Talk:Rembrandt: Difference between revisions
→Should the lead section state that Rembrandt is a 'Dutch Golden Age painter'?: +change; the sentence could use some clarification. |
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:* '''Keep''' per discussion, re: Johnbod...[[User:Modernist|Modernist]] ([[User talk:Modernist|talk]]) 11:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC) |
:* '''Keep''' per discussion, re: Johnbod...[[User:Modernist|Modernist]] ([[User talk:Modernist|talk]]) 11:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:* '''Keep''' per Johnbod. I trust that the editors who crafted [[MOS:FIRSTBIO]] included the Petrarch example for a reason: to encourage prominent placement of the more useful link. [[User:Ewulp|Ewulp]] ([[User talk:Ewulp|talk]]) 01:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC) |
:* '''Keep''' per Johnbod. I trust that the editors who crafted [[MOS:FIRSTBIO]] included the Petrarch example for a reason: to encourage prominent placement of the more useful link. [[User:Ewulp|Ewulp]] ([[User talk:Ewulp|talk]]) 01:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:* '''Change''' – {{sbb}} {{u|Nico Gombert}} has a valid point regarding ambiguity. Inclusion of the wikilink to [[Dutch Golden Age painting]] is still valuable. However, relying on [[Dutch Golden Age painting]] to imply Rembrandt's nationality is kind of sloppy. We should follow a format exemplified by [[Raphael]], i.e. |
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::: '''Rembrandt''' was a Dutch painter, [[printmaker]], and [[Drawing|draughtsman]] of the [[Dutch Golden Age painting|Dutch Golden Age]]. |
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:: This shows the subject's nationality, which is standard per [[MOS:NATIONALITY]] and also follows the [[Degas]] example in [[MOS:ART]]. We don't necessarily need to wikilink [[Dutch people|Dutch]], but we should include it as a separate term from "Dutch Golden Age," which should link to [[Dutch Golden Age painting]] for fullness of context. [[User:AlexEng|<templatestyles src="Template:Color/styles.css" /><span class="tmp-color" style="color:#00C5CD">'''Alex'''</span><templatestyles src="Template:Color/styles.css" /><span class="tmp-color" style="color:#9CBA7F">'''Eng'''</span>]]<sup><small style="font-size:80%;">([[User_talk:AlexEng|<templatestyles src="Template:Color/styles.css" /><span class="tmp-color" style="color:#FF83FA">TALK</span>]])</small></sup> 23:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Posthumous
JAMA Ophthalmology published articles in 2018 and 2019, theorizing, then refuting, that both Rembrandt and Leonardo may have had undiagnosed exotropia (commonly, "walleye"), a type of strabismus—an eye misalignment. Exotropia typically leads to favoring one eye, leading to vision resembling those seen when painted on a flat canvas.[1][2]
- ^ Bates, Sofie (9 December 2019). "Why Rembrandt and da Vinci may have painted themselves with skewed eyes". sciencenews.org. Scince News. Retrieved 27 July 2022.
- ^ Ahmed F. Shakarchi and David L. Guyton (27 November 2019). "A Geometric Analysis of Eye Dominance Suggesting That Rembrandt and Leonardo da Vinci Had Straight Eyes After All". JAMA Ophthalmology. 138 (1). American Medical Association JAMA Network: 101–102. doi:10.1001/jamaophthalmol.2019.4603. Retrieved 27 July 2022.
