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* --[[User:Ruziklan|Ruziklan]] ([[User talk:Ruziklan|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
* --[[User:Ruziklan|Ruziklan]] ([[User talk:Ruziklan|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


[[User:MarkBA|MarkBA]] <sup>[[User talk:MarkBA|what's up?]]/[[Special:Contributions/MarkBA|my mess]]</sup> 08:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)====Discussion (continued)====
====Discussion (continued)====
: ''Previous discussions can be seen in [[/Archive 2]]''
: ''Previous discussions can be seen in [[/Archive 2]]''


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Do we really need some of comments made in this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AElonka%2FHungarian-Slovakian_experiment&diff=209516516&oldid=209484881 summary voting diff]? --[[User:Ruziklan|Ruziklan]] ([[User talk:Ruziklan|talk]]) 18:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need some of comments made in this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AElonka%2FHungarian-Slovakian_experiment&diff=209516516&oldid=209484881 summary voting diff]? --[[User:Ruziklan|Ruziklan]] ([[User talk:Ruziklan|talk]]) 18:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to continue my debate here, I've expected that for my statements a bombardment would follow. Nice, really nice. To repeat, I oppose the guideline as whole because it's totally flawed with many, many mistakes. If it will pass, its effect will equal that one like to the [[Munich Agreement]] or of the [[Vienna Awards]]. And ''everyone'' knows why this guideline even appeared, just don't want to admit it: 1. to shut us up and 2. to give them a legal weapon which otherwise would not be available. Wake up from your dreams. Sorry, but I'm not interested in editing an encyclopedia where a group dictates you must do like this and this, otherwise you'll be jailed. [[User:MarkBA|MarkBA]] <sup>[[User talk:MarkBA|what's up?]]/[[Special:Contributions/MarkBA|my mess]]</sup> 08:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


==Dealing with disruptive editors==
==Dealing with disruptive editors==

Revision as of 08:00, 2 May 2008

Ground rules

This page is an experiment, as part of my (Elonka's) involvement with the ArbCom-designated Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. As I write this, there seems to be a dispute involving Hungarian and Slovakian articles. The dispute is de-centralized, and is taking place in edit summaries, userpages, talkpages, and administrator noticeboards. The dispute seems to involve multiple editors, and some anonymous accounts. Since it is extremely difficult to follow everything that's going on on every page, I have created this central page, and recommend adding a pointer to this page from all the locations of disputes.

I am an uninvolved administrator in this discussion, I have no preference for either side. However, I do insist that:

  • Participants remain civil
  • Edit wars cease
  • Anyplace that an article is reverted, that an explanation either be posted on that article's talkpage, or a pointer be placed on that article's talkpage, which links interested editors to here.

It is my hope that with a centralized point of discussion, that we'll be able to reduce the confusion, and those editors who are genuinely interested in having civil discussions towards determining consensus, will be able to do so.

Please feel free to start any threads here that you want, and invite anyone that you wish.

--Elonka 06:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator boards and other threads

Active threads

(none currently)

Archived threads

Bratislava topics

The Central Europe history is very complicated. Bratislava was parts of Hungary 1000 years, but now it is Slovakia capital.(treaty of trianon) Slovakia's own history is very little.Slovaks wrote Bratislava's history on the wikipedia (Bratislava/history chapter, History of Bratislava, Bratislava Castle) and these articles are very one-sided. Because these topics the Slovak nationalist's guarded area, putting NPOV-templates out to them would cause a serious scandal. A good solution would be later if these articles would receive totally protected status, and neutral administrators (not Slavs) could rewrite this themes.Nmate (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 09:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe all this upheaval at wiki is not about Central Europe's complicated history, but rather about a user not familiar with how Wikipedia works. Despite all the warnings on his/her user talk page, User:Nmate keeps making childish jokes about living persons, saying nasty things about non-Hungarian nations, and attacking other editors. Here are some examples:
  • He/she abused Wikipedia's article to claim that Slovakia's prime minister's "true confession" and "self-criticism looking back on the Fico cabinet's activities" is a 17th-century outlaw.[1] Wikipedia is not a place for political commentaries. Please also note that he/she called an IP a "clone" of an established user and a previous unproblematic version of an article "serious vandalism" in his/her edit summary.
  • He/she makes inappropriate jokes about other editors, calling another user "he Czech lion which defending his Slovak siblings"[2], suggesting that two editors are followers of a neo-Nazi leader Marian Kotleba[3] (this was completely uncalled for and especially disturbing for me as my grand father was in a concentration camp), and calling other people's work "dubious Pan-Slavic propaganda".[4]
  • He/she said: "There is a Hungarian joke that whole Slovakia's only history is possible to send in a short mobile phone's text messsage."[5] Maybe it was supposed to be funny, but it has offended many people here.
  • After being warned agianst hate speech, he/she continued in the same tone: "the important historical events should be there and so Slovak historical event is not exist before the 20th century".[6]
Many people have tried to talk to him/her, but it did not work. All the deleted warnings (up to NPA4 if I remember well) may be found in the history of his/her user talk page. I feel a stronger action is needed to show him/her that Wikipedia has some rules that make our work more efficient and pleasant. Tankred (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As for the first point, he cited a source for the most part. If you don't agree with it, you can modify it. You just removed it, although Prime Minister Fico really talked about Jánosik as a role model which is definitely relevant. Your edit may be criticised just as well.
All other cases happened before a Wikiquette Alerts discussion (26 March) for which he's already been warned, presenting these as new cases is a bit misleading.
Let's not forget how he received some of those warnings. He's a relatively new user, so asking him to read WP:CIV would be OK I think.
Regarding offensive edit summaries someone else has also a thing or two to learn despite being an experienced user. Squash Racket (talk) 17:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For "Bratislava" "(...)has been declared on October 28 in Prague, the leaders of Bratislava (where the majority of the population are Germans or Hungarians, see below) want to prevent Bratislava from becoming part of Czecho-Slovakia and declare the town a free town and rename it Wilsonovo mesto (Wilson City) after US-president Woodrow Wilson.", aaaaand: "(...) Legions on January 1 1919 (only the left river bank; the right river bank, not belonging to Bratislava yet, was occupied only on August 14th). It has been chosen as seat of Slovak political organs over Martin and Nitra]]; the government moved to the city on 4–5 February. On March 27, the town's official new name becomes "Bratislava" - instead of "Prešporok" (Slovak) / "Pressburg" (German) / "Pozsony" (Hungarian)." from History of Bratislava#20th_century - so wherever anyone restored "Bratislava" in pre-March 27 1919 context had falsified history, and highly compromised Wikipedia's credibility, and to say something rude and true to talk about: vandalized those particlular Wikipedia pages. --Rembaoud (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When talking about present day city's history, it's common to use its current name. It's not a falsification of history; it's a matter of convenience. See, for example, London.--Svetovid (talk) 13:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Names

