Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

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Template:LocateMe

There is discussion in a number of places (e.g. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#LocateMe bot WikiProject Geographical coordinates and here) as to whether Template:LocateMe should be placed on the article page or the talk page. 540 articles have been tagged with this template to date (e.g. User:SatyrBot/Project log 31). If you're interested in whether & when nagging templates can be placed in the article space, please consider adding your thoughts at Template talk:LocateMe. --Tagishsimon (talk)

Suggest CSD U4 for chat pages

I have proposed to add a new rule for speedy deletion, which will cover all user and user talk pages which are devoted exclusively to communicating with other people about topics nothing to do with Wikipedia. It's hard to quantify that, but for something like "Hey Pikeyboy, Where R U? OMG WTF BBQ SOS" (which I tagged for deletion just now), I know it when I see it. Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Suggest new criterion for chat pages.

Policy on the use of "cleanup" and other templates in articles

This was originally posted on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals), which was apparently the wrong place, so I moved it here. See that page for the original edit history. --PeR 21:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Recently there's been a trend of tagging large numbers of articles for "cleanup" of various kind. This is done using templates, similar to this one:

There problem with these templates is:

• They are aimed at the editors, yet they are prominently displayed to the readers.
• They are ugly, and add no value to the article itself. (If the article is substandard, the reader will notice anyway.)

These tags are, of course, valuable to editors who want to search for pages to work on, but this would be just as easy if the tags were placed on the talk pages instead.

I'd like to propose the following policy:

Template messages may be placed in articles only if:

• They are aimed at the readers (for example NPOV warnings)
• They convey urgent information to editors (for example AfD or "under construction" messages)

Otherwise the message belongs on the talk page.

An exception should probably be made for "stub" messages, especially categorized ones, as those do provide some useful links to the reader.

Once this policy has become official, I'd like to let a robot move many of the cleanup messages onto talk pages where they belong.

--PeR 06:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the issues discussed in the essay Wikipedia:Readability. {{Articleissues}} has been developed to condense the size created by these templates. –Pomte 07:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The whole point is they're ugly, hence why stuff sometimes gets done (it's sort of like a badge of shame). Matthew 07:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer Wikipedia not to be ugly. That's why I'm proposing this policy. In general, I believe that positive feedback has a better effect on people than negative feedback. I.e. you'd get more cleanup done by saying "good job" to somebody who does cleanup, than by slapping an ugly tag to an otherwise good (but incomplete) article that somebody spent a lot of work writing. --PeR 07:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

But that (positive feedback instead of negative feedback) is not what your proposal advocates. You are just advocating moving the negative feedback around. By accepting its existence, you are implicitly accepting that some form of negative feedback is desirable. So I think that argument is not really to the point here. The second problem is that even without these tags on the main articles, many rough-and-ready articles would still be "ugly". In fact, some of them are designed to prompt people to remove ugliness. The third problem is that these tags perform a valuable service to readers, by pointing out problems that they might not otherwise be aware of (e.g. "this article has not been checked against sources and may not be reliable") - or by pointing out that an obviously badly-written and badly-formatted article is not acceptable to Wikipedians, thus illustrating that Wikipedia is not an anything-goes environment, and we do have standards.—greenrd 09:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If they had done a lot of work on the article, it probably wouldn't need a tag. If the tag was on the talk page, a lot of editors – me included – way well miss it as we whizz around checking recent changes and things. If you don't have a specific reason to view the talk page, you probably won't do so. Related to that; I often leave notes/advice regarding improvements on the talk pages of new articles, particularly if the creating editor is clearly a novice. Do they read them? I have yet to see any evidence of it. At least the tag is sure to get noticed if it is kept on the article. Some templates go into sections instead, don't forget. Adrian M. H. 17:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is why I have previously argued for an indicator on the article page that an article has new talk since the user's last visit to that article, kind of like how we're notified that we have new user talk. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 21:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with greenrd and Adrian M. H above. The best solution is to improve the article so the tag is not needed or appropriate. Many of these tags serve as useful warnings to readers not to take the article's contents uncritically, nor to assume that it is typical of Wikipedia. Even ones addressed to editors or potential editors are far more noticeable on the article itself, and please remember that every reader is a potential editor. A reader who sees a tag may choose to make the needed improvements, or some of them. I favor such tags being sued primarily on the articles themselves, when they are warranted. DES ^(talk) 17:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That is one of the things that encouraged me to edit anonymously prior to creating an account: namely, seeing articles that were clearly described as having some issues that, to the average reader, may not be obvious. Readers do not necessarily have the eye to spot problems, which only really develops with active editing. Tagging for issues can encourage participation. Adrian M. H. 17:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a wiki, so Readers and Editors are the same people. If some people don't quite understand that they can edit yet, this should be explained, and they should be encouraged to edit. And guess what, these templates do just that! :-) --Kim Bruning 18:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Readers and editors are, technically, not always the same. The content of Wikipedia is freely distributable under the GFDL, and may be copied onto websites that don't allow editing, computers without internet connections, or even printed media. But that's beside the point. In practice, most people who read a given article on Wikipedia will not ever edit it. Even active wikipedians read many more articles than they edit. Making a good and beautiful encyclopedia for the readers should be our foremost priority. There are many ways of communication that don't involve cluttering the articles. --PeR 21:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the current system, perhaps a reader might even be induced to make his/her first edit to remove the tag. Aaron Bowen 22:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with the above. The likelihood is that a reader only will already have some knowledge of the subject matter and may be able to contribute, and the same non editor reader will unlikely read the talkpage. Sometimes templates make good fishing nets. LessHeard vanU 12:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I actually made my first edits upon looking at an article, seeing it had a cleanup tag, and saying "Oh! I could do that." Any reader is potentially an editor. There's no divide between the two, all readers are allowed and encouraged to edit if they so desire. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 12:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The tag is important for mere readers, as it advises that the content may not be based in references or sources, wich means that there would be an important risk of it being inexact, mistaken, outdated, or even a big lie Perón 13:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• I would say this tag is important in encouraging readers to become editors. There's quite a lot of users here that started by surfing onto an ugly page and thinking hey, I can fix that. >Radiant< 16:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
• I agree with Perón. Often, when content is considered dubious, editors will, out of courtesy, phrase their criticism in terms of "cleanup" issues. In those cases at least, it is useful for readers to see the templates. Also, even when you're only talking about wikification, etc., it's useful the same way it is when software is called "beta" — the distributor is telling you "this isn't our best work; there may be some kinks." I think it makes sense not to deprive the reader of that information before he encounters the first "bugs". Joeldl 19:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• I dislike these templates. They are big ugly in-your-face blots, and, since they appear on practically every other article you look at, they make the whole of Wikipedia look like it's broken and useless. Not a great impression to give to visitors. It would be a big help if they looked nicer and were more discreet. Matt 02:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea behind this proposal - it wants to make Wiki pretty, and user presentable. But on reflection, I think it misses and potentially detracts from two key issues within Wiki - an encyclopedia that anyone can edit; that the quality of Wiki is both dependent on that input and the self-managing body of editors. The tag may not be pretty, but its a quality tag that says - "this is not up to our standards we would expect of presenting you" and secondly "why not help us improve it?" On reflection, nice idea but misses the ethos of this place for me. Rgds, --Trident13 11:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think everyone can agree that templates that say something like "This article needs an infobox" definitely do not belong on the article page. Lack of an infobox is not an article killer but rather a lack of capsulized information. That an article is simply incomplete doesn't need to be represented by any template on the article page unless the article is an outright stub. "This article needs to be cleaned up" also falls into this, as it simply connotes "this article is not finished yet" -- but when is an article finished anyway? I would only alert article readers to things like POV or lack of references, as that will help them decide how seriously to deal with what they're reading. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 21:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • You would be wrong, as i do not agree with that proposition. In particular i do not agree that "This article needs to be cleaned up" means the same as "this article is not finished yet". To me a general cleanup tag normally means that there are multiple significant problems with an article, oftne including formatting, tone, sources, and/or NPOV. In fact I often translate it as "If this article isn't significantly improved soon, it may be deleted; in the mean time don't mistake it for a Wikipedia article of reasonable quality". I always put cleanup tags on the article itself, and i plan to continue. An "infobox needed" tag might be a different matter, but then i can't recall when i last used such a tag. DES ^(talk) 22:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
    • DESiegel, nothing personal, but I'm elated that you fell into the trap I set. The truth of the matter is that the Cleanup tag is arbitrary and meaningless. It needs to be broken down into specific tags, some of which belong on the article page and some which do not. A tag that goes on the article page should clearly be about warning the reader that they have reason to question the material due to a specific reason, not the vague "this needs cleanup". Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 22:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I disagree. i find the general cleanup tag useful and i often use it on articles, and I plan to continue to do so. In many cases i also note on the talk page in more detail what I see as needed. I don't see any trap here, but if you intended to "set a trap" that is ahrdly polite discussion, IMO. I find the geenral tag useful particularly where there are multiple problems, as there often are. I really have no more to say about this. DES ^(talk) 00:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
        • If I decided to start being impolite, you'd know it. To tell someone they fell into a trap is a debate technique and perfectly valid. Anyway, the cleanup tag is obviously vague, and in the Wikipedia, we need to work on avoiding vague communications with readers and editors. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 05:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

OTHER TEMPLATES: This discussion is also pertinent to the Template:infoboxrequested template. A couple months ago, it was decided that this template was a cleanup template that belonged on the article, not the talk page. Recently there has been some (heated) debate about this. I believe this discussion applies to the INFOBOXREQUESTED discussion as well. I think infoboxrequested is the same as the cleanup banner, and it should be treated the same... if it goes on the TALK page that's fine, but as long as we're consistent here... looking forward to this discussion! Timneu22 00:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No, please don't mislead people into thinking we need consistency across cleanup templates. Some are obviously more important than others such as NPOV and "contradicts itself" style over say Template:Infoboxrequested. The infoboxrequested template deserves to stay on the talk page, its a minor issue regarding the arrangement of information, not a glaring error in the article. There was NO prior consensus as you claim, unless you mean the non-discussion at the Village Pump and the no-real-consensus at Template talk:Infoboxrequested. - hahnchen 00:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