I've removed this section as WP:UNDUE (and it was placed far too high). All top artists are plagued by this sort of thing. Note that a) the journal backed down, and b) as usual it was in the Christmas issue of the journal, no doubt alongside the studies on which chocolates the nurses take first from mixed boxes. Johnbod (talk) 15:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Moved discussion on captions
Why do you consider the caption edit "unscientific?" First of all, it's the incorrect name for the painting, which is "Winter Landscape" not winterlandscape. Second, there's no need for "Rembrandt only" in the description; it makes no sense. Knightoften (talk) 23:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is no need to discuss this childish nonsense.Taksen (talk) 06:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Why did you leave a message on my talk page? I cannot take you seriously, you are a beginner; the discussion should be here! Besides deleting is easier than adding, something that bothers me for years. Some Wikipedians like to think: What I don't know or have never heard of is unimportant and can be deleted, a dangerous attitude.Taksen (talk) 06:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- At some time I added: Rembrandt's only known seascape, The Storm on the Sea of Galilee (1633). This does not stand alone. There is another caption: The Shell (a cone snail) is the only known still life Rembrandt ever etched. Why didn't you change those too? Is it because your action is arbitrary? Between 1643-1647 Holland had a row of severe winters which influenced him. Taksen (talk) 05:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Taksen What? I left you a message because you reverted my edit. In order to avoid an edit war, it was best to speak with you personally. I did not delete anything.
- Well, for starters, you can pull up the image yourself and see the source, which plainly lists the painting's title, "Winter Landscape." This is the official name. Second, I did not change the others because they make sense grammatically. You did not write "Rembrandt's only known winter landscape," you wrote "Rembrandt only winterlandscape." There are no problems with those other captions; they are written grammatically correct in English. I think you are misunderstanding the issue.
- Lastly, I should warn you that beginning an edit war is cause to be blocked on WP. Knightoften (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- I hope everyone is happy with this. Johnbod (talk) 20:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Why a "Dutch Golden Age Painter"?
Surely we can agree that a "Dutch Golden Age Painter" is not a nationality. The problem with this is, of course, that not all people who were part of the "Dutch Golden Age" were actually Dutch. Granted, most painter were, but definitely not all of them, and most definitely not all scientists or philosophers. Secondly, apart from Jan Steen and Frans Hals, I don't see this practice in many other articles. The article on Johannes Vermeer for instance says something completely different, the same goes for Gerard ter Borch or Samuel van Hoogstraten. It would've been much better to include this at a later moment in the lede. Nico Gombert (talk) 21:41, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- No it isn't a nationality, but it is what Rembrandt was and by far the most useful link to have at the start of the article, and includes his nationality. There are PLENTY of other articles starting like this - if you see some that don't it would be helpful to change them, if helpful edits are what you do! WHY would it "have been much better to include this at a later moment in the lede"? Do we really want to send people off to read Dutch people or even Dutch Golden Age?? Your first sentence: "Surely we can agree that a "Dutch Golden Age Painter" is not a nationality. The problem with this is, of course, that not all people who were part of the "Dutch Golden Age" were actually Dutch. Granted, most painter were, but definitely not all of them, and most definitely not all scientists or philosophers. " is both irrelevant and off-topic. What has this to do with it? Please explain. Johnbod (talk) 17:51, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agree that "Dutch Golden Age Painter" is the more useful context. Note that MOS:FIRSTBIO uses the lead sentence of Petrarch as a good example: "a scholar and poet of Renaissance Italy", not "Italian scholar and poet" or "Aretine scholar and poet". Similar case. Ewulp (talk) 23:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- My entire point is that it doesn't include his nationality. And it objectively doesn't, because there were lots of people who were part of the Dutch Golden Age who weren't Dutch. Why does this need explanation? Descartes was part of the Dutch Golden Age, just as Pierre Bayle, John Locke and Clara Peeters; yet they weren't Dutch. There are indeed other articles that write "a Dutch Golden Age painter", but there are also lots of articles who don't do this. My point is that it would be better to change the first category rather than the second.
