:::::::::Sorry, but what war did we start and what did we lost? The arguments we have very clearly won, as you have yet to answer adequately answer ''any'' of the questions (something that requires you to actually read those sources you give - it is now blindingly obvious that you haven't read them (that was made clear by your refutal of source you gave yourself) and, in fact, have no knowledge of history other then neo-Stalinist/neo-Nazi propaganda - all your "knowledge" comes from Google). You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view.
:::::::::Sorry, but what war did we start and what did we lost? The arguments we have very clearly won, as you have yet to answer adequately answer ''any'' of the questions (something that requires you to actually read those sources you give - it is now blindingly obvious that you haven't read them (that was made clear by your refutal of source you gave yourself) and, in fact, have no knowledge of history other then neo-Stalinist/neo-Nazi propaganda - all your "knowledge" comes from Google). You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view.
:::::::::Your tactics so far have been dropping sources without reading them - and when asked a question, you ignore the question or try to lead the conversation to another topic - at best claiming that "sources" have the answers, even when they rather obviously don't. [[User:DLX|DLX]] 19:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Your tactics so far have been dropping sources without reading them - and when asked a question, you ignore the question or try to lead the conversation to another topic - at best claiming that "sources" have the answers, even when they rather obviously don't. [[User:DLX|DLX]] 19:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::::: 1) It's not polite to burge into other peoples conversations. 2) I have answered to all your questions and gave reliable links, but you everytime i proved your clain to be wrong moved from version to version. Actually, this one "You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view" is presicely about you. By the way, i'm anti-Stalinist (The communists i support are Rikov and others like him). My knowledge comes from real historicle books, i gave you names. I used facts agreed by the whole world, exept the Baltic states, whose history books are widely recognized as Fiction. All your "knowledge" comes from Baltic-propoganda which's only cause is to reduce the Baltic shame. M.V.E.i. 19:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
== Your recent actions ==
== Your recent actions ==
Revision as of 19:23, 21 May 2007
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I like your version of the English people picture. Just one thing, do you think we could have at least one woman? Someone from an ethnic minority would be a good idea as well. What do you think? Alun10:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
please review Talk:Jew to understand the coordination and collaboration that took place in choosing the image for the temple (the section "Collage image", "Ashkenazi-centric portrait collage", "Smaller collage" and later "Come one now! How are those pictures fair?" which was a reaction to your edits). This is not to say we are not open to other idea for collage but please talk about on the talk page first. While wikipedia is not an bureaucracy it is also not an anarchy but works by its own rules which you much understand in order to be a valued contributor. I hope that you continue to edit wikipedia, but please "play nice" and understand that you are not the only person trying to make wikipedia the best encyclopedia it can be. Jon51320:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong address
I did not remove the image. As you can see, I am not alone rejecting it. I would suggest you listen to what people say and try to improve. Using elbows won't work. Thanks. ←Humus sapiensну?11:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
3RR
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Thank you. ←Humus sapiensну?11:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You were warned about 3RR but you chose to violate it. Unless you self-revert quickly, you are subject to be reported and blocked. If you continue misbehaving, every subsequent block will become longer and eventually you will be banned. ←Humus sapiensну?11:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hours later, and you still did not revert. OK, I will let it go this first time, because you are a new user, and in the spirit of good faith. Nobody is against a good photo collage, but a few problems with yours are:
You forgot to include women. At least Golda Meir and Ayn Rand should be there.
No copyright information has been provided about the Grigory Perelman image. It appears to be copied from a wire service, but it is not in the wikimedia commons.
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Hi! Wanted to alert you that Wikipedia has a Three Revert Rule which prohibits editors from reverting an article more than 3 times in a 24-hour period. The purpose of the rule is to prevent an edit war between editors with different views from disrupting the encyclopedia. Violating the rule can result in being blocked. I don't feel inclined to enforce the rule as a first step, so I'm not going to check exactly how many reverts you made when, but please discuss differences with other editors rather than using back-and-forth reverting, and please do be aware of the rule and be sure to observe it in the future. If necessaary you can ask an administrator to help you, including protecting the page to prevent further problems. Thanks! Best, --Shirahadasha15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Got your note. The page is currently protected for the time being, so no-one can edit it for now. Please explain on Talk:Ashkenazi Jews why you think the set of pictures you are proposing is a better choice. Best, --Shirahadasha18:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please be sure to use the signature button on the edit tools or to add four tildes (~~~~) after your message. This "signs" your name and creates a link to your user page. Best, --Shirahadasha18:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like you were outvoted on this one - some of the other editors who weighed in are regular editors on the page and they would probably have visited it anyway. No worries -- these things happen. Suggest finding something else to help out with or another article of interest for the time being. Best, --Shirahadasha14:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A final thought. I wanted to thank you for coming up with the idea of adding a collage of pictures as a way to help spruce up the article. It's a really good touch. It adds a lot to the way the article looks. Even if others wanted to change some of the individual pictures, having a collage was your idea and you've made a lasting improvement. Best, --Shirahadasha01:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou, you can take of the protection now. Thanks for stoping the Edit-War there.M.V.E.i. 21:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
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Take a look. I tried to be politicaaly correct. Hope it's well done.
