Talk:Hawaiki

Savai'i

There are some grounds for believing that Savai'i may be the original Hawaiki. The Proto-Polynesian form can reasonably be assumed to have been *Sawaiki. According to a series on Hawaiki that aired some time ago on Māori Television, there is a Sawaiki in Fiji. I have been unable to find any other references. If there is such a place, it can reasonably be assumed to be the original. It would be useful to know if the people of Tonga and Niue had the name in their traditions. If not, this would point more definitely to Savai'i in Samoa as the original Hawaiki.

This seems to fit the pattern of Polynesian expansion. It would be interesting to know more about the Tongan hou'eiki; was there a settlement/invasion by Samoan/Savai'ian nobility? If so, it makes a more plausible scenario than to assume that Hawaiki in general is derived from the Polynesian nobility. Hawaiki the otherworld has no unequivocal connection with nobility only, and Polynesian society was stratified enough to expect that it would if there was any genetic relationship. BUT a lot of Polynesians would have preserved oral traditions of their kind originating in Samoa say around 800ish (Hawaiians preserved clear oral memory of historic events for nearly 1000 years). Dysmorodrepanis 22:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It is likely that Eastern Polynesians applied the name successively to the most recent homeland left behind. For the Māori of New Zealand, this would be in the area of the Cook Islands (the immediate departure point) or Tahiti. I understand that the Moriori people of the Chatham Islands used the name Hawaiki to refer to the New Zealand mainland.—Copey 2 13:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Have you tried the journals Archeology in Oceania, Oceanic Linguistics and Pacific Science? They should hold papers you will find useful. Dysmorodrepanis 22:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Underworld

It is likely that many of the references in the Polynesian traditions have been misread as talking about a 'mythical homeland' when they were actually referring to the Underworld. In many parts of Eastern Polynesia, Avaiki/Havaiki/Hawaiki refers to the underworld. That is true also in some Māori stories - we think when we read them now that Hawaiki means 'ancestral homeland' but reading it as 'the underworld' can make more sense. S. Percy Smith in particular loved to reinterpret the old stories to fit his theories, and once it gets into print, there's no stopping its spread. He did a lot of work in the Cook Islands as well as in NZ and his reinterpretations have made their way into the popular understanding in both places. Witness the monument on Rarotonga to the place where the seven canoes of the (now debunked) Great Fleet left from, as if it was something that was actually recorded in the genuine Cook Islands traditions! It wasn't there until S P Smith made it up Kahuroa 10:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Only thing is, Tregear was writing 100 years ago and his use of the word "underworld" may have reflected a Christian worldview. Is there perhaps a more neutral term to reflect that concept of "underworld"? Or, is it possible to define what "underworld" exactly means? I associate it with Hell which is a Christian/Euro conceptualization. Mona-Lynn 20:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't have those associations. Orbell uses the term underworld, so its not just Tregear. I think the Mangaian traditions are pretty clear about what Avaiki is. And there will always be trouble finding English translations for Polynesian concepts so you'll never please anyone. Other problematic words are Heaven, Paradise etc. I like to let the stories speak for themselves - eg in the Māui stories he flies down to where his father lives. His mother pulls up a clump of rushes and enters downwards. BTW I'm not saying Hawaiki is not a mythical homeland - just that it might not always mean that Kahuroa 00:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

PS - The good thing about Tregear is that he does give his sources so quite often you can check what the terms were in the original languages. Also he just predates the S Percy Smith crap and that can be a help. BTW Anything from Mangaia is probably from Gill originally - *W.W. Gill, Myths and Songs of the South Pacific (Henry S. King: London), 1876. Kahuroa 09:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there a distinction between Hawaiki the ancestral homeland, and Hawaiki the dwelling of departed spirits? I always thought that the spirits departed from Te Reinga and returned over the Ocean to the land of their ancestors.