- In that light the example you gave of Petrarch is telling. First of all, there are plenty of articles of the Italian Renaissance who don't start like that (Michelangelo, Da Vinci and Dante are all Italian) and secondly the Italian Renaissance is (of course) fundamentally different from the Dutch Golden Age. (In that light the example is flawed.) Nico Gombert (talk) 12:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- "Dutch Golden Age Painter" has a certain convenient ambiguity (as to "Dutch"). I wouldn't use it for eg the German Ludolf Bakhuizen, though he only took up art in Holland. We have a similar useful redirect for Italian Renaissance painter which is often used, and should be used more. You've made your position clear, but so have Ewulp & I, preferring the version we've had for years, here and elsewhere. Back it goes. Johnbod (talk) 15:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- So Ewulp and you are dictating what happens on Wikipedia? Your arrogance is really astonishing. First of all, this discussion has just been opened and I have only heard the opinion of one other person who hasn't even responded to my response (Ewulp). Secondly, your arguments make no sense whatsoever. The example you give of Bakhuizen is exactly an argument for my reasoning, namely that there are painters who are not Dutch, but are still part of the Dutch Golden Age. How do you intend to make that difference clear by only stating "Dutch Golden Age painter"?
- Moreover, your statement "We have a similar useful redirect for Italian Renaissance painter which is often used" is simply not true, as I've proved above. Nico Gombert (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Your edit summary on 30 May, reverting me, said "There is a discussion now on the talk page for some time.." - now it hasn't started yet, apparently! Frankly none of your last makes any sense at all - please rephrase comprehensively. I don't know how many people you were expecting to join the discussion - 3 isn't a bad turnout these days, especially when two are extremely experienced editors in this area (though one has fewer than 20 edits). Johnbod (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- What is your problem with this pathetic behavior? I obviously meant that I initiated a conversation on the talk page - which you insisted - but you refused to participate. Can you please explain your rude and pathetic reaction?
- Apparently if you have fewer than 20 edits your opinion doesn't count? Up until now I haven't heard one sensible argument from the extremely experienced editor that you claim to be. Nico Gombert (talk) 11:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Painters who are identified with the Dutch Golden Age but are not Dutch are identified in the lead sentence as German (Bakhuizen), Flemish (Peeters), etc. which eliminates ambiguity, just as non-Italian artists active in Italy during the Italian Renaissance are identified (e.g., Giulio Clovio, Jacques Arcadelt). Your allegation that the redirect for Italian Renaissance painter is not often used is hardly proven by checking three articles; try googling "was an Italian Renaissance painter" site:en.wikipedia.org & notice copious results. To insist on a change with no consensus looks like "dictating what happens on Wikipedia". Ewulp (talk) 01:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing that people are using it, however, the three most important figures of that period are not being referred to as such (Michelangelo, Dante, Da Vinci). The same goes for Botticelli, Brunelleschi, Donatello, Raphael and Masaccio. So really, what are you talking about? By far the most important figures do not adhere to the practice you claim is being used.
- And also, how can consensus be reached if it isn't even attempted (by reacting on each others arguments for instance, by engaging in a rational conversation). The practice at the moment seems to be that John, who considers himself very experienced on Wikipedia, is therefore more entitled to seeing things go his way? That my friend is "dictating what happens on Wikipedia". With sentences like: "You've made your position clear, but so have I. Back it goes." It's almost comical. Nico Gombert (talk) 11:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, that's clever! But depressingly few actually used the Italian Renaissance painter link (more now - see my last edits). Readers were linked to Italians, Renaissance, Italian Renaissance, List of Italian painters, and painting. If, as is probably the case, Nico Gombert can't see what's wrong with that, I give up. Please remind me why two very experienced art editors reverting to keep the long-established text is 'astonishingly arrogant', but an editor who has only ever edited two art pages reverting them to restore his new text is not. Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not clever at all in my opinion, because people who don't know that practice (which is logical, since they don't read all those other pages) are not aware that there is a difference. I'm baffled that someone with the gigantuous experience that John has, is apparently not capable of seeing that. Apart from that, the Italian Renaissance is vastly different from the Dutch Golden Age (i.e. the DGA was far more international and multi-cultural). Especially for the Dutch Golden Age it should be made clear that there is a difference between nationality and participation to that specific cultural-historical period. This is impossible to achieve with your suggestion, because people won't check pages like that of Bakhuizen to see if there's a difference in nationality. Nico Gombert (talk) 11:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm just not seeing your problem at all: We say "Ludolf Bakhuizen[1][2] (28 December 1630 or 1632 – 7 November 1708) was a German-born Dutch painter, draughtsman, calligrapher and printmaker.[3] He was the leading Dutch painter of maritime subjects after Willem van de Velde the Elder and Younger left for England in 1672." I have to say "the DGA was far more international and multi-cultural" seems a most dubious statement! Johnbod (talk) 14:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- What's dubious about it? It seems to me to be a completely logical and uncontroversial statement.