(previous discussions and poll can be seen in Archive 2)

Proposed naming convention

This is a proposed naming convention for places in Slovakia. It is meant to be a specification of guideline nr. 3 (about the use of a name in other articles)) of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Given the long shared history of Slovakia and Hungary, it is desirable to mention both the Slovak and the Hungarian name in several cases. This depends on the (historical) context in which it is used:

  • Between 1000 and 1918: the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)".
    • In biographies of clearly Slovak persons, the name should be used in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively
    • In biographies of clearly Hungarian persons, the name should be used in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively
    • In other cases the order of the names, and which name is used in the rest of the article is arbitrary. If a dispute arises, the name most used in the given context in reliable sources (see WP:NCGN) should be used first, and the other name(s) should be listed in parentheses at the first occurrence
  • Before 1000 and after 1918: use the Slovak name. In biographies of clearly Hungarian persons, or if the place has or had a significant Hungarian population, the Hungarian name should be added, either in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively, or in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively
  • For places that changed name (e.g. Štúrovo was called Parkan before 1948): follow the rules above, but use the contemporary Slovak or Hungarian name as the primary name, and also add the modern name as an alternative. Example: for a biography about a 19th century Slovak from Parkan/Párkány/Štúrovo, use "Parkan (Párkány, present Štúrovo)", and later "Parkan" exclusively
  • For places that have another widely accepted (historic) name in English (e.g. Pressburg for Bratislava before 1919): use that name, and mention the modern name and relevant alternative names at the first occurrence.

The following modifications to this naming convention have been suggested, and are open for voting:

A. Add the language for the alternative names, e.g. "Eperjes (Slovak: Prešov)".
B. Change "Between 1000 and 1918" to "Before 1918", and "Before 1000 and after 1918" to "After 1918"
C. Not only biographies of clearly Slovak and Hungarian persons, but also clearly Slovak and Hungarian organisations and events
D. For "others before 1918": use the modern official name (=Slovak) as the primary name ("Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively), unless it is established (and discussed and documented on the article's talk page) that a different name is widely used in the given context
E. For "after 1918": use Hungarian (or other minority languages) at least once for places with significant Hungarian (or other minority) population. Significant is more than 20% of the population by contemporary census. (the "biographies of clearly Hungarian persons" part is dropped)
F. No distinction between clearly Slovak and clearly Hungarian persons/biographies, all contexts before 1918 (or between 1000 and 1918 if modification B is rejected) are treated like "others before 1918"

Poll

Voting has started at 20:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC), and will continue until 11 May, same time.

Modification A (2-2, 1 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral


Modification B (4-0, 0 ntr):

Support

Yes it does. Markussep Talk 06:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral


Modification C (0-2, 2 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral


Modification D (2-3, 0 ntr):

Support

Oppose

  • What is the "others before 1918"? Btw if it is, what I think, than absolutely no, since this would preserve the status quo, the tons of anachronisms and history inventions, therefore putting this debate into a never ending loop. And do your really think, that this would not mean that in reality that you have to fight to manage "Bratislava" deleted and replaced with "Pressburg" in pre 1918 contexts, not speaking about smaller places? Clear no for keeping this[7] and such debates, or preserving the status quo around the articles. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I advise you to read the proposal again. "Others before 1918" applies to contexts before 1918 that aren't clearly about Slovak or Hungarian persons. If modification "F" is accepted, the "others before 1918" rule applies to all situations before 1918. Anachronisms are properly dealt with in the last two rules of the original proposal. Markussep Talk 06:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Neutral


Modification E (3-0, 0 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral


Modification F (2-1, 2 ntr):

Support

Oppose


Neutral

MarkBA what's up?/my mess 08:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)====Discussion (continued)====[reply]

