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*'''overturn''' for process --the BLP concern can only be about the accused, who has pled not guilty, and the article about him remains on WP. The N consideration for speedy is no assertion of notability, and that was not the case, for if the possible murderer was notable, it is reasonable to think that the victim might be. Not that I would necessarily agree in the end, but it was not a speedy. It is clearly not an uncontroversial deletion, and needs a open discussion. The discussion should be taking place at AfD, and not here. There have been too many examples lately of IFEELITINMYHEART as a reason--one way or another. I would have done just what Night Gyr suggests. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 23:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
*'''overturn''' for process --the BLP concern can only be about the accused, who has pled not guilty, and the article about him remains on WP. The N consideration for speedy is no assertion of notability, and that was not the case, for if the possible murderer was notable, it is reasonable to think that the victim might be. Not that I would necessarily agree in the end, but it was not a speedy. It is clearly not an uncontroversial deletion, and needs a open discussion. The discussion should be taking place at AfD, and not here. There have been too many examples lately of IFEELITINMYHEART as a reason--one way or another. I would have done just what Night Gyr suggests. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 23:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion'''. I find myself in agreement with the '''comment by closing admin''' above. [[User:ElinorD|ElinorD]] [[User talk:ElinorD|(talk)]] 23:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion'''. I find myself in agreement with the '''comment by closing admin''' above. [[User:ElinorD|ElinorD]] [[User talk:ElinorD|(talk)]] 23:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
* This article is dead. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


====[[:Anna Mae He]]====
====[[:Anna Mae He]]====

Revision as of 00:57, 31 May 2007

< May 29 Deletion review archives: 2007 May May 31 >

30 May 2007

Wayne Crookes (closed)

Sofia Rodriguez-Urrutia-Shu

Sofia Rodriguez-Urrutia-Shu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

A properly referenced article that probably warrants existence but at the very least should go through AfD. Deleting administrator states "No assertion of notability, article in poor taste, BLP by spirit, if not letter" - if it is not by the letter of BLP then it should certainly not be deleted using that (given the conflicted opinions about BLP deletions). Notability must be assumed at least to a basic degree because of the references. violet/riga (t) 17:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by closing admin. BLP is about protecting the dignity of people. The fact that the child in question is dead does not remove the fundamental BLP issues - her family, including her brother mentioned by name in the article, still have every bit as much potential to be hurt by this article as she would be. BLP is our policy about being ethical citizens. This article has clear ethical issues - this is an ephemral case where we do not add meaningfully to the world and we substantively take away. It should remain deleted. Phil Sandifer 17:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted We are not a newspaper, nor a shrine to the dead, and murderers are not automatically encyclopedic. If it turned out that the killer was a former juvenile offender released with a new identity, that might deserve an article which would mention the victim. Otherwise, keep deleted. Thatcher131 17:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn, cached version was not problematic, notability was asserted with sources, was not a news article as some assert, and, sadly, the subject was dead, so BLP isn't really a useful distinction here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Wikipedia is not a memorial. Thousands of people are murdered every year. Mackensen (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - There was nothing which demonstrated encyclopedic interest. Scurrilous, unsourced and almost-certainly-false rumors about the relationship of this case to another one do not demonstrate that. FCYTravis 18:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion -- I'm questioning the, um, point of bringing every common sense deletion of someone's misguided attempt at an encyclopedia article about a non notable living person based on their being involved in some news story or other. Is this an exercise in seeing how many people will trot out to vote on these? If I had the impression that the users bringing these here actually wanted to collect biographical data on everyone mentioned in the news in the 21st century I would suggest starting a project somewhere else to do that; it's not our mission. But that doesn't seem to be the case. So why exactly are we here? Jkelly 18:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion - the article was not about this person, the references were not about this person. They both referred to other events. There was no assertion in the slightest of encyclopedic notability (and yes, in cases like these we do have a certain duty of sensitivity etc). Wikipedia is not a news reporting agency, and articles about people should be about those people. Not about other events. Moreschi Talk 18:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn deletion. This seems to be an out-of-process deletion per the edit summary on the speedy deletion: "No assertion of notability, article in poor taste, BLP by spirit, if not letter."

    As for "No assertion of notability": WP:CSD#A7 refers to "Unremarkable people" and "An article about a real person [...] that does not assert the importance or significance of its subject." I haven't read the article to ascertain its importance or significance, nor can I because of the deletion, but continuing: "If controversial, [...] the article should be nominated for AfD instead." I would say that the reactions here (and other articles) constitute controversy.

    While "poor taste" may appear in an essay or in discussions, I'm not familiar with any policy or CSD that makes any reference to it. It strikes me as a very POV interpretation, and not grounds for deletion of an article.

    "WP:BLP" seems to be a primary point of contention both here and at other discussions of recent OOP deletions; but as Sofia Rodriguez-Urrutia-Shu isn't an "LP", that seems patently inapplicable.

    I don't have any vested interest in this article, and don't particularly want to argue the merits of the article itself as (aforementioned) I haven't/can't read it. But AFAIKT, this seems to have been a sourced and verifiable article that, while possibly meriting a deletion discussion, did not qualify as a speedy deletion as was implemented. There is no CSD for I don't think it's encyclopedic. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 20:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn, redirecting to the article on the murderer (which still exists) may have been appropriate, to avoid redundancy, but this article did not fit any speedy criteria. C'mon people, take these to afd. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • overturn for process --the BLP concern can only be about the accused, who has pled not guilty, and the article about him remains on WP. The N consideration for speedy is no assertion of notability, and that was not the case, for if the possible murderer was notable, it is reasonable to think that the victim might be. Not that I would necessarily agree in the end, but it was not a speedy. It is clearly not an uncontroversial deletion, and needs a open discussion. The discussion should be taking place at AfD, and not here. There have been too many examples lately of IFEELITINMYHEART as a reason--one way or another. I would have done just what Night Gyr suggests. DGG 23:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. I find myself in agreement with the comment by closing admin above. ElinorD (talk) 23:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article is dead. --Tony Sidaway 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anna Mae He

