Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn

Occupation of Baltic states

The Occupation of Baltic states article should be linked and maybe a part of discussion moved there. Xx236 08:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop this bullshit. The only reason that the baltics hate USSR, is because they are self-eated with hate. They baltic people feel little, useless. Everything that the baltic countries now have is thanks to the Soviet Unian. Technology, ruads, everything, and that makes them hate soviets even more. In their everyday life they see that all that they have, was made by the Soviets, and that makes them feel small, and that makes them hate the Soviets. M.V.E.i. 17:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop this [CENSORED]. We had "ruads", technology... strong economy and high living standards before Soviets occupied Baltic States. We "hate" Soviet Union, because they killed tens of thousands - closer to two hundred thousand, if you include all three countries - civilians in Baltics, set our life back for decades (we gained independence on 1991, we might reach our living standards relatively comparable to pre-WWII (similar to Denmark, better then Finland) in another twenty years, perhaps. And most of all, you took from us our independent countries and freedom for fifty years. Now, why exactly were we supposed to love the monster called Soviet Union? DLX 17:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No you didn't. I read many history books, by many writers, from different countries. One thing is shure: The Baltic tribes were always considered the most primitive among Europe. You forgot how your Baltic union The Lithuanian Kingdom in the middle ages started a war against Russians? You started it, so relax. The Russians were to soft ith you, you deserved more. Besides, USSR never killed Baltic people (Except at World War 2, but that were Baltic Nazis killed, there not considered people). How excacly did we take your freedom?? We gave you technology, everything. Even your cinema, thought it sucked, always got money from the USSR in hope you will do somthing with it. Don't love it, just stop expressing your "little-guy-sindrome". It's disscusting. M.V.E.i. 19:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Trolleybus stop

currently in article: In 1994 the memorial underwent a "reconstruction". Following the reopening, the visitors found the bronze headstones over the tombs removed as well as the protective barrier surrounding the burial site dismantled and a trolleybus stop was installed right atop the mass grave.
source given: "Свечи совести" для эстонских властей, Vesti, December 20, 2006.
other statement which says that trolley-bus station has been there since 1964:
Ansip: tööde varajane algus Tõnismäel ennetas konflikte, Postimees, April 26, 2007.
Im not myselfly sure exactly what changes were made in 1994 but this thing needs to be sorted out or we will get into never ending edit-war.--Staberinde 21:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this the bus stop that started World War III? -- Petri Krohn 02:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The source I added speaks about the dismantling of the protective barrier over the site and further says that "now half of the grave is under the lawn and half under the trolleybus stop" while before it was protected and none were atop of it. Perhaps the trolleybus line was there before and they "reconstructed" the stop after the "reconstruction" of the memorial. I am just trying to reconcile the conflicting statements. If someone who does not read Russian wants some quotes from the source translate, please say so here. Thanks, --Irpen 21:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The "protective barrier"... What did it look like? - Was it some kind of cast iron fence? Camptown 21:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

From the source you linked above:

"Монумент красноармейцам и холм Тынисмяги буквально захоронены под стоянкой троллейбуса, то есть люди топчут их. По-христиански было бы захоронить их там, где они должны быть", - убежден депутат парламента Эстонии Райво Ярви. Рассуждая о христианской морали, официальный Таллин слегка не договаривает: ведь раньше площадка у памятника была огорожена, здесь горел Вечный огонь, а на барельефе были высечены имена всех похороненных здесь солдат. Но в начале 90-х власти независимой Эстонии сами закатали все в асфальт. "Могилу убрали городские власти, это без всякого сомнения. В 1994 году сквер был закрыт на реконструкцию. Сначала украли бронзовые надгробия с могилы, на которых были выбиты имена людей, которые были там похоронены, а потом, когда доски украли, эти надгробия, постаменты, они оказались как бы ни к чему. Убрали и постаменты. И теперь могила, ее половина, находится под газоном, а вторая часть этой могилы находится под троллейбусной остановкой", - рассказывает писатель, исследователь Михаил Петров.

Translation:

"The monument to the Red Army soldiers and the Tonismagi hillock are literally buried under the Trolleybus stop, so the people walk on them. In accordance to the Christian traditions, they should be buried where they should be", sais the deputy of the parliament "Райво Ярви" (not sure how to translit his name back into Estionian, sorry --Irpen) Raivo Järvi. The official Tallinn is somewhat tongue-in-cheek when it speaks about the Christian ethics. Earlier the area around the memorial was fenced off, there was an eternal flame and the names of all of the buried soldiers were embossed in the headstones. But in early-90s the authorities of independent Estonia asphalted this all by themselves. "The grave was removed by the city authorities, there is no doubt about it. In 1994 the park was closed for the reconstruction. First, they removed the bronze headstones where the names were embossed. Then when the plaques were stolen, these headstones, masts have seemed to become unnecessary. So, they removed them as well. And now, the grave, half of it, is under the lawn and the other half is under the trolleybus stop.", - tells the writer, researcher Mikhail Petrov.