Those Estonians who we argue with are eated with self-hate. They know that their grandfathers from the forest brothers and the ss were creeps, and the fact that those creeps lost makes them even more self-hated. They will say enything to reduce their shame somehow. M.V.E.i. 21:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
See thats funny, they started an edit war, lost it, so now the're runing and complaining to anyone they could, they proved themselves to be true balts! Thats the baltic way, cheat, lie, and when they loose they run to Europe and NATO to complain they are being smashed. M.V.E.i. 19:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but what war did we start and what did we lost? The arguments we have very clearly won, as you have yet to answer adequately answer any of the questions (something that requires you to actually read those sources you give - it is now blindingly obvious that you haven't read them (that was made clear by your refutal of source you gave yourself) and, in fact, have no knowledge of history other then neo-Stalinist/neo-Nazi propaganda - all your "knowledge" comes from Google). You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view.
Your tactics so far have been dropping sources without reading them - and when asked a question, you ignore the question or try to lead the conversation to another topic - at best claiming that "sources" have the answers, even when they rather obviously don't. DLX19:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
1) It's not polite to burge into other peoples conversations. 2) I have answered to all your questions and gave reliable links, but you everytime i proved your clain to be wrong moved from version to version. Actually, this one "You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view" is presicely about you. By the way, i'm anti-Stalinist (The communists i support are Rikov and others like him). My knowledge comes from real historicle books, i gave you names. I used facts agreed by the whole world, exept the Baltic states, whose history books are widely recognized as Fiction. All your "knowledge" comes from Baltic-propoganda which's only cause is to reduce the Baltic shame. M.V.E.i. 19:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Your recent actions
Wikipedia is not forum or soapbox (WP:NOT), not is it a battleground (WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a battleground). Users are required to be civil and use civil language - "people must act with civility toward one another" (WP:CIV). Also, please stop edits to talk archive pages, they are called "Archives" for a reason.
You have been neither civil or reasonable - and you haven't used your edit rights for bettering Wikipedia. Instead you are pushing your very highly POV views (which differ significantly from any source in the world, including Soviet and Russian sources. Next time, please try to give some sources to outrageous claims).
What am I talking about? These: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] - I will not go to older edits then few days, though.
Now, as for user Beatles FF, I did not ask for his block - although, I have started to suspect that it was the best solution. His highly insulting edit summaries, promotion of racial hatred, edit warring without giving any reasons, refusing to discuss things without YELLING, bold and civilly ("Well, I get bored of your annoying comments.", "I presume you are a denier of the Holocost"), editing/deleting others and his own comments, refusing to accept even mildest criticism and taking it as a personal attack... I seriously doubt that he would have become a good editor and contributor to Wikipedia in the near future.
As for you, I do hope that you can find it in your heart to become civil, calm and reliable editor, who can meaningfully contribute to Wikipedia, always following NPOV guidelines, giving sources to your edits in articles - or sources to your claims in talk pages. DLX16:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DLX, i have been there, i took part in the arguments so don't try to fool me. Your comments were really ennoying because they were full of lies you wrote to make you feel better about your nationality. He already became a good editor, he deleted lies you wrote. He fought against vandalism, because you writing lies in articles is vandalism. My sources are the most real sorces in the world, my family in which everybody fought at The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945, and those who were under Nazi occupation and saw it all. M.V.E.i. 16:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please at least try to be calm and reasonable, I don't think it is too much to ask. Now, can you give some examples of my "lies" in both talk pages and in article, because as far as I know, I haven't said or inserted anything unsourced. Also, your family is not an acceptable source for Wikipedia, we really rather have verifiable sources here. And another thing - please give an example of few "good edits" done by Beatles Fab Four. DLX16:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you want good edits then check out all the times that Fab Four deleted your lies from articles. Examples of youre lies? easy:
Claiming Estonian SS was "didnt have a politcle wing" (Yeah, right, so they insisted to have the SS initials in their name because they liked the combination of the letters), claiming that the Estonian SS didnt kill any Jews (Thought the Estonians started the Holocaust in Estonia even before the Germans arrived their), and there was many other lies you wrote their, i just gave the to examples that came to my mind. M.V.E.i. 16:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please, let us stay on one talk page, easier for us both.
Now, here is the edit list for user Beatles Fab Four: [8]. Please go though that and give examples where he "deleted my lies".
I am not sure what you mean by "didnt have a politcle wing", as I am not familiar with the word "politcle". But, being WWII expert that you are, you must know that no Estonian was a member of Nazi party nor did any Estonian belong to SS-proper, only Waffen-SS. Like I quoted in the talk page:
The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen SS a criminal organisation, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:
Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.
In April 13, 1950, a message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by John McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:
The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.
It is simply ridiculous to think, that U.S. High Commission in Germany or Nurenberg Trials would have declared anything like that if there would have been even minor suspicion that the Baltic Waffen SS Units would have been involved in holocaust.
As for your repeated claim, that "the Estonians started the Holocaust in Estonia even before the Germans arrived", that is very clearly just a lie. See History of the Jews in Estonia - let me quote some relevant passages to you from there:
Approximately 200 Jews fought in combat in the Estonian War of Independence (1918-1920) for the creation of the Republic of Estonia. 70 of these men were volunteers. The creation of the Republic of Estonia in 1918 marked the beginning of a new era in the life of the Jews.
