Talk:Juice Plus

Peer Review

It's pretty clear that we have some strong opinions about this article. An editor more senior than I has suggested a peer review of the article WP:PR and I think it is worth consideration. With more voices, I think we would be able to draw closer towards a consensus. I've never done this before so your thoughts would be valued.Citizen Don 03:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I too would welcome it. TraceyR 07:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Worth doing soon as a step toward WP:FAC but it might be best to wait until we get closer to finishing the section on the Plotnick study. WP:PR isn't for disupte arbitration, it is more along the lines of proofreading and QC. Rhode Island Red 22:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm assuming that part of the peer review would be for people other than the usual editors to look closely at the article and determine the relevance of much of the material. It's not about dispute arbitration. It's about the article and how it should be written. I believe EdJohnston made the initial suggestion and I think it may be a good one. What do others think?Citizen Don 05:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

GNLD Reference is Available on Company's Website

Previous dicussions [1] regarding the GNLD analysis of Juice Plus recommended removing the citation based on the claim that the report was not available on the company's website and had apparently been withdrawn. This is incorrect. The report is in fact available on GNLD's website [2]

I have therefore restored the link to the WP Juice Plus article. For fair balance, I have also added the qualification that the analysis was conducted by a competing supplement company. Rhode Island Red 17:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Rhode Island Red: It's a bit late to play April Fool! The fact that it had been withdrawn was not the only reason for its exclusion. As mentioned by EdJohnston in the appropriate thread at the time, "calling it an 'article' is a stretch. It's a marketing claim that's no longer being made (like a TV commercial that used to run at one time)." That it has been reinstated by GNLD (an MLM competitor to NSA) doesn't mean that it is an article worth citing. It gives no results, just ticks in boxes, it doesn't say who did the analysis and where, it doesn't claim that it was done objectively by a reputable institute, doesn't cite a peer-reviewed journal in which the results were published, tries to give the 'results' a veneer of science by citing four articles describing the methodologies which we are expected to believe were used in their 'analysis', mentions limits of detection which are supposed to have applied to their analysis - it's simply a low-grade, pseudo-scientific marketing brochure (as is indicated by the URL, which places it firmly in the business tools section of the GNLD website). If it weren't so amazing that it is being suggested as a serious source of criticism of Juice Plus it would be a huge JOKE! Please, please try a little mind game for a moment: imagine that this was being used as a source for a positive statement about Juice Plus in this article ... how would you react? The article deserves, nay demands better than this!TraceyR 18:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR: Your recent comments [3] misrepresent the history of our discussions [4] about this reference. You stated that the article was withdrawn by GNLD and that the chemical analysis is a marketing claim that is no longer being made. These assumptions appear to be false. I see no evidence that the analysis was ever withdrawn or recanted by GNLD, and given that this information is available on the company’s website, it is obviously a claim that GNLD stands behind.

In prior discussions, the primary reason why the GNLD analysis was suggested for deletion was because it did not appear that analysis was still available on GNLDs website, and this was the basis for its ultimate removal from the WP article. I had no objection to removing it on those grounds. These were the last comments made on the talk page: “Since the page has been withdrawn, the reference ought to go”. “It's a marketing claim that's no longer being made”. Obviously, these arguments do not apply.

One could argue that there are other reasons why the GNLD citation might not warrant inclusion, and that’s something that we can discuss, but let’s not misrepresent the outcome of the initial discussions. The earlier decision to remove was clearly based on the lack of availability of the article on GNLD’s website.

As a reminder, using sarcasm in Talk page discussions (i.e. the “April Fool’s” comment) is inappropriate. Please avoid sarcasm in the future and instead discuss the facts with objectivity and emotional detachment. Also, avoid use of all caps, bolding, and exclamation points “which are considering shouting and ranting…as it undermines a reasoned argument with the appearance of force” (cf.WP:TPG). Rhode Island Red 20:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

No sarcasm intended, nor 'shouting'. Consider the word "joke" to be in italic type if you like. I just find it so bizarre that this stuff is considered worthy of a mention when the conclusions of a peer-reviewed study in a renowned, respected journal are dismissed or at least considered unworthy of inclusion in the article. To avoid the suspicion of bias, let's at least have the same criteria applied universally.

