Talk:Gaza Strip famine

DYK

Anyone interested might consider making this a DYK proposal, to the credit of its creator and main editor. Nishidani (talk) 10:15, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

DUE concerns

Hi @טבעת-זרם, thanks for your recent edits to the page. I've moved some of the material you added, because I couldn't find any reliable or high quality sourcing that said that Hamas' actions played a major role in the creation of the famine. The sources you listed seemed to discuss a handful of incidents affecting several shipments on aid (neither the Ynet nor JPost article even mentions the word "famine"), whereas the famine itself seems to be a systematic issue affecting more than half a million people (much larger than several shipments of allegedly stolen goods). I'd be eager to see if there is any reliable sourcing from any major humanitarian organizations (B'tselem, UNOCHA, etc.) that includes Hamas' actions as a primary cause of the famine. Until then, though, placing those incidents in such a prominent position is a major WP:DUE concern. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 21:01, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Any familiarity with aid to famine-struck countries, or people who have worked in this area, will tell one that pilfering or taxing of aid shipments by warlords is part of the course, but is not a factor in the rise or continuation of a state of famine itself. To assert on the basis of some misappropriations that this is relevant to a famine on the scale of a place like Gaza is to purvey, absent any serious official report, propaganda and has no place here. Nishidani (talk) 00:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 March 2024

In the last line of "Before the War" section:

Change:

"Israel gunships reportedly fired on local fishermen even within these areas."

To:

"Israeli gunships reportedly fired on local fishermen even within these areas."

(poor grammar) Hermes Thrice Great (talk) 13:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

 Erledigt Jamedeus (talk) 17:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"Experts warned that the famine in the Gaza Strip was the worst instance of man-made starvation in nearly 100 years"

The source quotes one person (Alex de Waal): "“The rigor, scale and speed of the destruction of the structures necessary for survival, and enforcement of the siege, surpasses any other case of man-made famine in the last 75 years” . This is not to belittle the gravity of the situation in Gaza, but the sentence needs to be more accurate, otherwise it sounds like hyperbole, given for example the number of people affected by the Famine in Yemen (2016–present) or 2017 South Sudan famine. Kershatz (talk) 09:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Lede

Old: "There is a catastrophic-level food crisis with increasing risk of famine..."

Suggested new: "There is a famine..."

[1] DenverCoder19 (talk) 00:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

More citations: [2]

I'm changing it. DenverCoder19 (talk) 21:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources in the lede

Both sources in for the first sentence stating that there is a famine, caused by Israel, are opinion pieces in the Guardian. That's hardly sufficient for a statement of fact. I would suggest to either rephrase it as that being the opinion of some commentators, or find better sources for the claim. 158.174.186.54 (talk) 05:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Per WP:ARBECR, non EC editors may only file edit requests

Agreed. It seems most sources do not unequivocally declare there is a famine, but that various aid groups are warning of one if conditions don't improve. How have we handled this topic previously? PrimaPrime (talk) 23:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Opinion pieces are not reliable sources per Wikipedia so they can't be used as sources of fact. I will check this.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a descriptive title rather than a commonname so I removed the bolding. According to a recent Guardian article, "The US comments add to a growing and powerful consensus that Israel’s military offensive in the Palestinian coastal territory has triggered a famine." Selfstudier (talk) 18:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Article Title

I was always under the impression that Wikipedia did not make up facts but here we are with an article titled "Gaza Strip Famine" when the UN nor any of the other agencies charged with declaring famines has done so. Shouldn't the title therefore be "Food insecurity in the Gaza Strip" at least until an actual famine breaks out?Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Even the US state department had noted the likelihood of famine, in addition to the UN report on the universal starvation. And "food security crisis" wouldn't be the next step down were a change merited – the ubiquitously reported phraseology of "man-made starvation" would be. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