From the very first days of her existence as a state, Estonia showed her tolerance towards all ethnic and religious minorities. This set the stage for energetic growth in the political and cultural activities of Jewish society.
The cultural autonomy of minority peoples is an exceptional phenomenon in European cultural history. Therefore Jewish cultural autonomy was of great interest to global Jewish community. The Jewish National Endowment Keren Kajamet presented the Estonian government with a certificate of gratitude for this achievement.
The peaceful and active life of the small Jewish community in Estonia came to an abrupt halt in 1940 with the Soviet occupation of Estonia. Cultural autonomy in addition to all of its institutions was liquidated in July 1940. In July and August of the same year all organisations, associations, societies and corporations were closed. A large group of Jews (about 400) were deported into prison camps in Russia by the Soviet authorities on June 14, 1941.
Round-ups and killings of Jews began immediately following the arrival of the first German troops in Estonia in the summer of 1941, who were closely followed by the extermination squad Einsatzkommando (Sonderkommando) 1A, part of Einsatzgruppe A. Arrests and executions continued as the Germans advanced through Estonia. About 75% of Estonia's Jewish community, aware of the fate that otherwise awaited them, had managed to escape to the Soviet Union; virtually all the remainder (between 950 and 1000 men, women and children) were killed before the end of 1941. Fewer than a dozen Estonian Jews are known to have survived the war in Estonia.
From 1944 until 1988 the Estonian Jewish community, as elsewhere in the territories controlled by the Soviet Union, had no organisations, associations nor even clubs. The Soviet authorities were intolerant towards Zionism and all Jewry was generally equalled with Zionism.
So... let us see. Cultural independence, tolerance towards all ethnic and religious minorities, certificate of gratitude. Then, Soviets occupied Estonia and immediately sent 400 (or 500, number varies in different sources) Jews to prison camps. Very few of them were seen alive ever again.
75% of the rest fled to Soviet Union, as it was only way to go (actually, some escaped to Sweden, too - but I cannot find quickly a source for that. Nor is it relevant just now.). Germans came - and murdered the remaining Jews, no surprises there.
Soviets came back again. No cultural independence, no tolerance towards all ethnic and religious minorities, no organisations, associations nor even clubs.
Perestroika and Estonia regains independence:
Jewish Cultural Society was established in Tallinn. It was the first of its kind in the entire Soviet Union. Exceptionally in the Soviet Union, there were no problems with registering either the society or its symbols. The Society began by organising concerts and lectures. Soon the question of founding a Jewish school surfaced. As a start, a Sunday school was established in 1989. The Tallinn Jewish Gymnasium on Karu Street was being used by a vocational school. In 1990, a Jewish School with classes 1 through 9 was established.
Jewish culture clubs, which remained under the wing of the Cultural Society, were started in Tartu, Narva and Kohtla-Järve. Other organisations followed; the sports society Maccabi, the Society for the Gurini Goodwill Endowment and the Jewish Veterans Union. Life returned to the Jewish congregation. Courses in Hebrew were re-established. Thanks to the Jewish communities of Israel and other countries a relatively large library was opened.
The restoration of Estonian independence in 1991 brought about numerous political, economic and social changes. The Jews living in Estonia could now defend their rights as a national minority. The Jewish Community was established in 1992, and its charter was approved on April 11, 1992. Likewise, Estonia has traditionally regarded its Jews with friendship and accommodation. To illustrate this a new Cultural Autonomy Act, based on the 1925 law, was passed in Estonia in October 1993. This law grants minority peoples, such as Jews, a legal guarantee to preserve their national identities.
In 2005, construction began on a new building in Tallinn, which will house a sanctuary, mikvah, and restaurant, and will be a memorial to the pre-war synagogue. Opening is scheduled for May 2007.
Now... please tell me again, who mistreated Jews? And don't even try to claim that the article is written by "Nazi revisionists", as there are several Jews among the editors of the article - you cannot claim that they would allow any wrong ("Fascist") information to be said about history of the Jews. DLX17:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They had a choice, they were the once who chose it. Again, they started the holocaust before the Germans came.
Who cares what they decided in 1950. It was already the cold war offcourse they will try to suck-up to ex-Nazis to tear the Soviet Union from the inside. They were involved in the holocaust, it's a fact, ask any Estonian Jew. Jews always were in every independence movement so somwhere they would be excepted. I saw a ducumentary with Jews from Estonia who menneged to escape with the Soviets, and also Estinian vitnesses, and they told how Estonians closed hundreeds of Jews in every synogoge and burned them down. You're right about what was with the Jews in USSR (I'm half Jewish, my mother is Jewish, and my grand-grandpa set in Jail there for a short time for teaching Hebrew), but nevertheless, the Soviets didn't give to Estonians to make pogroms at Jews. By the way, at the days of the Tallin Liberator reburial there were many interviews with Jews from Estonia telling how Estonians murdered their people then.
All the Jewqish community activities in the 80s and 90s was spoonsored by the Jews, and dont forget in 1987-1989 it was still the Soviet Union. Estonia is desperate for world support, thats why for now the Jews are safe there. Offcourse there are Jews among the writers of the article, but there are also Estonians. M.V.E.i. 17:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You know, you are pushing your personal - and I might add, highly racist - opinion. Come up with a single source of "started the holocaust before the Germans came", because now it has as much base as my claim that President Putin is a Tooth Fairy. And do you really think cold war matters (it had not started during the Nuremberg Trials, fyi), when we are talking about crimes against humanity? How petty-minded can you get? Please look at the sources, the facts... none of them support your version of history, just face it, you are wrong.