--Irpen 23:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's Raivo Järvi. -- 82.131.52.22 23:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The road between the church and the park was widened in early 60s, trolleybus stop is located on the sidewalk of that road. In 1994 the eternal flame was removed and paved over... no clue about the gravestones. As last week's dig confirmed, the burials were in the other side of park from the monument, partially covered with the sidewalk/trolleybus stop. I'm digging through accessible photographs of the site (can't find any maps) to find out what Misha Petrov is talking about. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 00:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, no bronze gravestones to see on photo nr.5 (from 1953) in this document [1]. In fact, it looks like the photographer was standing on top of the graves to take it, and the location of the rectangular flower patch was determined by the park's overall design, not actual burials. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Quick remark: In Estonian it is "Tõnismäe monument" ("monument" is not capitalized in correct Estonian in this context). Estonian reader.

I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the trolleybus stop was also widened around mid-eighties - but the burial place was trod over during whole Soviet time, as it was an entrance to the square. Perhaps we can come up with a photo about the stop in sixties, so it can be compared. In any case, one of the main reasons for reburial of the dead and relocation of the statue was exactly that - that the dead might have been under trolleybus stop. DLX 05:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was one of the excuses, but it certainly was not a reason. -- Petri Krohn 05:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri, please read WP:AGF. DLX 06:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith applies to other Wikipedia editors, not to government statements. -- Petri Krohn 06:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Further correction, AGF applies only to the edits of the Wikipedia editors. Also, AGF does not say "be a fool". --Irpen 06:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in bus stops. If you support me - sign below.Xx236 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank Irpen for providing accurate translation of this article, because this article is a good example of media manipulation. It says: "And now, the grave, half of it, is under the lawn and the other half is under the trolleybus stop." It's natural and logical to understand this sentence this way that after 1994 reconstructions the trolleybus stop was put on the graves. But the article doesn't say this. It describes that now the graves are under trolleybus stop and doesn't say since which time. The reason is, that the trolleybus stop at Tõnismägi was there al the time since opening trolleybus traffic in Tallinn in 1964 or 1965. During reconstructions of 1994 the asphalt pavement on the trolleybus stop was replaced by stone pavement, but the stop itself remained at the same place as during the Soviet times.80.235.55.122 16:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn again

I remember there were lots of accusations raised at one point (see: Talk:Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn/Archive_3#Petri_Krohn.27s_weird_manipulations); it looks that the user concerned continues with such 'controversial' practices (to say the least):

• Edit summary, which is inciting hatred: Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
• Adding an image to the talk page with the comment “Is this the bus stop that started World War III?” (you hope the war has begun?)
• doing some canvassing with unabashed offensive comments: “defend both the Russian and the neutral point-of-view in this article, againt a horde of agressive and hostile POV pushers from Estonia?” [2]

Ands so forth. It's time you stopped, because the article (/talk) here is NOT your personal playground, nor is it a place for stimulating hostility. E.J. 07:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, (the comment now on archive page two) what I remember so well (probably because I commented on it then) is his comment that 9th of May celebrations would probably (or in his mind "should"?, taking into account other statements by him) end with Toompea burnt down. -- 82.131.52.22 07:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

HANDS OFF PETRI KRON! ))) Beatles Fab Four 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I think some remarks that slipped from PK have indeed been unfortunate but his edits to the article are certainly useful. Let's concentrate on the content and hope that Petri will learn from mistakes. --Irpen 07:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

We can hope that - although, last time we had that discussion here, he didn't. Perhaps it is time for Petri to take a short wiki-break. Emotions may start running too high and accusations are flying already. But I must admit that his edit summaries are rather... not nice and his edits seem to push an agenda from time to time. Hopefully this will change without need to involve Wikipedia authorities. DLX 08:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That comment(Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.) unfortunately demonstrates that other users need to keep eye on neutrality of Petri Krohn's edits.--Staberinde 12:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll probably be labelled as a racist but some of the bias can probably be explained by Petri's russian ancestry. Alepik 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Come on guys, Staberinde, DLX and unonimous user from Estonia, you are no better than Petri (I mean non-neutral) Beatles Fab Four 21:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian bitches!

The page titled Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007 provides a real dilemma. On the one hand it is the best photo document availably on the protest at the monument on April 26. The photos are time-stamped, and show that the police started using tear gas at 21:31. They also do not seem to show any major provocation by the protestors. On the other hand, they are an attack page aganst the protestors and Estonia's Russian community. The title uses the word Tiblad, which could be translated as "Russian bitches" (or "Niggers"). Some of the photograps also seem to be selected to dehumanize proterstors (closeups of man with no teeth).

Leaving out the link would be bad for the article. However I believe it would be wrong to link to the page without warning the reader of its expicit racist message. Not including the title as the link text would only create an ugly easter egg

Also, as this article is about ethnic tensions in Estonia, it is appropreate to include examples of racism and hate speech as references. -- Petri Krohn 03:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no way you could translate "tibla" into "Russian bitch". At best, it is similarly derogatory term like "tscuhna", which is widely used in Russia about Estonians. "Tibla" simply does not have a translation in English, as far as I know. DLX 06:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

'Tibla' is a word like 'fritz' for Germans (especially for German soldiers) by neighbours of Germany, or 'paddy' for Irish people by ethnic English. It is a slang word; it is not inherently a slur, and while it does imply a particular stereotype, it is usually not used ethnicity-based, but culture-based. (Of course, being a slang word, it's also used in other ways, and sometimes by xenophobes. Also obviously, its users may fail to differentiate the culture from its people.) Such "neighbourly slurs", alas, can not be well translated.