- Secondly, I'm not departing from Bakhuizen's article, because I'm in agreement with that. His background is indeed perfectly clear when you read that article. However, if one reads "Rembrandt, a Dutch Golden Age painter", then one is a. not aware of the fact that "a Dutch Golden Age painter" is not the same as a "Dutch painter" and (logically) b. it isn't entirely clear if Rembrandt belongs in that category or another.
- Ewulp wrote "Painters who are identified with the Dutch Golden Age but are not Dutch are identified in the lead sentence as German (Bakhuizen), Flemish (Peeters), etc. which eliminates ambiguity". But this is problematic since readers of the article are not at all aware of the fact that this distinction is being made. How does a reader who has no clue of Dutch Golden Age painting knows this? Nico Gombert (talk) 16:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is it possible you may be overthinking this "problem"? We assume that Wikipedia readers have basic competence. Are you worried that readers of Virginia Woolf will be confused by her description as "an English writer" – that they will interpret this to mean that she was "a writer who wrote in English" and miss the broad hint that her nationality was English? Do you consider "American blues musician", "German filmmaker", "Italian automobile engineer" and the like similarly problematic? (A player of American blues or a designer of Italian cars could be of any nationality.) It seems to me that your hypothetical "reader who has no clue of Dutch Golden Age painting" is especially unlikely to be confused; they will see Rembrandt described as a "Dutch ... painter" and understand the plain meaning – why wouldn't they? No more confusing than "French Romantic painter" or any number of other phrases. As already noted, the Petrarch example given above is presented in MOS:FIRSTBIO as a model of a good opening sentence, even though not everybody associated with the Italian Renaissance was Italian. Ewulp (talk) 00:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- No I'm not overthinking this, but I fear that you are completely missing my point. My point is: being an "American blues musician", "German filmmaker", "Italian automobile engineer" is something fundamentally different from "a Dutch Golden Age painter" or "an Italian Renaissance painter". The first examples unambiguously refer to the nationality, whereas the second examples don't. For "a Dutch Golden Age painter" this is problematic, because there are other nationalities besides the Dutch nationality of painters who fall under the category of "Dutch Golden Age painter".