And please do not disregard my other questions/replies, that was the favourite tactic of FBB as well - yell really loudly "You all are fascists" and keep repeating it, no matter what is said by others. DLX17:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fact and i explained you why and from where i took it. Putin cant be a Tuth Fairy, she's to tall for him. The cold war began when USSR was founded, it just didn't have the name yet. And abou your question, America spreat so much lies about the USSR, like saying Borman is a Russian spy (And todey even they confess it was a lie), and Senathor Joseph MacArthy who even commited crimed against humanity. Infact, USA contenued the previously-stoped cold war already at the Race For Berlin, which the Soviets won. Already at the founding of the United Nations Security Council Britain made shure France will get a seat there so the west could have more seats there (France, the country who lay as a carpet infront of the Nazis). The cold war was always in the air. M.V.E.i. 18:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I think I've done with both this discussion and editing Wikipedia for today. There is really no point to discuss this further, as you fail to provide any sources (where is the explanation for "why and from where i took it"?) or even look at any source/information I provide. Estonians have never hated or hurt the Jews, that is a simple fact (fyi, my best friend is a Jew, several Estonian "national treasures" are Jews (Eino Baskin and Eri Klas, for example)). Hopefully in the future you can open your mind for different views - for example, read different history books, all Russian, English and American. You cannot presume all of them are lying. Thank you for the discussion and I hope that our next meeting will be in better circumstances. DLX18:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We will prove that DLX is a constant lier. READ THIS DLX
In May 2005, Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip gave a speech while visiting Klooga in which he both condemned the Holocaust and accepted that Estonian citizens were complicit in committing war crimes during WWII: Although these murderers must answer for their crimes as individuals, the Estonian Government continues to do everything possible to expose these crimes.
I apologise for the fact that Estonian citizens could be found among those who participated in the murdering of people or assisted in the perpetration of these crimes.
THATS what i was talking about. It's a fact that Estonians, together with Latvians and Lithuenians had the highest precent of population helping to the Nazis in Europe. And DLX saying that the Estonians didn't participate in the German war-crimes, just proves my point, im Psychology this is called denial, one of the most not healthiest in Defence Mechanism. M.V.E.i. 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how the Ansip quote makes DLX a lier. The tragic fact is there were Nazi collaborators throughout Europe. The French did not necessarily acquit themselves well, either. All DLX said was Estonia wasn't murdering Jews to make less work for the Nazis when they arrived: which is your contention. All the Baltic states have acknowledged those who were complicit in Nazi crimes. The Latvian president, in fact, just received the highest award which the American Jewish Council bestows.
Your tirades about Baltic Nazis ("highest percentage of population participating"--your source would be?) are your opinion only.
I do not deny Russia and her Soviet-era veterans celebrating the victory over Nazism. However, I do deny Russia still insisting the Soviet Union "liberated" the Baltics--and that anything anti-Soviet = anti-(anti-Nazi hero) = Nazi. You have been listening to too much Russian propaganda. You are welcome to believe what you wish, but you are not welcome to spew it without reputable sources to properly substantiate your statements. — Pēters J. Vecrumba07:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Balts started murdering Jews so when German arrive they will see how loytal they are. YOU have been listening to much to Baltic lies that the whole world critisizes. The French colaborate with everybody they are not a role model for a brave nation, but nevertheless, the Balts colaborated more then anybody else. The soviet uniaon Liberated the Baloric states from the Nazis, anyway, the Balts who don't agree with that aw ho dont feel liberated, why dont they agree with that? Because they though that in the Nazi world they would get a place for "loyalty" to the Nazis and finaly will feel "Big People". M.V.E.i.
Please provide evidence citing a respected Jewish organization, say the American Jewish Council or the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which backs up your claim that the Balts were murdering Jews to ingratiate themselves to the Nazis before the Nazis even arrived.
Don't mistake the initial welcoming of the invading Nazis for eagerly embracing Jew-murderers, it was purely a response to the Soviets having been driven out after a year of the NKVD and Red Army having ravaged the Baltics and its inhabitants. The Nazis had their own plans for subjugating the Baltics, but for the moment, they allowed the national anthems to once again play on the airwaves.
In reference to Baltic Jews, in that first year of Soviet occupation prior to the Nazi invasion, Stalin had already decimated the Jewish merchant ("bourgeousie") class, liquidating thousands of Jews--murdered or deported to their deaths in Siberia, just like the Balts--before Hitler even arrived. If you had Jewish family or relatives in the Baltics who were murdered during the first Soviet occupation, it was Stalinism, not Nazism, that killed them. — Pēters J. Vecrumba15:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(Ok there are to much Balts spoiling MY talk page). ITS A KNOWN FACT, it's like asking: Find me a link in the internet that fire burns if you touch it, but if you want, please:
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/lithuania1/lithuania1.html
and the quotes:
Unlike other Nazi-occupied countries, where most Jewish citizens were put to death in gas chambers, a large majority of Jews in the Baltic countries were slaughtered brutally with firearms and other weapons by their Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian neighbors (sometimes under German supervision).