Previous discussions can be seen in /Archive 2
I’ve come to this “experiment” by chance, but having dealt with this sort of issue before, I’d like to throw in my few halierov.
First, solving naming problems in the intro is easy; solving naming problems in the title is hard. Your convention should explicitly address article naming.
Second, there is a tendency to resolve these issues in a manner that “settles” issues between the contentious parties, but which loses track of the perspective of the reader and of non-specialist editors. Encyclopedias are not written for – and Wikipedia is not (for the most part) written by – subject-matter experts.
  • For the sake of the former, there should at least be an explicit rule that WP:ENGLISH takes precedence where the subject has a traditional rendering of a name in English (in either English-language scholarly usage or popular usage). Hence, “Béla IV”, not “Belo IV”.
  • Where names have formally changed over time, an article should clearly point out the “whens” and “whys” (and perhaps the impacts of the change). This is pertinent to explaining why a redirect got the reader to a “different” article. Certainly no article should become FA without it (where this is relevant) since this is a important part of its history.
  • Arcane rules relying on interpretations such as "clearly Hungarian" and "clearly Slovak" persons (et al) are rather opaque. This is particularly difficult before 1918 given the empire’s efforts to supplant local ethnicities with a more unifying imperial self-identification. It’s also a problem with individuals with multi-ethnic parentage. If these “clearlies” become the rule, then there needs to be a WikiProject (or other resources) identified where editors can go to find such expertise.
Third, in my opinion an historical or biographical article’s usage of place names should give preference to those in contemporary usage for that is the way most reliable sources will employ. E.g., an article on the Kingdom of Hungary or an event or person of that era should reflect the style of “Pressburg (modern Bratislava)” at first mention (as I have just done in Ľudovít Štúr); given the long use of “Pressburg” (or other long-used well-known name – as in the case of Byzantium/Constantiople/Istanbul), a modern source should explicitly mention “Bratislava (formerly Pressburg)”. Fifty years ago, the use of “Pressburg” was still well-understood among the general English-speaking populace, but nowadays it is almost unknown … and we are here to help people to learn.
Hope this helps. Askari Mark (Talk) 16:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Mark, thanks for your comments. The issue we're trying to solve here is not the names of the articles or the alternative names in the leads of the articls, since that's not problematic, and covered by WP:NCGN. Using the English name is the essence of that. This is about what name(s) to use in other articles, that refer to a place in present Slovakia. You'll see that the Pressburg/Bratislava case is specifically mentioned in the proposal above. Markussep Talk 12:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think what really could help here is The Encyclopædia of Geography by Hugh Murray. However its a bit hard to find, since it was printed in 1838 (eighteen-thirty-eight) so just a few copies left... --Rembaoud (talk) 22:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I support the "original" proposal, these ABCD things are just doing confusions. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"confusion" is not the purpose of the modifications, I like to think of them as "refinements" of the proposal. Note that ABCDEF are the results of the discussions above. Markussep Talk 12:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred raises some very valid points. In particular, as per the Constitution, "Slovak is the state language on the territory of the Slovak Republic", regardless of the fact that some regions are Hungarian-speaking. Thus, merely because a Slovak citizen happens to be an ethnic Hungarian (Pál Csáky for instance) does not mean the way we refer to cities he is associated with should change. Mention the Hungarian name in articles on the cities themselves, by all means, but there's no need to clutter up biographies in this way. Biruitorul (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me reassure you: this proposal is not about cluttering articles with irrelevant names. Let's take Pál Csáky as an example: he was born in 1956 in Šahy. According to the proposal as it stands now (without modifications), and assuming he's clearly Hungarian, that means that the Hungarian names of places in Slovakia mentioned in this article should be added. If modification E is accepted, this only goes for places with a significant (for instance >20%) Hungarian population, like Šahy (Ipolyság). Markussep Talk 19:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying Hungarian names are irrelevant - they're in daily use in southern Slovakia. However, despite the fact that Hungarian can be used at the local level, Slovak names alone are official everywhere, and we reflect this in our titles for the articles. To me, Šahy is Šahy is Šahy, and if a Hungarian native wants to call it Ipolyság, a German, Eipelschlag, a Russian, Шаги, or a Martian, Klaatu Bara Nixto, that's his prerogative. However, at least until such time as Slovakia's language law or English-language usage changes, I see no need for a biography of a contemporary Slovak citizen (born decades after Austria-Hungary dissolved) to tell readers what he calls his hometown, a fact easily accessible to interested parties by clicking the link that says Šahy.
By the way, Csáky heads an ethnic Hungarian political party, so I'm pretty sure he's "clearly Hungarian". Biruitorul (talk) 21:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question (and not to sidetrack the discussion, I hope): can we agree to apply roughly whatever solution emerges for Transylvania, or must we then go through another discussion substituting "Romania(n)" for "Slovakia(n)"? I'd add a small proviso - Hungary controlled Northern Transylvania in 1940-44, so I'd use Hungarian names for that period. Vojvodina would be a little different, since Hungarian explicitly has official status there. Biruitorul (talk) 21:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not, this experimental page is explicitly set up, to deal with a very specific dispute as the name of this page also says this is related to Hungarian-Slovakian disputes. If you intend to participate here to influence handling of other issues, please don't this would open a can of worms, as Austrian ,German and various other users might want to follow suit each with their own set of specific articles and problems in mind. This would make this experimental dispute resolution almost certainly fail. Hobartimus (talk) 21:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have been learning that there were some other "experiments" on other ethnic disputes here and there, but called different names. Sometimes it was something like a WikiProject "collaboration", sometimes it was a "cooperation board". I've compiled a list of the ones that I've found so far at WP:WORKGROUP#See also, and (in my free time, heh) would like to take a look at the successes and failures of each, and try to come up with a guideline for new projects which incorporates the best practices of the older ones. If anyone knows of any other of these projects, please definitely add them to the list. And if anyone feels that there's a need for one that doesn't exist yet, by all means make one! Some of those projects were editor-made, not admin-made. You are more than welcome to be bold and start something new.  :) --Elonka 22:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the issues surrounding Hungarians in Slovakia are basically the same as those surrounding Hungarians in Transylvania, I'd say "absolutely not" is a bit strong. And neither the Hungarians of Germany nor those of Austria (.05% of the population) exist in such important numbers, cover such appreciable areas, are as politically organised, etc, as those of Slovakia and Transylvania (again, Vojvodina excepted, but that's different). So if consensus is to stick to Slovakia only, so be it, but that seems rather counterproductive, as the situations are not dissimilar. Biruitorul (talk) 22:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Biruitorul, welcome to the discussion.  :) I've given some thought to this question, in my role as moderator, especially because earlier we chased away from other nationalities that were trying to bring an old dispute here. However, this is different, so my decision is that if someone wants to bring up issues that are not strictly "Hungarian-Slovakian" but do relate to Hungarians or Slovakians in similar situations, they are welcome to do so. If the discussion starts straying too far afield from the scope of this experiment, we can easily move the discussion to its own "experiment" page elsewhere. Which might actually be an excellent way of seeding new such projects!  :) --Elonka 07:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I agree with that principle: let's stay on the Hungary-Slovakia topic here, but keep in mind the results could quite easily inform a new initiative on Transylvania and to some extent Vojvodina: what we discuss on this page will surely be found relevant by editors more interested in Romanian and Serbian issues. Biruitorul (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed guideline is such a total clutter with an obvious POV (excuse my French) that I'm not going to say anything detailed at this time. Especially points 1, 2 and also quite 3 aren't very well thought; e.g. point 2 cannot be taken literally. Modifications C, D, E and F are written in a quite vague language. I'm afraid that if this will enter in force, greater scope of POV edits will be allowed by that and possibly we will open a can of worms. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 13:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(serious question) How about writing up your own set of guidelines? --Elonka 15:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1. I don't have time right now. 2. I don't feel like to start a new game about such topic. 3. My own words above are still valid; let me for example explain what is wrong with point 2: implying a Hungarian name all the way between 1000 and 1918 isn't correct, as although they ruled the whole country, Hungarian started to be an official language only from the 18th/19th century, so implying them in the 11th century is quite incorrect. As sometimes written documents are scarce at that time, it's better to use default than to create a messy mishmash. In any case, so long as the situation is explained, it's never wrong to use default (in this case, Slovak) names all the time, contrary to some claims of "history falsification". MarkBA what's up?/my mess 08:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there are some modifications above that you agree with, and some that you disagree with, please add your name accordingly. You are also free to suggest your own modifications, and/or write a completely new guideline. --Elonka 09:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with MarkBA. 1.Hungarians not ruled the country only but they are native population of the country also.2.Official languages of the country were the Latin and the German, but the Slovak was not at all between 1000 and 1918 3.Many settlements were not Slovak' names before the 20. century.4.There were settlements like their Slovak names changed three times in the 20. century. For example Tornaľa, Šafárikovo, and Tornaľa again or Parkan', Štúrovo, and maybe its name will be Parkan' again.Nmate (talk) 10:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The whole debate seems to be artificially skewed in favour of particular Hungarian editors. The Hungarian language and names were unimportant in writing, among the nobility and among other than Hungarian people, before the 18th century, so I don't see any need to include them specifically in other than subject's article. Maybe they should be included in parentheses when the name is first time mentioned.
And the accusation of canvassing was ridiculous. German and other editors should have a say in this indeed.
It's a common habit to use contemporary names even if we talk about the location in the past when the name wasn't used. Remember, this is an encyclopaedia for everyone. Therefore, using rules that will please a small number of editors but would go against a widespread practice would be a very unwise decision.--Svetovid (talk) 09:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So Britannica is wrong for using Hungarian names, but the guideline WP:NCGN (self-admittedly influenced by Tankred) is right... Squash Racket (talk) 13:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NCGN was created by a high number of respected editors after several years of deliberation. It is applied everywhere in Wikipedia and people in other "hot" regions (such as Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Italy, etc.) are perfectly fine with it. If you want to change it, please go ahead and propose your changes at the convention's talk page. Anyone can do it. If you do not want to change Wikipedia's rules and want to edit Britannica instead, you should perhaps contact its editorial board. For us, Britannica is just one of many sources. It does not determine our policies here. Tankred (talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the countries you mentioned have lost 2/3 of their territory after 1000 years or not.
I also find it funny you talking about "several years of deliberation" and the next moment belittling the 250-year-old Britannica that the very independent and accepted WP:NCGN uses as a means to resolve disputes. Squash Racket (talk) 03:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need some of comments made in this summary voting diff? --Ruziklan (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to continue my debate here, I've expected that for my statements a bombardment would follow. Nice, really nice. To repeat, I oppose the guideline as whole because it's totally flawed with many, many mistakes. If it will pass, its effect will equal that one like to the Munich Agreement or of the Vienna Awards. And everyone knows why this guideline even appeared, just don't want to admit it: 1. to shut us up and 2. to give them a legal weapon which otherwise would not be available. Wake up from your dreams. Sorry, but I'm not interested in editing an encyclopedia where a group dictates you must do like this and this, otherwise you'll be jailed. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 08:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dealing with disruptive editors

