Talk:Hangman's knot

Instructions?

I was about to write this then decided maybe we should not describe here how to tie this. Hmph. --Justfred

Some would say that's stifling the free interchange of information. But anyway... This article could certainly do with fleshing out. It doesn't stand well on it's own. Darac 21:57, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I also believe there is absolutely no reason to leave out information. My memory tells that there are actually two versions of the knot. One can be pulled open and another one can not. The non-opening version can be pulled tightly shut in order to make a very convenient throwing weight for an end of any rope of suitable thickness. --blades 01:48, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

The article seems to have improved. The thirteen turns sounds like one of those things that people keep adding to myths and stories to make them seem more mystical. Then again, maybe it is something people would really have done to make the event seem more mystical. I am not a hangman, so I can't tell for sure :) --blades 09:42, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Name change

I believe the correct name for this knot is the "Hangman's knot". A noose is the simplest kind of running knot. - From the Morrow guide to knots. ISBN 0-688-01226-4

thirteen loops

I thought a Hangman's noose traditionally had thirteen loops. Is this not true?

Pud 01:40, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Each additional loop adds friction to the knot, so you adjust the number of loops according to how easily you want the knot to slide, and depending on the type and condition of the rope. 7 loops is the normal way of tying this knot (for natural rope), while 13 loops makes the knot look rather ugly (very elongated on most ropes) and a bit more unstable as the knot itself starts to bend.

I'll write some more on the main page if nobody minds, as there are "significant non-infringing [to life] uses" of the knot, and lots of history, politics and intregue to write about. Ojw 19:18, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From what I've seen (looking at old photos), there actually are 13 loops. It makes sense, as people have always been superstitious. ~ Wakanda's Black Panther! (contribs) 01:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Only hearsay I'm afraid but I have heard that it was 13 for a normal man, 15 for a stout one - possibly due to the fact that a lot of pressure can cause the "locking" loop at the top to be pulled through the other loops, runing the knot - Excuse the layman terms Basiclife (talk)

Not dangerous?

User:64.40.45.208 wrote "There is nothing intrinsically dangerous about the hangman's noose itself.". Howabout its tendancy to shut easily and not open? Ojw 19:23, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think, for the sake of pretty much everyone, and whatever credibility Wikipedia might have, this article would be better off without a "Tying it" section.

It's been discussed as whether or not to give instruction on tying the knot, because it might be dangerous. I really don't see any danger here. If someone's to kill themselves or someone else, they probably won't search Wikipedia. Besides that, instructions on how to tie one would give a good visual on what they look like and how they work/worked. Seems to me the real danger lies in the "just under the left ear" bit, because it "does the job" instantly. This article probably ought to be re-written, with instructions on the knot(or a good picture) added. But that's just my opinion. ~ (Wakandas black panther 06:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

Unfortunately, I think how to tie it should be listed as I hate the idea of hiding the facts (especially when there are thousands of sites demonstrating the knot available). I would, however, suggest that it may be worth adding some sort of warning/disclaimer tag. Something like : Warning! This knot can tighten easily and should not be used on a human as serious injury/death can result (Ok, it's late and I'm tired but you get the point) Basiclife (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I just came to Wikipedia to look on how to tie this knot and was disappointed that such knowledge is hidden. I am going to hang myself now (I found how to tie knot on: http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/hangmansnoose.html and http://www.metacafe.com/watch/285151/hangmans_knot/), because I don't want to live in a world where knowledge in encyclopedias is filtered... ;( ~ (Hangman 17:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.26.103 (talk)

I doubt anyone who has had a relative or a friend hang themselves would have made that joke. George 137.111.47.29 (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think how to tie this knot should be included. That's what I came here to find out (to repair a Cleudo piece, of all things). There seems to be a consensus on this (5 for, 2 against, several people who have commented on this topic but not expressed a definite view either way on this talk page) , and there's already a picture that tries to show it, so pretty soon I'm going to add it in text.

Incidentally, I have edited the comments in this section just to properly indent them. Previously it looked like Wakandas black panther also wrote the comment above theirs, and hence they appeared to change their mind in mid-comment. Lessthanideal (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact is, most every boy knows how to tie this knot. When I went through Army training, in the rope practice sections the instructor warned us. "When getting your bowlines ready for inspection, I don't want to see any examples of 'The Hangman's Knot'. We are here to test all knots made, so maybe we'll test that one!" They were kidding, of course. I'm pretty sure. But the point is, they had obviously run into it before, thus the warning.

As it happened, I learned it in the fith grade; it was not part of the school curriculum, tho (g). Some bits of knowledge just have inherent interest. So, I vote against a ban; it is not liable to lead to a rash of hangings and Wiki would be shutting the stable door, anyway. 76.191.135.66 (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Other uses

I added a section on other uses. Basically a "hangman's knot" is the same as fishing's uni knot. I was going to give directions on tying it on the uni knot page, but wondered if maybe I should remove the other uses section that I put in with the link to the uni knot page for all the reasons listed above.