Anna Mae He (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

This was deleted with no process at all, citing WP:BLP as the reason. The article was well sourced, including citations to multiple national news stories. There was and is no BLP issue here, not by the current terms of WP:BLP at least. And if there were, that case could properly be made in an AfD where the matter could be discussed, changes to the article proposed, and a proper consensus on whether the BLP policy calls for any modification of this article, rather than its being deleted by one admins unilateral action. This was in no reasonable sense an "attack page". There was no need for a speedy deletion here, a delay of a few days to let the matter be discussed at an AfD would have done no serious harm, and IMO the proper policy based result of an AfD would have been "keep", perhaps with some editing down. Overturn and let anyone who wishes nominate for AfD. (The deleting admin has already been notified that other editors disagree with the deletion, and has declined to undelte said he would undelte the history, (but implied only as part of a merge) if consensus developed to do so.) DES (talk) 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn. No legitimate rationale for deletion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and list at AfD, whatever BLP issues there are are probably not bad enough to warrant speedy deletion, since the article was sourced. List it at AfD since there are potential problems here with notability, among other things. --Coredesat 16:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted - Yet another in a series of tabloid articles attempting to document in excruciating detail for all eternity every single child who was ever temporarily in the news. This page was not a biography, but instead a 20-paragraph report of every single twist and turn in the court case over her custody. Part of it could be merged into a broader article on child custody, but beyond that, the details of the case are hardly encyclopedic. FCYTravis 16:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Perhaps so, but that could and should have been discussed at an AfD where options such as merging, or rewriting could have been discussed and tried. Or the editor could have been bold in editing and edited down to a stub while discussing on the talk page. Speedy deletion should be the last resort, not the first. DES (talk) 17:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh for goodness sake! There's a civil discussion going on on my userpage - during which I've indicated a willingness for undeletion to be considered. But alone comes DESiegel, doesn't bother discussing anything or entering into that discussion, and plops it here. Can he please provide evidence for his assertion that I have "declined to undelete". No. Please try using discussion rather than process next time.--Docg 17:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. To claim that the administrator has declined to undelete when discussion is on-going hardly seems accurate. Mackensen (talk) 17:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Per WP:BLP#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material, biographical articles should only be speedily deleted if an article is both unsourced and negative in tone. Editors may disagree with whether or not it is negative in tone, and I personally do not think so, but it is a fact that the article is well-sourced. And to respond to User:FCYTravis - if you believe the content of an article is not notable or not encyclopedia, I believe the correct process is to list it at AfD, and not speedy delete it. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. This article reads like a tabloid, not a biography. Heck, the first line introduces this person as a victim of a custody battle. There is no reason for this article to exist. Sean William @ 17:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per HongQiGong. Some endorse comments read more like delete votes at AfD and that's where this should be. violet/riga (t) 17:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion BLP allows for bold action in cases like this, not to mention that this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a branch of Wikinews. If this person is notable a year from now, then a short, encyclopedic (not 'blow by blow story retelling') article might be appropriate, but this is just tabloid-surfing and an AfD is unnecessary before-hand. If DrV consensus is to run it through AfD, then it should after the fact without foul, but there would have to be an acceptance of the decision. BDJ's participation above should remind us that endless DRV-AfD cycles are a possibility and consensus should reflect awareness that at some point, the discussion has to stop. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • BLP only allows for speedy deletion if the article is negative and unsourced - not if an admin thinks the article is not unencyclopedic. The article is not a hoax or an attack page, suggestions on how to improve it or even proposed deletion using the "prod" tag would have been much appreciated. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm reading BLP right now, I see nothing to indicate that this is permissable. Also, I have no clue why you're tossing my name out there in that way. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted It is impossible to write a neutral, encyclopedic article about a person's life when the only reliable sources relate to a single incident, no matter how well documented. How sad that the family troubles of this person have been so well documented that for the rest of her life, potential employers, co-workers, suitors, neighbors, and anyone with a purient interest in the private lives of other people will be able to discover every detail of her private life, and how disgusting that some Wikipedians think we should be a party to this with our top-ten web site simply because there are enough sources to keep us clear of libel laws. Jimbo's edit to WP:NOT makes it clear this sort of article is no longer appropriate. If process demands that it be kept, then fuck process. Thatcher131 17:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • It may be that the article should be renamed to one about a courtcase or a custody battle, and this incident is notable because it reached a state Supreme Court, with the Embassy of China sending representatives to listen in on the case, but I don't believe "fuck process" is a legitimate reason to delete an article. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Do you have any idea how many custody cases reach state supreme courts each year? Hundreds if not thousands. Unless a case leads to an important precedent, I find little reason to consider any particular custody case encyclopedic, and the fact that this article would enshrine in perpetuity not just the subject, a minor at the time, but also unproven allegations of abuse against the parents, argues for me against inclusion. Thatcher131 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • The incident has also appeared in a whole lot of press coverage, including multiple articles on ABC News - to link a few[2][3][4][5] - would you not say that makes the incident notable? As I've said, maybe the article needed to be renamed, but there's nothing in WP:BLP that warrants its deletion. You said earlier that it is "sad" that this person's custody battle is documented here, but the article only reflects existing sources. If something is inaccurately reflected of our sources, we can improve it. That you think it's "sad" her custody battle is documented is not a reason to delete an article. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • WIkipedia is not a newspaper. Lots of things that get lots of newspaper coverage don't belong in an encyclopedia. And as far as I can concerned, respecting basic human dignity is a reason to delete an article, especially one about a little girl who did nothing wrong but which will ensure that she will forever be known primarily for her family's problem. Do you understand the level to which this article invades her privacy, and will continue to invade it for years if not decades? Never mind ECHELON or Warrantless searches in the United States, fear Wikipedia. Thatcher131 18:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Under that rationale, any number of WP articles could be deleted, and huge chunks of an article like Iraq War can be removed. I understand your empathy for the little girl, but our job as WP is only to reflect the sources. And one can also argue that she "deserves to know the truth" - we can go back and forth forever with these types of rationale based on personal preference forever. What we need to do is stick to policies, they're there to give a semblance of order. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Poppycock. Most of the sources for Iraq war are newspaper articles because it's an ongoing event. In ten years there will be books written about the war, and in 20 years there will be revisionist histories criticizing the first wave of books, and so on. A war is an encyclopedic event; a child custody battle is not. Thatcher131 18:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                • And that's a notability issue, that's something that should have been discussed at an AfD. WP:BLP only allows for speedy deletion if an article is negative in tone and unsourced, not because it's "sad" that a person's custody battle is documented. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • (after EC) Whether it should be kept, or in what form, would IMO be better discussed with the article at hand for all to read, and edit. That is what an article talk page could do after a stubing edit, or an AfD discussion. "It is impossible to write a neutral, encyclopedic article about a person's life when the only reliable sources relate to a single incident" we have many articela about hsitorice figures notable only for their participation in a single incident. not all articles named for a person need be full biographies -- indeed not all can. Yet there is no rule sayign that we msut have either a full biography or nothing at all. Maybe we should ahve a policy to that effect (although i disagree). But we don't yet. If this deletion is undone, that does not for a moment mean the article will never be deelted, much less never drastically rewritten or merged. Why are people being so much in a rush to delete? Would a few days discussion in an AfD have been a major problem? DES (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Jimbo's edit does nothing of the sort. A neutral, encyclopedic article is not only possible, but existed at the time of deletion. Nothing said in the article was not already a very high google hit with or without us. It's time to kill that "top ten website" red herring for good. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Could anyone please comment on WP:BLP#Articles about living people notable only for one event? It seems to me that it would qualify, but I'm open to persuasion. --Ishu 17:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. When you write an article about a certain person, you are expected to write about that person. This was not an article about her in the slightest. Possibly an article that complied with BLP and was actually about her could be written, though I would prefer not, as as far as I can tell she is a private individual. Not an article we need. This custody battle may well be notable. She is not. Write an article about the custody fight, then, not this non-biography. Moreschi Talk 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted: per Thatcher131. You have got to be kidding me. There was a lot of ink used on one incident? Gee, what a surprise. We have tabloid press gossip even on notable papers - I'm um, shocked? No, actually, I'm not. What I am wondering is why we're wasting time on a process-wanky Drv for an article about someone which is so clearly not an encyclopedic topic. This is not only Articles about living people notable only for one event, this is not even remotely a Significant one event. I'm sure I can find lots of ink on any number of completely nn people, based on one incident which the press picked up and ran with, but that doesn't make it encyclopedic. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Article is ethically bankrupt. Phil Sandifer 18:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion -- I'm questioning the, um, point of bringing every common sense deletion of someone's misguided attempt at an encyclopedia article about a non notable living person based on their being involved in some news story or other. Is this an exercise in seeing how many people will trot out to vote on these? If I had the impression that the users bringing these here actually wanted to collect biographical data on everyone mentioned in the news in the 21st century I would suggest starting a project somewhere else to do that; it's not our mission. But that doesn't seem to be the case. So why exactly are we here? Jkelly 18:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn, Seriously, speedy is only supposed to be for uncontroversial deletions and you HAVE to know that deleting well-sourced articles is going to be controversial. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • A controversial speedy is necessarily an incorrect one? Not seen that before. Be nice if the article was actually about the title, at any rate...Moreschi Talk 19:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The point of speedy deletions is to accelerate the pace of eliminating narrow classes of material that almost everyone agrees should be gone, as the rules say: 'These criteria are worded narrowly and such that in most cases reasonable editors will agree what does or does not fall under a given criterion. If a page does not uncontestably fall under a criterion, or it has previously survived a deletion discussion (except in the case of newly discovered copyright infringements), another process such as Wikipedia:Proposed deletion or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion should be used instead.' It's not supposed to be unlimited power to remove anything an administrator doesn't think belongs. 19:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Night Gyr (talk • contribs) 14:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • (after EC) From WP:CSD "These criteria are worded narrowly and such that in most cases reasonable editors will agree what does or does not fall under a given criterion. If a page does not uncontestably fall under a criterion, or it has previously survived a deletion discussion (except in the case of newly discovered copyright infringements), another process such as Wikipedia:Proposed deletion or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion should be used instead." That at least strongly suggests that deletions known to be controversial should not usualy be speedys. DES (talk) 19:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It's come to my attention that editors like User:Badlydrawnjeff and User:Doc glasgow for some time now been involved in disputes about biographical articles, what to keep, what to delete, and how to apply WP:BLP. Please see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff. I just became aware of this and have no opinion in the overall matter. But I honestly feel like the Anna Mae He article in question here just became a careless casualty in this "war". The article was not an abuse of process, this was not a case of multiple AfDs and multiple DRVs - the article was simply speedy deleted even though it was sourced. The article may have problems, but it was a work of good faith attempts to have a good article. I have no desire at all to be involved in these ongoing disputes about biographical articles. I would really appreciate it if deletion was overturned and suggestions are offered as to how to improve the article, or even have the article go through an AfD process, instead of just speedy deleted. Maybe it needs to be renamed, maybe it needs to be trimmed down, maybe it needs more sources. It's more than a little disheartening that good faith editing is just speedy deleted because of an ongoing dispute about biographical articles. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Wikipedia is not a tabloid, and the article certainly reads like it belongs in one. --Carnildo 19:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • List at AFD - This DRV is looking too much like an AFD. All uncited information and information cited from unreliable sources should be removed before that though. I think blanking the page for the AFD and having users go to the article's history to view the text might be appropriate though, as it is a tabloidish story. Wickethewok 20:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion This article was not a biography, it was sensationalist journalism. This is Wikipedia, not Wikinews. -- Donald Albury 20:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion Others have said it better: this is not a biography, it's an unencyclopaedic account of a messy custody battle and a millstone to hang around the neck of a child who has no say in it. Guy (Help!) 21:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm not familiar enough with Wikipedia policy to offer a substantive opinion on any of this, but I do think a speedy deletion was uncalled for. While it's true this was an unencyclopedic biography of a living minor, the custody battle seems notable enough(sadly) to at least merit a discussion of its inclusion. Also, I really hope this: [6],[7], doesn't go any farther, but if the U.S. Supreme Court gets involved, we may actually be forced to include it.Lindentree 22:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn for discussion There are possible BLP concerns, since the subject is a child is a custody battle, but the article has existed for over a year, and should not be deleted by unilateral process. AfD is the place for discussion. It is frequently said here in denying overturns that only process is relevant here. An incorrect speedy is process. N was asserted by the article. If one disagrees, that's what AfD is for. DGG 23:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per FCYTravis and per Thatcher131. ElinorD (talk) 23:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse my deletion We are not doing this to a child. We are not restoring a horrible, intrusive, mess in order to satisfy process wonking. No.--Docg 00:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and list at AFD. Given that this child may have a state law named after her, I think there's a good argument that a) Wikipedia should have some coverage of the case and b) Wikipedia is not substantially increasing the profile of this individual, although a potential rename of the article would probably be appropriate. JavaTenor 00:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep deleted or restore to a different name - if the article is about the custody battle, call it Hae vs Baker custody battle or something - don't claim that the article is a bio of the girl. And there's plenty in there that is unsourced. --BigDT 00:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted: Not everything that appears in a newspaper appears in an encyclopedia. This is a classic example of that. Danny 00:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted - this is the sorta shit WP:BLP was made to keep dead - David Gerard 00:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is absolutely no place for any article like this on this encyclopedia. I therefore express relief that it was deleted, an act that I would have been urging on any administrator within earshot, had I known about it before Doc. Needless to say if any administrator restores it I shall call for him to be stopped. --Tony Sidaway 00:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted - truely awful article with an almost non existent amount of encyclopedic content on the actual subject. Don't get me wrong, there's sources and such but none of the content is encyclopedic and none of it is about the subject - sourced butn unencyclopedic content must die. This article stays dead. Nick 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jurassic Park IV (closed)