Hiya, as part of my ongoing research into this on Wikipedia, I was looking at Wikipedia:Disruptive editing, and I didn't like it much, especially its section on "how to deal with them". So I just rewrote it, effectively tripling it in size. Could you all take a look at it, let me know what you think? This is the set of steps not so much for ethnic content disputes, but for dealing with an editor who isn't an out and out vandal, but is inserting unacceptable information, and reverting anyone who tries to change it: Wikipedia:Disruptive editing#Dealing with disruptive editors. I paid particular attention to adding steps for cases where admins are requested, but aren't responding in a timely manner.

Based on your own experiences, is this now adequate? Do you think it's helpful? Did you learn anything new? Or if it's going to "break", where do you think the weak points still are? Thanks, Elonka 05:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A nice and helpful expansion. But I am afraid two weak points of the procedure are ANI and RfC. We have asked for RfC several times (even repeatedly for the same article) and there was no or only very little and totally random feedback. ANI has been used frequently during Hungarian-Slovak disputes, but generally to no avail. Both reports and defenses have mostly consisted of quote mining and ad hominem attacks and counterattacks. That can obscure even a really serious incident to the point that no administrators are unwilling to take any action in what appears to be a rather messy case. Sometimes, a thread is archived even without any reaction at all. Moreover, there is a tendency to support a new disruptive (or just unsocialized) user if a report against him/her is filed by someone who has enemies here. Conflicts in the past have often spill-overs across seemingly unrelated pages. As far as I can tell, all these problems are more general and not specific to the Hungarian-Slovak edit warring. Finally, it would perhaps help if WP:Verifiability and WP:Cite were emphasized in the welcome template and in Help:Contents/Getting started. Many new users are not familiar with the rules and they do not know they should use reliable published sources. It would also help to reduce the number of policy pages because no new user wants to read dozens of confusing policies, guidelines, and essays. After they actually read the policy pages, some editors think they can use any website as a source. So they go to Google and try to find the keywords supporting their point. I think the policies should favor more explicitly peer-reviewed academic journals, books, and well-known official websites. Tankred (talk) 06:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback. I've been particularly interested in cases where ANI reports are not getting responses. I've been trying to compile a list of all the previous ANI threads up at the top of this page, have I got them all? Or did I miss any? --Elonka 07:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted somewhere, that for some particular users, none of the citations would be good enough, exept theirs. Or being so lame, like that forum (comment) was on the List of Slovaks, I deleted. While it is easy to recognize a forum, it is more hard to get along in the literatue, and actually find out wich sources, books are really biased and wich are just not liked by some user(s). Thats the hardest job, however google search for book+critics are usually giving a helping hand. An on the other hand, when talking about Central-Europe, you should be aware also about the political situation, for example that an anti-hungarian coalition formed in Slovakia after the recent elections, where the Smer social democrats (!) and the far and even the most far right (!) parties joined toghether. You should be aware of Robert Fico and Ján Slota and their agendas, like that ones on Janko's page, and that there's a growing Anti-Hungarian sentiment in Slovakia, wich encourages ultra-extremists to attack or even kill innocents. And you should be aware of other events[8] as well, wich are getting constantly firmly or quietly deleted[9] from here, under a "discrete pandering wink", aka "the not restoring such deleted infos" [10]. Also --Rembaoud (talk) 12:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The best sources, are those which have been recommended by other sources.  :) --Elonka 12:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, political climate has unfortunately partly moved to nationalistic in Slovakia recently, but at the same time substantial part of society voices against it. Thus the society becomes more polarized than before. But what point you try to make by explaining political situation in Slovakia? How is it relevant here? --Ruziklan (talk) 12:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The same society elected them. --Rembaoud (talk) 14:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And your point is? (Note that not everyone voted for them...) --Ruziklan (talk) 14:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see that "substantial part", what you claim that exists. And I forgot to point out the media's "regulation" and constant strafing by the government. And their wish and attempts, including the recenty accepted media law, to turn them in a pretty dictatoric way into "more patriotic" (=less or no critization of the government, and initally propagating whatever stupidity, like "proto-Slovaks" or making Juraj Janosik a hero, they invent). If you do not see, why were these all mentoined or "pointed out", than you have understanded very few of this "experiment page"'s purpose and goals. --Rembaoud (talk) 14:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quite the opposite, I think I understand the purpose and goal of this page very clearly. That is why I am constantly asking what have your explanations to do with e.g. section we are now - "Dealing with disruptive editors" and the purpose of the experiment overall. In my view proven disruptive editors are currently dealt with accordingly and this has nothing to do with their political views, rather with their way of editing and their contributions to the good of Wikipedia. Moreover there are multiple fruitful discussions running on the page with positive results. --Ruziklan (talk) 14:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was, are and will be Lenin people who will agree with whatever current government will be, and try to spread their views on history, people or whatever, for example in Wikipedia. This is called activism, this is how a party or an ideology gains new supporters. No salary, no job, just doing it in free time as a volunteer job. Far right are the most active and agressive in it, and we have a far right government here. It is almost essential to know what are their current topics and "agenda" to identify them and their spreaders. With this knowledge, we can cut these "propaganda" out and monitor those users to prevent further additions, therefore making those articles affected more neutral, and Wikipedia a better place. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Rembaoud, I think this is not the proper place to discuss the internal political situation in Slovakia. Nevertheless, I also have the feeling that "Prince Pribina", "Great Moravians with healthier teeth than modern people", "Principality of Nitra located on the territory of Slovakia" have become part of the self-definition of several Slovakians, but this does not mean that they cannot be true. However, I believe that if reliable sources prove that Pribina was never styled prince, medieval people's teeth were generally healthier than ours and the "Principality of Nitra" never existed, their self-definition will gradually change. Or, it is also possible that reliable sources will unanimously prove that Pribina was actually the Prince of Nitra and non-believers in Hungary will have to accept the existence of the "Principality of the (proto-)Slovaks". I think if non-fanatics of both side were in the position to realise that their knowledge of the "facts" of history may easily be challanged by reliable sources, they would begin to think independently. Borsoka (talk) 19:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Borsoka, if you want to challenge published peer-reviewed anthropological research about the teeth in Great Moravian graveyards, you are welcome to write and publish your own work. But Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for it. Please provide evidence (meaning a reference to a source of the same quality as the one used in the article) for your claim that this published anthropological research is somehow flawed or stop questioning the well-sourced information. If it is you and your interpretation of medieval chronicles against a large body of academic literature, this discussion will never end. You have mentioned "reliable sources". Please name them, so we can talk about something substantial instead of abstract thoughts about how "fanatics" interpret history. Tankred (talk) 03:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tankred, if you read my remark above carefully, it clearly (in bold) states that even the theory that "Great Moravian people with healthier teeth than modern people" may be true. Actually, I accept the concept that their teeth were healthier. Sorry, I do not want to offend your feelings and I do not want to delete or change the sentence from the article Great Moravia. I think this is a remarkable part of the article and it will probably induce not only me but other readers to mediate on the other facts described in the article. Borsoka (talk) 19:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, I must have misunderstood your words. By the way, thank you for expanding the Alternative theories section. I am happy that section is no longer a stub. There is also another very recent issue regarding whether Great Moravia "disappeared without a trace". Since you seem to be familiar with the Hungarian historiography, I will greatly appreciate your opinion at Talk:Great Moravia#New_addition. If this is really a dominant view of the Hungarian historiography, I am sure you (or some other Hungarian editor) will be able to find more reliable sources than the website added by Squash Racket. Since Great Moravia is a Good Article, it would be nice to maintain a high level of quality of the cited sources (meaning books and peer-reviewed academic journals, and in English whenever possible). Tankred (talk) 06:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Magyar Tudomány" is the official journal of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, I think reliable enough for Featured Articles (not just GA) until there are not enough English language academic sources. The article is full of Slovak/Czech sources that you never seem to question for some reason. Squash Racket (talk) 10:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that too, I am just trying to help identifying those "fanatics" by pointing out their favorite topics. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have reliable sources claiming something else than what is in the article, you can add the info and the references as an alternative. This doesn't mean you have to delete the ones that are in the article (if those statements are also properly sourced). This way several points of view can be presented. Squash Racket (talk) 13:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Report card