There was a secondary discussion, hahnchen. The issue was discussed on WP:VP more than once. Timneu22 00:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide any actual links to back up that assertion? All you've done is say "there was discussion" and then link to WP:VP (which is like saying "Ohh, there's a journal article about that" and then linking to Nature (journal). I've tried looking for some evidence of this alleged discussion and I've only dredged up the one non-discussion that Hahnchen found above. My guess is that you're just making this up. There never was a real discussion about this; you're just saying "Oh, but we decided on the village pump ..." without it actually having occurred. Prove me wrong. --Cyde Weys 01:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all, your honor Cyde, the "non-discussion" had a user agree to put the template on the article; there were no "nay" votes. The second discussion was here and archived before I could get to it. I don't have the link. I'm sure you think this is too convenient. Secondly, there is proof that the infoboxrequested tag works far better on the article than on the talk page. Timneu22 10:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is very convenient for you. You do know that archived does not mean deleted, right? So thus it's still around somewhere, most likely in the archive? Until you provide a link to this supposed discussion, which I cannot seem to find, we'll have to assume that it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong. --Cyde Weys 14:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Look, man, I'm tired of your attitude. I'm a MediaWiki administrator of two wikis, so I know the processes and I know when things are deleted and when they are not. I don't care one way or the other about the placement of some stupid tag; I just wish you would have respected the discussions that had occurred before you decide to revert, etc. Approved bots and policies? You don't seem to care. Frankly, I know that the tag belongs on the article because 1) it gets results and 2) it is a cleanup tag. This discussion is about cleanup tags and I will agree with the behavior that is discussed here. Timneu22 17:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"I just wish you would have respected the discussions that had occurred before" — pardon the vulgarity, but what fucking discussions?! I've looked up and down for them and asked you for a link to these discussions five times now. You can't keep citing something over and over without any proof that it even exists. Or, if that's allowed now, the Invisible Pink Unicorn says that you're wrong. --Cyde Weys 02:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm wrong based on what? Let's take that VP link that we have found. Two people say "Article." I don't see you weighing in. Where were you then? Later, a bot is approved to make changes in accordance with the policy. Where were you to block the bot approval? How can I be the only one who is wrong here? It seems like things got approved for one method. Sorry you don't like it. And YES, I cannot find the other link because I didn't comment on it. It's difficult to keep track of these pages that get archived so often. And again, I don't care where the tag goes, I'll follow the rules that are established. And hopefully this time you will too. Timneu22 10:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you seriously blaming me not being around? Do you think I'm somehow responsible for keeping track of the over one million (yes, that's one million) discussion pages distributed throughout the various namespaces?! It's a basic fact of life on Wikipedia that you'll never get all of the people who are interested in an issue starting from merely the first discussion. That doesn't mean that you can just ignore everyone else's viewpoints because they differ from the first discussion. There are no binding decisions on Wikipedia. That original "discussion" you had had very limited input, and it produced an incorrect result. Once more people got involved with it, the result changed. Things change; deal with it. You cannot keep referring back to this extremely limited first discussion like it is God's word because we've had a much more extensive discussion since and the consensus has changed. --Cyde Weys 14:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

>>That doesn't mean that you can just ignore everyone else's viewpoints because they differ from the first discussion.

That is exactly what happened though. Those who impulsivly reverted the bot's edits (without regard to losing edits prior to the bot's) and blocked it had no interest in discussion or trying to solicit the opinions of others. --Android Mouse 01:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the whole point I've been trying to make to Cyde but he doesn't get it. Timneu22 10:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought the article thing was a good idea. It made the pages get attention. Cyde, you should see the results it created. I don't know why you're so upset. I think the policy has been around for two months or so. ClintonKu 21:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Out of all the tags to put on an article I believe general ones like a cleanup tag should be removed. This doesn't really tell the readers what is sepcifically wrong, just that the article is subpar. If we are going to have these suggestion-type templates on the article then tags like infoboxrequested should be the first to be allowed, since they are very specific requests that can be handled relativly quickly compared to some of the others. --Android Mouse 00:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I also think that if infoboxrequested is ultimately on the talk page, then we need an automatic bot to search and destroy this tag when the article includes an infobox. The main problem is that the tag exists unneccessarily on most talk pages because no one looks at talk pages. I think Android Mouse's recent bot took care of this issue, however. Timneu22 00:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it did do that. If the consensus is reached to have the infoboxrequired tag stay on the talk page, I'll make a request for approval (and unbanning) for this purpose. --Android Mouse 04:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Letting people know an article is subpar is useful. The alternatives available to me are 1)putting a tag on an article, 2)cleaning up an article for a subject I know nothing about, and that I possibly think shouldn't be on WP 3)some form of deletion. I'll usually tag an article and leave it for a couple of weeks to see if anyone can do anything about the article. Maybe the addition of cites, or more information, can turn a subpar stump into something interesting to read. Then, if no-one makes any contribs I tag for deletion. Dan Beale 11:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Not that I completly disagree with what you are saying, but if we kept to such a standard we wouldn't have a fourth of the articles we do now, which might be a good thing. --Android Mouse 19:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Making WP:NPOVT policy

Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial is linked from the main neutral point-of-view policy and the page has existed for years now. I think it's about time we add a {{policy}} oder {{guideline}} template or something similar. -- tariqabjotu 15:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

A tutorial is a suppliment to policy to help you learn to use the policy effectively. It is not and should not be marked as a policy itself. As for guideline - might be appropriate, but I don't see why it needs it. It's a tutorial, and it says so right in the title of the page. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 21:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

How about we add some HTML markup similar to a tag to it that renders "C'est nes pas un tag"?  ;) Seriously, I don't think it needs a template...or, if so, {{essay}} would probably be the best choice. --Iamunknown 01:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

How about placing {{essay}} on it, then? That seems appropriate. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 23:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose. --Iamunknown 05:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to make people download a font to see an "unfree" unicode codepoint?

This is related to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#ISA resolved.

If you've been living under a rock, the dispute is about the International Symbol of Access. It's copyrighted and only allowed to be used under unfree terms (basically don't use it if the thing isn't accessible), so it has been replaced by a free alternative: .

There is an alternative: one of the recent updates to the unicode standard added it as a codepoint: ♿ To me, that shows up as a question mark, since I don't have a font that includes it. To those that do have such a font, it's the ISA.

I'm no lawyer, but I would assume that describing the ISA in two vector graphics formats - SVG and whatever the font uses - are equivalent. Thus distributing a font with the ISA in it is identical to distributing an SVG of the ISA. (If I'm wrong, I could legally distribute a font in which every character is a frame from a movie.)

Thus using the unicode codepoint is requiring the end user to download something unfree. (This seems similar to our use of OGG rather than MP3; MP3 players are de facto free as in beer, but not free as in freedom.) A distribution of Wikipedia on a DVD or other fixed media would have to include that unfree font to ensure that end users don't see question marks.

What do others think about this? --NE2 06:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Right off the bat I have to say this, even if we don't use the unicode character, we still don't get to make an exception to use the ISA image. The point is that we do not, and will not, host the font. -- Ned Scott 07:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Any redistributors on DVD will have to host the font. --NE2 07:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No it wouldn't. That's like saying we would be required to include Japanese character fonts so people can properly see anime articles that use Japanese characters. We don't have to include an OS, computer, keyboard, and power supply with the DVD either. -- Ned Scott 07:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, they should, but they can skimp on that because all modern operating systems have support for those. I don't think this is the crux of the issue though; we shouldn't be forcing someone to download something unfree - or ideally download anything other than the web browser they already have - to see our free encyclopedia properly. --NE2 07:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is free for the user, but not for us simply because of our unique policies. -- Ned Scott 20:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't represent Japanese characters as images because it would be extremely inconvenient for those writing the articles. And the latest operating systems all come with Japanese character support anyway, so it won't be an issue at all in a few years. With the ISA, font support is very limited and it would be much more convenient to represent it as an image. The ISA's copyright terms are the same either way, so it makes no difference to our end goal of free content. We are not above using the ISA; we should not be above hosting it. The Wikimedia servers aren't going to explode if we use them to host the ISA instead of directing users to another web site to download a font. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 21:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Um, if the font includes the Unicode point, then it is not our problem. The copyright owner of the International Symbol of Access (can such an uncreative creation actually be copyrighted?) may feel free to sue for copyright infringement from the copyright owner of the Deja Vu font package, but we do not need to concern ourselves with that. --Iamunknown 01:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it a leap of faith to assume that the font isn't using a free symbol? I see it having no relevance, and any comparison to using OGGs over MP3 is fairly moot because you're talking patent rather than copyright law. -Halo 02:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Tangent, what is the specific font that goes with this symbol? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

DejaVu fonts; and not "with this symbol", it's just one of the few, if not the first to have implemented this unicode character (recently assigned). I'm personally not 100% against, if there is some evidence that implementation of this symbol will be in wider use in the future. (I have no idea how often these unicode additions take place, and how well the fontbuilders actually are at making these changes). I do find the DejaVu implementation butt-ugly btw. I would have expected better quality of DejaVu. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 02:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

From watching other additions to Unicode, it's probably going to be at least five years before we can count on the average computer having a font with this code point -- and that's assuming that Windows Vista ships with a font containing it. --Carnildo 03:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Windows Vista does not currently come with any fonts that include support for the ISA. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 04:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the wheelchair symbol was added to Unicode starting with version 4.1, dated March 2005. [1] —Remember the dot ^(talk) 04:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

One wonders if the makers or users of those fonts will get themselves sued at some point. ^^;; --Kim Bruning 08:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's very, very doubtful. --Cyde Weys 16:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Putting the free/non-free debate aside for a moment, the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion. Now that Template:Access icon has been changed to require the font (although some pages I see that transclude that template still display Image:Wheelchair.svg) and Help:Displaying the international wheelchair symbol has appeared, I had to say something. Unlike the need to download a font for language character support, or a plug-in for popular rich media applications (Flash, Java, QuickTime, etc.), this kind of download should not be required by users in order to experience Wikipedia. If Wikipedia (Wiki software) installs this functionality, then this may be a different story.