As for the 'You whore!' exclamation; at best, it may be an etymology for the word, but it is definitely not a translation. One popular folk etymology says that 'ty bljad' (which *is* roughly Russian for 'you whore') used to be a common expletive among Russian soldiers, thus prompting Estonian villagers who had contact with them to start call them by that phrase. Obviously, such a "bird-call loan", even if it happened, removed the original meaning. To consider 'you whore' the translation of 'tibla' is just as absurd as to think that 'septic tank' is the translation of the Cockney word 'seppo', which is typically used to refer to Americans. Digwuren 17:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to track down the aforementioned tchuhnya (чухня). I heard and occasionally used this word meaning "crap". It may be related to чухонец, which is according to Dal's dictionary is St. Petersburg's slang for local Finns. I vaguely remember this word being used by Pushkin. Yury Petrachenko 08:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

По мшистым, топким берегам
Чернели избы здесь и там,
Приют убогого чухонца;
И лес, неведомый лучам
В тумане спрятанного солнца,
Кругом шумел.... А.С. Пушкин

Petri Krohn has not demonstrated that this page is the best photo document available, nor is the article about alleged ethnic tensions, it is about the Bronze Soldier. Adding this link is highly inappropriate, there are many Russian rascist neo-Nazi links that can added too. Martintg 06:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the Bronze soldier controversy and the related Estonian ethnic tensions. It was decided before to keep all of these in one place, here. This will later be divided into two or more separate articles about the controversy and the monument. So for now, this is an appropriate place to write about the tensions, before they die out.Yury Petrachenko 07:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a native speaker of Russian and I have never heard the "widely used" word Tsuhna. As for Tiblad, the more exact translation is not "Russian bitch" but "you bitch". If this is used in Estonia as a name for Russians in general, I am very disappointed to find this out. --Irpen 06:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mrmm, just a question, "tyi suka" (so weird to write Russian with Latin alphabet) would be "you bitch". "Tyi bladt" would translate exactly how? Also, I suspect that by far most Estonians are not aware of the origins of this pre-WWII (afaik) word and use it without realizing the original meaning. Compare it to term also used in Russia about Estonians, "kuraty" (from kurat, the Devil in Estonian, also a common swearing word). And you must admit that perhaps those rioters (more then 2/3 with criminal record) were not perhaps the best representatives of Russians (before you accuse me of racism, I have several Russian friends, one of my relatives is married to a Russian. I car-pool with a half-Russian when coming to work).

As for the "tchuhna", it is pretty widely used about Estonians and Finns. Finnish wikipedia even has a stub about it ([3]), I am sure Petri can translate it for us. DLX 06:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this whole "Tibla" thing is a strawman. Should we search for one or two private Russian websites that contain insulting or racist comments, then post it as "evidence" that Russians are rascist in general, as Petri Krohn has done in regard to this private Estonian website? That kind of cheap shot shouldn't be too difficult I suspect. Martintg 07:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There's another important aspect to the word 'tibla'.

In its modern incarnation, the word was mainly popularised by the comic character and freedom fighter caricature Ivan Orav. Besides that, it is pretty much only used by WWII veterans of non-Russian sides in Estonia -- not even their descendants. Hence, the word has also a good grain of comic relief irrevocably attached to it, and its usage is almost invariably more for dramatic effect than for any actual classification of people, or out of intent to insult. Digwuren 18:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Again DLX and other estonian users try to move discussion out of context. I personally never never heard or read words tsuhna or kurat. But this is not the main question. Look at relevant russian articles/blogs and look how they call estonians. The strongest expression is "fascists" used by some. Here we have the whole page called "tiblad". A could cite another couple of links. So the issue raised by Petri is justified. Beatles Fab Four 07:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Finnish article in WP is not a source of anything. Several native Russian speakers here say that they have not heard those as you say widely use derogatory names for Estonians and Finns. I know a couple of anecdotes, yes, but those have no such terminology and the anecdotes that I know are rather inoffensive. Much less than the American Polish Jokes which are rather harsher and dumb. --Irpen 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be just me, but I see a term "fascists" by far more insulting and derogatory then name derived from common swear phrase, but that really isn't the issue here. Petri's note was very much out of line - as was inclusion of this web link. Sure, there have to be Estonians, who hate Russians (I don't know any), but they are extremists. So, do we start including links from Russian neo-nazis/neo-stalinists/putinists as well or shall we keep this an encyclopedia?