I have started a thread at the Administrators' noticeboard: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Hungarian-Slovakian experiment, where I am explaining my experiment here, and asking for input from other admins. It is my concern that the experiment may be getting too "radical" for the wiki-culture, and I don't want to be overstepping my authority.

If anyone here as part of the experiment would like to offer feedback on how I'm doing, and whether or not you would like to see this experiment continue, or whether you think that it should be shut down, you are welcome to post in that thread. I do recommend that you identify yourself as a non-admin participant who is offering an opinion.

This is your opportunity to give me (and this experiment) an initial "grade". Has the experiment been helpful? Has it made things worse? Should it continue? All feedback is encouraged. Thanks, Elonka 12:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an admin, but I do have some feedback and thoughts. In short, you're doing alright and are to be richly commended for your initiative and innovation! Frankly, as a matter of human – and wiki – nature, it does do some good to knock heads together, especially hot-heads. The use of blocks is not supposed to be punitive but to get the attention of such hot-heads as to their activities being disruptive and thereby unacceptable on Wikipedia. The normal blocking process is to warn, block, ignore-until-disruptive-again. That passive approach often fails because there's rarely anywhere (or anyone) for them to go to to learn how to work productively. Yeah, you can direct them to policies and guidelines ad nauseum (which are often changing and in many cases unclear to non-native English speakers), but a working example serves as a much better teacher. That's why the Sri Lanka Reconciliation project has been a such a blessing in minimizing (though far from eliminating) disruption on articles in a contentious subject.
IMO what has been key to its relative success has been its ability to coopt parties from the various sides into a working agreement which the "leaders" among each contending POV help to instill among their compatriots, current and newbie. Often, an issue arises because one side doesn't feel its view is being addressed or respectfully addressed; getting them to work through it with others of differing POVs, while frustrating, is a practical self-tutorial on compromise and collegiality. Once they've worked through to a modus vivendi, they become reluctant to continue fighting "the never-ending battle" and have something of their own to defend so that they can concentrate on more productive editorial work.
The issues here are nowhere near as contentious as with Sri Lanka, so I think this effort will work out fine. Your bringing in some editors experienced with what works and doesn't work in resolving these matters should speed it up. All-in-all, I think it's a good initiative toward reducing disruption in areas of serious contention. "Knocking heads" is good as long as it brings the parties to the discussion and negotiating table – it assumes good faith, but recognizes the value of a bucket of cold water. Where it would become problematic would be if the admin(s) doing such knocking also involve themselves in forcing the path of the negotiations or subsequently in enforcing the measures against any recalitrant parties. The latter should be dealt with by uninvolved admins. (After all, disruption is disruption.) Askari Mark (Talk) 16:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Previous dispute resolution