As per section above and the ref provided, there is a "growing and powerful consensus" that a famine has been triggered. And that was before the US comments. Of course you may bring sources that dispute this, as usual. The question of who is charged with declaring a famine is a bit complicated but in any case declarations are in general after the event has already occurred. Selfstudier (talk) 20:12, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The point is Wikipedia editors can't make up names for events themselves. When the UN declares a famine then this page should be called the "Gaza Strip famine" not when editors think a famine has begun. We are fact checkers who shouldn't declare a famine. That only serves to discredit Wikipedia as a non-biased media. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Who says the UN is the final arbiter? The UN is a very lagging indicator even by Wikipedia standards. The WHO said famine was imminent two weeks ago, before another two weeks of starvation. Now the second and third largest providers of meals have suspended operations, and sources are reporting famine conditions. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It’s possible that editors may have made mistakes or misread/misinterpreted sources. I caught the mistake back in February in my edits here [3]. Situation has gotten worse since then which is probably why other editors changed the lead back to say famine. The first sentence in the current lead seems appropriate given different sources seem to classify it differently. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

US officials are privately warning the US Adminstration that famine conditions have set in. (Today's news). Iskandar323 (talk) 20:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Democracy Now? That's your source? Could you find a more far-Left pro-Palestinian biased Media outset. What does the UN say? Not a famine so the title of the page shouldn't be famine. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussions about sources should be held at WP:RSN. For now, Democracy Now is a reliable source. See also BBC at [4]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Direct quote from the New York Times article today:

“For me, what is important is to basically say that look, technically we haven’t met the conditions of a famine, and frankly we don’t want to meet those conditions,” said Arif Husain, the chief economist of the World Food Program.

I would say the chief economist of the World Food Program stating "we haven’t met the conditions of a famine" means we can't call this page "Gaza Strip Famine." That could change but it's not yet the reality. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Other than being a technical term defined by WFP for its own internal purposes, the English word famine also has a common, widely understood meaning, and that is of extreme scarcity of food[5]. That's the primary meaning, and we're perfectly within our policies to use the term as an article title here. At the same time, we may well decide to disregard certain media sources that might, for a variety of reasons, refer only to the WFP definition. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

If you think they are misquoting US officials, please take it up at RSN. Otherwise, their political polarity is irrelevant. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

NYT as of 3 March "It is unclear exactly what authority could declare a famine in Gaza. The I.P.C. group said the process typically involves the government in a country and its top U.N. official. Determining who that authority would be in Gaza was beyond the organization’s scope, it said."

A second IPC analysis was done according to which "the conditions necessary to prevent Famine have not been met" and "According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence" and anyway as is stated in a reliable source, the consensus is that a famine has been triggered regardless. Selfstudier (talk) 21:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is CBS yesterday "international aid agencies say over 1 million people — half of Gaza's population — are now in the midst of a famine." Add to this the reported deaths from hunger, then arguing that there is not a famine seems a little bit out of touch.Selfstudier (talk) 21:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Same article you cited from NYT states, "Since the I.P.C. was developed in 2004, it has been used to identify only two famines: in Somalia in 2011, and in South Sudan in 2017." That's pretty clear about who can declare a famine, The I.P.C. group. In this instance they have not therefore we Wikipedians should not either. This title should be changed to something less extreme but reflective of the gravity of the situation. I suggested "Food insecurity crisis in the Gaza Strip" which skandar323 reverted and claimed was euphemistic. I can understand that as a self described supporter of the Palestinian cause they might be passionate about this topic and feel that using famine in the title will create a sense of urgency but you could just as easily say it's sensationalizing the situation for a political purpose. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 21:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993(2), are you saying that your edits are absolutely impartial? — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Kashmiri, I'm not out here promoting a narrative. I'm trying to get Wikipedia to keep to its roots which is about facts. In this discussion we have had what I would consider a fair discussion about whether we should be using the word famine IN THE TITLE of this article. I think it's clear that a famine has not yet been established as factual. That doesn't mean "famine like conditions" don't exist and that's reflected in the article but it just because some people die or hunger doesn't mean they died in a famine. Famine is a noun and Gaza strip famine is a proper noun for something that simply has not yet to come into wide spread use. That could change very very soon for all I know but Wikipedia should not be creating a narrative it should be stating facts. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a lot more concise than Man-made starvation of the Gaza Strip. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993(2), your today's attempt to remove an image from Wikipedia because you considered it highly offensive to most Jews who consider the genocide accusation as blood libel don't give an impression that you're only here to keep [Wikipedia] to its roots which is about facts. Or how should I construe it? — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The recent sources are pretty clear about it and btw, the IPC does not declare a famine, that's just false. Selfstudier (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The IPC is used to declare famine [6].