George Griswold Frelinghuysen

George Griswold Frelinghuysen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

notable and referenced by current standards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs).

  • The only AfD I see is from two years ago and was entirely proper. Unless I'm missing something, why not just create an article? Mackensen (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorce deletion but with no prejudice against creating a new and sourced article. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist Totally inadequate AfD, only three people, 2 against and one for., argument for nom "and a President of the P. Ballantine & Sons Company, whatever that is," when it was a linked WP article. Argument for 1st delete: even though he had an Arboretum name for him (that was also N enough to have a WP article), argument of 2nd delete: "nn" I dont know what the standards were in 05, but this discussion doesn't meet any reasonable standard today. The existing article is a good stub as it is. DGG 23:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Obviously not available through Google cache after all this time, but, as Mackensen says, why not just create the article? ElinorD (talk) 23:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Article was deleted almost two years ago. No one's stopping you from creating a new one. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 00:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Songs by composer

This category was merged into Category:Songs by songwriter as a result of a discussion on Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_7#Category:Songs by composer. Unfortunately, the person who proposed that merge did not have the courtesy to notify me that this was being discussed, as suggested in Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Howto#Notes_for_nominators, so I only discovered that this was done after it had already happened. It seems that there are some people who think that, just because there are few people who nowadays write just lyrics or just music, that the distinction between lyricists and composers is useless (see Mike Selinker's comment on Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 18#Songs by songwriter), but I think that this decision should not have been made without allowing those of us who are primarily concerned with older music to disagree.

Postings which have been made by Johnbod, both in Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 18#Songs by songwriter and directly to me in User talk, seem to imply that he thinks all one needs to do is recreate Category:Songs by composer. It is my understanding that that would be a violation of Wikipedia procedural rules, so I can't see my just going ahead and doing it. And at least one other user, InnocuousPseudonym, agrees with me that what was done was a mistake. So I wish to reopen that discussion. -- BRG 14:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • The first debate was a rename, not a merge. The nominator commented: "For the best logical arrangement we maybe ought to have 3 categories (by songwriter, by composer, by lyricist) but in the interests of avoiding over-categorisation I think renaming this category would be the best solution." He pointed out that a great number of the people categorised wrote both words and music. I personally feel that the decision there did not rule out the re-establishment of Category:Songs by composer for pure composers (musicwriters) only. The lyricists already have their category, which is not involved in these debates. Classical music is unaffected by all this btw, that has different categories. It is clear from two later debates on May 18 and the abortive one onMay 17 that the songwriters category has good support, for people who wrote both words and music. I think BRG should be asking here for confirmation that there is no block on creating a new Category:Songs by composer for people who only wrote the music. I would support this. Johnbod 14:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As BRG says, I strongly support the re(?)-creation of a "Songs by composer" category. The composer-lyricist distinction was the norm for at least the first half of the 20th century (encompassing the bulk of the Great American Songbook) and applies to at least a portion of more recent songwriting teams. InnocuousPseudonym 20:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in my case, I don't think the previous decision should be overturned (and there are many editors I'm sure who would agree), but I think the closing here should confirm that a re-creation of the "vacated" Composers category would be ok, so there are 3 categories: by songwriter, by composer, by lyricist. Johnbod 00:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse renaming. Seems like the debate was pretty clearly for renaming. I'm not sure what my comment about composers and lyricists has to do with the validity of the closing decision.--Mike Selinker 00:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Cool Cat

User:Cool Cat (edit | [[Talk:User:Cool Cat|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|MfD)

Improper closure of an MFD discussion. This page was a redirect from an old userpage to a new one, and one that contains over 2,000 incoming links. The page was originally deleted at the request of the user, User:White Cat. The deletion was seem as unnecessary and made things needlessly confusing for edits both editors finding Cool/White Cat, and for users following those links. I recreated the redirect, per Wikipedia:User page. White Cat tried to place the speedy delete tag on the page once again, but it no longer qualified for speedy delete. It was then taken to MFD. Two admins have attempted to close the MFD, both on incorrect grounds. The first admin was reverted by myself, with support from other users including at least two other administrators whom felt taking it to DVR wasn't necessary. It has since been speedy closed again, but now the page has been protected.