Children in the Kovno ghetto, whose friends had been murdered by Lithuanians, wrote in Lithuanian a bitter parody of the national anthem "Lithuania, Our Homeland":
Lithuania, Our Blood-Land
May you be accursed for centuries
Let your blood flow
Like the blood of Jewish children". (and so on)
Just type Baltic states jews murder in google and you will get more, this are only the forst two.
Finaly, you can read the book Tiggers in the Mudd, written by a Nazi soldier, where he wrote that when they arrived to Estonia all the Jewish houses were already smashed and many Jews were killed.
and there are many more like this! M.V.E.i. 17:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
No response? That's just nice. M.V.E.i. 11:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't check your userpage for messages unless we are actively discussing something. Secondly, the question here is whether Estonians had massacred Jews before arrival of Germans.
Your source [9] says "...Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian neighbors..". Mass pogroms in Latvia and Lithuania happened, but in Estonia, Soviets had deported all wealthier Jews (remember those 500 that were sent to Siberia? Shop and factory owners, university professors and scientists) and majority of other Jews had already gone to Soviet Union before Germans got there - around 1500 were still in Estonia. There were simply not enough Jews - nor wealthy Jews - for pogroms to happen (I think I will send an email to the professor that wrote it and ask for clarification). Those "smashed Jewish houses" that your beloved Nazi speaks of belonged to those that were already gone from Estonia - killed/deported by Soviets or fled. By the way, why do you think that he, a Nazi, spoke the truth, instead of trying to look as innocent as possible, by trying to drop guilt on others?
Also, none of your sources actually mentions that Jews were mass-killed before arrival of German troops in Estonia. See [10]: "Of the approximately 4,300 Jews in Estonia prior to the war, between 1,500 and 2,000 were entrapped by the Nazis. These Jews also met their death at the hands of the German Einsatzgruppe.", [11] "...1,000 Estonian Jews were killed three months after the Nazi army entered Estonia in 1941." , [12] "From early on, the Germans subjected Estonian Jews to harsh measures including confiscation of property and forcing them to wear yellow badges identifying them as Jews. These measures were only temporary as the Nazis prepared to murder all Estonian Jews. German SS and police units, together with Estonian auxiliaries, massacred the Jews of Estonia by the end of 1941.".
Nobody has denied that there were collaborators - in Baltic countries, same as in Russia and all over Europe - and that they participated in Holocaust. Soviet Union did extensive investigations after they re-occupied Estonia, I think I remember (not sure of this fact, but won't look for source just now - will do that later, though) that they had trials of 16 Estonians for participation in Holocaust. Most of those involved were probably killed during the war or fled Estonia, but altogether there may have been perhaps at most 100..200 Estonians involved (probably less). DLX10:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My friend, now we know that even freaks can start learning how to read. Do you remember his answer: none of Estonian ss legioners killed civil jews, Russians, etc. Now he admits that the figure is 100-200. It’s a big progress in his sad study, yeah. Beatle Fab Four15:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not (and won't ever be) your friend. Don't twist my words, I have "admitted" nothing like that. Waffen SS legion and collaborators are totally different things - these collaborators were not in Waffen SS legion, like you have been repeatedly told, especially since that aforementioned legion was not even formed then. I am sorry, if you cannot to understand even simplest words. Perhaps some additional pre-school classes are required? DLX17:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We won, now i argue with them just for fun, its just nice watching them trying to defend their-"dignity" (As if they have any left) and changing from one version to another (I already have a few more links prepared, but i wanna see them talking some more bullshit). M.V.E.i.
DLX, if anyone here should sit quiet it's you. You proved yourself as a true Estonian, trying to hit and when you see your to week going crying to administrators who are lazy to learn the case. Youve lost, then and now, as they say in those films, you have the right to remain silent everything you say will be used against you, it's called a knockout. M.V.E.i.
Also, you neglect Stalin's effect before the Nazis arrived. (Krushschev described Stalin as a virulent anti-Semite.) The Soviets deported or killed the Jewish civic and political elite during the first occupation, and Jews were included in the mass deportations of Balts the week before the Nazi invasion. www.jewishgen.org, the very site you mention (these numbers are only with regard to Latvia, the number across the Baltics is obviously a good deal higher):
estimates Jews were deported in the thousands; articles cited estimate 4,000-5,000, suffering numerically proportionally more at Stalin's hands than any other part of the Latvian population
and also suffering more than other ethnicities once deported (research by Dov Levin).
Because the Baltics had authoritarian regimes (as did pretty much all of Europe), that does not mean authoritarian equates to (bourgeousie) fascist equates to Nazi. That's Soviet propaganda, nothing more.