As for the "tchuhna", please use a Russian search engine - using Russian spelling, of course, as well. DLX 08:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here you go [4].Yury Petrachenko 08:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

'Tibla' doesn't mean 'russian', but 'soviet' (indication of mentality, not nationality). Like the 'kuraty' name for estonians was derived from widely-used estonian expression literally meaning 'devil' and used as mild expletitive, the word 'tibla' was derived from liberators' vocabulary. Older 'chukhna' derives from even older 'chud', used in pre-czar Russia to denote all finno-ugric nations. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

About the russian insult word for estonians - it is in time generated from Chud, historically what was used by slavic tribes for western-nordic-finnougrian tribes, now used as an insult.

"tibla" is not used anywhere in estonian press, and it's usage among people is not widespread at all. Origin of it is from another russian popular insult "tõ bljadt". "tibla" is not in itself a synonyme for russian, but used to distinguish so called 'scum' - criminals, bums, drunks etc.

On another important note - about the teargas - the clouds that are seen on those forementioned pictures from about 21:30 and in many-many videos clearly, was NOT teargas, as wrongly published in multiple Russian press articles ! What was used there was pulverised fire extinguisher, not hazardous to humans. http://tamrex.struktuur.ee/441

Only effect is somewhat dirty look, like its visible in some later pictures of demonstrants. Nor the Estonian riot-police squad or ordinary police have large scale teargas devices, only carry miniature gascanisters on belt. Only massive anti-riot device that was used was two trucks with water cannons, the one used first night broke and second night another was used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

No real point, you'll have dozens of russian sources linked to you claiming the powder on rioters' clothes is typical of teargas use. 213.35.234.15 14:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit summary

Generally one should not read too much into edit summaries. They do not have the same authority as edits in talk pages or articles. Also, they are limited to 200 characters, so the true meaning may not fit into the space.

Regarding this edit summary: One should note it was part of a edit war with a pro-Russian editor. The whole exchange is repeated below:

1. renamed section to - →Protest and riots - + photos: Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007
2. what a link with RACIST nickname for non-estonians is doing here?!
3. restored link. 1) Excellent set of photograps documents peaceful nature of protest. 2) Caveat clearly states out derogatory nature of page title
4. I strongly disagree. It harasses non-estonian readers
5. Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
6. Only few estonians are racists. We shouldn't follow this behavior. Be polite, please!
   1. ok?
7. moved note to refs

Now that I have more than 200 characters available, I will rephrase the comment:

• You User:Beatles Fab Four, as an pro-Russian editor, should forget the insult and support this formulation, as it gives support to the Russian view that many Estonians are racists, even giving credibility the the depiction of Estonians as born again Nazis.

-- Petri Krohn 04:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, your formulation slanders the majority of good Estonians who don't hold the views of a small extremist minority. Should we characterise all Russians by the few Russian neo-Nazi skinheads we occasionally see in the media? Martintg 06:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I was clearly stupid to expect Petri Krohn to realize his mistake and appologise. But I guess that as all Estonians must be racists then I do not deserve appologise in his view. And now Petri Krohn has openly admitted [5] that he is pushing anti-Estonian POV and is calling other Russians to follow his lead.--Staberinde 07:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the find. It answers a few things that have been puzzling me. Digwuren 18:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we all realize that Petri's remark was an unfortunate one. However, two days have passed and it is time to move on. If you need an apology, I can give you one on behalf of the Russian-speaking community. Trying to extract an apology from someone against their will is rather silly, IMO. If you really can't move on past this, start an RfC. I would rather discuss the article and put this incident behind. --Irpen 07:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not demand an appology, just I thought it would be good way to calm down situation and show some respect. And I personally will not start RfC(although someone else may). Also I do not think that we need to continue discussing it here at the moment, but I seriously doubt that these remarks will be forgotten. Btw, I do not blame Russian-speaking community, stupididy has never recognized ethnic borders.--Staberinde 07:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Image

Yes, I did add an image of the grave site to this talk page, to the sections discussing the exact location of the graves and the bus stop. A also took the picture and uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons.

As to the comment/image caption. It has been speculated that this conflict may cause an new Cold War between Russia and the West. One must ask whether the Estonian government was aware of the consequences of its actions. It seems to me that they were aware, and acted partly as a provocation. In the parliamentary elections this was one on their themes, mayby even the deciding factor in the outcome. If this controversy ever leads to war, hot or cold, I hold the Estonian government responsible. -- Petri Krohn 05:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Political reactions

This section has became very long and probably needs to be copyedited:

1. In some cases (eg Serbia) we have a full statement included. I think that statements and reactions should be summarized and provide just the main point(s). Full statements should be avaible through reference links.