Speedy closed as "user request" (WP:CSD#U1), however U1 states that if U1 is contested it should be taken to MFD: " If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page. "

Improper close, plain and simple. Even if you don't feel such things are necessary, they are supported by policy and guidelines, and by several people from the MFD. Something to note is that even if the MFD got speedy closed that still won't prevent the user page from being recreated. Recreating pages is not a 3RR violation, as some people have suggested, especially since there is no consensus or policy that requires the page to have been deleted. This is normally not even an issue we face, because long before that we take such situations to XfD. If you feel this redirect should be deleted, then all the more reason to continue the MFD, which would create a consensus to keep deleted.

This isn't even a big deal, but it's somewhat bizarre that both White Cat and the deleting admins feel so strongly about deleting the page. No reason has been cited for deletion, and there would be nothing to gain from it, and it would only inconvenience and make things confusing for others. Keeping a redirect hurts no one, and shouldn't be a controversial issue. But, for whatever reason, it is controversial, and that's what we have the MFD for.

Also, no one is saying anyone has to have a userpage, that is not the function the page is having at this time. Rather, this page is now pointing users to the new user name that Cat has chosen. White Cat has made it very clear that he did not change usernames to vanish or start fresh, and has been completely open about who he is and was (complete with links on his current user page). Of course users can have their own pages deleted, but that's not the issue here. It's a redirect, for the sake of a great amount of past discussion and many incoming links. It actually benefits White Cat (which makes the situation even more bizarre).

I'd like to quote something David Levy said it to Newyorkbrad (the final admin to close the MFD):

"No offense, but I don't perceive you as a neutral party (to any greater extent than I'm a neutral party). You didn't weigh the arguments and arrive at a consensus-based decision. You threw them out and substituted your own judgement for that of the community (instead of simply expressing your opinion in the discussion). —David Levy 22:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)"

