinland was in southern New England, - in spite of a lack of concrete proof. |
:::::::::::Yes…, but it is a fact that highly credible academic researchers believed and continue to believe that Vinland was in southern New England, - in spite of a lack of concrete proof. |
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:::::::::::William Hovgaard, |
:::::::::::William Hovgaard, A.W. Brogger, Askell Love, Einar Haugen and Carl Sauer were not alone in holding this view. |
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:::::::::::It is not a “fringe” idea supported only by amateurs. |
:::::::::::It is not a “fringe” idea supported only by amateurs. [[Special:Contributions/2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6|2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6]] ([[User talk:2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6|talk]]) 04:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::That quoted text does not say that it says its a reasonable suggestion, that does not mean well founded. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 08:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
:::::::::::::That quoted text does not say that it says its a reasonable suggestion, that does not mean well founded. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 08:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Can you please clarify. The text you have in mind must be the same text pasted below. As I see it, the text '''''<u>does</u>''''' say it is "...reasonable..." to locate Vinland on the coast of New England or New York. |
::::::::::::::Can you please clarify. The text you have in mind must be the same text pasted below. As I see it, the text '''''<u>does</u>''''' say it is "...reasonable..." to locate Vinland on the coast of New England or New York. |
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:::On pages 278-279 Gisli Sigurdsson’s book has a heading—"Hoaxes, forgeries, and hard evidence”, - and he does a very good job quickly covering the topic. |
:::On pages 278-279 Gisli Sigurdsson’s book has a heading—"Hoaxes, forgeries, and hard evidence”, - and he does a very good job quickly covering the topic. |
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:::Final lines in Askell Love’s 1954 paper; - “…from the botanical evidence, it is concluded that the Icelandic settlement must have been situated somewhere on the coast from southern Maine to Long Island. From other geographical, nautical, and astronomical points of view it has been pointed out by several authors since Rafn's «Antiquitates Americanae» in 1837, that the Vineland settlements must have been on the southern shore of Cape Cod in Massachusetts. This is in line with the botanical testimony. All that is needed is archeological confirmation. It is highly desirable therefore that learned specialists from Scandinavia investigate archeological remains in this region before housing projects and unwise amateur archeologists have destroyed the possible evidence. |
:::Final lines in Askell Love’s 1954 paper; - “…from the botanical evidence, it is concluded that the Icelandic settlement must have been situated somewhere on the coast from southern Maine to Long Island. From other geographical, nautical, and astronomical points of view it has been pointed out by several authors since Rafn's «Antiquitates Americanae» in 1837, that the Vineland settlements must have been on the southern shore of Cape Cod in Massachusetts. This is in line with the botanical testimony. All that is needed is archeological confirmation. It is highly desirable therefore that learned specialists from Scandinavia investigate archeological remains in this region before housing projects and unwise amateur archeologists have destroyed the possible evidence. If the archeologist’s discoveries corroborate our other conclusions the «Vineland problem» will be solved.” |
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:::-------- |
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:::Robert Bergersen’s bibliography must have hundreds of listings covering archeology. Birgitta Wallace wrote a 'thumbs up' review that might be online somewhere. [[Special:Contributions/2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6|2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6]] ([[User talk:2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6|talk]]) 21:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
:::Robert Bergersen’s bibliography must have hundreds of listings covering archeology. Birgitta Wallace wrote a 'thumbs up' review that might be online somewhere. [[Special:Contributions/2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6|2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6]] ([[User talk:2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6|talk]]) 21:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::When did Wallace say Vinland couldn't be equated with Newfoundland? What she did say in 2003 was " With Straumfjord in northern Newfoundland and Hóp in northeastern New Brunswick, Vinland can be defined. Vinland comprised the coastal region around the Gulf of St. Lawrence, from the Strait of Belle Isle in the north, to the Northumberland Strait in the south. L'Anse aux Meadows-Straumfjord was part of Vinland and was the gateway to its rare and valuable resources.' See her comments also on grapes and salmon.[https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/nflds/article/view/140/236] [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 09:06, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
::::::::::When did Wallace say Vinland couldn't be equated with Newfoundland? What she did say in 2003 was " With Straumfjord in northern Newfoundland and Hóp in northeastern New Brunswick, Vinland can be defined. Vinland comprised the coastal region around the Gulf of St. Lawrence, from the Strait of Belle Isle in the north, to the Northumberland Strait in the south. L'Anse aux Meadows-Straumfjord was part of Vinland and was the gateway to its rare and valuable resources.' See her comments also on grapes and salmon.[https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/nflds/article/view/140/236] [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 09:06, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Her definitive statement – from 1986 – is pasted above, but it bears repeating. She wrote, […in an appendix to Gwyn Jones, “The Norse Atlantic Saga”, 2<sup>nd</sup> Edition, Page 300]; |