- The second problem is that an unknowing reader won't understand the difference between the two. They will think that all "Dutch Golden Age painters" are necessarily Dutch, which isn't the case. And again, your Petrarch example isn't being used by the majority of important figures of that period (I gave the examples above). Nico Gombert (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- To convince anyone there is an issue you would have to find the phrase being used on the page for an artist who wasn't Dutch, and raise it there. Rembrandt was Dutch & there is no problem. Johnbod (talk) 01:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're not reacting on my arguments. Yes, Rembrandt was Dutch, but that is not what is written. What is written is: "A Dutch Golden Age painter". Which is something different. Nico Gombert (talk) 08:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- As I said a looooong way above, the ambiguity is convenient: R was both a painter of the DGA, and a Dutch painter. Find a page where there is inaccuracy & complain about that there. You are just going round in circles here, & have attracted no support. Johnbod (talk) 12:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're not even attempting to engage with what I have to say. I really don't understand what your problem is. But I have enough of you, a RfC is the only thing that is sensible at this point. Nico Gombert (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- As I said a looooong way above, the ambiguity is convenient: R was both a painter of the DGA, and a Dutch painter. Find a page where there is inaccuracy & complain about that there. You are just going round in circles here, & have attracted no support. Johnbod (talk) 12:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're not reacting on my arguments. Yes, Rembrandt was Dutch, but that is not what is written. What is written is: "A Dutch Golden Age painter". Which is something different. Nico Gombert (talk) 08:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- To convince anyone there is an issue you would have to find the phrase being used on the page for an artist who wasn't Dutch, and raise it there. Rembrandt was Dutch & there is no problem. Johnbod (talk) 01:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is it possible you may be overthinking this "problem"? We assume that Wikipedia readers have basic competence. Are you worried that readers of Virginia Woolf will be confused by her description as "an English writer" – that they will interpret this to mean that she was "a writer who wrote in English" and miss the broad hint that her nationality was English? Do you consider "American blues musician", "German filmmaker", "Italian automobile engineer" and the like similarly problematic? (A player of American blues or a designer of Italian cars could be of any nationality.) It seems to me that your hypothetical "reader who has no clue of Dutch Golden Age painting" is especially unlikely to be confused; they will see Rembrandt described as a "Dutch ... painter" and understand the plain meaning – why wouldn't they? No more confusing than "French Romantic painter" or any number of other phrases. As already noted, the Petrarch example given above is presented in MOS:FIRSTBIO as a model of a good opening sentence, even though not everybody associated with the Italian Renaissance was Italian. Ewulp (talk) 00:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm just not seeing your problem at all: We say "Ludolf Bakhuizen[1][2] (28 December 1630 or 1632 – 7 November 1708) was a German-born Dutch painter, draughtsman, calligrapher and printmaker.[3] He was the leading Dutch painter of maritime subjects after Willem van de Velde the Elder and Younger left for England in 1672." I have to say "the DGA was far more international and multi-cultural" seems a most dubious statement! Johnbod (talk) 14:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not clever at all in my opinion, because people who don't know that practice (which is logical, since they don't read all those other pages) are not aware that there is a difference. I'm baffled that someone with the gigantuous experience that John has, is apparently not capable of seeing that. Apart from that, the Italian Renaissance is vastly different from the Dutch Golden Age (i.e. the DGA was far more international and multi-cultural). Especially for the Dutch Golden Age it should be made clear that there is a difference between nationality and participation to that specific cultural-historical period. This is impossible to achieve with your suggestion, because people won't check pages like that of Bakhuizen to see if there's a difference in nationality. Nico Gombert (talk) 11:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, that's clever! But depressingly few actually used the Italian Renaissance painter link (more now - see my last edits). Readers were linked to Italians, Renaissance, Italian Renaissance, List of Italian painters, and painting. If, as is probably the case, Nico Gombert can't see what's wrong with that, I give up. Please remind me why two very experienced art editors reverting to keep the long-established text is 'astonishingly arrogant', but an editor who has only ever edited two art pages reverting them to restore his new text is not. Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Painters who are identified with the Dutch Golden Age but are not Dutch are identified in the lead sentence as German (Bakhuizen), Flemish (Peeters), etc. which eliminates ambiguity, just as non-Italian artists active in Italy during the Italian Renaissance are identified (e.g., Giulio Clovio, Jacques Arcadelt). Your allegation that the redirect for Italian Renaissance painter is not often used is hardly proven by checking three articles; try googling "was an Italian Renaissance painter" site:en.wikipedia.org & notice copious results. To insist on a change with no consensus looks like "dictating what happens on Wikipedia". Ewulp (talk) 01:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Your edit summary on 30 May, reverting me, said "There is a discussion now on the talk page for some time.." - now it hasn't started yet, apparently! Frankly none of your last makes any sense at all - please rephrase comprehensively. I don't know how many people you were expecting to join the discussion - 3 isn't a bad turnout these days, especially when two are extremely experienced editors in this area (though one has fewer than 20 edits). Johnbod (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- "Dutch Golden Age Painter" has a certain convenient ambiguity (as to "Dutch"). I wouldn't use it for eg the German Ludolf Bakhuizen, though he only took up art in Holland. We have a similar useful redirect for Italian Renaissance painter which is often used, and should be used more. You've made your position clear, but so have Ewulp & I, preferring the version we've had for years, here and elsewhere. Back it goes. Johnbod (talk) 15:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Agree that "Dutch Golden Age Painter" is the more useful context. Note that MOS:FIRSTBIO uses the lead sentence of Petrarch as a good example: "a scholar and poet of Renaissance Italy", not "Italian scholar and poet" or "Aretine scholar and poet". Similar case. Ewulp (talk) 23:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Should "a Dutch Golden Age painter" be replaced?