And having said all that, relist MFD -- Ned Scott 05:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted - the old talk page is still there. Anyone looking for the user can easily find him. I don't know or care why he wants his old page deleted, but as someone who has been harassed before, I can certainly understand that there might be a good reason. At any rate, unless there is evidence of bad behavior or some such thing, we delete user pages on demand. Five admins have deleted this page. One person has recreated it four times and reverted an admin's close of the MFD twice. Something is wrong somewhere along the line. --BigDT 05:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not the MFD discussion itself. The closing was improper, regardless of how you feel about the situation. Also, even if I was the one who recreated the page and reverted the closure, others (including two administrators) supported that. -- Ned Scott 05:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Other people have not re-created it in order to allow the discussion to proceed and be well-considered, but that was truncated. The fact that more people were edit-warring to achieve a certain outcome does not mean that outcome is right or better. No reason whatsoever has been provided by User:Cool Cat for deleting the page, and if the reason were harassment, the effective way to end harassment is to actually create a new account completely severed from the old one. If there were harassment, migrating all his contribs and making 10,000 edits to change his signature advertising the change to everyone with a watchlist would be the least effective way to end it. —Centrx→talk • 05:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Ned, you and everyone else would be much better off if you would let Cool Cat (or whatever he wants to call himself) be and move on to other things. Seriously. Chick Bowen 05:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted This is grossly unnecessary. --MichaelLinnear 05:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abstain. While I agree that this closure was improper, our ultimate goal is to build consensus (not drama). I've been discussing this matter with White Cat, and he has expressed a willingness to work toward some sort of compromise with the community (beginning with the creation of a temporary page at User:Cool Cat pending a long-term solution). Therefore, I urge you to withdraw this listing (at least for the time being). —David Levy 05:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted - Users can have their own user pages deleted for any reason - end of story - thats why they are user pages. There shouldn't have even been an MFD. The amount of time/text wasted on this already is pretty ridiculous/hilarious/sad. Wickethewok 05:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know how many times I have to quote this: " If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page." Your reason for keeping it deleted is not supported by the deletion policy, which directed us to an MFD. You can disagree with that all you want, but that's the way it is (for now). -- Ned Scott 05:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, that presumes that the account's contribs remain at the same username. In this case, they were all moved elsewhere, which without a redirect would be mysterious. —Centrx→talk • 05:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Reminding everyone that this is not a vote. It's been shown that this has been an improper closure, and unless you can show otherwise then how you feel about the deletion itself really isn't relevant to the MFD being relisted or not. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any admin can speedy any page that falls into the criteria for speedy deletion. The fact that there was an MFD going on changes nothing. This was not an out of process deletion - it was a legitimate speedy deletion. --BigDT 05:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Deletion. I've looked at WP:CSD#U1, and the history back through April, and cannot find what Ned Scott quotes above. U1 reads: Personal subpages, upon request by their user. In some rare cases there may be administrative need to retain the page. Also, sometimes, main user pages may be deleted as well. See Wikipedia:User page for full instructions and guidelines. Also, relative to the Right to Vanish, I know of nothing that would require White Cat to have a redirect from his old name. The original deletion seems proper, and I don't see any need for it to have been at MfD in the first place. I'm more concerned about Ned's actions in this, the extremes to which he is forcing this issue. --InkSplotch 06:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    It's on the linked page with full instructions. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    "See Wikipedia:User page for full instructions and guidelines." As for my actions, I would not call what I am doing an "extreme"... I do get worked up when I see people side step discussions and force an issue, though, but who wouldn't? You're basically asking why I care. For one, he's using this deletion to justify changing his old sig in talk archives, which he was forced to stop, and was reverted on. Second, and probably the bigger motivation, regardless of what the MFD is about the forced closure was totally unacceptable. It's alright if other people don't care, and if they think it's silly, but that's no reason to throw other people's valid concerns out the window. No one is asking that anyone cares about this, we're just asking for a simple discussion on the matter. -- Ned Scott 06:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, I see it now. Thanks for pointing it out. Well, it's a stronger argument now, but I'm still looking into things...particularly this bit about Cat updating his old signatures. If anyone has a link to the discussion on AN, I'd appreciate it. At this time, I'm letting my vote stand. CSD is a policy, the supporting User Page is only a guideline. Ned, I called your actions extreme because you seem to be the only one carrying this torch, and it seems more disruptive to me than just letting Cat fix his old signature links. I referenced Right to Vanish, and I still feel it applies here...'Vanish' isn't just leaving Wikipedia, it's also a right to a fresh start. You're causing a lot more drama for Cat trying to do just this than is at all necessary. I'll keep reading up on this, but for now my comment stands. --InkSplotch 13:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Ned Scott, thats a combative mentality frowned upon on wikipedia. -- Cat chi? 13:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Improper close, plain and simple. He was trying to short circuit a fight that was getting pretty nasty, but speedy closes only throw gasoline on that fire. Better to give it the full five days to burn out. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong endorse deletion, m:Right to vanish, valid U1 - the page has no apparent need to be retained, and an existing MFD does not disqualify a speedy by any means if the page meets one of the criteria; in this case, the page was {{db-user}}'d, etc. Stop forcing this issue; apparently it's not enough to edit war over whether the redirect should exist. Furthermore, you should not have reverted the MFD closures at all, as you are not an admin; if you had a problem you should have brought it up with the closing admin or came here first. --Coredesat 07:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • This user does not wish to vanish, it has nothing to do with the right to vanish at all. Second, being an admin or not has no bearing on being able to revert a closure. Being an admin does not give one more authority, it just means they are trusted with admin tools. Reverting the MFD was an attempt to make the issue less of a big deal and to not waste people's time. Reasons for retaining the redirect have been provided. The U1 CSD says specifically to use WP:USER for detailed instructions, where it says that an MFD does disqualify it from being a speedy. Disagree with that all you want, but that's what it says. It is not a valid U1 deletion, and that's a fact. -- Ned Scott 08:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • endose I closed this MfD as a speedy delete and was reverted for some reason - Brad did the right thing. Now, go do something useful.--Docg 09:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Get on with life. Trebor 09:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: In other words... you revert warred with 5 admins and the user owning the userpage. -- Cat chi? 10:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
    -- Cat chi? 10:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse per some prior DRV discussions where it's better to overrule policy for common sense. – Chacor 10:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Deletion The page was deleted in accordance with common sense and policy (I can't believe I said that). CharonX/talk 11:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sigh. I'd make a fuss about how, once again, "I know best now shut up" has been a fellow admin's response to a discussion he doesn't agree with, but, really, what's the point? Neil (►) 12:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy endorse - if it isn't U1 it would be G7. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 14:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    You mean G8? :D -- Cat chi? 14:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted I am more and more convinced that Wikipedia is (collectively) insane. What possible reason is there to not grant this user the courtesy afforded to any other user who asks it, including a number of notable pests? This should never have been at MfD in the first place. Thatcher131 14:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The difference is the other users' contribs were not moved, thus severing the user account from its history. There are also no personal information or harassment issues, because the user has kept all his contribs connected to his new account. —Centrx→talk • 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted echoing Thatcher's concerns above. White Cat has been extremely cooperative in keeping links to significant elements of his previous identity on his new userpage (including the block log). This seems to me a straightforward CSD U1 request and NYB was correct to delete it. I remain unpersuaded that the deletion of this page is harmfull or that White Cat has to prove it is beneficial. Deletion of userspace is performed on request except in exceptional circumstances - this seems fairly mundane to me. WjBscribe 14:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from the deleting administrator or I should say from one of the five admins who deleted this redirect. I re-deleted the redirect by request of the user involved. Simply put, the idea that this trivial matter warranted a five-day community-wide discussion is inane. I do not understand why this matter is being pressed so vigorously—or indeed, at all—and no one has been willing to tell me, which I find extraordinary. I respect our deletion processes and yet, there comes a limit to the extent in which we should engage in process for its own sake and it is submitted that with all respect we have reached it. Editors interested in debating policy issues have several hundred more productive discussions in which they could participate to choose from. Newyorkbrad 15:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Simply, if someone wishes to find the contribs that used to be associated with User:Cool Cat, or to contact that user, they are going to spend time finding the new account, and then rather than making everyone waste that time create a simple redirect which there is no reason to delete. This is not process for its own sake; the discussion is supposed to get understanding on the issue, which apparently none of the five admins who deleted it have. —Centrx→talk • 17:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Week Overturn - as this redirect is useful and valid and the closure was out of processes. Week because... who cares? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment Technically Ned Scott is correct: WP:USER#How do I delete my user and user talk pages? does contain the text he quotes. it also says "Where there is no significant abuse and no administrative need to retain the personal information, you can request that your own user page and user subpages be deleted" and the clear implication is that such pages are normally deleted on request unless ther is a good reason to retain them, and the primary reson cited is "evidence of policy violations that may need to be kept. which i gather does not apply in this case. The early close was IMO unwise, given that at least one editor was so striongly pushing for retention of this page -- as so often, a speedy clsoe made things worse, not better. But in this case i can't see any likelyhood that a resumption of the MfD would result in the page being kept, so unsually for me endorse, despite improper process. DES (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • A lot of people on the MfD said it should be kept; in terms of numbers it is evenly split and the people saying it should be kept have good reasons to do so, so where are you getting your evaluation of "likelihood"? —Centrx→talk • 17:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • On rereadign the MfD it seems that soem users on both sides of the matter were being rather WP:POINTy about the issue, but it was not as clear as my earlier hasty scan indicated how this would come out. I'll change my view to weak overturn, to let consensus form. I express no final opnion on whether deelting this page is or is not a good thing, i donm't see it as a vital issue either way, and not of the reasons cited at the MfD strike me as showing why it is so important. DES (talk) 19:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorsing this as a matter of course. If there is much more of this disgusting hounding of Cool Cat, as his mentor I'll raise the matter with the arbitrators. --Tony Sidaway 18:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Endorse and I seriously question the motivation of the nominator, who has a history of tensions with the individual in question. bastique 18:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per Thatcher131. Why not afford the user the ordinary courtesy granted to other users? Also, why make an issue of something that really doesn't matter? ElinorD (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Cogny Castries Navarre.jpg