Underworld isn't really part of a Christian world view. Its a term sometimes used to describe the after-life concepts of other religions, especially the older paganisms of Europe and the Mediterranean area. In the last century or so it has also been applied to the Jewish concept of She' ol.—Copey 2 06:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Distinctions, destinations of the dead depend on which tradition/story/legend/myth/storyteller you are looking at. You can only say 'in this story by this person of this tribe, Hawaiki seems to be X'. In another story by the same person, Hawaiki might be Y. Hawaiki could have been both homeland AND the dwelling of the spirits - or neither - it depends - those two states are not necessarily mutually exclusive anyway. Oral traditions work they way they work and consistency of definition across stories was not important to the purposes the stories served - it was usually irrelevant. It wasn't like there was a textbook that storytellers went by. Kahuroa 07:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"Land of the Ancestors"; compare "mainland"/"motherland", Alchera in other cultures. Mythical place of origin, of course it also makes a good abode for spirits.

Or "guinee" in Voodoo, which seems to much parallel Hawaiki in cultural/religious role, but preserves a clear indication of its origin. Dysmorodrepanis 22:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

'Avaiki in the Cook Islands refers to both "the underworld" and "ancestral homeland". I'll get a reference.

Maori rahi 04:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Pseudohistory

Deleted the following sentence:

Mythologgy

Some pseudo-historical theories connect Hawaiki with the lost Pacific Ocean continent of Mu

It doesn't say which theories, in what way the two are connected, and in any event implies (through the use of the label "pseudohistorical" that the theories aren't reliable or credible anyway. In otherwords, utterly useless non-information! ElectricRay 18:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not paper. There is plenty of room for trivia. --JW1805 (Talk) 03:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not an article about trivia. Its supposed to be about Hawaiki. Not about lost continents. Kahuroa 04:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Kahuroa. I think Wikipedia has way too much trivia, which is peripheral to the actual thing in question. Mona-Lynn 03:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, I agree wuith Kahuroa and Mona-Lynn. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. It should dispense with trivia in all its manifestations.ElectricRay 21:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Pulotu and Hawaiki connections

Perhaps someone should make light of the connections between the Samoan Pulotu and Hawaiki variants found throughout Polynesia. As the entrance to the Samoan Pulotu is located in Savai'i and Samoans too believe of spirits leaping off a cliff from Upolu then swimming to the entrance to Pulotu in Savai'i. Also the lake and tree found in Hawaiki and Pulotu should be mentioned. These show strong connections between Pulotu in Savai'i and Hawaiki. I also think that location of Cape Reinga(the leaping point for Maori) , shows connections to the Samoan Savai'i. It's not pointing to Tahiti or Rarotonga.

Firstly, please USE signatures!

Secondly while Te Reinga does point physically towards Savai'i that does not mean that New Zealand Māori directly migrated from Savai'i to New Zealand otherwise Samoan and New Zealand Māori would share more vocabulary and grammatical features and cultural practices. As it stands right now, New Zealand Māori has more in common with Cook Islands Māori (southern and northern variants) and Tahitian than Samoan.

Maori rahi (talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

No one said anything about coming "directly" from Savai'i, Samoa. For most Maori waka Tahiti and Cook islands where the last departure point but, those places are not origins, they are stepping stones. Hawaiki is origins and the linguistic evidence suggests that Samoa Savai'i is the true origin of Maori.

The Cook Islands and Tahiti are places of origin for many New Zealand Maori (let's not forget some claim to come from the land Aotearoa itself). Its like saying England is not the place of origin of the English since they came from areas now known as France, Rome and Germany. Its like saying the Samoans do not originate from Samoa - they originate from Taiwan/Formosa.Maori rahi (talk) 07:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Material from Ratzel `The History of Mankind'

I am not qualified to edit the Hawaiki article but am writing to to bring to attention a view on the legends relating to Hawaiki written in the late 1800's by Professor Ratzel. This may provide material for developing the article. It can be viewed at http://www.inquirewithin.biz/history/american_pacific/oceania/migration_legends.htm and other related pages. Jason127 (talk) 22:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)