   Serbia does not not have the full statement. (I wish it had, as that statement best expresses the sentiment of the opposition to the "relocation". -- Petri Krohn 04:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC))

2. One co-editor tryd to regroup the statements of the former USSR. All that kind of groupings are POV. Most neutral will be re-arrenge the statements in alphabetical order or in accordance with the timeline (date and time of issuing).
3. One co-editor asked that only statements from the official websites of state institutions should be inserted. At the same time presidents, prime ministers, foreign ministers and speekers of the Parliaments are represent the official view of their countries without any additional credentials if it's not clearly statedthat eg they present their personal view. So, in case we don't have an official statement, but e.g. an interview to the newspaper, it could be equal to the official point of view. Of course, this doesn't apply to personal blogies.80.235.55.122 17:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good time to spin off the political reactions into a separate article. It's a well-defined part of the main topic and not affected with the need to wait for the dust to settle, as with some other subtopics. Digwuren 18:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Photos and coordinates

This article consists 4 pictures of the Bronze Soldier at Tõnismägi, and no pictures at the Cemetery of the Estonian Defence Forces. Do we have any photo of the monument at the new location? Also, probably the coordinates of the new location should be added? 80.235.55.122 17:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not know if outside world can access these, but some pictures are available at delfi.ee:

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/article.php?id=15848451
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file15851844_Pronkssodur.jpg
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file15851814_Andrus_Ansipi_lilled_pronkssodurile.jpg
Other issue is if these pictures can be used in Wikipedia. 194.204.35.117 19:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Dolomite/limestone

Just a quick (translation) question - is "mastaba" made of limestone or dolomite? DLX 19:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a limestone.194.204.35.117 19:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is made of paekivi. The Estonian article however does not specify whether paekivi is limestone oder dolomite. As far as I understand, the base rock in Tallinn contains magnesium, making the local stone dolomite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Petri Krohn (talk • contribs) 02:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Yes, I was aware of paekivi - just wasn't sure what is the correct translation, limestone oder dolomite. However, I am not sure it is made from local (ie base rock in Tallinn) stone. Highest quality dolomite comes from Saaremaa or Southern Estonia, but the stone wall doesn't look that high quality - but of course, limestone and dolomite darken in weather, especially if lots of nearby traffic. Very minor matter, but perhaps we should go with just "stone" until some kind of source can be found? DLX 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is one source for dolomite: the original name of the proposal by Arnold Alas was "Dolomite". -- Petri Krohn 05:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm probably at fault for causing the confusion, so I feel a need to clarify:

The mastaba is laid of bricks cut from dolomite. However, the the mortar holding the bricks together is limestone-based. Characteristics of limestone mortar are marginally relevant to the article, for they affect the time of works of reinstalling the mastaba; however, for all other purposes, it would be more proper to say that the mastaba is made of dolomite.

Unfortunately, the Estonian word for dolomite is 'paas', which just happens to be very morphology-sensitive, so it's hard to properly google for it. Digwuren 18:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

DLX

I think respected persons here should stop this provocator. Petri is a child compared to him. Beatles Fab Four 09:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, provide some specific instances of his provocations. 194.204.35.117 09:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

ok immediately a couple. 1) "re-taking" is a neutral tern. Why he constntly deletes it shuting occupation, occupation 2) "Jews were killed by Germans" Who helped them. Who physically killed them. Pushkin? Beatles Fab Four 09:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with "re-taking" is that it implies that Tallinn was Russia's city before (or inherently). This is a non-factual POV, and can not be accepted in Wikipedia unless clearly labelled as such. Digwuren 17:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was a Soviet city before the German invasion. What's the problem then. It's okBeatles Fab Four 17:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

And what about the first Soviet invasion?

This is the very problem with "re-". There were *two* Soviet invasions, but this aspect can not be clear from the context. "Before" is thus ambiguous, allowing spinsters to inject whatever meaning is convenient at the time into the concept. Puns and ambiguities, however delicious they may be, have no place in an encyclopedic article not dealing with puns and ambiguities. And I mean, respectively. Digwuren 17:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You could also mention that Estonia was a part of the Russian Empire and so forth. Talking seriously, I thought the aspect was clear. Moans arose from the other side. Abstrcting from other layers of Estonian feelings, you should admit that "technically" it was re-taken. Beatles Fab Four 17:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I shouldn't. Such a word would require too much additional explanation in the article; explanation that clearly has no relevance here. Instead, I do what every reasonable encyclopedian would: I choose a word whose semantic field is a better match for the appropriate meaning. Digwuren 18:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a native english speaker and definitely "entering" is the correct term. The Nazis left Paris before the Allies arrived, just as in Tallinn, therefore we speak of "entering". "Taking" is more appropriate for Berlin or Budapest, where the Allies had to fight their way in. Martintg 10:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are a native English speaker with Baltic roots. That changes everything ) Beatles Fab Four 11:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