The most heinous manufacture of Soviet propaganda is not that the Soviets liberated the Baltics, but that Stalin and his Red Army were the glorious liberator of Hitler's death camps and saviors of the Jews--conveniently omitting Stalin's atrocities against the Jews of Eastern Europe. — Pēters J. Vecrumba15:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The Waffen SS Eastern European units were formed after the Nazi Holocaust had taken its toll. They were created to fight against the Red Army. — Pēters J. Vecrumba15:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
THIS RESPONSE IS TO BOTH ESTONIANS. Read the book Tigers in the Mudd, written by a Nazi soldier, where it's written black on white that when the Nazis arrived there were already burning pofroms made by the Estonians. Dont say same as in all Europe, you cant delete numbers from history. They didn't just shut up like the French (And French ain't an example of a people with dignity aren't they, thats why in comedies the French is always a coward), they colloborated more then anybody else, unlike Russia where only a few collaborated, the masses fought against the Nazis, that's why villages were burned and people hung all over, just read this book and other books. The Red Army libarated the Jews, it's a fact, don't try to change it (Like, who are you trying to say saved them, and don't tell me Estonians). YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE LINKS, it's written their about the Estonian SS to, your trying to change history thats all. And i'm not a deffender of Stalin, he's a creep alright, but in the competition "Creep no. 1" the Estonians manegged to goin Hittler in the first place, but you dont say congratulations for that do you. The Estonian SS also took part in the murder of Jews in death camps. M.V.E.i.
AND HERE IS THE KNOCKOUT. The two Estonians here first said that Estonians didn't killed Jews, after a gave them the links that prove they speak lies, they moved to a version that the Estonian SS didn't kill Jews, and here are the links that prove they are wrong:
There are more where that came from, it's juat the first links that came out in Google, just type Estonian SS Killing Jews. I've got Google so, knockout. M.V.E.i.
I've been following this discussion for quite a long time and I feel I can't keep silent anymore.
2. I really can't remember DLX claiming that "Estonians didn't killed Jews" (your words), so could you point out that place? Otherwise it seems that you are simply lying.
3. You should really read the articles that you link to, not simply look them up in Google. The second of your links (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005448) doesn't mention Estonian SS with a single word. Both others are part of Russian propaganda.
4. Read again what DLX wrote about your "Tiger in the Mud". Do you really think a Nazi soldier is a reliable source? Seems you trust Nazis too much.
5. A couple of links for you (seems you like adding links very much): http://www.holocausttaskforce.org/speeches/details/2006-07-04/document.pdf (I recommend page 16 especially). And one more - http://home.mira.net/~vanagi/AV/Latvian_Legion.pdf (about Latvian legion). A little quote: "We Americans were surprised with the just, good behaviour, kindness, and first class accuracy of the guards of the camp. Very soon, we found out that the guards of the camp were Latvians. Each of them kept hidden the Latvian national flag somewhere under their German uniform. They explained to us: "you Americans are our real friends and hope. The Germans are our hated enemies. Our dream and aim is the independent Latvia".
6. I tried to google "estonian ss kill jews" as you offered and got 50 100 results. You might think that's a lot? But then I tried to google "russia kill jews" and got 1 190 000 results! Yeah, Google really is a simple thing to find out the truth. Quercus schnobur12:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
1. All those baltic residents are the same for me, if you combine them into one you will get a 1/25 of a nation. 2. Just go to the talk page about the Liberator Of Tallinn, when he was asked how many Jews did estonians kill, he said "o because they didnt participate in the holocaust". 3. For you even if you will read British history books you will say "Russian Propaganda". i gave you facts, so sit quiet. 4. It's funny, you make out excuses to push out reliable sources. It's a reliabnle source because he just told what happend, offcourse he would try to show the German soldiers "as id they had no choice", but still it was recognized as a reliable objective source. He told only the truth there, if he would want to lie he would push it all on Russians, like you do, and he wouldn't agree how strong the Russians are. 5. The links you gave me are not reliable, esspecialy the second one, but the first one to. If you'll enter to Who We Are there you will see that this organization features representetives from many countries, including the Baltic ones, and they offcaurse affect there. It's not nutral. Yeah, the Germans are your Enemies yet you were their uniforms and also "worked hard" for the SS in their name. And offcaurse America would write it, after world War 2 when the Cold War is burning and they need friends agains the Russians. P.S. if you want a real american link that could be trusted check this out http://www.remember.org/secrets/ and heres an Australian one http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1997/2214/ozols.html and another nice one http://www.jewishgen.org/latvia/SIG_Newsletter/0702_SIG_January_2003.pdf 6. Results 1 - 10 of about 50,100 for Estonian SS kill Jews. (0.09 seconds). You Balts try to represent lies as truth so you could lower your national shame, it will never happen, the history is against you. M.V.E.i. 18:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Am I dreaming? You call an organization an unreliable source because it "features representetives from many countries"? You must be joking. And you still haven't provided a proof that DLX said that Estonians didn't kill jews, I couldn't find nothing of that kind in Bronze Soldier of Tallinn talk page (I guess that's what you mean with "Liberator Of Tallinn"). If there is one, it should easily be found here. If you can't find it you have to admit that you have lied. And still, none of the three sources you provided doesn't mention Baltic legions with a single word. Quercus schnobur11:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just ask Fab Four, he've seen it i think, or even better, ask DLX, i'm not shore he'll denie it. The quote, i said, when we asked him how many Jews were killed by the Estonians he said "0, because they didn't participate in the holocaust". Estonian SS, Latvian police, it aint enough for you huh? than take this http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/worldwar2.htm (go to Holocaust, paragraph 2). http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/nollend_hist.htm . There are many more from where those came from. M.V.E.i. 17:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, what I said was that Estonian SS-Legion didn't participate in Holocaust in Estonia (they weren't formed before 1942, Holocaust in Estonia was done by the end of 1941) - or abroad. This still stands, and you haven't given any sources contradicting that (actually, that "abroad" is questionable, as they were stationed in a city (in Belorus, if my memory serves me correctly), during a murder of Jews there. However, they were one unit out of many there and there is no evidence of their involvement. Also, Germans usually used purely German units in such places.). But enough of that - did you actually read the second source that you gave, History of the Occupation of Latvia (1940-1991)? This is an excellent source about Soviet and German occupations - and Holocaust - which contradicts many things that you have claimed. Everything in there seems to be very solidly sourced in both English and Latvian, cannot say for sure, as I read it only briefly. DLX18:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Check out all the links i have given here, and you will see that the Estonian SS was not only in Estonia but elso in other countries, where it participated in the murdering of Jews. In Estonia etself most of the Jews were destroyed by 1943, by Germans and mainy by the locals, but some were still left after 1943, and they were destroyed by the Estonian SS. Just read the links i have given here. And the web site you gave me is not reliable, it's Latvian, and the Baltic goverments now try to re-write history so it would lower their shame, esspecially now that thay want to be Europe (thought they didn't make and contribution to Europe, the opposite is true). The text i gave you are perfectly sourced and are basid on historic document, if you want read it word by word and not briefly. M.V.E.i. 18:34, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Blocked
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for repeated abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.