Isn't it so that when you tie a uni knot and pull it tight you get:

Loose end - straight - winding - straight - loop - straight - main rope

Whereas the hangman's knot goes like:

Loose end - winding - straight - straight - loop - straight - main rope

So I don't think they're quite identical. 82.139.87.182 (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

History

Is there a reason why the line "this knot was offten used to kil slaves and people that were accused of being a witch. They would have the knot around your neck and make you stand on a deck then they would push you off causing the tightness of the rope to beak your neck" is there? It seems rather pointless as a) the spelling is poor, b) its pointing out a specific use when the actual use was more general (i.e. not just slaves and witches, also used from horse back), and c) it's preceded by the line "The Hangman's Knot was used on ropes in Colonial America as well as England during the 17th and 18th centuries as a way to execute condemned people easily. The knot would break a person's neck if tied correctly, otherwise the person was simply left to strangle to death."

If there is feel free to revert it, otherwise I removed this bit of repitition. 01:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Copyright?

Most text is directly copied and the rest just a re-written version of http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/hangmansnoose.html

Rope length

Is their not a formula to calculate the length of the rope considering the weight of the person? I think this is relevant information that should be added.

Yes, there is. But it's not relevant to the knot, only to the practice of hanging which is where it's referenced. RedHillian 00:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

13 Loops Legality

I had never heard before reading this article that 13 coils in the noose is believed by many to be illegal. Regardless of its legality, does anyone have have any research/proof/links demonstrating if it is truly legal or not? Snopes has nothing, and the only thing I can find online is some poor soul commenting on a MetaCafe video, claiming that most states banned it sometime after 1957. --LoganK 19:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I would like a citation too on that.

I'm afraid I have no reference but have been sailing for years and have heard from a large number of people that 13 loops was illegal - However, I have to admit that as noone here can find any hard references, I'm more and more inclined to believe it's a myth. Basiclife (talk)

striking force

additional striking force to the back of the neck? is that even significant? seems like it needs a citation Cannibalicious!

Your MoM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.47.187.99 (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

gee, that was helpful, an irrelevant insult to the mother. 68.36.214.143 20:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

A couple of Comments

JayMill 04:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)The neck-breaking force is due to the twisting motion. Noose's are never placed directly behind the neck, always off to the side, so as you drop, it swivels, placing pressure transversely on the cervical vertebrae. The C-section of the spine twists, severing the spinal column. Thus, death. I was always told it was tied with 13 knots, however in practice, its nearly impossible to do so with a thinker rope. What bothers me is the title. The hangman's knot was typically used for strangulation hangings, where the noose was used for dead-drop hangings. I just wanted to add that, it's your call.

Isn't it ideally placed in front, swiveling to the left side upon drop? I believe that info comes from Geo Stone's book. And what's the source for claiming that the hangman's knot was for strangulation hangings?!? 68.83.72.162 (talk) 14:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

AKA parade knot

The knot is also known as a “parade knot”. It was used by the US Calvary (and other horse units) when they were leading their horses while in foot. The intent of this parade knot was to serve as a way to humanely maintain control of a horse during a parade where it could be suddenly startled.

The loop of the noose was tightened around the muzzle of the horse. The lead, along with the reins, were held in the off hand and the coils were held in the hand closest to the horse. If the horse started to skitter, the person leading the horse could take the coils and cant them against the horses jaw. This would cause the loop to temporally tighten but would loosen when the coils were moved to the original perpendicular position. This technique was used to provide temporary control over an otherwise well disciplined horse.

What I would like to see in this article (and I will start doing some research) is what are the different “knots” used for judicial hangings? I know that the British used a spliced running loop lined with chamois leather. I also believe that US military hangings used a similar spliced running noose. It would be interesting to find out whether other countries used the “hangman’s/parade knot”. It would also be interesting to find out when the hangman’s/parade knot was first used for judicial hangings in this country and how it was chosen.

One theory I have read indicated that the bulk of the coils of the hangman’s/parade knot would impact the mastoid process of the condemned, knocking them out. I don’t know whether this theory is accurate or not. Throckmorton Guildersleeve (talk) 17:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

What about political implications or symbolism?