I could download a font and install it, but what about users in a public library, educational institution or workplace who have to ask the administrator to install the font and possibly go through bureaucracy to do so? I will not, and do not intend to download a font just to be able to display one symbol within the font. And ironically, although I know very little about Web accessibility, this action has got to make it harder for Wikipedia to be accessible to all users. Tinlinkin 05:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

While it is shooting ourselves in the foot, it's less so than the other alternatives that the more zealous policy editors were willing to consider. --tjstrf talk 05:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion.

"Unexpected"? I think you mean "absurd". — Omegatron 00:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to give a diplomatic statement because I wasn't so vehement that I would not download the font ever–unless it gains wide acceptance (which I don't think will happen here). But especially after reading Miss Mondegreen's response below, the additional font requirement may as well be absurd. Tinlinkin 04:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This entire discussion, that's been going on for months and I've followed it at every single page is absurd. There are times when the inanity here disgusts me. We won't let people use the image where we have permission to, just because what? We have permission to use the image, and it's not permission limited to Wikipedia, it's only permission limited to using the image properly. Why are we asking for them to release it under GFDL or public domain when we have all of the permission that we need? They have a copyright keeping the image about ACCESS, to keep people from using it for unrelated things--i.e. they can protect the image as a symbol, and we have permission to use it:

"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users." [2]

That lets us use the image to identify wheelchair accessible places, and that even lets us use it in appropriate userboxes (this user is disabled/in a wheelchair). As long as it's not used a userbox that says "this user hates being forced to eat their spinach", then we aren't in any trouble. So heaven forbid we actually have to be encyclopedic and not use the image where it's inappropriate to. It's completely unencylopedic to use a font that no one can see as a way to express something, or to use an image that isn't internationally recognized just because we're on a free as apple pie kick. Also, for users who are disabled but not in a wheelchair, an alternate image doesn't work--it's an image of a wheelchair, whereas this image in particular means disabled in general.

On another note:

It is completely inappropriate to demand that companies release copyright on images when they have given the public wide leeway in the usage of these images. The idea that GFDL is the way of the future and that we are going to force that on people is not only absurd, but an irresponsible position for Wikipedia as a company to take. For starters, GFDL doesn't apply to images (though not something I want to get into here), but what really gets my gullet, what I really don't understand, is how we have the gall to tell everyone else that what they are doing and have been doing for a very long time, just isn't good enough. Why on earth are we writing to international organizations asking for permission they've already granted, or for them to license something a particular way so that we can use it--when they've already given us permission to use it? The world doesn't revolve around Wikipedia--in fact, precisely the opposite, we are supposed to revolve around the world, record the world, and yet because we run around in burocratic circles, we attempt to get other people to change for us.

All we're just supposed to record what is and do it accurately, and in this instance, we've only ever been hindered by ourselves. We've had permission all along, and haven't utilized it, making excuse after excuse after excuse, coming up with other ways to record things, but we're not supposed to be creating our own images of access and using fonts no one can see is pointless. There's an international symbol for a reason and we are actively avoiding using it--how encyclopedic is that? All of the articles that we're talking about having this images are ones that utilize it themselves, and yet, because we don't want to use the image we're changing the record. First we used that drawing to demonstrate access--which isn't OR--it's just wrong. And now we're using a font that can't be seen. And using text is shaky--different places have different levels of accessibilty, and laws about what needs to be done in order to be considered accesible. Text carries a level of specificity, and we have to find that information and verify it. If we can't find text information about the extent of access, then there's no text that can be provided that's verifiable. All that's verifiable is the usage of the symbol at a place, and not what they are using it to mean.

In the interest of full discretion, you can let loose the dogs of war on my userpage. Miss Mondegreen talk  09:35, May 21 2007

that even lets us use it in appropriate userboxes (this user is disabled/in a wheelchair). - I don't get that from the section you've quoted. A userbox does not identify, mark or show the way to any buildings or facilities. Also, for users who are disabled but not in a wheelchair, an alternate image doesn't work--it's an image of a wheelchair, whereas this image in particular means disabled in general It most certainly does not mean 'disabled in general'. It specifically limits itself to restricted mobility. Dan Beale 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

You can have restricted mobility without being in a wheelchair. This is the image used for diabled parking placards, and being a wheelchair is one of many reasons for a parking placard. And, this is the last thing I'll say about myself personally, but the placard I scanned is my own and I'm not in wheelchair. Other then the obvious, it is possible to get a placard for various mental disorders--if they affect mobility.

"and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users"

How would that not let someone who was mobility disabled use the image in a userbox?

What I meant by disabled in general, is that this icon has a specific but wide ranging meaning, whereas a stick drawing of a wheelchair is, just that, a stick drawing of a wheelchair. It's impossible to come up with images to adequately represent various other types of mobility related disablities, and because of the iconic nature of this image, this image of a wheelchair means something different than other images. That's one of the reasons for creating an international symbol, and an international symbol can't be substituted by something that looks similar, as something that looks similar carries none of the weight and meaning of the symbol, but of whatever it is an image of. Such is the case here with the ISA and our stick wheelchair drawing. Miss Mondegreen talk  12:33, May 21 2007

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes. The symbol only denotes access for people with limited mobility. You said the image means "disabled in general". So, I was just providing a minor clarification. Also, the text you quoted says

"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users."

- this, I think, clearly rules out user boxes which are not identifying, marking or showing the way to buildings or facilities that are accessible and usable by people whose mobility is restricted. Dan Beale 18:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The world doesn't revolve around Wikipedia--in fact, precisely the opposite, we are supposed to revolve around the world, record the world, and yet because we run around in burocratic circles, we attempt to get other people to change for us. - I don't get this, are you suggesting that we should not contact copyright holders in an attempt to get them to freely license their content? Their image is not free as in freedom, simple as that. Why not contact them? --Iamunknown 04:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm suggesting that, when they have already given permission that is more than adequate, contacting them asking them to freely license their content is hubris itself. I'm suggesting that what we are doing by saying "conform to us or..." is arrogant and stupid, and the effect it has on this encylopedia is to make it a bad encyclopedia. We, along with anyone else have permission to use the symbol to "indentify, mark or show the way to buildings or facilities that are accessable to and usable by..." Well--that's what we want to do, is it not? Identify places that are accessable to the mobility restricted? And there are other things about the image itself--using it facing to the right and keeping it on the blue background unless a change is necessitated for some reason, but we aren't looking to change the image. We're looking to represent information that's already respresented elsewhere. And this doesn't restrict our doing that in any way. This even lets our users use the image for userboxes in order to inform people that their mobility is restricted, ("...and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users.").

And yet, this isn't good enough for us. Why? We don't need to or want to use the image in any other way. And the ISA changing the licensing of the image does have consequences--it keeps them from persuing people who use the image for something completely unrelated to mobility restriction.

The only real reason that we would require an image to be FREE, would be so that we could abuse it. We either believe in the wiki system and that we can keep images from being used improperly, or we don't. And if we don't believe in the wiki system, and are specifically creating rules because the wiki system can't work, then whats the point? Miss Mondegreen talk  06:33, May 22 2007 (UTC)

Well--that's what we want to do, is it not? Identify places that are accessable to the mobility restricted? - Is it? Why? Isn't that something for some other wiki to do? I'm not sure why public places conforming to various accessibility laws is notable or encyclopeadic. Perhaps if they were _breaking_ the law it'd be notable. Dan Beale 18:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I am of the opinion that we should not only produce and distribute free content but also promote it. I don't see it as "arrogance" as you do, but as simply what we do. I guess that our opinions differ. --Iamunknown 18:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Changing the subject slightly, I think it's better to represent the ISA as a Unicode character rather than using the replacement image. Here is a side-by-side comparison:

♿

I know that most users won't already have a compatible font installed. Hopefully this will change in the future. At least with the font option, we are trying to change the world by encouraging font downloads rather than trying to change the world by using a nonstandard symbol instead of a standard one.

Obviously, neither solution is ideal. Either way we're effectively telling the ICTA that their copyright terms aren't good enough (though the nonstandard icon rubs that in their face). The ideal solution would be to just send the ISA as an image. However, I've taken another look at Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy and it seems to me that we're simply not allowed to send the ISA as an image outside of the article about the ISA. The Foundation's policy should be changed, but I doubt they will do so.

So, what do you all think? Which is better, the nonstandard symbol or the standard symbol that requires a font download? —Remember the dot ^(talk) 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious about your interpretation -- are you saying that the editors and admins of en.wikipedia.org can not modify the project's EDP to include this standardized international symbol? I ask because I have seen this interpretation pretty vigorously put forth by other editors... and also, because I would guess the whole point of having a policy dealing with exemptions is to, you know, deal with exemptions to the policy. Which would seem to indicate one could, in fact, make certain standardized, international symbols exempt from the usual restrictions of WP:NFCC. Jenolen ^{speak it!} 17:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I thought that too until I read "regardless of their licensing status". I interpret that to mean that we have to treat all unfree images the as if they were All Rights Reserved images. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 17:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok then, so what about euro images? They've created a special tag for them, dealing with the fact that we have permission except..., and those files are linked to in multiple places. Why the double standard? We either need to change the tagging on those images, like the euro to fall into what we say we do, i.e. put them up under fair use and take them away from everything except the necessary main article, or we rewrite the main page to adjust to what we really do, and create an appropriate tag for these such images, so that each image doesn't need to create it's own tag the way euro has done, and then that's that really. But this halfway-we'll do it in someplaces but not others and refuse to awknowledge that we're doing it mumbo jumbo is ridiculous.

