Talk:Combating Cult Mind Control

Question posed to User:Jossi

[mv from my user page]

I have created the article, Combatting Cult Mind Control, bearing in mind the essay you recommended Wikipedia:Writing for the enemy. I have added a note after other articles which mention Steven Hassan, citing him as the author of this work. I only did this after I noticed that many other articles both within and without Wikipedia do so already in articles about Steven Hassan, they mention this seminal work as a sort of caveat. By the way, the book itself is referenced by over 19 other books, is a best-seller, is still in print, and is published in 7 different languages. I would hope that you would agree that the book is notable in its own right. Let me know what you think. Yours, Smeelgova 20:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

I don't know what you mean when you say that this is "writimg for the enemy", it is not. Nevertheless, my personal opinion is that articles on books should be left only for these main pieces of literature that are widely accepted/ considered to be highly notable. Wikipedia is not the place to list any and all books, this included. You may want to cosinder removing editorializing from the article, such as using "an instructive, non-fiction book", "value of book". Writing for the enemy would be in this case, finding a negative review of the book and adding it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, listing all the citations, is kind of strange and never used on other articles about books. Note that 19 citations is quite a poor showing anyway. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

As it stands now, the article deserves a {{POV}} tag, as it is hardly a neutral article. I will leave you some space and time to fix it before adding the NPOV dispute tag. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I have implemented your recommendations/suggestions.

As per above:

1. Referenced by at least 19 other books.
2. Best-seller.
3. Still in print.
4. Published in 7 different languages.
5. As a sidenote, ranked "#136,353 in Books", on Amazon.com's "sales list", and that's after being first published in 1988.

What about the above do you not agree with? How is it that you do not think that above makes this book "highly notable" ? Thanks for engaging in the more pleasant discussion. Yours, Smeelgova 20:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

Thank you for leaving me some space and time to fix the article. Yours, Smeelgova 20:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

As it stands now this article actually deserves {{Advert}}. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Referenced by at least 19 other books

Poor number of citations

• Best-seller

Which list? New Your Times bestseller list?

• Still in print

There are millions of books in print. That is not a measure of notability

• Published in 7 different languages

OK

• As a sidenote, ranked "#136,353 in Books", on Amazon.com's "sales list", and that's after being first published in 1988.

Pretty poor rank.

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Your standards

1. What is an acceptable number of citations in other books? (By the way, there are most likely hundreds of more citations, this is all I have at the moment, I will find more, but please give me some time.)
2. Best-seller - The book has been cited as a best-seller in literally thousands of other websites. Leave some time for a citation to develop.
3. Published in 7 different languages - So do you admit that this particular point is relatively noteworthy?
4. Still in print - OK, I was merely stating it's been in print for almost 20 years and still sells very well, that is pretty notable.
5. What is a good Amazon.com sales rank, in your opinion?

Yours, Smeelgova 21:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

My view, is that this article should be on AfD. Only really important books should have their own article. Check the page of great any of the authors in Category:American_philosophers or Category:American_novelists and show me how many of these author's books have an article in Wikipedia (none). You may be crossing the line here in attempting to list numerous anti-cult books, most of which are non-notable. Such books should be listed on their author's bio page and that is it. I will be placing this book on AfD soon.≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• May I make a personal request for you to give this book article the chance to be expanded upon by other editors who are not invested in this topic? Perhaps one week or more? Yours, Smeelgova 23:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

Not, really. I think you are making a mistake in creating these types of articles. Wikipedia is not Amazon.com ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps not, but there currently exist many book articles on books much less noteworthy than this one. And I think I have made a good case for it. Can you please respond to the points I listed above before listing an AFD? Certainly at the very least all of these points merit waiting a bit more, as I have said above, before doing so. Thanks for the discussion. Yours, Smeelgova 23:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

"there currently exist many book articles on books" -- Coud you give some a few examples of such books? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you first respond to my points above, at the top of this subsection? Thanks for the warmer discussion this time around. Yours, Smeelgova 23:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

These are the wrong questions. The AfD will ask other editors to comment about if this book is notable enough to warrant its own article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but for a while there we had some good point/counter-point going that was very educational for me. Enlighten me please, can you please respond to the points above? See also Non Fiction Stubs for a whole host of different books that could go to AFD. Yours, Smeelgova 00:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

