Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brighton hotel bombing/archive1

Brighton hotel bombing

Brighton hotel bombing (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 8 September 2024, 05:40 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Brighton hotel bombing/archive1

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 15:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

On 12 October it'll be forty years since the IRA's assassination attempt on the British Prime Minister and her cabinet. This article has been through a complete re-write recently, with the widest range of high-quality sources used. It's has an excellent and highly profitable and constructive PR, with comments from Tim O'Doherty, Ceoil, UndercoverClassicist, HJ Mitchell, RoySmith, MSincccc and Tim riley. I have hopes for a main page appearance on the anniversary, if it can possibly be done. Any thoughts and comments are most welcome. - SchroCat (talk) 15:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

What I didn't mention in the PR was that the reason I noticed it at all was that the NY Times crossword had just had THEIRONLADY as an answer. I wonder how many kids these days would even recognize the reference? I'll try to take a look, but I'm trying to get a bunch of other stuff done so can't commit. RoySmith (talk) 15:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Placeholder. I will return with any further suggestions once I have re-read the article. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 15:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

  Support-per my PR. MSincccc (talk) 16:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

PMC

I will try not to have popcorn thrown at me this time. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Grand-Hotel-Following-Bomb-Attack-1984-10-12.jpg: I'm confused by the licensing here - is this PD or CC? If PD, what is the source?

  CC. Licence now amended. - SchroCat (talk) 06:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Rockmore_road_1984.jpg: what's the copyright status of the mural?

  We have freedom of panorama in the UK, so I think it's OK. - SchroCat (talk) 06:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  From my understanding freedom of panorama in the UK doesn't cover 2D graphic works? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, Nikkimaria, I missed this yesterday, but was reading up this morning and see you're entirely correct. I've removed it - there are several hundred murals in NI and the rest of the UK resident on Commons, which is going to be fun for someone to tag to get rid of. - SchroCat (talk) 08:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Grand_Hotel_-_Brighton_bomb.jpg: why is a non-free image needed for this purpose? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  Oops, my bad. This was a placeholder only as someone on Commons is doing a free version, but it may take a while. Now removed until the free one is available. - SchroCat (talk) 06:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Many thanks Nikkimaria: all sorted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 06:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support following the PR; I've made some very minor copyedits since, at least one of which may be a little controversial. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support- per my PR. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support. My main worry at the beginning of the PR was that the reasons behind the hunger strikes were fairly described, even though the bombing itself was a horrific tragedy, and a shameful incident. The article is delicately balanced and fair and am happy to support. Ceoil (talk) 04:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

John

Oppose MOS:OVERLINK concerns and I'm not happy with the balance of the article. Why, for example, was Infobox civilian attack chosen? Other similar articles use a different one. The event was part of a war and the infobox should reflect that. Happy of course to discuss further. As it stands it does not represent our best work. "Feet" is the plural of "foot" last I heard! John (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oh joy. What overlink concerns (you can't just waive around a term without examples of where and why); ditto the "balance"? The IB pre-dated me and the same one is used on other IRA-related events, although there is no consistency in the choice over numerous similar articles. You last point is a straw man. Discuss if you must, but you need to provide examples, not vague generalisations. - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think John's comment on the infobox is a good point but maybe more for the talk page than here, as it could get emotive as we hash through. I have thoughts but will post them there. Ceoil (talk) 14:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not so sure: there are a couple of possible ones that could be used, but as there is no consistency in other IRA-related articles, there are multiple arguments for and against any of them. It's certainly not really a valid point on which to oppose, but nor is overlinking - particularly as the MoS is flexible on the point nowadays. Any oppose that does vague hand-waving, rather than raising specific points is invalid, but that would spoil the point of his stirring, I suppose. - SchroCat (talk) 15:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

While I agree on the current infobox choice, I'd like to trash it out on talk anyways as it might become an issue down the line. Overlinking, if an issue, is easily fixed. An oppose at this stage is only a position, its not final. Ceoil (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course Ceoil, my intention is to help bring it up to standard, and that's an iterative process. Overlinking as you say is easy to fix, and we can discuss the infobox issue in talk as you suggest. The 'foot/feet' issue is really one for primary education and I think that's a deal breaker for me, but we can even discuss that if the willingness is there. See you in article talk. John (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It’s already ‘up to standard’ and the lack of actionable points is notable. OVERLINKING isn’t an issue at all (again, if you want to try pushing that false line of argument, then you need to highlight examples after you’ve got up to speed with the guidelines). You’re still pushing a false straw man with the feet/foot point. - SchroCat (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I note that the other attempted assassination of a PM undertaken by the IRA in modern times (the Downing Street mortar attack, so probably the most similar of articles) uses the same box as this one. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I note, without necessarily rejoicing, User:John's return to WP to dispense his/her wisdom on the rest of us. I think we can ignore specious objections. Suggest we move on to some more constructive suggestions. Tim riley talk 17:23, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• "The Troubles were the conflict in Northern Ireland lasting from the late 1960s until the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, between the then majority population of unionists and the republicans minority." I would delete "then". It is clumsy and superfluous as any majority/minority can change over time.
• "The strike was to have Special Category Status (SCS) returned to prisoners." The wording implies that you have previously mentioned SCS. I would say when it had been introduced and withdrawn - by Thatcher?

  I've added a footnote with the dates. Not withdrawn by Thatcher, but under a Labour government - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• "Other prisoners also joined in the strike at intervals." I would say "Other IRA prisoners" for clarity. Did loyalist prisoners support the strike?

  I'll go with 'Other republican prisoners', as INLA were involved too. - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• "she wanted a military victory over the IRA and for "integration"". "wanted...for integration" does not seem grammatical to me.
• You should explain ASU at first mention.
• "He was given room 629, on the sixth floor facing the sea, chosen a high-level room as he thought that would be where Thatcher would stay; a high level for additional security, given striking miners might also occupy rooms in the hotel." This seems clumsy and unclear. You first imply that the hotel chose the room, then that he did. "chosen" grammatically appears to refer to the hotel. What is the relevance of striking miners? Would they have been allowed in but only in lower rooms?

Reworked to clarify. He asked for a high room and was given 629; they thought the miners might invade the hotel and occupy it, so thought Thatcher may have taken a higher level room to avoid it. Hopefully that's all clearer now. - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• "He was given room 629, on the sixth floor facing the sea, he asked for a high-level room". I think there should be a semi-colon or full stop after "sea". Dudley Miles (talk) 10:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• "deputy chief whip". Maybe "deputy chief whip".

  I've delinked, as we link Chief Whip in the previous sentence. - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• "That is the way we must respond such vile acts in this democracy". to such vile acts?
• "unless a majority of its citizens agreed to join the Republic" "voted to join the Republic"?
• "These were the successful assassinations on Mustafa Mohammed Ramadan, a Libyan journalist and Mahmoud Abbu Nafa, a Libyan lawyer. There were then assassination attempts on the British general Steuart Pringle; Michael Havers, the Attorney General for England and Wales and Attorney General for Northern Ireland; Shlomo Argov the Israeli ambassador to the UK; and Rahmi Gumrukcuoglu [tr], the Turkish ambassador to the UK." Were these assassinations all by the IRA? Why did they target foreigners? Also, for clarity I would specify "unsuccessful assassination attempts".

  Not IRA assassinations, but the police and security forces were examining a rise in such attempts in general, regardless of perpetrators (although some of these were by the IRA too). - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• I would clarify that they were not all IRA operations. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• Another first rate article by SchroCat. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:50, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you Dudley, that's very kind. I think I've covered them all in these edits, but happy to go back over them if you think it needs some more attention. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)