Unless someone else better equipped to do so is willing to handle this mess, I'll write the necessary section about international symbols, and I'll put it in and leave a not on the talk page explaining that I'm only adjusting the page to our current practices. If people have a problem with that and consensus overrules me, then I'll go and change the tags on the euro files and the other international image files and I'll let them know that consensus told them to take a hike. But I'm no longer go to sit around and watch people be hypocrites. This isn't an issue about the ISA--it's an issue about international symbols where we have clear cut permission and we're saying one thing, and sometimes we follow that and sometimes we don't and everyone knows that. I'm going to leave a message for Jimbo now in case he wants to comment, but if he doesn't we still have the problem of saying one thing and doing something else half of the time. Miss Mondegreen talk  18:48, May 22 2007 (UTC)

Which tag and which images would you be referring to? --Iamunknown 18:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd be referring to Category: Euro images, which contains over 200 images of euros all using the euro copyright tag (it's clever, there's a euro where there should be a copyright symbol). Miss Mondegreen talk  19:36, May 22 2007 (UTC)

Okay, a simple answer: those images are non-free and should be treated as non-free like every other non-free image on Wikipedia. I'm already working on them. --Iamunknown 19:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The nonstandard symbol is far better than displaying a question mark for the majority of readers. --NE2 18:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps. Or perhaps companies and people will adjust. The non-standard image is very problematic--it says "wheelchair". The international symbol says restricted mobility--not because the picture is different, but because it's a symbol created to mean that and has been around a long time and therefore means that. our picture of a wheelchair is just a picture of a wheelchair--it's not a smybol by any means. Miss Mondegreen talk  19:36, May 22 2007 (UTC)

• Maybe I am just slow, but if you choose to use this why not use the image you using on this page. If a user has to go down load a font to use it how are you going to tell them to download it and how accessible is the process and how is a screen reader like JAWS going to know what the weird font is. Rename the image from "wheelchair" to "accessibility wheelchair icon" Jeepday (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The title attribute, which screen readers should pick up, now reads "Disability accessible. Click here if you are seeing a question mark or empty rectangle." The reason we don't want to use is because it is just a drawing of a wheelchair and not a widely recognized symbol. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Asking people to download a font to display this symbol is ridiculous and serves no practical purpose. The distinction between hosting the symbol ourselves and displaying a symbol stored on the user's computer is utterly meaningless because there is no legal issue that prevents us from doing the former. We're merely skirting our own policy (via a silly technicality, no less). From a philosophical perspective, it makes no difference how the symbol reaches the user; either way, we're displaying non-free content. The idea that it isn't okay for us to supply it directly, but it is okay to do so by having people download it from someone else is mind-bogglingly absurd.
Given the fact that absolutely no legal issues are in play, all that matters is whether it's philosophically appropriate for us to use this symbol for its intended purpose. A strict interpretation of the Foundation principles indicates that it technically isn't, but there appears to be wide agreement that such a prohibition is not the intent of said policy (given the fact that the image's restrictions exist solely to prevent abuse and in no way limit its use by us or anyone else for its internationally recognized purpose). That's why a formal exception should be established at the Foundation level.
The apparent belief of some that we must follow policy to the letter but are welcome to ignore the spirit (by displaying non-free content in a manner that technically complies with the letter) is quite disheartening. —David Levy 18:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like NE2 just reverted the {{access icon}} template back to his original Image:Wheelchair.svg. I thought this issue was pretty much resolved, but I guess not. I honestly don't see the difference between using a unicode character on the site vs. uploading a 20px version of the image. Either way, you're still hosting the copyrighted logo. –Dream out loud 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, with the font solution it's the people distributing the font that are hosting the non-free content, not us. I would like to use the regular image, but that doesn't seem to be allowed. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 20:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Then I would think we are just as liable as the font distributors regarding the non-free content. We are consciously promoting the content via the font, but the font is not in our hands–it's in theirs. Isn't this like a Napster situation? Tinlinkin 20:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, because there are no legal issues with using the ISA, whether as an image or as a Unicode character. It is dumb to have a policy that we have to work around like this, but it's something the Foundation made and so we can't just change it directly. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 21:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with NE2. While a nonstandard symbol is far from ideal, it's preferable to code that's broken for most users. —David Levy 19:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comments at Template talk:Access icon. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Use of <noinclude>{{pp-move|small=yes}}</noinclude> on move protected pages?

Is this a recent development? Because it seems like seeing this in the corner of a page might suggest to new users and anons that a page is sprotected, when in fact it's just move protected. It seems like this might discourage new users from editing certain pages, would it be possible to remove this from pages such as the Help Desk which is frequented by new users and anons? --VectorPotential^Talk 12:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at the helpdesk page and I see what you mean. I think a lock in the top right corner of such a page is a bad idea. We should either have another picture for move protection, or remove it from this page specifically or something. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The icon seems to do more harm than good, and most people probably don't worry about moving a page when they visit it. You can tell whether it's move protected by the absence of the move tab. –Pomte 19:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

We could just use a new image. The only thing I can think of is an arrow with a line through it, like this (though less ugly): File:No arrow.svg -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm worried that an image with a crossout or red on it will scare new users, and since new users can't move pages anyway, I don't see the benefits of that icon over the risk of alienating users. — The Storm Surfer 04:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I think no icon is probably the way to go. — The Storm Surfer 08:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, move protection doesn't need an icon. >Radiant< 13:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Resizing Images

This is regarding Category:Non-free image size reduction request (i cant figure out how to internal link a category page, could someone drop the answer at my talk page) I need to know if there is a specific size that the images should be smaller than, or can i just resize according to my ideas... CyberoidX 13:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Answers Anybody?

There is no specific limit, the quality of the image should be consistent to its purpose in the article. Usually Common sense is sufficient. Alex Bakharev 13:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Common sense is almost always a good idea, especially when no set rules apply, as I believe is the case here. I mean, if something is huge and oppressive, it is obviously going to distract from the article as a whole in certain areas. Jmlk17 07:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyleft violation

I ran across an interesting situation. This image was nominated for deletion as a copyright violation because it appeared with a copyright notice at another web site. But it was uploaded to WP two weeks earlier, apparently by the same person, and licensed under GNU copyleft. The GNU license requires the content to remain free forever, so the copyright notice actually violates copyleft.

If I read the GNU license correctly, it would take precedence whether it was invoked before or after copyright. If before, it must remain free forever, if after, then the copyright is relinquished. I wonder if people patrolling for copyright violations are checking for this? Dhaluza 01:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The creator of a work can release it under a variety of licenses. They aren't bound by the GFDL or any other license. Everyone who downloads it from wikipedia is. jbolden1517^Talk 02:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't "invoke" copyright. You have it, absolutely, from the moment the work is created, whether you choose to assert it or not. Licensing something under the GFDL is in and of itself an assertion of copyright - you state you own the copyright, but you are willing to let other people make copies if conditions X, Y and Z are fulfilled, and you promise not to revoke the agreement. At no point under the GFDL do you cease to hold the copyright to the image.

Licensing an image under the GFDL means that if anyone else redistributes the image, they have to do so under the GFDL. However, you can distribute it under any license you so choose (with the minor caveat that the license can't be exclusive, for obvious reasons) - under no license at all, under a restrictive license, under a license that allows it only to be copied by women called Henrietta, whatever. You just can't stop anyone saying "but, wait, this is licensed under the GFDL" and reusing it under those conditions.

The image you saw on airliners.net is in and of itself a licensed image - it is licensed to airliners.net for online display under specific conditions, and you agree to this when you upload it. This license means that they can display it online with a notice stating you own the copyright; it also means they don't need to know or care about any other licenses you might have released it under, which is the normal way licensing works.

It can't "violate copyleft" because the GFDL is irrelevant as far as airliners.net is concerned; they have a license they are happy with, and they are complying with it. Releasing something under the GFDL does not force reusers to comply with the GFDL if they can get a better deal from you directly; it just means that if they can't get a better deal from you, they can comply with the conditions of the GFDL and use the work that way.