What does it change? Nothing at all.194.204.35.117 11:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It does, it shows who you are and it's understood what you will write. M.V.E.i. 17:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Beatles Fab Four wrote: '"Jews were killed by Germans" Who helped them. Who physically killed them. Pushkin?' People kill people, not nations. There are always collaborators with any invading force - that is the nature of man. This will apply to any conflict, present or past. I wonder hhy has this topic any relevance here? 194.204.35.117 11:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheap demogogy. People kill people, not nations, maybe. But somehow to much people who belonged to the Estonian nation, killed other people because of them belonging to another nation.M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it has. There are no monuments to SS in Belarus, Ukraine, elsewhere. Many Estonians were active collaborators. Learn YOUR history. Beatles Fab Four 11:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Many" is too vague to mean anything. The same can be said about any nation/country invaded by German forces - many French were active collaborators, many Danes were active collaborators, many ..., many Russians were active collaborators, .... What does it prove - nothing. 194.204.35.117 11:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Many were of every nation? Ok, lets say so. But somehow to many of many were estonians, and no one gave such resistance to the Nazis as Russians.M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Please show me some of those fabled 'monuments to SS' in Estonia. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Beatles Fab Four, please provide some examples, not cry "Wolf!!!", when there is none. Please read about history - for example, Occupation of Baltic States and History of the Jews in Estonia would be a good place to start. Soviet/Red Army came to Tallinn, when there was legal Estonian government already in place, liberation would mean that instead of occupying Estonia, they would actually given us our freedom (preferably before 50 years passed). Also, Estonians were not major players during German occupation - when talking about death camps, even most guards were not Estonians - as Germans didn't trust Estonians to be guards. DLX 11:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop telling lies. Once the Soviets left Estonia in 1941, the Estonians and the rest of Balts started killing Jews even before the Germans came, and the Germans trusted Estonians, after all, they are "brothers". And no one occupied you, you just feel small so you hate everybody. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought that everyone realized what should not be written edit summaries but looks like some did not learn. Beatles Fab Four edit summary We freed Europe from Nazism, while you cleared Estonia from Jews. Seriously people, if you want to use retarded edit summaries, fine do as you wish, but do not expect to be taken seriously by other editors after that.--Staberinde 11:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

But what he wrote, was a fact. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I get bored of your annoying comments. I see some want to write a new history of Europe. Beatles Fab Four 12:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

History of Europe has been like that for 60+ years for the whole world, excluding Russia/Soviet Union. DLX 12:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Aha, I presume you are a denier of the Holocost. Beatles Fab Four 12:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You presume wrong. However, I presume that you deny Soviet crimes - in my opinion, that is at least equal to Holocaust denial, if not worse, as the crimes were worse. But - enough of this offtopic discussion, let us stay on topic of improving the article - would be a totally new area for you, though. DLX 12:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You didnt just denie Holocaust, you were of those who created it. Soviet crimes are nothing next to your Nazi crimes. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, u right! estonian SS fighters are innocent. Indeed! Beatles Fab Four 13:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but... are you actually reading, what I said, or do you have small cards tagged "rant" from where you pick up cards randomly as comments? Because you make as much sense if you'd do that. DLX 13:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has article about "estonian SS fighters" and their legal status: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Estonian%29

194.204.35.117 13:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

don't shw me english page you cleared it

Большая часть тех 4500 евреев, которые жили в Эстонии в начале наступления на Востоке, бежала вместе с отступающими войсками Красной Армии. Осталось около 2000 человек. В одном Таллине жило около 1000 евреев. Арест всех евреев мужского пола в возрасте старше 16 лет был почти закончен. Все они были казнены «частями самообороны» под руководством «айнзатцкоммандо 1А».[3] 26-29 сентября 1941 г. эстонские «силы самообороны» уничтожили 440 арестованных ими евреев (по другим данным — 474). [4] Имущество казненных частично передавалось немцами в распоряжение «сил самообороны». Помимо евреев эстонская полиция и «силы самообороны» ликвидировали сторонников советской власти (к которым зачастую причислялись все русские жители некоторых городов и сел). После занятия Вермахтом Тарту летом-осенью 1941 года, в противотанковом рву под городом (в населённом пункте Лемматси) отрядами «Омакайтсе» было убито более 12 тысяч мирных жителей и советских военнопленных.([5])

WANT MORE LITTLE WRITERS OF THE HISTORY? I CAN PROCEED

Beatles Fab Four 13:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

STOP SHOUTING AT PEOPLE **NOW** First of all, you should be polite. Don't copy/paste long paragraphs of Russian text here, give a short summary in English, or give a link. And explain why this is relevant to the issue at hand. Everybody knows about Nazi crimes in Estonia, you don't need to reiterate that. It is also known that a few local people collaborated. It's no news, but it is unclear why are you copy/pasting this here.

On the other hand, it is also known that a number of people actively collaborated with the inhuman Soviet regime. The atrocities committed by the Stalinist regime are, however, not a widely discussed topic in Russia, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who think Stalin was actually better than Hitler or things like that.

See also: [6]

Lebatsnok 15:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

A few colloborated??? A few??? Try 99.9%. You were friends of Hittler, ofcourse you will try to "soften" the fact that he was the biggest creep in history but puting him next to Stalin.M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

better think what other nations should feel when your prime-minister claims that the monument is "a grave of drunken soldiers", when your ambassador in Moscow immediately tells about a guy killed in protests "he was a vandal and looter", etc/ Beatles Fab Four 13:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ansip didn't say anything like that. He referred to some stupid urban legends concerning the people who are buried there --- which was, no doubt, an expression of bad taste. As for the ambassador's words --- the killed guy had stolen stuff in his pockets. Lebatsnok 15:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