You, sir, have been disrupting various talk pages with your personal attacks against all and sundry who do not share your particular point of view. This stops now. Once your block expires, you can disagree with whomever you want as strongly as you want, but you will please do it with perfect civility, or you will face decidedly longer blocks. Sandstein21:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't write PD-old, i wrote PD-art. Point of view?? You started blocking people and you didn't even learn the case. This Estonian wrote lies, he tried to lie about World War 2 to make himself feel less shame about his nationallity. He wrote such obvious lies, that it was just pure vandalism. You, by blocking us instead of him, took part in this vandalism, because now those few Estonians who write lies there could write anything they want, and there will be no one to stop them. M.V.E.i. 16:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You, dear sir, are a liar. I am in no way shamed about my "nationallity", perhaps the opposite might apply. How about actually showing where I lied or vandalized the article, instead of using Soviet-style propaganda BS? I have asked for proof from you quite several times by now - you have failed to respond. And you really should apologize to Estonians for your racist remarks. DLX20:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm proud of mine. You are shames, thats why you lie, to reduce your shame. Examples of lies are when you said Estonian SS didn't kill any Jews, and you had many other like that. M.V.E.i. 21:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Together we will win. We all ordinary Russians condemn Stalin crimes, but this DLX cannot admit elementary things about Estonian WW2 crimes. BTW he constantly purges wiki articles on such crimes. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.211.20021:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We already won, in 1945. The truth is one, and there are to many people that know it, so DLX could not change it. By the way, about the Sandstein or whatever who blocked us, i knew that would happen. He's a German, so i expected it. He didn't say anything to DLX about what he does. M.V.E.i. 21:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Those Estonians can shout till the morrning, that still won't change the fact there liers. I dont even care about the block, its temporery, the truth is eternal. M.V.E.i. 21:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. you were blocked for violating the 3 revert rule right? check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules i think that fighting vandalizm improves articles. By fighting vandalism and ignoring the 3 revert rule you followed by this rule that i gave you the link to it. M.V.E.i. 21:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:8_May_2007.JPG listed for deletion
Dear uploader: The media file you uploaded as Image:8_May_2007.JPG has been listed for speedy deletion because you selected a copyright license type implying some type of restricted use, such as for non-commercial use only, or for educational use only oder for use on Wikipedia by permission. While it might seem reasonable to assume that such files can be freely used on Wikipedia, this is in fact not the case[13][14]. Please do not upload any more files with these restrictions on them, because content on Wikipedia needs to be compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License, which allows anyone to use it for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial. See our non-free content guidelines for more more information.
If you created this media file and want to use it on Wikipedia, you may re-upload it (or amend the image description if it has not yet been deleted) and use the license {{GFDL-self-no-disclaimers}} to license it under the GFDL, or {{cc-by-sa-2.5}} to license it under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license, or use {{PD-self}} to release it into the public domain.
If you did not create this media file but want to use it on Wikipedia, there are two ways to proceed. First, you may choose one of the fair use tags from this list if you believe one of those fair use rationales applies to this file. Second, you may want to contact the copyright holder and request that they make the media available under a free license.
They are not copyrigted, cmmon is that your way to fight me? Saying on Free-Domains there copyrighted? Nice. Their license were copied excecly as they were writen on their original pages on Wikipedia. M.V.E.i. 18:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I am not fighting you. I am trying to make you conform to our policies. You did not specify the images' source, as you must under the image use policy. Please read it, and follow it. These were Soviet medals, and I am quite sure the Soviet government didn't licence anything under a Creative Commons licence. Sandstein18:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Go to the Soviet Medals page and see. M.V.E.i. 18:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok that i didn't know, thanks. M.V.E.i. 20:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
License tagging for Image:FromSiezd.JPG
Thanks for uploading Image:FromSiezd.JPG. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.