I've been trying to compile a list of all the previous administrator board threads, and the list just keeps on going and going. Today I even learned that there was an attempt at filing an ArbCom case a few weeks ago.

To save time, could folks please tell me if there's much more of this? Were there RfCs? Attempts at mediation? Which articles were they on? Thanks, Elonka 15:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I filed two RfCs that I can recall now. Squash Racket (talk) 04:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nitra

Can someone please provide a summary of the disputes at these articles? I understand that one side feels that the Principality of Nitra, and its Prince Pribina, was a historical fact, and the other side feels that the Principality is "alleged" or "supposed", but what's the core issue here? Why is there so much doubt about the existence of the Principality, that people are willing to edit-war about it? How does it tie in to the Hungarian/Slovakian disputes? --Elonka 05:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the alleged "Principality of Nitra" is the medieval equivalent to Slovakia. The mainstream Slovakian view is that the (proto-)Slovaks lived on nearly the same territories where modern Slovakia is located and they established a flourishing medieval state (e.g, they suppose 30 cities in the "Principality" while the Moravians only had 15 towns); the "Principality of Nitra" was united with Moravia in 833 forming Great Moravia, but the "Principality" remained an autonomous territory within the empire, moreover, it reserved its autonomous status within the Kingdom of Hungary till 1108. I think, from Hungarian point of view, the existence of the "Principality" is only a question of fact: it does not harm the self-reputation of any Hungarian. However, some aspects of the "Principality of Nitra" may be provocative or ridiculous for men-of-the-street in Hungary. E.g., the theory of a "Slovakian Empire in the Middle Ages" would possibly result in laughing in Hungary, while the statement that King Stephen I of Hungary defeated Koppány, the leader of the pagan Magyars, not only with the help of his wife's German retinue but also with the assistance of (proto-)Slovaks would be provocative. My feeling is that the edit-war about the issue is only question of wording: for Slovakian editors the existence of the "Principality of Nitra" is an unquestionable fact. They have been learning from childhood that huge number of written sources and other evidences prove that a flourishing state of the (proto-)Slovaks existed in the 9th century; therefore, any question regarding the existence of written sources may hurt their convinction. If you read the debate among Slovakian editors on the talk page of Nitra, you will probably understand that it is a sensitive issue. Borsoka (talk) 20:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although I am no historian, I think a few points should be rectified from a viewpoint of Slovak man-of-the-street.
As far as I remember my school years we never learned about Principality of Nitra as state of Slovaks, rather as state of (some) Slavs.
Further I remember nothing like "nearly the same territories where modern Slovakia is located" regarding Nitra principality and therefore I doubt it is mainstream Slovakian view. But may be.
Lastly, I see there are some historians (and more politicians) desperately trying now to show significance of Slovaks in the past and use that as a ground for their current day claims. However it is wrong to present them as the exclusive Slovak view and by showing their contradiction with facts to cast doubt also to other opinions (edits here) of Slovaks, even if this could be purely coincidental and inadvertent.
That is something that bothers me personally the most in recent disputes (or often just edit wars). --Ruziklan (talk) 21:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes this is very significant, thank you for your comments, and the insight into the school system, it would be useful to know when was this type of teaching in effect and if, or how the practice changed to the present day Fico-Slota government. Hobartimus (talk) 21:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your remarks. My comments were based on remarks made by Slovakian editors on talk pages connected to the History of Slovakia. E.g., for them King Stephen's refuge from Koppány to the Slavs is a "basic fact", while it is a surprise for a Hungarian. As to the territory of the "Principality of Nitra", I refer to the map in the article Great Moravia demonstrating a huge territory marked with red as the territory of the principality. If it contradicts to the mainstream view in Slovakia, it should be clearly adressed on the article's talk page. Borsoka (talk) 04:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there something about Nitra that is making it high profile in current events? Was it referred to in a popular speech or book or magazine article? I'm still trying to understand why the name of a 9th century entity would even be coming up among "men on the street"? Is it because of the Hedvig Malina incident, or something else? --Elonka 20:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that some high profile politicians connected to Slovak government (to say it very lightly) have recently come with statements about old Slav or even old Slovak history that are not very well grounded in historic studies (again to put it lightly). There are quite wide efforts to move similar claims to schoolbooks etc. As I have remarked above not everyone in Slovakia is happy about these efforts and it is currently a matter of debate. It is not directly related to Hedviga Malinová issue, but both issues have some nationalism behind. The fact is that nationalism got some momentum in Slovakia since Slovak National Party became a coalition party about two years ago, while Party of the Hungarian Coalition was in the previous two coalitions (i.e for 8 years...)
On the other hand, as Borsoka has remarked above, principality of Nitra and prince Pribina are taken as historic facts by standard history in Slovakia since long time ago and manifold references to both may be found in all kinds of history publications, both scientific as well as popular. --Ruziklan (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ruziklan described it almost perfectly. Slovakia wants to build her own identity since becoming independent. Some try to do it in a modern, normal, European way, as it should, while others want it in a 19th century style nation state building way, like creating 1000-1500 years of history using some "different/alternative interpretations" and/or "minor ministerpretations" at large, or sometimes simply by claiming or inventing something. This aim is often ridiculed at Hungary by for example what Nmate wrote (Slovakia's full history can be sent in a short text message). While obviously Slovakia has a bit longer history, than a text message, it is obviously not as long as our beloved Janko & Anna and their comrades wants. --Rembaoud (talk) 12:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be worthwhile to actually document some of the claims, in a neutral way. For example, if many politicians are repeating a claim (even if the claim is not true), we can still include the claim on Wikipedia, as long as we're careful and neutral about how we phrase it. For example, if all of the politicians were claiming that the moon was made of green cheese, we could say, "In 2008, some politicians such as (names) have been stating (quotes). Some of these statements have been repeated in (sources). However, mainstream historians such as (names) in (academic sources) say (different quotes)." The key is whether something is a "significant" view. If there's a significant view about something (even if it's wrong), it's okay to include it on Wikipedia, as long as (1) we include the sources; and (2) the views are provided in the proper proportion, per WP:UNDUE. Note that "significant" has to be defined carefully and with good judgment. For example, if one guy puts something in a self-published book but no one repeats it, that's not very much weight. However, if a major politician said something repeatedly as the major thrust of his speeches, that might qualify. --Elonka 15:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