Bottom line - a) the author always reserves the right to issue a license to use their image; b) this image appears to be legitimately released as GFDL, if we are indeed happy they're the same person (and I see no reason to doubt it); c) no-one is in breach of any copyright or any license. Shimgray | talk | 02:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder how long it will be before someone sees the copyright-marked image at airliners.net and without checking further or noticing the GNU Free Documentation License, tags it for speedy deletion as a copy-vio ... and successfully gets it deleted? :(
Askari Mark (Talk) 03:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Leave a note on the image page. Problem prevented. Shimgray | talk | 15:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be an idea to suggest to anyone uploading their own GDFL images to note then or later any further distribution of the image under any other license, to avoid just the above situation. Just a "please, if possible" request, nothing heavy. LessHeard vanU 12:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack question

A week ago, I removed a one-sentence ad from an article on a small town, New Hampshire, Ohio, and left a no-ads template message on the talk page of the IP that added the ad. This morning, I got a personal attack from the IP on my talk page and on the New Hampshire talk page. My question is this: what level of warning template should be left for the IP? Should it get a first-level, since this is its first personal attack? Or a second-level, since it's already had another warning recently, by me? Or a third-level, since the message was given twice in slightly different versions, both of which are very obviously bad faith ("Get an effing life...")? Regardless of which is correct, I'm not entirely sure what the WP:UTM guidelines want me to do. And by the way, I'd appreciate it if someone else left a warning for the IP. Nyttend 15:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Not second-level; that would only apply if there had been a previous warning for personal attacks. I guess this particular issue has already been dealt with, but I would have said third-level, since the attacks are in flagrantly bad faith and do not deserve our usual level of patience. -- Visviva 15:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

A good, firm warning is necessary, but it doesn't really need to be extreme. Jmlk17 07:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Userboxes

I tried to stay as far away as possible from userboxes as I can, but what is the current consensus/policy on userboxes like {{User:EVula/Userboxes/User against Bush}}? Leave those in template-space, move to user-space, speedy-delete? —Ruud 19:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I would file that under "userfy and ignore" myself. -- Visviva 23:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Definitely move to user space. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 06:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd definitely userfy. In that case, and in some others, I'd then nominate at MfD. It doesn't look to meet the criteria for T1, but it does run afoul of WP:UP#NOT. An alternative approach would be to nominate at TfD/MfD first, and only usefy if kept. (This is fewer edits in the event of a deletion.) GRBerry 19:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Userfy. Feel free to move it into my space, if you want. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• Now at User:EVula/Userboxes/User against Bush. --Iamunknown 18:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why it would be speedy-deleted. It's free speech and someone's personal belief. :) Jmlk17 07:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Māori names

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board#Māori names about inclusion of Māori language names in infoboxes of New Zealand cities. Further input is welcome.-gadfium 20:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been broadened to include any "foreign" language names (italicisation, etc) - although obviously in a New Zealand context the vast majority will Māori (rather than Dutch, French or German, etc) and is rapidly approaching a consensus. 89.242.173.97 11:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Bot Exclusion Proposal on User talk pages

After looking through some of my bot's edits and some of the edits of Staeckerbot and OrphanBot, I occasionally see a user frequently removing bot notifications for duplicate images, copyright issues on images, etc. For those that don't want notifications comming from a certain bot, or even all bots I think it would be nice if there was a standard exclusion code created to prevent unwanted notifications. For example to disallow bot FooBar from issuing notifications on their talk page they could post:

<!--Disallow:Foobar-->

at the top of their talk page. To disallow all bots they could post something like:

<!--Diallow:ALL-->

I'm not suggesting this be an absolute rule though. Vandal bots or bots warning someone to stop some form of abuse wouldn't have to abide by this. It would only serve as a strong indicator that this user doesn't want any non-critical information, such as image deletion notifications, image copyright issues, duplicate image notifications, etc.., posted on their talk page. How does this idea sound? --Android Mouse 23:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• You'll have to discuss this with the people who operate bots. A bot could quite easily be programmed to heed such tags, and some bots already do (e.g. the archival bots must know which pages to archive). >Radiant< 13:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I wanted to hear if there was any interest from the community first, before taking any further action. --Android Mouse 14:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because they remove them doesn't mean they don't want the not in the first place. Once you've got the message, there's no reason for users to keep these notes around so they remove them immediately. I think it would be a bad idea to not leave these notes for users at all, though, because they notify people of important happenings relevant to them.

I know that some people don't want them at all because their edit summaries explicity say so, etc "Remove more unwanted bot messages AGAIN". For these people, this exclusion code would be useful. --Android Mouse 15:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

OrphanBot at least, and probably others, already have an "opt out" mechanism upon request. If a standardized way for users to tell bots not to message them was agreed upon I'm sure most bot owners would be willing to implement it. Wikipedia:Bot owners' noticeboard would probably be a better place to get relevant input though. --Sherool (talk) 16:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I created a new topic on the bot owners noticeboard. In order to avoid two discussions please place all new comments on that page. --Android Mouse 17:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to create a New Policy WP:LockdownBeforeRFM

For some highly controversial articles that need Request-for-Meditation(RfM), recently it is suspected that certain users changed the article into a personal form, then immediately request WP:RFP to lock into the expected form before meditation and disputation resolution. The sysadmin who is (randomly) assigned to do the lockdown knows a little about the actual details, then almost surely performs the lockdown after seeing the editing war. This loophole does look like a vulnerable point of the wikipedia system. If not countermeasured, this could soon become a standard trick in editing wars. A countermeasure is not very complex, for example, a new wikipolicy WP:LockdownBeforeRFM could be defined to say that the disputed article must be locked before meditation and locked to an early stable version at least 3 days before the appearance of the disputation (even if this version could be the 1st one-liner version). This stable version can be easily identified by looking at the article's history page.

It seems that the countermeasure may effectively repair the loophole.--Jiejunkong 09:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with this. If protection is not meant to be an endorsement of the protected version, you might as well lock it at a point before the conflict took place. Otherwise, it may still be perceived by others as being biased.--Kylohk 14:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Page protection is a temporary measure. It is known, and accepted, that sometimes the Wrong Version will be protected. For a tongue in cheek view of the matter, check out w:Wrong version. Cheers! Vassyana 14:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

In this sort of situation, whatever version is locked down, one party will cry foul.--Runcorn 19:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Not speaking for the MedCom here, I feel that if a mediation cannot take place without the users involved being willing enough to disengage in order to help resolve the dispute, then mediation is doomed to failure. Mediation is based on good faith between those involved in the process, and if users are so unwilling to help to resolve the dispute by preventing themselves from editing the article, then in a lot of cases (not all) they will be unwilling to help resolve the dispute. Furthermore, full protection is horrible and pointless in a long term mediation situation, becuase it only serves to lock out uninvolved editors from making useful changes. Martinp23 18:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be another itteration of the old complaint that "The article got locked in the wrong version". Blueboar 19:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Definitely a Wrong Version situation. Move along, nothing here at all. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the version which is initially locked, it seems appropriate for the arbitrator or an appointee to re-lock the most recent stable version. --Kevin Murray 19:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

There have been some cases of late where controversial policy changes were made and then locked into the new version (e.g. the recent lock of WP:NPA). Mangoe 23:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply I am not asking for locking on the so-called "right" version (we know there is no such thing), but an earlier stable version before the potential attacker had the chance to interfere. Because traveling back in time is impossible, this effectively eliminates the attack I described at the beginning of this section.--Jiejunkong 01:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• There generally isn't such thing. If there's a "stable" version and an "attacker", it is generally a matter of vandalism that is reverted. If there is sufficient dispute to warrant mediation, suggesting a priori that one version is "better" will only cause more strife. >Radiant< 08:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Security is indeed a transformation of randomization (See Shannon's perfect secrecy and Ciphertext indistinguishability, basically encryption is nothing more than a decryptable operation with result indistinguishable from truly randomness). I have never said something like "right" or "better" (we know there is no such thing). It is only a countermeasure to a very specific loophole. Please check my original post carefully. --Jiejunkong 02:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Lists

I've noticed several lists of sports awards are presented in chronological order (NFL MVP, NFLDPOY) and several are presented in reverse chronological order (NBA Finals MVP, NBA MVP). It seems disorganized to have them in one order in one list and in another order elsewhere. Comments? Tayquan ^holla_{My work} 20:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I cannot comment specifically about awards lists in Wikipedia, but in the motorsport Wikiprojects, the general convention is to display lists of title winners in reverse order (per the accepted convention outside Wikipedia). By the same token, detailed results tables for teams and drivers are ordered chronologically. So I would expect to see a list of award winners in reverse order, provided that external convention either supports it or does not obviously favour the opposite method. I would raise this at the relevant Wikiproject if I were you, just to see of there already is a favoured method. Adrian M. H. 22:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Chronological ordering states that you should use earliest-to-latest chronological order. 84.66.65.170 23:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Then that guideline needs to be amended to accomodate external conventions. Adrian M. H. 17:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Reviewing decisions on WP:RM

I know that there is deletion review to review deletion decisions. What is the procedure to review closures on requested moves? Right now, the only way to deal with contested closures to to renominate and that in itself is a contentious process that is not the best forum to resolve any issues. Vegaswikian 22:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Look, this sort of policy probably isn't even necessary. What do you do when you disagree with someone? Go to their talk page, or talk about the move on the article page. Dealing with contested closures? I'm always surprised how difficult things can get, when simply talking about the matter before hand would've made it a non-issue. Jussen 00:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

If only it was so simple for some renames. Talk pages are fine, but when minority opinions are allowed to prevail some kind of review needs to be available. Otherwise it will be request after request with the same problems. Vegaswikian 03:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is a problem--not just of moves but also of merges; these can greatly affect a topic, almost to the same extent that deletion does. But just as ArbCon won't discuss article content, neither will AfD and DelRev discuss edit questions. I wish there were a procedure, but I wouldn't suggest trying to make one now--I think the community feeling is against increasing bureaucratic layers, if only because it is very difficult to keep up with the XfDs and the like which we currently do have. DGG 06:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Try escalating to RFC. >Radiant< 10:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Captions for all logos on wikipedia

There is now a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Logos#Captions for all Logos about a proposed policy that all (trademarked) logos on wikipedia have a caption. nadav (talk) 07:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that all trademarked logos on wikipedia are there under WP:FU, and that captions of logos are already available via alt tags. Any trademarked logo that violates fair-use should be immediatley removed, however any logos that comply with fair-use should be added and retained in infoboxes without the need for captioning. This proposition is redundant, and serves no practical purpose that is not already in use. Stickeylabel 07:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I've replied at the discussion page. WP:FU is not relevant for trademark issues. nadav (talk) 07:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Synthesis (WP:BRAIN )

The WP:NOR discussion page has significant discussion on the WP:SYN section of the synthesis policy. WP:SYN currently prohibits "synthesis that advances a position" but there is no coherent Wikipedia:Synthesis policy that defines "synthesis" or shows what is appropriate and inappropriate forms of synthesis. I have started an essay that highlights this dilemma, (WP:BRAIN but I don't know where to draw the line on "good vs bad" synthesis. Please help me edit this essay to assist formation of a coherent synthesis policy. Peace, MPS 03:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Your essay is quite good for discussing when "using your brain" and discussing synthesis is allowed (on talk pages, for example)... but it could use some ballancing statements to clarify when it is not allowed (in articles). Blueboar 13:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

External links to Geocaches. Appropriate per WP:EL?

