Talk:Professional

I think there should be some sort of reference to the word "Professional" as a buzzword; pretty much every occupation / job / vocation I encounter nowadays lavishly flaunter the word "professional". Of course everyone is interdependent, and specialised in the economical sense; but does that make them a "professional" just because they claim to be? I think in the 21st Century this word is just devolving into yet another buzzword. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.80.123.34 (talk) 00:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

This definition clearly needs to include the Professional Engineer which indeed by law is a profession practiced in everystate. It is the equivalent of a MD or DO in Medical, hence the PE must be added.

This was added.....

I also would comment that there are only 5 true professions, Medical, Law, Accounting, Architecture, and Engineering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.16.170 (talk) 11:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

A paragraph about professional conduct should be added.

Profession Defined

This article is deeply flawed because it does not recognize the distinction between a legal profession (of which one is a professional) and the "title inflation" that lets just about anyone call themselves a professional. It should be tied to Profession and therefore recognize there are only a limited set of occupations in which one may be considered a "professional". Some key criteria are: (a) a published set of professional ethics (b) state licensing criteria, and (c) a regulatory body that can sanction and even remove one's license. SunSw0rd (talk) 13:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree.

"a professional (doctoral) level degree - a physician or lawyer or so on." is a moronic statement. I've never seen a requirement for a Professional Engineer to obtain even a master's. Experience, passing qualifying exams are more important in becoming a PE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.120.202 (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Currently, the definition is a collection of opinions about what a professional "should be".

Worst of all is 7. "Reasonable work moral and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism." As a source it uses Merriam Webster's definition of "professionalism", which just describes it as "the conduct, aims, or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person".

It really sounds like this definition is an excuse for someone to get on their no true Scotsman soapbox.

We should stick to definitive sources of what a professional is -- government definitions, accepted marketing terminology, so forth, possibly describing varying interpretations of how one would define a professional. We might as well exclude dictionaries as a source altogether. A dictionary is not going to have the level of detail needed to explain the complexity of the term with the level of detail appropriate for this article.

I'm not equipped to repair the problem, but I will insist on preserving the NPOV tag until something is done. 203.219.209.183 (talk) 08:13, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Sports professionals

I see no reason for this deletion. John Reid 14:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

So then wikipedia is incorrect to call Wayne Gretzky, John Elway, and Michael Jordan professional athletes; none of them have doctorates. Should we modify those pages? This would also make wikipedia's page on Professional Sports completely wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_sports

Wikipedia needs to be professional

We need information about the professionalism of Wikipedia.

That really is not the place for it. MadMaxDog 05:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

reverting to remove professional categories

MadMaxDog, I am unhappy that you have removed these categories, which do indeed fit the definition. Social Workers and and Nurses are self-regulating (at least in the UK and I believe in a range of other countries). I am even more concerned that you have used revert which should really be reserved for vandalism

"Do not simply revert changes that are made as part of a dispute. Be respectful to other editors, their contributions and their points of view. Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Wikipedia, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate unless, and only unless, you as an editor possess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. Mere disagreement is not such proof. See also Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith."

In the spirit of these guidelines I have not reverted your revert, but would like to persuade you that these catagories should be reinstated" Markoc 15:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I guess you are right. I was likely acting too fast while going through my watchlist late at night.

However, I somewhat disagree with your comment as to the use of reverts. Many, many, things get changed on articles which are clearly wrong or inappropriate or so badly sourced that they should not be in there. It is NOT good behaviour to simply let this stand in all cases, 'pending resolution'. You end up with articles that, at best, grow and grow with 'citation needed' tags. Sometimes, where possible, I do the research to clear it up, and in all cases I try to accompany my revert with explanations why. I also often (but admittedly not nealry always) explain my revert on an editor's talk page. Finally, I also see other people often use reverts on dubious (as opposed to bad-faith or vandalism) edits all the time, and will continue to do so. Cheers, MadMaxDog 23:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Definition

The wording of the first part of the criteria in this section seems very insufficient for defining a profession. ("Criteria to include following categories: 1. Highest Academic Qualifications ie University College/Institute.")

How is "Highest Academic Qualifications" defined?

What is "highest" when there may be competing standards?

Does this imply that a person who may have a degree which is on a path to a further degree (for example, an MBA degree which can be followed by a PhD means that a person who obtains an MBA is not a professional because an MBA is not the "highest" academic qualification?

I feel this portion of the article needs to be reworded and is misleading to readers. — Mmathu (talk) 09:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Surely a proffesional is a person sho gets paid to do something? i.e. professional sports people are those who get paid to play their cosen sport and workmen who get paid?

I alsways believe that in the UK the term is used say when letting property 'no DHSS people'

Has anyone ay other ideas? Franny-K (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Both meanings are given in my dictionary. I've taken out the word "highest." Sunray (talk) 14:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

What we are dealing with here essentially is the definition of Social Economic Status or SES. The modified hollingshead scale of social position is as follows: Professional – Doctoral level Degree (MD, D.O., PhD or equal) 1 Graduate Level Degree (MBA, MA, MS) 2 Four-year college graduate (BA, BS, BM) 3 One to three years college (also business schools) 4 High school graduate 5 Ten to 11 years of school (part high school) 6 Seven to nine years of school 7 Less than seven years of school 8 Less than five years of school 9 No Education 10

The word professional in the truest sense of the word means someone who has a professional (doctoral level) degree - a physician or lawyer or so on. The term professional has become mainstreamed and used to imply white collar working person or commercial such as in the case of a commercial athlete compared to an amateur. Just because someone is getting paid to do a job does not make him or her a "professional". Also the word professional has become confused with expert. Many experts are professionals, but the words are not interchangeable. So the basic idea here is that a profession is a number one on the hollingshead scale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.190.59 (talk) 06:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

This is purely based on the United States. In the UK Law is an undergraduate degree, as is Medicine... (Not to mention that 'College' is called 'University' and BAs are not normally four years...)