uploading pictures from newspapers

How (under what licence) can I upload any picture from a newspaper? I got confused in the labirynth of this, and when I eventually clicked on one of them, it disappeaser and I had to choose one from a list wich had many new things, the description did not... --Rembaoud (talk) 14:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely right, image licensing on Wikipedia is a nightmare. The basic rule of thumb is, that unless you personally own the picture, meaning you took the photo yourself, you probably can't upload it. There are a few exceptions to this, but they basically boil down to: (1) If you know who owns the copyright, and they give written permission to upload the photo under a free license; or (2) Some images are considered so rare, or impossible to get a free copy of, that they can be used under what's called "Fair Use". In the case of a newspaper photo, this would probably have to mean that it was either of something that happened very long ago, or was of an event that was very newsworthy, and a photo was essential to adequately describe it. But trust me, there are teams of admins who do nothing but scan for "bad license" pictures, and delete them, aggressively. Photos are uploaded to Wikipedia in the thousands, and they are deleted in the thousands.
Bottom line: Which photo? I'll take a look and let you know if there's a possible fair use exception. But the answer will probably be no. --Elonka 14:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are some pictures about Daniel Tupy on the net, for example: [11]. If I find a "normal" one, and I'd like to upload it (or for whatever else I'd like to illustrate), under wich licence (and how)? --Rembaoud (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You need a photo that is under a free license, meaning it's in the Public Domain, or can be used under GFDL or CC-by-SA. You might want to check Flickr, because often there are photos there which are free to use. Or, contact the photographer and ask if they're willing to give permission for the photo to be used. You may also wish to contact Tupy's family directly. --Elonka 15:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks --Rembaoud (talk) 17:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comparisons

While reading articles connected to the history of Slovakia (i.e., Great Moravia, History of Slovakia, I realised that they usually contain(ed) a sentence that make a comparisons. E.g., statements similar to the following:

  • "there were 30 towns in the Principality of Nitra; note that there were only 11 towns in the Principality of Moravia";
  • "the diocese of Saint Method was the first archbishopric established in Slav region; note that the archbishopric of Prague was only funded much later".

Is it possible to complete such statements in a way like that "there were 30 towns in the Principality of Nitra; note that there were only 11 towns in the Principality of Moravia, there were only ... towns in ...., but there were ... towns in ...";", or "the diocese of Saint Method was the first archbishopric established in Slav region; note that the archbishopric of Kiev, Gniesno, Prague, Moscow, Cracow, Zagrab were only funded much later, and also note that archbishoprics for Latin, German and Eastern territories were established much earlier."? Borsoka (talk) 06:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Fico

Some stuff had been eventually [12] deleted from the page, after a short "debate" if we can call that[13] that. I would be really intrested where should the parts about Fico's relationship with the Slovak media should be moved from Robert Fico article. Someone please revert Ruziklan and put fact tags at the end of those sentences, asap I'll change them into english sources. --Rembaoud (talk) 17:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some to read in english:[14], [15], [16], [17], --Rembaoud (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rembaoud, you are welcome to edit the article and add information which comes from sources. A "revert" would be if you just put the information back without sources. However, if you add the information back with sources, that's not a revert, that's "improving the article". Please proceed. --Elonka 20:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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