For more information on using images, see the following pages:
This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 19:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Listen, you must urgently read and apply our image use policy. The image you uploaded, File:FromSiezd.JPG(edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), has no source ("the website" isn't a valid source) and you have improperly tagged it as {{PD-Art}}. It's a contemporary photograph, and obviously not a reproduction of a two-dimensional work of art that is in the public domain. Please bring this image and all the other images you uploaded into compliance with the image use policy immediately. You will be blocked from editing Wikipedia for any further copyright violations. Sandstein05:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are you spying on my contribution pahe or somthing so you could find a reasin to block me?? I saw it doesnt fit so i deleted it after a few minutes. M.V.E.i. 18:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not trying to find a reason to block you, I'm trying to make you conform to our policies. And no, you did not delete the image, because you cannot. It is still uploaded. Click here to see it. Please bring it into conformance with the WP:IUP immediately. Sandstein18:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That i don't know hoe to do, BUT if you like you can do that. I nevertheless de;eted it from the article i have puted it into. If you would like you can explaine me the next thing, what license fits a public domain from the internet. M.V.E.i. 19:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
No, it is important that you know how to handle images properly, or you could get Wikipedia into legal trouble. Please read WP:IUP and ask if you have any specific questions. As to your question, if an image is in the public domain, it does not have a licence. It must have a image copyright tag, though. You must now add the correct source of the image to the image page, and then you must apply the correct image copyright tag, which you can select from here. Sandstein19:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to follow what they say but it still didn't come out right. M.V.E.i. 19:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's wrong. The source link must be outside the template. There is no copyright tag {{CopyrightedFreeUse}}. And why do you think this image is in the public domain? Where does it say so on the website? Sandstein19:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know the menneger of the website, it's free alright. Anyway, please help, what licence do i put if it's a free photo from the Internet? M.V.E.i. 16:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The correct tag would be {{PD-author}}. But that you know the manager of the website is not enough. You must only upload Web-found PD images if there is proof, which others can verify, that the image is PD. For instance, a statement on the website that says "our images are public domain". Without such proof, your uploads are presumed to be copyright infringements. Sandstein18:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't delete their lies, by nevertheless you deleted the links i gave that prove my point. M.V.E.i. 18:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for repeated disruption of article talk pages with offtopic inflammatory political discourse. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.
How do they give people like you to be administrators. M.V.E.i. 21:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
image: 8_May_2007.JPG
The image file name and quote is inaccurate:
"The statue at the new location. Photo taken on May 8, 2007 (European VE Day), when a quiet ceremony was held. On the next day, May 9, 2007 (Russian Victory Day), the place was crowded with people and flowers."
On the picture the visible people include from the left:
2nd: Nikolay Uspensky - Russian ambassador in Estonia
4th (with white hair): Nikolay Kovalev - leader of the Russian State Duma delegation
6th (younger man at the forefront): Leonid Slutsky - member of the Russian State Duma delegation
Russian State Duma delegation visited the new location of the statue on May 1st. On 8th May they had already left Estonia. Russian Embassy and the ambassador in Estonia refused to take part in the 8th May activities of reopening the site. Russian Embassy visited site on 9th May.
This photograph is most certainly taken on May 1st.
Notable is also, that contrary to WIKI traditions, the image is supplied only in low resolution thumbnail, without original version in actual resolution, including EXIF data.
Yeah but it's afree domain so many could use it. For East-Europeans the 9th May is the Victory Day. M.V.E.i. 10:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I understand from the image summary that you've received permission from the copyright owner of this image to release it into the public domain. For this to be valid on Wikipedia you need to send it in to [email protected] - full details can be found Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. Without this evidence, the image may still be deleted. 09:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I already deleted it from the E-Mail, but the fact that people found it on different Web-Sites it's the prove that it's a Public Domain. Besides, it's not a special permission for Wikipedia to use it, it's just me asking if it's a public domain and them answering that it is. The article from which i took it was from the 8th may, so. ok this one came out as a stupid mistake from me. Anyway, it does'nt change the fact that it's a Public Domain. M.V.E.i. 11:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The fact that other websites use it does not automatically make the image public domain. Without the evidence it it just your word and Wikipedia relies on the principles of verification - WP:V so unfortunately that isn't good enough. I'm going to tag the image as {{PUIdisputed}} as this needs to be discussed further.Madmedea15:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The guys from the web-site told me so, that it's a PD. M.V.E.i. 19:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
It's a shame if you'll take it of there, it's a really good photo. M.V.E.i. 20:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
"Stupid" arguments
Please refrain from using offensive language in your discussions, like the one on the discussion page of Russians in Ukraine. [15] Characterizing an opponent or his comments as "stupid" is uncivil and is uncalled for. (see WP:NPA) If your behaviour doesn't change you will be reported to the administrators. Hope it will not be necessary.--Hillock6519:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When did i call nyone stupid there? M.V.E.i. 19:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, i have seen. Sorry, i ment that tryiung to hurt other nationalities is stupid i didn't try to insult you, sorry. M.V.E.i. 19:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is your last warning. The next time you upload an inappropriate image, such as Image:NotGivinUp.JPG, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. This also applies to Image:Anti-Vandalism.JPG and Image:Honour.JPG. You re-uploaded these presumably copyrighted images after being warned about it, and you mislabeled them as {{cc-by-2.5}}. Sandstein 18:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