Clergy, school teachers and other lesser paid jobs would all be considered professional by a more traditional definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.55.52.2 (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The 'doctoral' definition of professional is problematic. Doctors and lawyers in Australia currently qualify with a bachelors degree, very few have doctoral level degrees. By the provided definition they are not professional. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.186.1.188 (talk) 23:48, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It's nonsensical Bull, I suggest you look up "professional Engineer, no requirement above a BS, experience, passing qualifying exams. PE's are people designing buildings, bridges, etc., licensed to ensure public safety . BTW Getting an MBA is more prestigious in comparison to a BA in business, but it's not any more professional than a masters in sculptng. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.120.202 (talk) 14:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Situation in Britain

In Britain, there is such a thing as a "Royal Charter". Professionals belong to institutions which confer "chartered status". This is a high level of professionalism (backed by the Queen!) but is only partly related to academic progress.

professional degrees

First professional degrees Accountant (BAcy, MAcc, MAcy, MSAcy) Acupuncturist (LAc, DAc, AP, DiplAc, MAc) Architect (B.Arch, M.Arch) Architectural engineer (B.A.E, M.A.E) Attorney at law (J.D., LLB, BCL) Audiologist (BSc, AuD, or MS) Biotechnologist (BSc, BS, or ALM) Clergy (MDiv, STB, STL) Chiropractor (DC, DCM, BChiro, or MChiro) Counselor (MA, MS, M.Ed) Dental hygienist (BSDH, BSc, BOH, RDH) Dentist (DMD, BDent, DDS, BDS, BDSc, BChD, CD, Cand.Odont., Dr.Med.Dent. etc) Educator (BA, BEd, BME, BSE, BSocSc, BSc) Engineer (registered) (BE, BEng, BSE, BSc, BASc, or BAI) Forester (BSF, MF) Health administrator (MHA, MPH) Information scientist (MSIS, MSIM) Lawyer (LLB,JD) Landscape architect (BLA LArch), (MLA LArch) Librarian (MLIS, MLS) Minister (Christian) (BD, STB, BDiv, MMin, MDiv) Naprapath (DN) Naturopath (ND, NMD, BSc, BHSc, BNat) Nurse (BSN, BNurs, BScN, BSc, RN) Occupational Therapist (MSOT, MAOT, MOT, OTD, Dr.OT) Optometrist (OD, B.Optom) Osteopath (BOst, BOstMed, BSc(Osteo)) Pharmacist (BPharm, BScPhm, PharmB, MPharm, PharmD) Physical therapist (BSc, BSPT, MSPT, DPT, or DPhysio) Physician or Surgeon: (MBBS, MBChB, MBChB, BMed, Dr.med, Dr.MuD, MD, MDCM, Cand.med, DO, etc) Podiatrist (DPM, DP, BPod, PodB, or PodD) Practitioner of oriental medicine (BSc, MSOM, MSTOM, or DOM) Psychologist (PsyD, ClinPsyD, LicPs.) Social worker (BA, BSc, BSW, MA, MSc, or MSW) Urban planner (MUP, MCP, MRP, MTP, MPlan, MUEP, MPl, MES) Veterinarian (DVM, VMD, BVS, BVSc, BVMS, etc.) A first professional degree is generally required by law or regulation to practice the profession without limitation, but is not necessarily sufficient to enter that profession. An advanced professional degree provides further training in a specialized area of the profession. Below are some examples of advanced professional degrees.

[edit] Advanced professional degrees Computer Science (PD) ( see Columbia University [7] ) Dental Science (DDSc, Dr.Odont) (advanced degree in countries that award a bachelor degree in dental surgery as first professional degree, usually awarded for outstanding research to a particular field of Dentistry) Dentistry (MS, MSc, MDS, MDSc, MSD, MDent, MMSc, DMSc, or DClinDent) (these are usually granted at the culmination of a specialty training program in dentistry in those programs that also require research and a thesis to be completed) Divinity (DD or DMin) Education (MPS, EdD or DEd) Engineering (MEng,EngD,MASc,MMSc) Medicine (MD, DO, DM) (advanced degree in countries that award a bachelor degree in medicine or surgery as first professional degree, usually awarded for outstanding research to a particular field of Medicine) Ministry (MTh, ThM, STM, STD, DThP, DPT, PrD, or DMin) Nursing (CNS, CRNA, DNP, MSN) Public Policy and Public Administration (MPP, MPA, MPAff) Psychology (PsyD, MSc, MPs, DPs, Ph.D) Science (MS, MSc) (also offered in medicine, dentistry, and pharmacy) Social Science (DSocSci, MASP) Surgery (MS, MSurg, MCh, ChM, or MChir) (Usually granted after completion of surgery training program in conjunction with a research thesis) Worship Studies (DWS) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.120.202 (talk) 14:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)