...why does every soviet POV-pusher eventually fall back to hysteria? Lack of sensible arguments? Also, translation, please (I can read it just fine, but others here didn't necessarily have 12-years of compulsory Russian in school) Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

well I presune I now have the right to claim that Edgar Vares-Barbarus is Nazi-POV-pusher, but I won't. These are jusyt facts about your SS legion, PM, Marina, etc Beatles Fab Four 14:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Because they cannot handle that their petty views might be wrong. I've noticed that as well - in and out of Wikipedia. In truth, I don't think there is any reason to argue with them... they just stick fingers to ears and chant "You are fascist, you are fascist". It is impossible to get one actually to reason with you, unless s/he belongs to "intelligentsia", in which case Russians are very interesting to talk to. DLX 14:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Russians gave so much great contribution to world science, literature, and culture in generally. Who are you, the little Estonians who didn't bring contribution to the world or anything else, to talk about Russians?? All you can do is say: "were small, we didn't contribute anything to the world, we are full with selfhate. Well, at least we are in Europe, lets suck up to them, maybe someone will notice we excist". M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Most of the POVs that can be recognised as bearing allegiance to Soviet, or Russian view of the events, have grave inconsistencies -- be they internal or incompatibilities with the facts. Thus, one trying to follow those POVs to their logical conclusions is bound to end up in cognitive dissonance.

Of course, this is not specific to this particular POV; it happens to all non-reality-based POVs. The allegiance problem is that reality-based POVs are typically not recognisable as being of any particular participant. Digwuren 17:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"The peaceful and active life of the small Jewish community in Estonia came to an abrupt halt in 1940 with the Soviet occupation of Estonia. Cultural autonomy in addition to all of its institutions was liquidated in July 1940. In July and August of the same year all organizations, associations, societies and corporations were closed. A large group of Jews (about 400) were deported on 14 June 1941. After the German occupation later in 1941, all Jews who had failed to flee were murdered. According to data from Israel, 1,000 Estonian Jews were executed in 1941. After the war, a number of Jews who had previously fled to the Soviet Union returned to Soviet-occupied Estonia. There was, however, no rebirth of Jewish cultural life. Communist Party policies were hostile to Jews and were implemented as part of an anti-Zionism campaign. Hence, in addition to physical destruction, the Jews in Estonia met moral and cultural catastrophe." [7] Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you please remind me how many Jews were killed by Russians? ) Beatles Fab Four 14:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Replies to your questions - Estonian Jews killed by "Russians": during the first Soviet occupation of 1940-41 about 500 Jews were deported to Siberia. Very few of them returned. After the WWII - see History of the Jews in Estonia#Post-Holocaust.

As for your second question, that is easy: 0. They did not participate in Holocaust:

The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen SS a criminal organisation, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:

Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.

In April 13, 1950, a message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by John McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:

The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.

Who cares about internal affairs of the US? Beatles Fab Four 15:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that any further comments are necessary. DLX 14:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Google it. Of those deported to Siberia in 1940, not many returned. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you please remind me how many Jews were killed by Russians? ) Beatles Fab Four 14:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Judging from their bodycounts vs Red Army - and the fact that there were jews in Red Army - I'd say quite a few. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen his answers tell everything about him. Thank you. Beatles Fab Four 14:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You could've just as easily asked 'how many aseris' or 'how many georgians'. Estonians were in Waffen-SS, the military, not the political wing. Moreover, the units recruited from occupied areas didn't go through the ideological indoctrination ethnic German units did. It was simply a case of 'who'll give me a gun to shoot at reds?' Edgar Vares-Barbarus 15:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ach, you edited your question after I had answered. [8]. Classy. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 16:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It's the history. Just because Soviet/Russian authorities don't accept it, pushing own version, doesn't mean it's not true. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 13:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Estonians participated in the Holocaust more then anybody else. They started killing Jews right after the Soviets left, BEFORE the Germans even came. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Ложь, повторяемая достаточно часто, становится правдой" - Ленин. Estonians rounded up soviet collaborators, independent of nationality. 1.5 years in paradise that was USSR proved to be enough to get the GEPs seriously angry with soviets. (Translation of russian text: 'A sufficiently repeated lie becomes a truth' - Lenin") Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

WOW! Comment from this guy Edgar Vares-Barbarus (remember his name) should be cited everwhere!

Q:How many Jews were killed by Estonian SS legioners?

A:That is easy: 0. They did not participate in Holocaust

I'll send it to Mossad ) Beatles Fab Four 17:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If you stopped editing others' comments, you'd follow who wrote what better. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 17:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Great Patriotic War" is a POV notion

Great Patriotic War is a Soviet propaganda notion. It should be replaced in the article by a neutral name.Xx236 09:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda not, POV yes. Only some ex-USSR countries use the name. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I also disagree with the notion of it being a Soviet Propaganda notion. If you consider that historically Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812 was known in Russia as the "Patriotic War" it explains the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union being known in Russia as the "Great Patriotic War". There's nothing necessarily there that has anything to do with Soviet Propaganda except that the name was coined by Pravda in the opening days of the conflict, which I personally feel in this case is no different than someone else coining the term "World War II". However I still believe that the use of the name has a relevance to the article. --86.133.142.70 14:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

GPW isn't the same as WW2, though - it started with Hitler's invasion of USSR in 1941, as opposed to far earlier dates for WW2. Whatever happened before that, USSR considered 'business as usual'. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Russia’s Involvement in the Tallinn Disturbances

The International Centre for Defence Studies (Estonian) has published an overview:
http://www.icds.ee/index.php?id=3&sub=2&L=1
194.204.35.117 09:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if my source is reliable - one of the first found by Google - Russian IntafadaXx236 09:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This (Russian Intafada) is a strange piece of hatred, at least, if nothing more serious. 194.204.35.117 10:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right, the texts there are rather specific. Xx236 10:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It is also a veritable stash of various kooky conspiracy theories, from anti-banking to the classical Illuminati & Bilderberg stuff. I'd say that nothing the site says can be used as evidence for anything else that the site has said it. Digwuren 17:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mastaba????

