Talk:Kidnapping of Naama Levy: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 22:13, 22 May 2024

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Requested move 20 May 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Kidnapping of Naama Levy be renamed and moved to Capture of of Naama Levy.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Kidnapping of Naama Levy → Capture of of Naama Levy – Naama Levy is not a civilian but rather an Israeli soldier. She was taken by militants from the Gaza Strip, making this an international incident and part of an act of war. It is more WP:CONSISTENT to use capture based on these examples: Capture of Saddam Hussein, Che Guevara#Capture, Manuel Noriega#Capture, Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed#Capture, interrogation, and torture, Capture of Manuel Briones etc. The article on Gilad Shalit says "was captured by Palestinian militants". The word "capture" is more WP:NPOV and doesn't imply a value judgement like "kidnapping" does. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Most of the examples you've given are of military leaders rather than regular troops. I think that the current name is more consistent with the other Israeli hostages, which are all Kidnapping or Killing of FOO. Mason (talk) 01:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. If we were to take nom's assertion that it should be "capture" because the incident was an act of war upon a military target, we would assume that the captive would be treated as a POW under International Human Rights Law, which we unfortunately know is not the case. In addition, WP:RS overwhelmingly refer to Levy as a "hostage" rather a POW, strengthening the case for kidnapping (or abduction). In this context "capture" is a POV term, rather than "kidnapped", which is the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME in WP:RS. Finally, per Smasongarrison, "kidnapped" is the WP:Consistent here. Longhornsg (talk) 04:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you show that "kidnapped" and not "captured" is WP:COMMONNAME? I did not find that to be the case. Can you also explain what is POV about "capture"?VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The pages related to the other hostages in Category:Israel–Hamas war hostage crisis are named:

Mason (talk) 22:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of lack of balls coward are you to say that a 19 year old peace activist girl who held some low ranking ceremonial non-combatant position in the IDF is a soldier that was captured as part of war?

What a cowardly castrated eunuch you must be Kvwiki1234 (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"What a cowardly castrated eunuch you must be" Keep it WP:CIVIL,@Kvwiki1234. Name calling does not help your argument. Mason (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are not (yet) a lot of scholarly sources on Naama Levy, but their case is quite similar to Gilad Shalit: both are IDF soldiers who were taken from Israel into Gaza and held by Hamas. I found a survey of scholarly sources shows capture to be more commonly used than kidnapping, albeit not by much. However, "capture" is more WP:NPOV than kidnapping, which carries a moral implication.

Caption text
Header text	"gilad shalit" "kidnapped"	"gilad shalit" "kidnapping"	Total (kidnapping)	"gilad shalit" "captured"	"gilad shalit" "capture"	Total (capture)
JSTOR	187	157	344	249	215	464
Taylor & Francis	103	86	189	156	133	289
Google scholar	585	611	1,196	844	689	1,533

VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or the title of the page could be just changed to Naama Levy, like in the page for Gilad Shalit. --78.208.128.133 (talk) 19:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She's only known for the one event, which typically means that the person doesn't get a biography. Mason (talk) 22:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is a grown adult soldier of a belligerent military. Calling this a "kidnapping" is intelligence-insulting. JDiala (talk) 07:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: This is a descriptive title, and the proposed wording is the correct way to describe a solder captured at a military base in an enemy operation. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Civilians and soldiers alike were dragged away into captivity as hostages, often raped and murdered in the process, not by a military organization but by a band of terrorists and their civilian supporters. No distinction was made between civilians and service people, except that a higher price is being extorted for the latter. "Kidnapping" is correct. "Capture" does not reflect what actually happened. Kidnapped, as in the similar articles, is a reflection of reality. Coretheapple (talk) 17:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Terrorists", as well you know, is a POV, not NPOV characterisation, just as "resistance fighters" would be POV, per MOS:TERRORIST. And yes, by a military organisation – regardless of its POV or NPOV characterisation. In targeted strikes, militant special forces raided military positions and captured soldiers. That component of events alone on that day – the taking of POWs for exchange with other POWs is a common thread throughout military history. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They were taken as hostages. Hostages are kidnapped. POWs are captured. Coretheapple (talk) 21:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It goes both ways.[1] O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever RS say O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 24: / Line 24: @@
 :What kind of lack of balls coward are you to say that a 19 year old peace activist girl who held some low ranking ceremonial non-combatant position in the IDF is a soldier that was captured as part of war?
 :What a cowardly castrated eunuch you must be [[User:Kvwiki1234|Kvwiki1234]] ([[User talk:Kvwiki1234|talk]]) 21:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
+::"What a cowardly castrated eunuch you must be" Keep it [[WP:CIVIL]],@[[User:Kvwiki1234|Kvwiki1234]]. Name calling does not help your argument. [[User:Smasongarrison|Mason]] ([[User talk:Smasongarrison|talk]]) 22:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 *There are not (yet) a lot of scholarly sources on Naama Levy, but their case is quite similar to [[Gilad Shalit]]: both are IDF soldiers who were taken from Israel into Gaza and held by Hamas. I found a survey of scholarly sources shows capture to be more commonly used than kidnapping, albeit not by much. However, "capture" is more [[WP:NPOV]] than kidnapping, which carries a moral implication.
 {| class="wikitable"