In the text Rembrandt is referred to as "a Dutch Golden Age painter", not as a "Dutch painter". However, not all painters of the Dutch Golden Age were actually Dutch. Therefore, this is potentially confusing and definitely not accurate. Should this be replaced by a normal reference (e.g. "Dutch painter") to his nationality? Nico Gombert (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Bad RfC. The lead statement of an RfC must be neutral, and this one is not. An appropriate RfC statement would be "Should the lead section state that Rembrandt is a 'Dutch Golden Age painter'?". I've removed the RfC tag accordingly; please feel free to open an RfC with a neutral opening statement. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:41, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Should the lead section state that Rembrandt is a 'Dutch Golden Age painter'?
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In the text Rembrandt is referred to as "a Dutch Golden Age painter", not as a "Dutch painter". However, not all painters of the Dutch Golden Age were actually Dutch. Therefore, this is potentially confusing and definitely not accurate. Should this be replaced by a normal reference (e.g. "Dutch painter") to his nationality? Nico Gombert (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- (Summoned by bot) I think as Rembrandt was Dutch, and his works coincided with the Dutch Golden Age, it is perfectly reasonable to make this claim in the lead. However, a better phrasing may be:
- Rembrandt, was a Dutch painter, printmaker, and draughtsman of the Golden Age.
- Adam Black talk • contribs 21:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Then you get three fairly useless very general links, rather than the precise Dutch Golden Age painting - Nico Gombert has not explained that Dutch Golden Age painter redirects to Dutch Golden Age painting. Why not link painting - loads of artist bios do? Johnbod (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- You still don't understand a word of what I'm saying, it's really unbelievable. "The precise Dutch Golden Age painting"? My whole point is that it's precisely not precise when it's used as a reference to his nationality! Nico Gombert (talk) 12:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per lengthy discussion above. Johnbod (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per Johnbod's reasoning. Randy Kryn (talk) 09:00, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Change per Adam Black's reasoning above. Nico Gombert (talk) 10:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per discussion, re: Johnbod...Modernist (talk) 11:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per Johnbod. I trust that the editors who crafted MOS:FIRSTBIO included the Petrarch example for a reason: to encourage prominent placement of the more useful link. Ewulp (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Change – (Summoned by bot) Nico Gombert has a valid point regarding ambiguity. Inclusion of the wikilink to Dutch Golden Age painting is still valuable. However, relying on Dutch Golden Age painting to imply Rembrandt's nationality is kind of sloppy. We should follow a format exemplified by Raphael, i.e.
- Rembrandt was a Dutch painter, printmaker, and draughtsman of the Dutch Golden Age.
- This shows the subject's nationality, which is standard per MOS:NATIONALITY and also follows the Degas example in MOS:ART. We don't necessarily need to wikilink Dutch, but we should include it as a separate term from "Dutch Golden Age," which should link to Dutch Golden Age painting for fullness of context. AlexEng(TALK) 23:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Then you get three fairly useless very general links, rather than the precise Dutch Golden Age painting - Nico Gombert has not explained that Dutch Golden Age painter redirects to Dutch Golden Age painting. Why not link painting - loads of artist bios do? Johnbod (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
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