Please consider the 'mind game' request mentioned above (and let us know the conclusions you reach and if possible the reasoning involved).

As for the GNLD page always having been available, just not visible to web searches - what is the effective difference between the two? It certainly isn't readily 'searchable' on the GNLD website (I have not located it yet); perhaps it's in an area with menu access restricted to distributors but available via the URL.

I don't actually remember anyone suggesting that the company had 'recanted' this marketing flyer, but I am open to correction there. Certainly it is a valid assumption that it had been withdrawn if all your efforts at the time to find it were fruitless.

I think that several reasons for not using this reference have already been given, for which a response would be welcome. Here they are, with a few more:

• It gives no results, just ticks in boxes
• it doesn't say who did the analysis and where
• it doesn't show that it was done objectively by a reputable institute
• it doesn't cite a peer-reviewed journal in which the results were published
• it tries to give the 'results' a veneer of science by citing four articles describing the methodologies which we are expected to believe were used in their 'analysis'
• it mentions limits of detection which are supposed to have applied to their analysis but doesn't give either sets of figures (GNLD and Juice Plus)
• the 'article' is in fact a foldover flyer which GNLD distributors can post to prospective customers (is this the new "gold standard" for wiki sources?)
• GNLD's products compete in the same market as Juice Plus - quoting this article is tantamount to providing GNLD with free advertising via wikipedia - something forbidden by wiki rules.

A discussion of the compelling reasons for the inclusion of this source would be most welcome TraceyR 22:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

My replies to TraceyR's comments follow:

"I just find it so bizarre that this stuff is considered worthy of a mention when the conclusions of a peer-reviewed study in a renowned, respected journal are dismissed or at least considered unworthy of inclusion in the article."

The GNLD reference is cited in the Criticism section, not the Research section of the article. As such it is not being presented as research. The criticism section is open to opinion from sources that do not necessarily present supporting scientific data; however, GNLD backed up their criticism with some data, which included referenced methodologies and detection limits showing that their analysis found that Juice Plus had non-detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lutein and lycopene. The GNLD analysis is clearly referred to in the WP article as having originated from a competing supplement company. It is not being misrepresented as a journal article but instead is accurately described as a criticism originating from a competitor. It seems to me that the GNLD reference has been used with a NPOV.

"As for the GNLD page always having been available, just not visible to web searches - what is the effective difference between the two? It certainly isn't readily 'searchable' on the GNLD website (I have not located it yet); perhaps it's in an area with menu access restricted to distributors but available via the URL."

You are making very arbitrary assumptions that are untrue. The site is visible by Google search; that is how I found it. Why is it relevant whether or not you were able to find it using GNLDs search engine? Why assume that it is only available via restricted access to distributors? This assertion is totally untrue. I was able to find the analysis by navigating the GNLD homepage and it was freely available without restrictions.

"I don't actually remember anyone suggesting that the company had 'recanted' this marketing flyer, but I am open to correction there. Certainly it is a valid assumption that it had been withdrawn if all your efforts at the time to find it were fruitless."

I didn’t put much effort into locating it again after I had originally posted the citation, at which time it was readily available. But why make any assumptions about whether it was withdrawn. Maybe they were retooling their website when you last looked. Perhaps you did not look very hard. This is beside the point. The analysis exists and it is on the company website.

"I think that several reasons for not using this reference have already been given, for which a response would be welcome. Here they are, with a few more...It gives no results, just ticks in boxes"

So? The information presented shows that the levels of the nutrients in Juice Plus were nondetectable. In what way could they have presented that data that would be more compelling to you? It would not have been accurate to list the values as zero and they certainly couldn’t present a chart or bar graph to show non-detectable levels.

"it doesn't say who did the analysis and where"

So? Presumably GNLD did the analysis. GNLD is taking responsibility for the data and claims presented. The WP article makes no claims that this was an independent analysis but instead attributes it to GNLD. I see no problem with this aspect. No WP policy mandates that the information you asked for is required.

"it doesn't cite a peer-reviewed journal in which the results were published"

That is irrelevant. It is not being cited as research, it is cited as criticism from a competing company that did their own analysis and reported their findings and opinions. No peer-reviewd journal would publish a study that merely reported a comparison of vitamin content between two products. Such a study would be considered to be extremely mundane and would certainly be reported through means other than peer-reviewed journals. It is akin to when NSA publishes label claims about the content of their product. We cite those claims without questioning how NSA conducted the analysis and if there is conflicting data, we mention that too.