:::::::::::Her definitive statement – from 1986 – is pasted above, but it bears repeating. She wrote, […in an appendix to Gwyn Jones, “The Norse Atlantic Saga”, 2<sup>nd</sup> Edition, Page 300]; |
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:::::::::::'''''“But even without a slavish acceptance of every word of the sagas, there are certain board suggestions which make it impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland. |
:::::::::::'''''“But even without a slavish acceptance of every word of the sagas, there are certain board suggestions which make it impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland. All scattered references to Vinland make it plain that, compared with Markland, Vinland was more bountiful, the weather was warmer, the tides were higher, the resources more exotic, and, above all, more varied. As one source put it: the further south one traveled, the better the land became.”''''' [[Special:Contributions/2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F|2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F]] ([[User talk:2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F|talk]]) 12:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I see no reason not to accept her 2003 statement and assume she changed her mind about the one she made in 1986 . You keep writing "board", that must be broad". [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 12:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
::::::::::::I see no reason not to accept her 2003 statement and assume she changed her mind about the one she made in 1986 . You keep writing "board", that must be broad". [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 12:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Yes, ‘broad.’ Thank you for pointing that out. |
:::::::::::::Yes, ‘broad.’ Thank you for pointing that out. |
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:::::::::::::The problem is that she made her earlier statement in such a definitive way; ["certain, clear, and not likely to change”, Cambridge Dictionary.] |
:::::::::::::The problem is that she made her earlier statement in such a definitive way; ["certain, clear, and not likely to change”, Cambridge Dictionary.] |
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:::::::::::::Add to that all the other highly credible researchers who <u>also</u> reject Newfoundland as Vinland for many good reasons. |
:::::::::::::Add to that all the other highly credible researchers who <u>also</u> reject Newfoundland as Vinland for many good reasons. She may be promoting a “new and revised" view today, but it’s not convincing. Her earlier statement '''<u>IS</u>''' convincing. [[Special:Contributions/2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F|2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F]] ([[User talk:2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F|talk]]) 13:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::If a person changes their mind, we take their new stance, not an older one. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
::::::::::::::If a person changes their mind, we take their new stance, not an older one. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::And you, IP, are ''not'' at all convincing with these misleading and obfuscatory arguments. You should know that what ''you'' think about what the sources say has no standing. [[User:Carlstak|Carlstak]] ([[User talk:Carlstak|talk]]) 14:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
::::::::::::::And you, IP, are ''not'' at all convincing with these misleading and obfuscatory arguments. You should know that what ''you'' think about what the sources say has no standing. [[User:Carlstak|Carlstak]] ([[User talk:Carlstak|talk]]) 14:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::It is very surprising to see you now claiming I am using “misleading and obfuscatory arguments.” |
:::::::::::::::It is very surprising to see you now claiming I am using “misleading and obfuscatory arguments.” Please show where I’ve done that. Maybe it involves something related to Carl O. Sauer’s 1968 study mentioned earlier? |
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:::::::::::::::More about Sauer later, but here is another source that I will let speak entirely on its own as I believe I usually do with all these sources. |
:::::::::::::::More about Sauer later, but here is another source that I will let speak entirely on its own as I believe I usually do with all these sources. Maybe you will be happy with this one, but probably not-- British journalist/writer J. R. L. Anderson’s 1967 book “Vinland Voyage.” |
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:::::::::::::::[[iarchive:bwb_KO-185-292/mode/2up|Vinland voyage : J. R. L. Anderson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]] |
:::::::::::::::[[iarchive:bwb_KO-185-292/mode/2up|Vinland voyage : J. R. L. Anderson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]] |
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:::::::::::::::[[J. R. L. Anderson|J. R. L. Anderson - Wikipedia]] |
:::::::::::::::[[J. R. L. Anderson|J. R. L. Anderson - Wikipedia]] |
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:::::::::::::::[https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/03/vinland-vikings-guardian-expedition-america-1966 Guardian expedition in search of Vinland sets sail from Scarborough - archive, 1966 | Sailing | The Guardian] |
:::::::::::::::[https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/03/vinland-vikings-guardian-expedition-america-1966 Guardian expedition in search of Vinland sets sail from Scarborough - archive, 1966 | Sailing | The Guardian] |
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:::::::::::::::In 1966 he put the Vinland saga navigation information to the test, sailing a 44-foot cutter from England to Iceland, and on to North America. |
:::::::::::::::In 1966 he put the Vinland saga navigation information to the test, sailing a 44-foot cutter from England to Iceland, and on to North America. He ended the voyage by sailing into Nantucket Sound and going ashore on Martha’s Vineyard Island. If you want to be truly informed about the Vinland debate, be sure to take the time to read his book. |