Why is the limestone wall behind the sculpture compared to a mastaba? For me, this comparison doesn't make any sense whatsoever (I can see no similarity here), and it makes a completely wrong impression of the dimensions of the monument to a reader who hasn't seen it. Lebatsnok 10:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, use of that word is strongly misleading, even with '-like'. The structure had nothing to do with mastaba - a burial chamber basicly. Mastaba by definition has entrance & inner space. This structure was one solid pile of rocks, with no inner space or entrances. It was ment as a wall fragment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 14:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Agreed. I've replaced all occurrences of "mastaba" with "stone structure".--Pharos 18:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Alleged use of teargas.

On another important note - about the teargas - the clouds that are seen on some pictures from first night at about 21:30 and clearly in many-many videos, was NOT teargas, as wrongly claimed in multiple Russian press articles !

What was used there was pulverised fire extinguisher, not hazardous to humans. Only effect is somewhat dirty look, like it is visible in some later pictures of demonstrants. http://tamrex.struktuur.ee/441

Nor the Estonian riot-police squad or ordinary police have large scale teargas devices, they carry miniature gascanisters on belt. The only massive anti-riot device that were used was two trucks with water cannons, the one used first night broke and second night another was deployed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

New treatise by the Institute of Defence Studies

[9]. Can somebody read through the report and integrate its findings into the article? Alas, I lack the time necessary for that kind of work. Digwuren 15:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The text http://www.icds.ee/index.php?id=3&sub=2&L=1 194.204.35.117 15:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That source was mentioned already. Alas, I doubt that Beatles Fab Four will allow adding that material to the article. DLX 16:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it was. I'm sorry for not properly checking the previous entries before writing.

As for the second part of your remark, the humour is definitely appreciated. Digwuren 17:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Some comments

Okay, this article is becoming overly long, and it might well expand well after this upcoming weekend, so:

1. Split the article, create one called Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, dealing primarily with the monument and a short reference to the controversy, then another one called Bronze Soldier of Tallinn relocation controversy, dealing with the events leading up to the unrest, the move, the riots and the aftermath.
2. Remove the whole section about international response, it does not add anything of value to the article. Or, possibly it can be rewritten into a much shorter paragraph. The only responses that might be worth saving for posterity are the official Russian ones, and the official Estonian, NATO and EU ones. The rest seems just to serve the purpose of saying "Yeah, they are on our side".
3. Remove the names from the mass grave section. It is of no interest to the reader knowing the name and rank etc, just that there were Soviet soldiers there and that they were exhumed and relocated as well
4. The first "Controversy" paragraph has too many subheaders. The text can be more concentrated. Unnecessarities should be removed.

These are my five cents. --MoRsE 16:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

And yes, this is not a discussion forum! The entries here should be about the article, not your personal views on the incident! Remember that this is an encyclopedia and that this article needs to be written from a neutral point of view.--MoRsE 16:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Splitting has been agreed on previously. Though, as per consensus, we should wait with splitting until the promised retribution today (9th May). List of names is already faulty, as it has more names than there were coffins recovered. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 16:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I do think that the names of the Soviet soldiers should be preserved. The monument was, after all, built to honor them. Possibly the names should be moved to a box, like the boxes in the Columbine High School massacre article. Also, I think we should be really hesitant about making a second article for the controversy. Sometimes less is more, and the content, if written concisely, is not sufficient in my opinion for two articles.--Pharos 18:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Somehow some Estonians do not realize ot try to forget the fact that without efforts of those Soviet (Russian, Uzbek, Georgian, Ukrainin etc., yes, Estonian, too) soldiers their independent Estonia wouldn't exist AT ALL NOW. Names must be mentioned. Beatles Fab Four 18:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are off the point now, this is not an article to honor the fallen, this is an encyclopedia. And their names etc are completely irrelevant for the description of the events this past weeks. --MoRsE 18:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The names can be added after DNA-testing has confirmed the identities? As I mentioned, the list contains more names than there were burials. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Artistic criticism must be sourced

I've removed all discussion of artistic criticism, both the idea that the Bronze Soldier is socialist realist and the idea that it is not. As far as I can tell, this is an argument among Wikipedians, not art historians. If someone can find WP:RS of art criticism that deal specifically with the Bronze Soldier I will be very glad to have the information in the article, as this is of course an interesting topic. But interestingness does not trump the WP:NOR policy.--Pharos 17:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)