I would support changing the title if it were December 2023 or even February 2024, but I am not so sure now since there are some sources saying that there might already be famine and also the second IPC report predicted famine in mid-March to mid-July. [7] It’s possible famine could be declared any day now, or even occurring. Most sources are saying “looming famine” or similar. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

"Authorities" make use of the IPC, but the IPC are not the ones who declare a famine, they provide technical input to the relevant authorities, who then make a declaration. The point I was making above is that there is no clear "authority" for Gaza to do the declaring but that the IPC in its latest review has said " "According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence". Together with the US commentary and other sources, although it does not constitute an "official" declaration, it is not wrong imo to say that there is already famine.

Here is Sky News today "According to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification Initiative (IPC)'s latest report, North Gaza is already under famine conditions, with the rest of the territory risking the same fate by mid-July unless the situation changes dramatically." Selfstudier (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is why I wrote in my comment: The IPC is used to declare famine. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Self-described where? Out of curiosity... Iskandar323 (talk) 21:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

This article has clear WP:FUTURE problems. It’s listed as if there *is* an established widespread famine across the territory, yet most authoritative sources are only saying that there is a looming threat. If there is famine in one part of the strip, the article title should be Famine in the Gaza Strip, otherwise it appears like we have a serious WP:NCEVENTS (if not potential WP:POVTITLE) issue if this was given a proper event title *before* it actually reached the threshold to be the widespread its being presented to be.Mistamystery (talk) 05:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Excuse me, what exactly is the difference between Gaza Strip famine and Famine in the Gaza Strip? They both say the same thing except that the first is succinct. At the main war article, the relevant section is titled Gaza famine.

Although I don't see many pressing for any change, if there is a problem with the title, then propose an RM. Selfstudier (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that was a head-scratcher for me too. Updates: As of 22 April, there's a whole report from B'Tselem called "Manufacturing famine" AND an FP piece entitled: Why Aren’t We Talking More About the Famine in Gaza? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The difference is "Famine in the Gaza Strip" refers to general phenomena of famine wherever it may occur - be it local or widespread during the conflict, whereas "Gaza Strip famine" (or "The Gaza Strip famine" as it is described in the lede), is a presumed established event with title...except its not. At most, famine may have occurred in the north, and otherwise, has been severely warned to be close everywhere else, but by all professional accounts, it has not happened yet...and something likely to happen (and obviously let us hope it doesn't happen) doesn't mean we get to pre-declare an event.

Otherwise, the way the article currently reads (as a laundry list of items connected to general food availability issues, regardless of proximity to famine) the title should frankly be "Food insecurity in Gaza during the Israel-Hamas war".

Will run a RM soon but who knows if anyone else has anything to chime in on this. Mistamystery (talk) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

“ “Famine in the Gaza Strip" refers to general phenomena of famine wherever it may occur”

That actually makes sense! It does seem like an improvement and would be more accurate. A lot of sources also used “starvation” or “risk of starvation” early on. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Adding prepositions and declarative articles wouldn't fundamentally alter the meaning, but it would negatively impact concision. These elements are generally avoided where possible. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

It is better to be accurate and precise than concise. What Mistamystery said logically makes sense. The preposition makes it more descriptive, plus adding “in the” is only two very short words. “Candy in America” could refer to international brands such as Cadbury sold in American stores, while “American candy” would refer to brands like Hershey’s. Wafflefrites (talk) 05:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Has anyone said that the famine is not "man-made"?