An external link to a page describing a specific geocache site (see geocaching) has been added to Elsbridge. My gut feeling is that the link is not appropriate, and should be deleted, especially since the article is about a fictional location! However, I have had a look at WP:EL and I'm still uncertain.

The main reason for seeking advice here is that the External Link search tool currently brings up just over 100 links to www.geocaching.com, the most popular site, and I was wondering whether there was any kind of precedent/guidance/policy/advice for including or removing links to specific geocache locations?

The list includes a large number of user pages, and a number of links that are probably appropriate examples, neither of which are a problem. However, a significant number of instances occur on specific location pages, pointing at specific cache details, and it is these in particular that I am questioning. Should a WP location article feature a link to a geocache sited at that location?

(This query was previously posted, without attracting a response, on the VP(assistance) page.)

EdJogg 13:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I have not heard of this before. It is obviously of great interest to a minority of people, but that hardly justifies the link. If it does not directly relate to the subject matter in a useful way, get rid of it.Just my opinion. Adrian M. H. 18:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Quotations - editing and amending

Is there any guidance or policy on Quotations? I ask as I keep coming across instances where the original quote (as stated in the source) has been edited or amended to either change it to a different style of English, edited for grammar or cropped to reflect a POV. Is a quote still a quote when it's been altered? 82.11.41.163 13:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No... if a quote has been modified it is no longer a quote. The only modification that should be allowed is to omit extranious words that do not change the meaning of what we are quoting. For example, take the following sentence:

• "Yesterday, after waking up and doing my usual morning routine of brushing my teeth, showering, and having breakfast, I walked to work instead of driving in my car as I had always done before."<ref>citation</ref>

We can legitimately quote this as:

• "Yesterday, ... I walked to work instead of driving in my car as I had always done before."<ref>citation</ref>

That said, it is not wrong to paraphrase a source (so long as we include a citation so it can be compared to the original), but then quotation marks should not be used. To use my example, you could say:

• According to Blueboar, yesterday was the first time he walked to work. He states that prior to that he had always driven in his car.<ref>citation</ref>

What is definitely NOT ok is to ammend a statement so it does not accurately reflect the meaning and intent of the original. Blueboar 13:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Man, thank goodness someone else realizes that lol. Jmlk17 07:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Rolling back BLP abuse

The current situation with WP:BLP has gotten way out of control. The policy was initially intended to prevent a recurrence of something like the Seigenthaler controversy, by ensuring that biography articles were carefully watched and that unsourced gossip and rumor was not included. However, a few administrators have recently begun to interpret it to exclude anything, even if it was published in a reliable source, that might reflect badly on someone. Entire articles have been deleted and salted because they are somehow considered to be "inherent BLP violations," even though by the original understanding of BLP there is no such thing. This trend clearly violates a core Wikipedia policy, Neutral Point of View, as well as the basic principle that Wikipedia is not censored. Consequently, I think it's time that the unnecessary cruft be removed from the BLP policy, so that it can no longer be used as an excuse for high-handed, out-of-consensus administrative actions.

I propose the following wording, to constitute BLP in its entirety:

When biographical material on living people is involved, it is extremely important that all core Wikipedia content policies be followed carefully. This includes, but is not limited to, the following standards: Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, and Reliable sources.

Any unsourced or poorly sourced biographical material on living people may be removed without discussion. Such edits do not count towards the Three-revert rule. If a biographical article consists of nothing but material that violates Wikipedia standards, and there is no good version to revert to, then it should be deleted. At the discretion of other editors, a new, compliant version may later be created at the same title in accordance with Wikipedia policy.

Things have gotten way out of control on this issue. We can't rely upon Arbcom to make policy; they clearly don't want to, and it isn't their job. This needs to be worked out within the community. And the feedback I have seen over the past week within the community makes it clear that a majority of editors do not like the expansive, overreaching manner in which BLP has been applied. *** Crotalus *** 22:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Entirely sensible, but you may need to add a little, er, "cruft" to flesh out some parts. But I think you've got the right idea - it nails the letter and the spirit of the policy while making it easy to understand and difficult to abuse. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes any version will violate the spirit of BLP.--Doc^g 23:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. Those versions are unsourced or poorly sourced, and thus don't meet our core content policies. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not all about sources.--Doc^g 23:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Can you offer some examples where the BLP policy has been applied improperly? --Kevin Murray 23:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Recent deletions of articles, like the whole QZ shitstorm and Crystal Gail Mangum have taken place even though the articles were perfectly sourced and contained nothing negative that wasn't attributed, because some people felt that BLP meant we shouldn't be a platform for saying embarrassing things about people that they didn't think deserved to have those things said about them. Up on DRV right now is a case where people are claiming that BLP prohibits us from having an article about kids who were switched at birth and the subject of a TV program because of that, because our article might come back to haunt them. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Hard to see a problem with QZ since there were many experienced and respected editors indicating delete over three AfDs, and not citing BLP. But the CGM deletion seems unwarranted. I worked on the Bruce McMahan article for a while trying to keep the content out of the gutter, while not caving in to special interests trying to whitewash the article. In the end both sides became so disreputable that it wasn't worth the hassle. The Mangum article may have been more trouble to babysit than the information was worth.--Kevin Murray 01:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
      • It could have just been reverted or stubbed, but it was speedied out of process instead. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with this analysis. WP:BLP is a crucial policy in the effort to maintain encyclopaedic standards for Wikipedia. If anything it needs to be enforced more rigorously. FNMF 01:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, but within reason and without becoming censorship. --Kevin Murray 01:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of proper place for this discussion

Please discuss at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons. If you have any specific cases of overreaching, please post a notice in the BLP noticeboard. And if you have specific concerns about admin actions, please post a notice in the Admin noticeboard ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Information is in History. I have said my peace. This is a refactor. I would normally scratch it out, but the issue is no longer pertaining directly to the article at hand.SanchiTachi 01:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Jossi hasn't wheel warred. That requires using admin tools. You're just trying to demonize an editor who disagrees with you. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Information is in History. I have said my peace. This is a refactor. I would normally scratch it out, but the issue is no longer pertaining directly to the article at hand. SanchiTachi 02:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Uh, uh. You don't get to play this off your hypocritical policy citing. "A wheel war is a struggle between two or more admins in which they undo another's administrative actions — specifically, unblocking and reblocking a user; undeleting and redeleting; or unprotecting and reprotecting an article." Show us where Jossi does this. Reverting an edit is not an administrative action. Don't make any excuses. Show where Jossi has done this. — Someguy0830 (T | C)

That means providing diffs, by the way, not just saying "Jossi did it". — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Information is in History. I have said my peace. This is a refactor. I would normally scratch it out, but the issue is no longer pertaining directly to the article at hand. SanchiTachi 02:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You've cited nothing. You're claiming a difference of opinion to be wheel warring, and it's complete nonsense. Jossi hasn't reverted a single edit of Swatjester's. Jossi has barely even edited the page. Nor has Jossi undone a block, protection, or any other administrative action of Swat's. Jossi's endorsing of the removal of a link in opposition to Swatjester is not wheel warring, it's called discussion. I realize this concept may be lost on you, but people do have differences of opinion, and your claims that such a difference constitues wheel-warring is completely false, as well as fairly ignorant. Until you can bring forth evidence, not your opinion, as to why Jossi is wheel-warring, I suggest you drop it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Information is in History. I have said my peace. This is a refactor. I would normally scratch it out, but the issue is no longer pertaining directly to the article at hand.SanchiTachi 02:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, and this is why you have no argument. You cannot back up your argument with diffs, you can't correctly quote the policy, and you devolve into ridiculous hypocrisy when you're out of material. Quoting a policy and giving no link to where it was broken isn't a cite, it's wikilawyering. I'll say this once more. Prove it. Where, when, and in what fashion does Jossi wheel war? Provide a diff, provide a link, hell, link to a section, but accomplish something instead of trying to assassinate the character of everyone who disagrees with you. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

SanchiTachi: I think that you'd be better-off taking a break. You are in embarrassing yourself. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Information is in History. I have said my peace. This is a refactor. I would normally scratch it out, but the issue is no longer pertaining directly to the article at hand. SanchiTachi 03:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If you have proof, why is it such a chore for you to provide? Surely such damning evidence would be easy to copy and paste. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This issue is between myself and Jossi's allusions and threats to block me on multiple occassions dealing with BLP. If you would like to add yourself into the conversation, please provide evidence to why you are important in deciding anything on this matter. If you feel that you can add yourself to mediating between Jossi and myself, please provide evidence that you are capable and qualified ot doing so. If you feel that you are an interested party because you have encouraged Jossi into posting such things on their Talk Page about me, please state so. Otherwise, this is an issue between Jossi and myself, and my only demand is that Jossi recuse theirself from this discussion based on possible NPOV conflicts. If you do not want to do any of what I have stated, please state that. SanchiTachi 03:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That didn't sound like an answer. That sounded like dodging the question. You can't expect to come on a public page and get a private conversation. I ask again, where's your evidence? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Someguy0830, I have no response or reply for you on this issue unless you fall under one of the mediation catagories above. If Jossi would want to ask the question of me, I will respond. If you want to read this as WP:EQ "Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste." Do so. If you want to contribute in a way that I proposed above, please respond as requested. Thank you. SanchiTachi 04:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

No, because I'm not going to play your game. I do not have to be a mediator, as this is not a mediation case. This is you accusing an admin of wrongdoing with no proof (on a policy page no less). I want proof. I ask a third time, where is your proof? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