This image was used in the Battle of Dien Bien Phu article (a featured article) to illustrate the three top commanders at the battle. The image was listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 May 7, where it had unanimous consensus to keep it (the nominator not withstanding). User:Howcheng deleted it, claiming "it was never explained in the deletion debate exactly what is so important about this specific image", when in fact that was explained in the previous deletion debate. There is clearly not going to be a free replacement, and the image is necessary to illustrate the commanders at the battle. Also, to respond to Howcheng's question, this specific image is necessary because it illustrates all three top commanders planning their battle plan. Raul654 02:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn. Overwhelming consensus that the image isn't replaceable or decorative, considering the article passed the FA wringer and there was no consensus for deletion at the IfD. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and relist at IfD Whilst I think it exceedingly likely that a consensus will develop at IfD for the image's being kept (and properly so, IMHO), I would suggest that the original IfD ought not only not to have been closed as delete but in fact ought not to have been closed at all (were closure to have been undertaken, no consensus; hence keep would surely have been the appropriate disposition); although the discussion bore out what one would imagine to be all of the relevant arguments, there was not really sufficient participation from which to divine where the consensus of the community lay. Joe 03:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, obviously. Consensus can't trump copyright law. Think about it - suppose Encyclopedia Britanica wanted to use this guy's photo and not pay royalties. His estate (or whoever owns his photos) would sue. Fair use isn't "this looks pretty and I don't feel like paying royalties so I'm going to use it". To use this photo under a claim of fair use, we would need to be offering some kind of critical commentary about the photo itself or a discussion of the topic would not be complete without including the photo. For example, when you see Kent State shootings, you instantly think of the Pulitzer photo. No discussion of that topic is complete without the photo. But this one? There's nothing iconic - it just happens to depic the topic. We cannot use this image under the law. Any consensus to the contrary is invalid. --BigDT 04:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • As a fair use justification, there's no apparent legal issue. Our policy is much stricter than the law for short-sighted, pragmatic reasons, and it seems like a lot of people think this image still makes the cut. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • This image probably does meet our policy. It unquestionably does not pass the legal standard, though. You can't use someone's photo simply to avoid paying them royalties. That's why we don't use news media photos. The fact that this photographer privately sold his photos to books instead of calling himself a journalist changes nothing - we can't use this photo legally without paying royalties. --BigDT 05:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fair use standards are different for nonprofits. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes, that's true, but keep in mind that we have commercial downstream uses. Everything we create needs to be GFDL-compatible and the GFDL permits commercial reuse. If this image would not be legitimate to use commercially without permission, then we can't use it either. --BigDT 13:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • And the policy allows for fair use. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Neither policy nor consensus can trump law. Nobody anywhere outside of Wikipedia would try to use a news media photo under a claim of fair use. It just doesn't make a bit of sense - it is inviting a lawsuit. --BigDT 14:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                • And, again, this is not legally problematic. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                  • How? Saying it doesn't make it so. The fair use doctrine lets us use a screenshot from Star Trek when talking about Star Trek. It lets us quote from Rush Limbaugh when talking about him. It doesn't let us use Joe Schmoe's photograph simply because he happens to have taken a photograph of the subject of the article. If Joe is selling rights to use his photo, then our use of it is infringing on his right under the law to make money from his intellectual property. There are three DRVs right now basically on the same issue and this applies to all of them. I'm going to say it in big letters - FAIR USE IS NOT A LICENSE TO USE COMMERCIAL CONTENT WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. If our policy doesn't adequately recognize that we cannot use these images, then our policy is broken and we need a Jimbo ex Machina or some such thing to fix it. --BigDT 18:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who is the photographer and where is this image sourced to? Kotepho 05:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The source is http://www.indochinawar.com/image3.html. They give the photographer as Georges Boudarel. (See fr:Georges Boudarel.) I don't read French, but from the google translation, it looks like he served with the French during Vietnam and later wrote books critical of the war. The book that published his photo is not one he wrote, so presumably he licensed his photo to them. --BigDT 05:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BigDT, that is one the wrongest statements I've seen in a long time. Fair use IS, under every definition in the law, a license to use commercial content without paying for it under particular circumstances. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
False. Fair use is a defense that you can use in court if you are sued for copyright infringement. No court would ever recognize use of some random news media photo as a fair use. --BigDT 21:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per Raul.  Grue  19:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Fair use is indeed a license to use content without paying for it, or in the face of the opposition of the copyright holder. See Fair use. There are several aspects of the fair use test, and no one of them always controls. One aspect is whether the copyright holder would suffer any economic loss, and that test always considers the commercial market for the work, if any, and how it would be harmed by the use. Another aspect is the amount of the work used. Yet another aspect is "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes". In this case, what wikipedia is doing is commenting on the historical events, events which are depicted in the photo. This makes at least a reasonable claim of fair use, and would for downstream reusers, at least for reusers who are mirrors or forks, even commercial ones. But no fair use claim is ever identical to any other, and unless we remove all images used under fair use claims, any downstream reuser must make an indpendant evaluation or be at risk, at elst theoretically, of suit. This image is no different. DES (talk) 20:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • So why should any AP photographer ever take a picture of a news event? If anyone (including commercial entities) can just use it and call it fair use and refuse to pay royalties, what's in it for the photographer? --BigDT 22:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Becauawe one photo, of an event several decades ago, may be usable under "fair use" by some but not all reusers for some but not all purposes, it does not follow that all news photographs may be reused by anyone at all for any reason whatsoever. Fair use is all about making those distinctions. Also, as a practical matter, most AP photographers are either on salary, or are paid for the inital uses of their photos -- the fraction of their income that comes from reprints 30 years later is effectively zero. If this were a photo of an event last week, the case for fair use would be much weaker, in part because the potential commercial market would be much larger. I again suggest that you read our article Fair use, it explains what the legal rules are at some length. DES (talk) 22:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted our use does not appear to be transformative. There is no critical commentary of this image and it is used soley to identify these people (them looking at a map is not something that needs to be illustrated). Kotepho 22:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from closer: I'd like to point people to the newly rewritten WP:NFCC #8, which I believe is more in line with Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy (full disclosure, I wrote it a week after I proposed it, during which time it received no objections). So with that in mind, since Raul states that the image is required in order to show "all three top commanders planning their battle plan", here's my follow-up question: What information can be gleaned from this picture that can't be adequately explained in words? It's just a picture of some people sitting around a map. howcheng {chat} 23:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - despite my recent rampage through the fields of Wikipedia fair use with a machete, this is precisely the sort of thing fair use is for - David Gerard 00:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hop (drug)

Hop (drug) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

why I think it should be undeleted:

1) Very well documented, including journal articles and OED references. Cited journal articles are not found in the OED reference.

