Talk:Indian summer

WikiProject Time assessment rating comment

Want to help write or improve articles about Time? Join WikiProject Time or visit the Time Portal for a list of articles that need improving. -- Yamara 02:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

The Old Farmer's Almanac claims that a true Indian Summer Day can only occur between November 11th and the 20th, citing a proverb: "'If All-Saints brings out winter, St Martin's brings out Indian summer.' Accordingly, Indian summer can occur between St Martin's Day, November 11th and November 20th." But All-Saints Day is November 1st. What gives? - Brigham

This article seems to suggest that the term only applies in North America - it ain't so, the term is used in the UK and for all I know other parts of Europe too. This might help shed some light on its etymology, it may in fact long predate US colonisation (???). Quite often in England there is a late warm period, usually in late September or early October (which at such latitude is normally heading well into autumn), and this is commonly referred to as an Indian summer. GRAHAMUK 10:18, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

In Germany the term is also wellknown as a fact of tourism to Canada and Vermont, but it is different to the german expression "Altweibersommer". --Herrick 10:30, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I always assumed the name used the negative definition of "Indian", as in Indian giver--i.e., "false summer." Is that not one of the possible etymologies? Funnyhat 07:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In July–October 2004, the article did indeed mention this possibility. User:TheGrza removed that speculation, though, saying it doesn't make sense, because "summer is being given AGAIN". But to me, it seems the summer that is being given is so short-lived, it is as if it is a gift that is taken away right away, hence it's just like "Indian giver"; the use of "Indian" carries the same general connotation of deceitfulness. It also seems unlikely that the qualifier "Indian" would've been used benignly by European settlers in the 1780s. — mjb 06:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that an etymological speculation should not be removed just because it doesn't make sense, unless there was no evidence for it at all. In any case, it is clear that the phrase has a long history in Europe and, to me, this invalidates the US etymology since a US phrase is unlikely to be so prevalent in Europe (things such as this didn't spread so easily in those days). Of course, it is possible that the same phrase could develop in two places independently, and so would have two different etymologies. Davidmaxwaterman (talk) 01:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that this phrase, and Indian giver, are related to the phenomenon that gives rise to English phrases like "French" leave and "Dutch" courage or "Dutch" treat. Using a local "foreign" culture to imply that something isn't actually what it is called; i.e. an Indian giver is actually a lender and Indian summer is actually fall. I'm pretty sure this was discussed by Safire or Newman in one of their books. It makes as much sense as any other etymology. Halfelven 11:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I had no idea that this phrase originated in America. It's been in use in Britain all my life (I'm 55) and I always assumed it was a reference to India the country rather than native Americans. Britain has had links with India for over 300 years and many families would have had a relative living there at one time, either in the bureaucracy or the army. This misunderstanding may be responsible for the term's rapid adoption in Britain, implicitly suggesting that an unusually warm and sunny autumn period is like summer in India. I can't find any supportive evidence though, so won't modify the article. --Ef80 (talk) 15:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I remember a BBC production of the "Forsyte Saga" that included at the end "Indian Summer of a Forsyte" as an episode. It had no reference to America at all. I live in Georgia, USA, and here the phrase means a period in autumn (NOT the dog days of summer) in which there are very cool mornings and hot afternoons. Derrick Chapman 23:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Derrickchapman (talk • contribs)