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:::::::::::::::Here are a few of many quotes from it that speak firmly against Newfoundland as Vinland. |
:::::::::::::::Here are a few of many quotes from it that speak firmly against Newfoundland as Vinland. |
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:::::::::::::::Pg. 111- “There is a Newfoundland school in modern Vinland history, which holds that the main Norse settlements in Vinland were on Newfoundland. This theory has attractions, but there are grave objections to it. The more I considered my own studies, and what I learned in Iceland, the more improbable it seemed to me that Vinland was to be found in Newfoundland.” |
:::::::::::::::Pg. 111- “There is a Newfoundland school in modern Vinland history, which holds that the main Norse settlements in Vinland were on Newfoundland. This theory has attractions, but there are grave objections to it. The more I considered my own studies, and what I learned in Iceland, the more improbable it seemed to me that Vinland was to be found in Newfoundland.” |
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:I agree. If no hard evidence can be shown for this, then it's time to move along. [[User:Mediatech492|Mediatech492]] ([[User talk:Mediatech492|talk]]) 11:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
:I agree. If no hard evidence can be shown for this, then it's time to move along. [[User:Mediatech492|Mediatech492]] ([[User talk:Mediatech492|talk]]) 11:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::I firmly disagree. You are attempting to shut down discussion covering a topic that has been under debate for over 300 years now. |
::I firmly disagree. You are attempting to shut down discussion covering a topic that has been under debate for over 300 years now. [[Special:Contributions/2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F|2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F]] ([[User talk:2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F|talk]]) 14:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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I've added more modern sources and slightly expanded that section. (Feel free to trim anything out, if I've gone off topic.) Regarding [[Carl O. Sauer]] and [[J. R. L. Anderson]], more recent peer-reviewed work within the field of history contradicts their speculations. It's not especially weird for someone highly respected in one field to publish something out of pocket in another (see [[WP:PULP]]). [[User:Rjjiii|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">Rjj<sup>iii</sup></span>]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii#top|talk]]) 02:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
I've added more modern sources and slightly expanded that section. (Feel free to trim anything out, if I've gone off topic.) Regarding [[Carl O. Sauer]] and [[J. R. L. Anderson]], more recent peer-reviewed work within the field of history contradicts their speculations. It's not especially weird for someone highly respected in one field to publish something out of pocket in another (see [[WP:PULP]]). [[User:Rjjiii|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">Rjj<sup>iii</sup></span>]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii#top|talk]]) 02:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Will Magnus Magnusson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Magnusson and his co-author Herman Palsson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_P%C3%A1lsson,''"…one of the most distinguished scholars of Icelandic studies of his generation"— continue to be dismissed here as "unreliable" or "out of date"? |
Will Magnus Magnusson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Magnusson and his co-author Herman Palsson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_P%C3%A1lsson,''"…one of the most distinguished scholars of Icelandic studies of his generation"— continue to be dismissed here as "unreliable" or "out of date"? |
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Their 1965 book "The Vinland Sagas" is still considered to be essential reading in this field. Someone also claimed above that Carl O. Sauer, the highly respected geographer, was "...fringe…" for proposing that Irish Monks may have crossed the Atlantic before the 11th century Icelanders and Greenlanders. Sauer’s proposal was never considered as “fringe” by mainstream historians. It may have been “bold,” but it rested on widely accepted sources such as Dicuil, Ari the Learned, and Landnamabok, that suggested Irish Monks may have reached both Iceland and Greenland before the Norse did. |
Their 1965 book "The Vinland Sagas" is still considered to be essential reading in this field. Someone also claimed above that Carl O. Sauer, the highly respected geographer, was "...fringe…" for proposing that Irish Monks may have crossed the Atlantic before the 11th century Icelanders and Greenlanders. Sauer’s proposal was never considered as “fringe” by mainstream historians. It may have been “bold,” but it rested on widely accepted sources such as Dicuil, Ari the Learned, and Landnamabok, that suggested Irish Monks may have reached both Iceland and Greenland before the Norse did. |
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Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/article/67/3/497/147772/Charles-E-Nowell-1904-1984 accepted Sauer's proposal. In a book review in Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. The claim made above that Carl O. Sauer is “fringe,” or an “unreliable source” is ridiculous. |
Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/article/67/3/497/147772/Charles-E-Nowell-1904-1984 accepted Sauer's proposal. In a book review in Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. The claim made above that Carl O. Sauer is “fringe,” or an “unreliable source” is ridiculous. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F |
Revision as of 13:37, 22 April 2024
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Wiki Education assignment: FYSEM-UA 900 Busting 11 myths about the archaeology of human evolution
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ArjunChikkappa (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Jaelienrivera.