British/American English

I've observed that the Baltimore Oriole article is definitely not written in US English, and, unless I'm rather mistaken, rather different from Canadian as well. The Manual of Style says that there will rarely be a compelling reason to change the spelling (or in this case, the vocabulary and usage) of the entire article. Is the North American nature of this bird sufficient to change its spelling, or should it remain as is? Nyttend 02:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

For topics specific to a region where one type of english is favored (like an article on Baltimore) we should stick to that flavor. The reluctance in switching applies when a topic isn't regionally specific. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the biggest problem with that isn't the dialect but the utterly inappropriate tone. Needs a rewrite for NPOV style and less puffery. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This will probably end up being a topic of debate for the history of Wikipedia. Colour vs. color, center vs. centre, etc. Jmlk17 07:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what type of English you use in the article, but the type must be consistent throughout.--Kylohk 18:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. The definition of proper English differs between our two forms of the language, but they are the same in more than enough ways to get a good point across. Jmlk17 02:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

One-sided accounts of events as biographical articles

Please read the discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 23#Crystal Gail Mangum. I've put forward a view of the application of the neutrality and no original research policies to biographies of living persons, and a suggestion that we can work on. There's discussion there and at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#The new section people are putting in, too. Please contribute to the discussions. Uncle G 13:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

There are a lot less neutrality tags being distributed these days than there should be. SanchiTachi 15:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear; sometimes even POV articles are hard to decipher though. Jmlk17 03:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is "poop" considered a swear word on Wikipedia?

My regular username, POOPTURTLE, was blocked due to being an "inappropriate" name. Why is this? I see nothing inappropriate about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AirPumpClock (talk • contribs)

The username policy includes "Usernames that include slurs, or references to reproductive or excretory bodily functions" as offensive usernames. That's why it was blocked...not because it's a "swear word" --OnoremDil 15:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, excretory. Understood. Thanks for answering in such a timely fashion.

AirPumpClock 15:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• "Poop" is a childish word. Little kids shouldn't be editing Wikipedia, nor should we be using that word in our articles. — Deckiller 16:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree. d;-) --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Although poop deck always seems more trouble than it's worth... Trebor 17:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It's my internet alias; I don't go around wikipedia going POOP POOP POOP POOP, it's just my 'net name. Nevertheless, the rules do say that you can't use an excretion word in your name, so whatever. P.S. POOP POOP POOP IM SUCH A LITTLE KID (lol internet) My point is, I found that comment unnecessary because I already got the point. AirPumpClock 16:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

As the book says, Everyone Poops. I think its a little overbearing to outlaw poop references from usernames. —Gaff ^ταλκ 17:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Overbearing? How? Badlydrawnjeff's point with that link was that there is at least one article where we can use the word poop, because it's part of the subject of the article. It doesn't mean you should be able to put it in your username. If the idea of not being able to use your obnoxious puerile nickname on an encyclopedia is too much for you to bear, you should probably find a different website. --tjstrf talk 17:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Says someone whose screenname includes a reference to a popular series of children's books... (intentionally not signing - not that you can't easily figure out who I am)

And a most excellent series it is, at that. --tjstrf talk 07:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I find no correlation between "poop" in a username and the fact that tjstrf enjoys the Redwall series. Besides, I am sure many of us still enjoy many things people claim to be "children's materials." In any case, no personal attacks please. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 07:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The guy who posted that happens to be in the Redwall WikiProject, it was intended as a joke. --tjstrf talk 07:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I sincerely hope no respected Egyptologist, specialising in religious iconography, joins WP and wants to call him/herself Dung Beetle... even a particularly old and venerable Egyptologist. LessHeard vanU 23:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

But remember how academically-oriented Wikipedia is...we'd probably make an exception if it were Professor Dung Beetle. The more formal title just conjures up instant respect doesn't it? : ) Doc Tropics 23:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Poop" doesn't necessarily refer to a bodily function, as the poop page makes clear. There is such a thing as a poop deck, and of course there's Mr. Toad's famous expression, "Poop Poop!" (Hmm, perhaps a user name of POOPTOAD would have been allowed?) AdorableRuffian 14:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

How do we verify the identity of a Wikipedian who claims to be the subject of an article?

If anyone can answer this question, or if you have knowledge related to the topic, please join in the discussion here. (Please do not respond here, let's keep the discussion in one place.) Thank you! Joie de Vivre 16:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Upload

Could more people look at Wikipedia:Upload? It is a form that some people have installed on the sidebar with the aim of improving upon Special:Upload (original discussion at Mediawiki talk:Uploadtext). The talk page shows disputes over whether the page should be full protected, whether it should include an obvious link to Special:Upload (for people who know what they are doing and want to put up with all the new stuff), and how it should be linked from the sidebar. Dragons flight 21:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually looks like it might be usefully user friendly. However, two seemingly identical links in the sidebar is just such a bad idea. Perhaps it should be accessible from the various image guidelines pages to which we direct newcomers, or perhaps give priority to the link that we want to encourage editors to use. Adrian M. H. 21:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to add: semi-protection should be quite sufficient, I would think. Adrian M. H. 21:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Should be at least. I agree. Jmlk17 05:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit page text nonsense.

The big warning at the bottom of edit pages recently changed to:

Do not copy text from other websites without a GFDL license. It will be deleted.

This is nonsense; it is directly contradicted by the sentence in small print just below:

Only public domain resources can be copied without permission—this does not include most web pages or images.

Seems like a revert to whatever was there before is appropriate.

Hmmm. I don't really see how that contradicts itself. The bottom says that just because someone found information on a different website, it doesn't mean it is automatically free use. Jmlk17 20:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It does contradict it, because PD websites aren't GFDL. We could even copy from CC-BY websites, because GFDL preserves attribution. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The text in question is MediaWiki:Edittools, I've changed it to "GFDL-compatible," because public domain and attribution only work too. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Unclear status of Wikipedia:Reliable sources/examples

This useful page seems partially forgotten, and has no clear status, I have labelled it with 'proposed'. See also my comments at relevant discussion page about how it ties to aspects of WP:ATT/FAQ.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

How to handle mass vandalism

I was on RC patrol last night and hit with a deluge of "Librarians are hiding something" vandalism thanks to Steven Colbert. When this happened, I found some admins helpful and willing to promptly block the mass vandals. Meanwhile, another admin told me that I needed to give the "proper set of warnings." In such an environment, the standard policy of warnings of increasing severity seems absurd. In addition, I am wondering how established users taking part in such a campaign should be handled. This morning, I reverted a POV edit on Iraq War by User:McGrupp10799. I looked at his edit log to find that he participated in the vandal-fest of '07. How should editors like this be handled? Are there set procedures on responding to a mass vandal campaign to make it easy for admins to block many or even all WP articles at once? thanks. —Gaff ^ταλκ 17:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a great question that probably deserves its own policy. My rough idea is that perhaps we can have a test template specifically designed for mass vandals, and set a rule that when there is a mass vandal event related to, say, Colbert-induced visits to wikipedia, noob vandal users are directed to a friendly page that does not bite them but tells them what harm they are doing and what the penalty is for participating in the mass vandal attack. If we need to block them after only one or two edits I think that is fine but wikipedia should come to some consensus on that penalty. MPS 18:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Very good question, as stated above. It seems to come to the personal decisions of the users and the responding admins at times. But sometimes, a vandal just goes off the hook, and before you know it, they still are not blocked, and there are dozens of pages to revert. I agree that something need s to be done, but it's a question of how are we as a community going to reach a consensus? Jmlk17 20:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm relatively new, so take my comments as you will, but I think that users which have demonstrated that they participate in mass vandalism, and ignore warnings not to continue (i.e. by participating in two vandalisms, ignoring the first warning entirely) should be considered for a short block and then forced to make their case. I do like the idea of a test page. --Edwin Herdman 21:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think {{subst:uw-vandalism4im}} was designed just for this kind of thing. One warning before blocking. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 22:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. Once that template is popped onto their page and they are blocked, then the discussion about not engaging in "funny" vandalism can commence. --Edwin Herdman 23:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

In other news, I adapted this discussion into a question for an RfA candidate. Thanks for the idea! --Edwin Herdman 02:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Is This Covered Under WP:EQ?

If I were to ask someone to repeatedly leave me alone and tell them that I do not welcome their contributions, do not feel that they are in good faith, am disturbed by their constant messages both on article pages in response to myself and on my own talk page, and trace my contributions to find new pages to bother me on, would they be justified under WP:EQ because they feel they have the right to be treated with "good faith" and that they are "helping" a user?

Or does this fall under WP:STALK and WP:EQ: "If you know you don't get along with someone, don't interact with them more than you need to. Unnecessary conflict distracts everyone from the task of making a good encyclopedia, and is just unpleasant. Actually following someone you dislike around Wikipedia is sometimes considered stalking, and is frowned on because it can be disruptive. If you don't get along with someone, try to become more friendly. If that doesn't help the situation then it is probably best to avoid them."