If I hung a rope from a tree in the middle of town square with a bow tie at the end, it would be ignored until park employees removed it. However if that rope ended in a Hangman's Noose, it would make news headlines that very evening. The act alone could possibly even be considered a "Hate Crime". Of all the knots you can tie, this is the only one that invokes fear and anger in people and even carries connotations of racism. Also people have been penalized and even fired from their jobs over this particular knot... even just for DRAWING a picture of one! So I believe this topic is notable enough to be included in this article. If a rope was found in a tree in the front yard of Barack Obama, that was tied in a Hangman's Noose, it would be the top story of every media outlet on earth. BillyTFried (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Man gets 4 months for threatening 'Jena 6' protesters with noose

• Jeremiah Munsen, 19, pleaded guilty to federal hate crime charges in April
• Munsen admitted driving past protesters with noose dangling from truck
• Protesters were waiting at bus depot after rally in Jena 6 case
• Rally concerned criminal charges for six black teens in attack on white teen

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/15/jena.noose/

BillyTFried (talk) 20:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hangman's knot in racism

I made an edit to the hangman's noose page today. It's really poorly written though so talented writers and wiki editors may want to go in and fix it. Thanks. Djclimber (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Post script

BillyTFried is onto some good points. It is definitely worth noting that it would be really idiotic to display this knot where it could be publicly viewed. I wrote a snippet on that but something more detailed--and with citations--should be posted. Thanks! 69.134.178.168 (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

History section is poor

All the History section says is "The hangman's knot was used on ropes in Colonial America as well as England during the 16th and 18th centuries.". Immediately two questions spring to mind

1. What did they do in the 17th century?
2. The hanging article says in England it was used for judicial punishment from around 400 to 1964. Did they use other knots in that period?

Maybe they used other types of knot - I'm no expert. Needs to be clarified though. The hanging article seems quite extensive, so maybe just put a link in to that for execution information if this knot was used in most cases.

This article should say when and where the knot originated, and its history (if any) outside executions. Lessthanideal (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Any kind of noose will kill if one is suspended by the neck, whether the neck is broken or not. Historically, death by hanging meant strangulation, not a quick end due to cervical fracture as executions were not meant to be painless or quick. There is a lot of entertainment value in watching someone struggling at the end of a noose. A much earlier knot used was the scaffold knot (http://www.expertvillage.com/video/73193_knot-tying-tips-multiple-scaffold.htm), which also is a self locking knot. I believe this was used extensively in England and elsewhere in Europe until relatively recently. Several variations on this theme were used at various times and in various jurisdictions. The hangman's knot became "popular in England during the 17th or 18th century because it was very strong and would not release no matter how hard the victim struggled. After introduction of the measured drop in late 19th century England a simple loop noose (http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/berryn.jpg) was used as a drop of 6 or 7 feet would almost always result in a broken or dislocated neck (if not the victim would still die in a few minutes, albeit more slowly). In any event, there is very little in the way of struggle when someone is hanged this way. I am not sure of the dates or many of the particulars of these events but someone could do some serious research on this and greatly improve the article. The following article gives a very good history of hanging in the UK but little detail is provided about the kind of noose used prior to the 1890s (http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging1.html#pinion). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.78.86.166 (talk) 16:54, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

How the Hangman's Noose Kills

There are a number of misconceptions here about how the hangman’s noose kills. To assure a dislocation or fracture of the cervical vertebra a drop of 5 to 7 feet is required (or more especially if the victim is a small woman or child). Tables are available to calculate the drop depending on the weight of the victim (http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html). Unconsciousness is almost immediate (supposedly) and death occurred a few minutes later. The “blow” provided by the knot upon a drop of several feet likely ads nothing the process. In fact a simple loop noose was used instead of the hangman’s noose in the U.K. and many other jurisdictions because it was just as effective at causing a neck fracture, especially when the knot is placed toward the front of the neck, and easier to remove when the hanging was over. So the use of the hangman’s noose in modern judicial hangings serves no purpose other than tradition.

Prior to the mid 19th century most hangings were performed with little or no drop off a ladder or the back of a cart and the neck was almost never broken. (This is still the way hangings are carried out in some parts of the world and how most suicide hangings take place.) In such cases it can take 1 to 3 minutes before the victim looses consciousness and he/she may struggle violently during the painful process. The pain largely is due to damage to soft neck tissues caused by the entire body weight being supported by the neck and jaw. Also the victim will feel panic at being unable to breath. Unconsciousness and eventually death results from asphyxia caused by blockage of blood to the brain and not due to lack of air in the lungs. Note, in some cases death may occur very quickly after suspension due to heart stoppage caused by the vagal reflex. This is why it is extremely dangerous to play at hanging even if the victim is suspended only for a few seconds.

In the case of a short drop or suspension hanging there is an advantage to a self-locking knot like the hangman’s knot. If properly tied and lubricated with wax or soap it will tighten under the weight of the victim but will not loosen during the inevitable struggle, accomplishing the strangulation process more rapidly. Also, the tradition of placing the knot below the ear has the advantage of obstructing both the carotid and vertebral arteries resulting in more rapid unconsciousness. In fact, condemned prisoners were known to request bribe hangmen to properly place the noose at the side of the neck before being executed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.236.222 (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I also don't understand how a knot could provide an extra blow. Maybe a particular shape of knot could keep the head in a position that makes the drop more effective, but adding an extra blow? That seems very implausible to me, I'll remove it from the article. 82.139.87.182 (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2009 (UTC)