Undiscussed move
This article was moved from colonization to exploration, without any discussion or consensus, by a request initiated by @Treetoes023. From what I recall on this talk page, such a change was previously discussed and did not reach consensus, the article clearly discusses settlements (colonies) and also the concept itself of Norse colonization, so I don't think the name was wrong or that the new name is an improvement. This should have been discussed here first, and I think until consensus is reached the page should be moved back to its prior name. TylerBurden (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- I have reverted the move because of the previous RM. Srnec (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
True discoverers of Greenland.
This page doesn’t mention anything about Gunnbjörn Ulfsson who was the first to sight Greenland and Snæbjörn galti Hólmsteinsson who was the first to land on Greenland in 978. Plus on Erik the Red’s biography it says he landed on Greenland in 982 but here it says 986. MaxwellWinnie102 (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Are you referring to Gunnbjörn's skerries? Moxy-
00:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Attempting to remove a false statement.
A long apologia for an outdated source.
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I hope to see this brief statement removed because it is false--- "There are many claims of Norse colonization in New England, none well founded." Well, here is the problem.... Many people today have been led to believe that only rank amateurs and starry-eyed romantics believe the Norse exploration of North America includes the area of New England. In fact, the weight of scholarly opinion has placed Vinland in the area of southern New England- for well over 100 years now. See page eight of Magnusson and Palsson's 40-page introduction in "The Vinland Sagas', [Penguin Classics]. They wrote- "...generally speaking, the most acceptable interpretation of the elusive information in the sagas suggests that Vinland was somewhere in the New England region, and the majority of scholars have inclined to this view." Some Canadians who are heavily invested in L'anse aux Meadows don't like to hear this, but it is still true today over sixty years after Magnusson & Palsson made that observation. Theories placing Vinland in Southern New England ARE well founded. Even Carl Ortwin Sauer, remembered today as America's greatest Geographer of the 20th century believed so, and added his two-cents to the Vinland debate in his 1968 book "Northern Mists." See Facebook- "Vikings? On Cape Cod? for more... 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 12:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Is this folklore, or modern scholarship trying to link folklore to a specific region? Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Something older - but a very quick read - would be Icelandic botanist Askell Love's 2-page paper from 1954- "Locating Vineland the Good." And then there is Robert Bergersen's 1997 "Vinland Bibliography; Writings Related to the Norse in Greenland and America." It is 411 pages long, with over 6000 entries.2601:18E:C380:1DC0:6782:E9C4:BD68:5CE6 (talk) 16:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Also, you appear to be posting from New Bedford, Massachusetts, which would explain a lot. Carlstak (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I think we can close this, as it is now circular. Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
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I've added more modern sources and slightly expanded that section. (Feel free to trim anything out, if I've gone off topic.) Regarding Carl O. Sauer and J. R. L. Anderson, more recent peer-reviewed work within the field of history contradicts their speculations. It's not especially weird for someone highly respected in one field to publish something out of pocket in another (see WP:PULP). Rjjiii (talk) 02:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Please produce this “…more recent peer-reviewed work that contradicts their speculations."
Who wrote it, and where can we read it?
Will Magnus Magnusson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Magnusson and his co-author Herman Palsson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_P%C3%A1lsson,"…one of the most distinguished scholars of Icelandic studies of his generation"— continue to be dismissed here as "unreliable" or "out of date"?
Their 1965 book "The Vinland Sagas" is still considered to be essential reading in this field. Someone also claimed above that Carl O. Sauer, the highly respected geographer, was "...fringe…" for proposing that Irish Monks may have crossed the Atlantic before the 11th century Icelanders and Greenlanders. Sauer’s proposal was never considered as “fringe” by mainstream historians. It may have been “bold,” but it rested on widely accepted sources such as Dicuil, Ari the Learned, and Landnamabok, that suggested Irish Monks may have reached both Iceland and Greenland before the Norse did.
Professional historian Charles E. Nowell (1904–1984) https://read.dukeupress.edu/hahr/article/67/3/497/147772/Charles-E-Nowell-1904-1984 accepted Sauer's proposal. In a book review in Jan. 1973 Geo. Review, Nowell said Sauer’s proposal that L’anse aux Meadows “…could as well have been Irish as Norse," was worthy of recognition. The claim made above that Carl O. Sauer is “fringe,” or an “unreliable source” is ridiculous. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:F15B:D5B2:1F4C:C0F
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