Also, if that person had contacts that have no involvment with you, had no reason to be going to the same pages, could not have happened onto the conversation via coincidence, and, according to Occam's Razor, probably came to the defense of someone they viewed as a friend, is this also contributing to the violation of the above rule? SanchiTachi 03:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to complain about me, best not act coy about it, especially on a page I watch. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

More facts. Don't pose this as a hypothetical. Your user page worries me, as you seem to think that telling people "not to be a dick" is fine. Yes, it's a policy, but like WP:AGF if you use it you are in danger of violating it. --Edwin Herdman 04:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm asking solely about the policy and how it should be interpreted, i.e. when does good faith get overridden. It did not require you to mention my user page, or for you to miscontrue what my userpage says. Please stay on topic or take it to my talk page if you want to further what you are saying. Thanks. Oh, and I don't use the "dick" policy, but this is not the issue, Policy is. Thanks. SanchiTachi 04:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note the two WP:ANI cases running: User:SanchiTachi and User:Someguy0830. You'll notice in both other users are heavily critical of this user's behavior. This is just another of his branch attempts to somehow pin fault on my actions. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

This comment is late due to an edit conflict: Got in before the fix (actually wasn't necessary; I'm reading both ANIs). SanchiTachi, I sympathize with you, but it does not seem good judgement to post this everywhere in hopes of a resolution. I would stick to one thread and work the process there. Brevity is ... wit, as they said on The Simpsons. --Edwin Herdman 05:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This is already being discussed in a more appropriate venue here. Why bring this dispute to the Pump? This forum is NOT a part of the dispute resolution process. Doc Tropics 04:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Retracted complaint and refactored appropriately SanchiTachi 04:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Doc. I left an appropriate partial reply to you (SanchiTachi) on my talk page, which noted that I am concerned why you brought this up without giving us appropriate context. To recap, in light of your failure to provide us the necessary context I went to your user page which provided some broad insights into your view of policy. To expand, I should have immediately noted that in your first comment here you are failing to respect WP:OWN by considering another user's edits not "appropriate;" while you may disagree with their judgement and views, no individual editor can say that other edits are "inappropriate." As noted by Doc Tropics, this very same issue is being discussed elsewhere. --Edwin Herdman 04:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Retracted complaint and refactored appropriatelySanchiTachi 04:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not limited to the lexicon you adopt when my terms are appropriate. They are.

Your question is diverting us from the true question; you are inherently assuming the other party of bad faith by asking us to classify where they went wrong. Again, as noted in the Administrator's notice board in my last very recent posting after the Gratuitous Section Break, I have been prevented from finding out what actions the other party may have made which were inappropriate because all my time has been occupied dealing with your accusations and hypothetical questions, especially since you feel the need to make redundant comments on personal Talk pages in addition to those on project pages. These questions would likely not stand up to scrutiny when applied to the actual user you're dealing with, and I refuse to waste my time on an unproductive process, or give you a label to apply to another user when it is not clear that label actually applies. --Edwin Herdman 05:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Retracted complaint and refactored appropriately. SanchiTachi 05:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I see the point, but logic leads me to consider the possibility that you are assuming bad faith by attempting to find a category in which to classify - and potentially accuse - the other party of violating policy. If you are willing to consider that perhaps the other party has done no such thing, then I will gladly retract the statement that even asking the question is in bad faith, because again logic leads me to conclude that such a thing can be asked innocently. However, your claims that User:Someguy0830 was stalking you (your exact words: "he decided to follow me anyway") explicitly rule this possibility out. Will you consider that Someguy0830 was merely attempting to help you improve the content - and, just as importantly, provide an alternate viewpoint? --Edwin Herdman 05:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping for someone to put up traditional interpretations held in the past. The "examples" on the pages are very unclear (or too extreme). I retracted my statements above. SanchiTachi 06:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for reconsidering, that makes me very happy :) On striking a comment, I would suggest using the strike (in the tool bar, or put <s>strike</s> on both sides of the text). It wasn't any problem for me to check what you changed in the History, but the strike is even faster.

Regarding the prior examples being nebulous: theoretically, I think that a system that doesn't work like the Supreme Court (i.e. no prior cases) has the potential to work better, because we can look at each case individually. WP:AGF in particular makes it very easy to assume that the other party isn't harassing you, and frankly, in all cases it's true. Always. Unless they're just spamming, or you're Tom Cruise and people are out to get you. Nobody hates an anonymous second party when they first meet on the Internet. Anyhow, other editors motioned, the guy just wanted to follow around and see if he agreed with the changes. Ain't stalking; everybody's worried about the integrity of the Encyclopedia. --Edwin Herdman 06:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Strike is something that did apply at one time and no longer applied, where as, the deletion via refaction is admittance that it never really applied. Also, what are these hippie optimism drugs that you are smoking. There is good faith, and then there is the drunken "I love you guys" type of thing. :P I consider myself a cynical optimist, I see everything in terms of "suck" and then try to make the best out of it. Oh, and you should check out the Warhammer 40,000 history to see all sorts of nasty vandalism that is put there. Its absurd, vulgar, and sometimes just weird. :) SanchiTachi 07:18, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Is users editing other users' stuff permitted?

Hello. I logged on today and saw that the user Nived 90 had been editing userboxes that were in my namespace. The userbox in question was User:FastLizard4/Userboxing/Federation. Apparently, he changed a border style because it bothered him. Isn't this not something you are supposed to do, or is there somehing I don't know?
--FastLizard4 (Talk|Contribs) 05:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC) -- I would also appreciate a response on my Talk Page.

Strictly speaking, yes. See Ownership and editing of pages in the userspace. I would contact the user directly and discuss the changes. Now, this is important - the userbox you linked to is used by pages in Star Trek projects. That means that while it is in your user space it affects other people. I am going to assume it was causing some problem and Nived 90 was attempting to fix it. --Edwin Herdman 05:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be an annoyance to some... I personally think user pages are just for someone to edit to their liking, but are not impervious to others editing. But hey, just read the link above :). Jmlk17 06:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I am a relatively new user to wikipedia, so I am not completely familiar with the workings of it.

--FastLizard4 (Talk|Contribs) 06:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is so big that even users who've been here a while can be surprised. :) --Edwin Herdman 07:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

lol exactly...I get caught off guard on some things, and I've been here 18 months! Must be odd for the 3 year people. Jmlk17 21:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

No page should be 100% owned by anyone, and WP:AGF Nived 90 had some good reason. Still, I'd always tell the user what I'd done and why.--Runcorn 21:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Nived 90 was probably trying to be helpful :-) I'd thank them, then discuss how to get along. :-) --Kim Bruning 21:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC) if you didn't actually like the change, still say thank you -it's the thought that counts :-) - and then discuss if maybe you can figure out a style that you both like

NPOV and article structure

There is an active discussion regarding article structure and neutral point of view at WT:NPOV. Separate criticism sections would be an example of potential concern. There is currently a proposal to insert a clarification regarding this issue. Vassyana 06:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

New proposal - Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects

Following discussion at Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization#Categorizing redirects, I've started a proposal at Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects and would like community input and help to edit the proposal and see if it is acceptable. Please discuss on its talk page, and suggest other places to get input. Thanks. Carcharoth 23:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposal on attack sites

I propose an alternative to WP:BADSITES. My proposal is that an official Wikipedia anti-attack site bot is to be established and it automatically alter or remove the link to attack sites whenever the bot detects it. The bot shall be logged on Wikimedia foundation server and operate 24/7. This would decrease the human, manual, and controversial burden to remove "attack sites". Of course, in extraordinary circumstances where a link is needed, there is ways to get around it. This proposal can solve the long attack site controversy, regards. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 02:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

So instead of warring at individual pages, you suggest a separate list be set up (similar to the blacklist)? This would only intensify the debate, as it would be solely focused on one page. Or do you suggest that the bot be smart enough to automatically detect such sites? --- RockMFR 02:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If having humans act in a robotic way to remove links without regard to purpose or context, why is it any better to have an actual robot do it? See my essay for my position on the whole issue. *Dan T.* 03:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Dan, the reason is, when humans erroneously removes a site as attack site, they are subconsciously unwilling to admit that a mistake was done, and they war over and defend the removal. When a robot makes a mistake and an editor sees it, he would have no hesitation to change it back and use ways to get around the bot, people would just say "keep the link in another way (like using a space and indicate so), it's a robotic error". It's about human psychology. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 03:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Now, if this proposal were accepted, Shadowbot could do it. However, I'm not sure how this is an alternative to BADSITES: it puts the focus on certain selected sites, rather than on attack pages in general, which is less effective for truly protecting Wikipedians. Gracenotes^T § 03:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If we knew all the bad sites well enough to make a blacklist, we wouldn't need people to enforce the policy. Sites need to be judged case by case. Anything universally unacceptable can be enforced by existing anti-spam measures. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 03:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The blacklist only list sites, which doesn't work. The bot I propose would detect a link that has the word "Wikipedia" or "Wiki" with an editor's name/a insulting word, meaning that the site attacks Wikipedia and "out" the identity of editors. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 03:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

That's way too broad. You'd end up blocking links to news stories about wikipedia. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 04:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It would come back around and bite us in the end. Jmlk17 06:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

A bot based on the premise of

...a link that has the word "Wikipedia" or "Wiki" with an editor's name/a insulting word, meaning that the site attacks Wikipedia and "out" the identity of editors...

is precisely not the kind of automated listing (and delisting) function to have. Firstly, "Wiki(pedia)/Username/Bad word" is not exclusively a combination used by attack sites, and will result in very many sites containing comment being tagged e.g. any site mentioning WP, Jimbo Wales (he has a username and is thus an editor), and using a bad word in any context. That would likely list half of all mentions of WP on the 'net. Secondly, how on earth does this combination of parameters define an outing site (which would be a much more legitimate area of concern)? Outing sites are far more dangerous, and do need to be dealt with with the greatest of expediency, and I would support deployment of a bot that searches for such links, but the parameters need to be much more clearly defined. A thought that occurs to me is that if such a bot were succesful then there would be a repository of site addresses that anyone with access and a grudge could easily access (and post off-site).

Rather than addressing the problem the use of a bot may create more nuisance. I would rather place my trust in a group of fallible humans, who are able to make decisions based on nuances and application of commonsense. LessHeard vanU 09:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as the actual history of such erasures is concerned, a fair number consisted of nothing more than a bare link. Now, this brings us back to the problem of whether these erasures are justified in the first place, but if they are, then the only solution is a blacklist. Mangoe 12:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions for baseball players

The members of the Baseball Players Task Force (a part of WikiProject Baseball) have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player bios. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)