2) While the term is no longer used in contemporary language, it survives in important American literature, such as "THE ICEMAN COMETH" by Eugene O'Neill and "THE THIN RED LINE" by James Jones. Thus, in my opinion it still lives on and is important information to document. When one reads about a "hop dream" or being "hopped up", the context often doesn't give enough information as to the meaning of the term, especially in literature prior to the 1960's when talk of sex and drug use had to be written in less explicit terms.

3) The article content was not *just a definition*. It gives an etymology with references and several examples. Please read the actual content before judging second hand from the AfD note of one person. Moreover, the content was not and is not in wiktionary.

4) Many other slang terms are included in wikipedia: Cracker_(pejorative), White trash, dork. Why do they exist and not this?

Repliedthemockturtle 01:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse deletion. According to the AfD, the article was just a definition, and one that said it was slang for opium. There's no reason given why the AfD was wrong, so... -Amarkov moo! 01:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking a second time, it turns out that I misinterpreted the comment on AfD; it was referring to the Wiktionary article. Could we get this temporarily undeleted for review? -Amarkov moo! 01:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore There is decent content in the article. Even if it is a duplicate of the Wiktionary entry currently, one can imagine some further expansion and at the very least it could survive as a redirect. Pascal.Tesson 14:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore, then expand encyclopedically (if User:Repliedthemockturtle volunteers to maintain non-dicdef content), then relist at AfD for a new consensus on whether it's non-dicdef enough for a Wikipedia article. I can't see the article and its refs (I'm not an admin and Google cache doesn't have it), but I trust the judgment of User:Pascal.Tesson on the content. Wiktionary, besides the two-word description at "hop" number 5, has the phrase hopped up with slightly more content and a sample usage, but no connection to the term's use in twentieth-century literature (William Burroughs is another influential example, cited in Opium). Phrases with the term "hop" also took on significance in jazz and blues that are probably more documented than "just another slang name for a drug". WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a dictionary tells us that

    it may be important in the context of an encyclopedia article to describe just how a word is used to distinguish among similar, easily confused ideas, as in nation or freedom. In some special cases an article about an essential piece of slang may be appropriate.

    If the article and its sources satisfy the AfD's closer that it's more than an expanded dicdef, then it should be relisted. The consensus may or may not find the article to be more than just a minor cultural-linguistics essay. Normally I would expect AfD to reach a decision to merge this into one paragraph in Hop, but that's a disambiguation page with no parent better than this one. It points to Opium but that article doesn't mention "hop(s)" nor "hopped up" nor use in jazz or blues. Barno 16:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A comment on the nominator's point 4: besides the guideline that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason for this article to exist, the other slang terms may or may not have been debated on AfD and found to be "essential" enough or to show well-documented significance that passes WP:ATT. You're free to nominate-for-deletion any of those articles on slang that you don't feel meets the policy WP:ATT or the guideline WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. If you do, check its "AfD history" link first. Barno 16:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment I have doen a temporary undel so that the history is visible to non-admins. DES (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse The AfD was reasoanbel, and the statemetns made there were not inaccurate. no process violations that I can see. However, do not salt, specifially, there should be no bar to creating a new and more encyclopedi article on this topic. allow the history to be userfied if anyone wants it as a basis for such an expanded articele, and if it is used, undelted the history if such an expanded article is created. DES (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment I am not an admin nor an expert on the workings of wikipedia policy, but it seems that it is very easy for an article to be deleted but very difficult to have it reinstated. My main point here is that if precidence (i.e. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) is not a sufficient reason for inclusion of an article, why should we rely so heavily on the decision of the orginal AfD? Shouldn't this be evaluated anew, instead of leaning so heavily on the original AfD decision ('no process violations' seems to me to be a decision based on precidence)? My secondary point is that I see the delete/undelete arguments to be somewhat overtechnical and knee-jerk reactionary ('dicdefs don't belong here') My personal guidelines for inclusion are these: 1) does the article provide (and will it continue provide) useful information to people? 2) is the topic important enough to justify inclusion in an (extensive) encyclopedia on general knowledge 3) is the article factual and researched well? As far as wiktionary versus wikipedia, I think that any article that can benefit from the wiki process of elbaoration and research belongs in wikipedia. A dictionary is a place where people go to look up a definition, not a place to collect extensive etymological knowledge on a word. Take a look on the entry for the term OK. This is a fascinating and useful article on a slang term. It never would have gotten to its current state if it was deemed a dicdef. Lastly, in the spirit of democracy I think it's best to err on the side of including material when at least some segment of the wikipedia community find it useful. What is worse to loose knowledge or to have a little extra trivial knowledge? I lean towards the former being worse. Seems like we have wasted much more time, energy, and disk space on discussing this deletion than if we just executed the 'sin' of leaving the darn (rather harmless) entry in place. These are my thoughts...take them as they are...Repliedthemockturtle 21:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, there doesn't seem much to be said about this, but it seems like it would do fine as a couple sentences in the main opium article, which already uses the term "hop fiend" without much explanation. Why not just redirect and leave the history behind it? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Really, this article was deleted almost 2 and a half months ago. It looks like a dictionary entry and would probably be better served by a mention in a relevant article. Other than that, this is DRV, which reviews process not content (if anyone's forgotten that lately). Process was fine and fair. -Royalguard11(Talk·Review Me!) 23:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, but allow recreation. No problem with the result, and it does read like a dicdef, but that's no reason to disallow a possible better article in its place. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Could someone please explain to a relative beginner what is the practical difference between overturn, and endorse but allow re-creation? DGG 23:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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