The only sources I can find claiming that the famine is not "man-made" is from Israel, the alleged perpetrator of the crime. If all sources, including the UN secretary general claim that the famine is "man-made", and no one denies it except the perpetrator, I propose we add the phrase "man-made" to the lede. DenverCoder19 (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Idk, would it be a "quote"? Quotes are not that great in the lead. What you want is to say that this famine was caused by Israel, right? So maybe see if there are sources pinning it on them and go from there. Selfstudier (talk) 17:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The lead of the famine Wikipedia article lists war as one of the causes of famine, and war is man-made. The words “man-made” though would need to be put in quotes and attributed. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Do we need to distinguish this famine from another, non man-made famine in Gaza Strip? If not, then I can't see why this qualifier would be needed in the title. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

In use

Hi @DenverCoder19, can you remove the "in use" tag I just added as soon as you are over with your editing? This will help prevent edit conflicts. Cheers, — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 April 2024

After "On 1 April 2024, an Israeli drone fired three consecutive missiles at three cars belonging to the World Central Kitchen (WCK), killing seven aid workers who had been distributing food in the northern Gaza Strip, which has been pushed close to famine by Israel's siege and blockade during the Israel-Hamas war.", add "In response to the attack, both World Central Kitchen and Anera have paused their operations in Gaza." Tul10616 (talk) 00:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The existing AP source does not say operations were suspended. Jamedeus (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello! The sources come from Anera and WCK themselves:

https://www.anera.org/blog/anera-is-pausing-gaza-operations-amid-rising-threats-and-attack-on-wck/

https://www.worldcentralkitchen.org/news/gaza-team-update Tul10616 (talk) 03:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I recall reading somewhere that Anera may have restarted but in any case, this material seems more appropriate at the article dealing with the strike where it says " The attack led the World Central Kitchen to pause its operations in the Gaza Strip, along with other humanitarian and aid organizations operating there. Selfstudier (talk) 12:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 24 April 2024

Gaza Strip famine → Food insecurity in Gaza during the Israel-Hamas war – As per talk page discussion and sources provided in the article, while numerous warnings have been issued as to possible impending or "looming" famine, no formal declaration of famine has been made (either in North Gaza or elsewhere), let alone a WP:COMMONNAME achieved of "The Gaza Strip famine" as this article incorrectly and prematurely has attempted to declare. This is clear breach of WP:FUTURE and WP:NCEVENTS.

Taking the lead from the Center for Strategic and International Studies' most recent report, which believes there is Famine in North Gaza but otherwise affirms that there has yet to be "a formal declaration of famine in Gaza", the most neutral, general, categorical WP:DESCRIPTOR in use by CSIS and other expert bodies in such matters (that covers the full range of items discussed currently in the article) is "food insecurity".

This terminology covers related matters from famine all the way down the IPC scale, and given that the majority of the current article either covers food and nutrition matters all the way up to the standard threshold of famine, or speculates at the presence of famine prior to an official declaration, this article title should suffice until there is a change in official status.

I understand this is a sensitive topic, but our job here is to ensure neutral coverage of current events per WP:WACE. The most authoritative body that has chimed in thus far on the status of famine is the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, whose most recent report declared famine "imminent", with a likely future projected range of occurrence dates, but that's as far as its gotten.

We obviously can revisit this if there is an official declaration (and let us hope there isn't)...but there hasn't been, and this clear WP:NCEVENTS and WP:FUTURE breach must be remedied immediately. Mistamystery (talk) 05:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• Move. Some reliable sources predict that famine in Gaza is imminent, but Wikipedia is not a WP:CRYSTALBALL. Marokwitz (talk) 07:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)