another definition

I added another definition for indian summer. Where I'm from (southern United States) it is often used to describe dog days or the hottest days of the year. I also added a link to the dog days article as I think that term is much more common. I'm trying to find a citation for this but it's hard to find a reputable one for what is essentially regional colloquial slang :) Donald Antonini 14:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm from the south too and I've never heard actual summer referred to as Indian summer. I'm from Arkansas and Indian summer is consistently used there in my experience to mean the last warm days of autumn. Perhaps in some narrower region than "The south" it is used to mean August dog days but I've never once heard it used that way. In California, it can be used for unseasonably warm days in the winter as well as the fall. Especially if it hits 90 after Christmas. Halfelven 11:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The article claims that Old Wives' Summer is the term used in the UK. I am far from being in the first flush of youth and never in my lifetime have I heard this term used. It has always been called Indian Summer. If the Old Wives' Summer did originate in Britain, I would suggest that it is either a long since obsolete expression or is limited to a very small geographic area.Megra 14:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Megra. I have never heard this in England, and have lived both North and South. It seems to be a direct translation of the German term Altweibersommer. "Indian Summer" is the familiar term, and is used from late September onwards. I think the older English equivalent would be "Saint Martin's Summer", from Saint Martin's Day on November 11th. Robina Fox 13:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I would add ( yet another ) take on this term. Where I grew up in Michigan, we often used this term to describe a particular, unexpected, surreal, and sudden warming of the weather. [ Similar in idea to the "unexpected blooming" definition. ] However, in our sense, the comment was not merely an idle one, but rather to put others on notice, since this kind of weather might produce a tornado. 71.126.10.33 (talk) 03:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I also grew up in the South, and there Indian Summer meant warm weather in the Fall, AFTER a cold snap. In fact the Wiki page says the same thing - warmth after a frost. So the Wiki page comment a few lines down about Indian Summer in San Fran makes no sense - it never frosts there, or at least not in the Fall, which is usually the hottest part of the year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.193.93 (talk) 04:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

February

We've used that term to refer to the warm spell in February. 67.188.172.165

>Could you give a location for that usage? Robina Fox 13:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The other half of the year

What names are there for periods of warm sunny weather in the spring? They certainly seem to be common here in Britain. -- Smjg 17:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember which, but, there was a Stephen King novel which called it a "strawberry spring". --198.49.180.40 (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Could do with a rewrite

"Indian summer also has been referenced as the first 3-day warm period following falls first hard freeze(referenced as "squaw's winter"). Not a part of native folklore. Used by early settlers.

As a senior Canadian we were also told that this period always fell after the first snowfall or hard frost. Most of the article is written as if the US is the only country involved. In 2010 this mini-season is currently falling on November 7-15th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.149.54 (talk) 15:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Source: Dick Goddard - Cleveland 5:30p.m. FOX News/Weather 11/09/06" - The writing style of this section is not in keeping with the rest, also the term "Fall" is used instead of Autumn which differs from the rest of the article. Needs a rewrite. Darkflame23 16:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I found a very queer paragraph in the "overview" section of the article (the second one about "Humanzees" and "Dr. Peppa"). Since I am new here, and know very little about the weather, I do not wish to edit it myself. However, I suggest deleting or rewriting it. Dramatic chipmunk (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Usage

References to specific regions have been removed. While this may be good for some the subject matter is subject to much geographic folklore and geographic dependant climate, apparently. The following (second?) paragraph specifies another type of "Indian Summer" definition and specifies particular regions to apply it to. This makes your editted paragraph contradictory and not inline with other paragraphs using specific regions for each definition.

There are some definition contradictions in this article paragraph that need, overall editting for consistency. Reference to snow is an example "before the first snow" and then later "or snow" (being a requirement).

This article needs to demand cites for each edit as this subject matter is almost totally based on folklore and very different for different geographic areas and climates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.149.54 (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

The passage in question was "The generally accepted use of the term in some regions is when the weather is sunny and clear, and above 21 °C (70 °F), and all of the leaves of the trees have turned but before the first snow has fallen; a period normally associated with mid-October to late-November in the northern states of the United States and Canadian regions." which I have edited down to "The generally accepted use of the term is when the weather is sunny and clear, and above 21 °C (70 °F), and all of the leaves of the trees have turned but before the first snow has fallen; a period normally associated with mid-October to late-November.".

This is a general statement that applies to many/most parts of the Northern Hemisphere, in particular to Europe, so it is not helpful to exemplify "the northern states of the United States and Canadian regions" when the statement applies much more broadly. Subsequent examples are/should be exceptions to the generality.

Having said that, I fully agree that the page needs considerable editorial work, in particular in relation to providing cites. Bridgeplayer (talk) 03:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)