"GNLD's products compete in the same market as Juice Plus - quoting this article is tantamount to providing GNLD with free advertising via wikipedia - something forbidden by wiki rules."

That is a highly subjective interpretation of WP policy regarding advertising. It is no more advertising when we mention GNLD's analysis than when we list the claims about nutrient content that NSA provides on the Juice Plus bottle label. Besides, Juice Plus has a whole WP page, GNLD has one single line of text. Whose product is receiving the bulk of the advertising? I don’t see how any WP policy regarding advertising is being violated in this case.

In summary: (1) I would suggest that we look at the GNLD article as being akin to NSAs label claims about Juice Plus. We consider such data to be worth reporting, even though NSA never published their methodologies, and the results never appeared in a peer-reviewed journal. (2) There are no published sources that mention assay results for lycopene, lutein and alpha-carotene content of Juice Plus. Therefore, the GNLD reference does not dispute exisiting data, it merely adds to it. If NSA had published such data, we would most certainly include it, but until then, GNLDs report stands as the only source to have ever commented on the assayed amounts of these 3 nutrients in Juice Plus. (3) The GNLD assay is mentioned in the Criticism section, not the Research section and, as with other sources menitoned in that section, it need nit have originated from a peer-reviewed journal.

TraceyR, while you may have objections to certain citations and content, please consider whether your objections are supported by WP policy and clearly frame your objections in the context of those policies. It seems that you are applying some very subjective criteria that are in many cases not consistent with WP policy. The yardstick here is not whether content meets with your approval but whether it satisfies WP policy. Rhode Island Red 03:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I can live with TraceyR's latest edits on the GNLD content.[5] The old version read: “A chemical analysis of Juice Plus reported by GNLD International, a competing supplement company, showed that Juice Plus Orchard/Garden Blend did not contain detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lycopene, or lutein.” and the new version reads: “An unpublished chemical analysis of Juice Plus reported by GNLD International, a competing supplement company, is claimed to have shown that Juice Plus Orchard/Garden Blend did not contain detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lycopene, or lutein. Although it could be argued that this was in fact "published", since publication on the internet is a form of publication, I am willing to concede in the interests of reaching a resolution. I assume that we can now put this issue to rest. Rhode Island Red 14:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hypothetically, say I wrote a blog that read, "Juice Plus has been shown to cause incontinence." Would this be a "published" statement? Would it be worthy of being added to this article? I think competitors findings would probably be a level below my little blog entry too.Citizen Don 04:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

SNAEMS website withdrawn in 2002

The SNAEMS website referenced in the article was withdrawn in 2002; it had not been updated since 1999 and has since been replaced (see withdrawal announcement page quoted below).

Data from the Special Nutritional Adverse Event Monitoring System website for dietary supplements has not been added to or updated since 1999, and the website has now been removed. The information previously available on dietary supplement adverse event reports on this website was very limited and was provided in a manner that made it difficult for users to appropriately interpret the adverse events.

The Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN) is currently evaluating how best to provide adverse event data in a manner that is useful, meaningful, and appropriate. By doing so, CFSAN hopes to be able to provide the best information about all adverse event reports on a user-friendly website.

More information regarding the enhancement of this website will be posted here as it becomes available and as funding permits.

Thank you.

---

See Letter to Stakeholders: Announcing CAERS, the CFSAN Adverse Event Reporting System August 29, 2002

The material from this site and the reference to SNAEMS therefore need to be removed from the article. Since the relevant content is doubly referenced, someone with access to both sources (SNAEMS and the NSA Virtual Franchise Owner's Manual (2002)) will need to sort this out. It would be good to check if there is a newer edition of this manual available and, if so, what it says about adverse effects. Perhaps JuliaHavey can help with this, since she probably has access to the manual. (As an aside, can sources not available to the general public be cited?) TraceyR 13:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Concerns

Hiya, I've been busy with other projects (like getting the Knights Templar article to Featured status), but decided I'd pop back in here to Juice Plus to see how things are going. I'm glad to see that there's still an effort to keep the article as referenced as possible. However, I'm sorry to see that edit wars are still continuing, that ad hominem attacks are continuing (from both sides) and that some editors (from both sides) seem to be fixated on this article, to the exclusion of any other work on Wikipedia. Really, with the amount of energy that you folks have put into this one page, you could have created a couple dozen other encyclopedia articles by now! I also have to admit concerns that we're again seeing overly-detailed information creeping its way back into the article text. For example, the list of ingredients that is showing up in the Product Description section. Wasn't that the reason that we set up an infobox, was to get rid of the lists in the text? My recommendation is that this information be removed or merged into the infobox, and that we concentrate on making the article as readable as possible for general readers. --Elonka 17:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka -- I fully agree about the time spent on this and the need (or lack thereof) for a peer review. In my time following this article (more than a year) I am starting to see a trend developing where a JP user or distributor or simply a fan finds the page and starts lodging lots of complaints since the article does not match to either JP marketing materials or match their personal experiences with the product. In any case Rhode Island Red spends an inordinate amount of time defending the page, which ultimately leads to a peer review or senior reviewer who changes the content, but ultimately doesn't satisfy folks who want the article to present JP in a favorable light. I can't imagine how frustrating this must be for RIR. If she stops responding, all of this work will be lost and the page will mirror JP marketing materials. If she keeps responding, her research and other potential Wikipedia entries suffer. The thing that is the most concerning about this whole process is that the long arguments on both sides are moot. The real issue is the general tenor of the article -- and as long as Wikipedia gives a voice to those who will reference their work, the article will always be controversial to JP users/distributors/fans, because there happen to be a large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing. For example, as a Christian I can't stand some of the articles regarding subjects important to my faith, but I realize I can't make wikipedia an advertisement for my faith and that there are many people out there who don't agree with me. I can't spend the time fighting edits in those articles for they ultimately won't change. I don't know the resolution, but there clearly aren't enough folks like RIR out there with subject matter knowledge and a passion (probably stirred by edit wars here more than anything else) to present the truth as they see it. I guess the only solution is for some of the rest of the neutral users to stand up and let RIR take a break -- but frankly and sadly most of us don't care if a product is misleading as long as it is not effecting us. I know I don't care enough to edit frequently on this page. For all of our sake could both sides please take a break and work on other matters -- this article has been peer reviewed, argued over way too much. Tbbooher 01:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Tbbooher, I totally respect your wish for everyone to step back for a minute. I feel the same way. Luckily, I'm too busy to get caught up in the daily edit battles. I would like for you to consider what it's like for someone who doesn't agree with RIR though. I don't think RIR is the lone defender of the neutrality of the article as you seem to characterize her. Do you see the kind of references she brings to the table? We get competitor websites and biased article getting more attention than published studies. There aren't a "large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing" but there are a few and RIR has made sure almost everyone of them is well represented. Please don't assume the views opposite to RIR as being imcompatable with a good article. Personally, I would really just like to see a neutral article.

Elonka, I couldn't agree with you more about the preponderance of overdetailed information. I would like to see an infobox too.Citizen Don 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough Citizen Don, I just feel the same way Elonka does regarding the time spent on the article and have seen some POV opinions fought by RIR since I have been watching this page (most were in the past with some JP spokespersons showing up). I must admit, however, that I have not been able to read the recent long edit discussions and haven't read any of the references so I don't know if they are biased or not. Moreover, my research (in math) is not anything close to nutrition. Tbbooher 11:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. However, can I please ask that we all work harder to get away from talking about the editors, and stick to discussing the actual article itself? --Elonka 06:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Archived

This page was getting absurdly long (over 200K) so I've gone ahead and archived it. Also, I saw that some people in this discussion seem to be particularly, erm, articulate, to the point of creating multiple posts that were multiple paragraphs long. May I gently suggest that this may not be the most effective way of communicating? In my experience, the longer that a post is, the less likely that (most) other people are going to actually read it. I'd like to encourage everyone in this discussion to work harder on keeping comments brief and focused. If you have multiple points to cover, then it may be more effective to bring them up in separate sections, rather than trying to cover everything all in one post. Thanks, Elonka 17:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)