Rewrite this article to be similar in size and tone as say A_Return_to_Love oder City_of_Djinns and we may be able to avoid an AfD. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I will check out those articles and try to do so. But please give me some time, I need to take a break from this stuff. Thank you for your understanding. Yours, Smeelgova 00:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

I have done as much as I could. I have asked other editors to give you feedback on this and the other articles on books that you have created. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• Sigh, User:Jossi, I need to take a break from Wikipedia. As stated above I will comply with your suggested model article. Please allow me some time. It had seemed from your prior comment that you were going to allow me a little lattitude. I wish that you would continue engaging me in this fruitful discussion and not resort to reporting me all the time to Wikipedia Administrators. I am striving to learn and comply with your suggestions. Thank you. Smeelgova 00:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

I did not "reported you". I have asked other editors to give you some feedback. Have a good break. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Please give it some time

• The article has been in place for all of 1 hour. Please give it some time to develop before adding any labels. It has the stub tag. I have had trouble finding reputable secondary sources which state some criticism. Please allow some time for other users who are not us, who do not have POV so heavily vested in this, to take a look. Yours, Smeelgova 21:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

Rewrite

I have re-written the article to provide an NPOV and informative description of the book. I have removed all material that read much as advertising. I would argue also that the infobox does not add much, and would be better deleted as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

• I do not see what the problem is with the infobox? That seems to be a standard on book articles, and it certainly is NPOV, and doesn't take up much space or draw the reader's attention from the article. Smeelgova 19:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

Criticism

• The criticism section has zero references to the book, Combatting Cult Mind Control. Some of the referenced citations do not mention the book or Steven Hassan even once. I am removing sections in question. I am attempting to format the article per above suggested A_Return_to_Love article. Yours, Smeelgova 23:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

The notablity of the book is closely related to the author. So we can have either the content ogf this article merged with the authors' article, or we have to provide context about who the author is. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it is best if you want to take us to AFD on this one. I don't appreciate your reverting of all of my edits, and I personally think the material you added was highly inappropriate. The sources did not directly mention Hassan or the book. Smeelgova 02:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

I agree that this with Smeelgova that the criticism makes no relation to the book. Criticisms, reviews, and critiques of the books are fine, but this text should be moved to Steven Hassan. Andries 10:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Citations

I would argue that citations of a book are not to be used, in particular, as these citations may not all be an imprimatur of the author that cited the book. It may well be a critique of the book, or just a mention of a specif passage to present the point of view of the author. I have removed these accordingly. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Understandable argument. But they do go to its notability. Yours, Smeelgova 00:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

Not necesarily. A notable scholar will have thousands or at least hundreds of citations. See for example http://ascweb.usc.edu/pubs/faculty/SSCI%20ranking%20Communication%20Scholars%202005.pdf ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Peter Mosier

Who is Peter Mosier? His he notable person to feature a quote of his review in this article? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

And BTW, it seems that the quote featured is not from Peter Mosier. See the ref ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems that Mr. Mosier is an ex-member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. See [1]. Hardly notable to be cited. Quote removed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Please find a quote of a review published by an independent reviewer that is verifiable and published in a reliable source. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, will do. Yours, Smeelgova 00:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

Thank you, User:Jossi, for getting a more reputable quote in there. Yours, Smeelgova 00:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

Critical Viewpoints

I have edited the first paragraph of this section to comply with Wikipedia Guidelines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_peacock_terms —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downstrike (talk • contribs) 19:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Not religion, but social psychology and psychotherapy.

Thanks for your advice. I am suggesting additional material to expand the scope of this article. This is not about religion. Mind control is about cults, typically dogmatic, authoritarian, cults of personality where mindless devotion is directed toward one person and deviation from this person’s dogma or decree is not tolerated, and devotees are likely to be paranoid when their cult based beliefs are challenged.

Given the nature of the topic indicated by the title, I think it inappropriate to focus on one source only. I would like to direct readers to, for example:

"Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Other Abusive Relationships", by Tobias and Lalich

I think it is now out of print. I suspect the article was inspired by someone who was impressed with the book for which the article is named. But there are other authors and many more cults other than the Moonies, some of which have cloaked themselves in psuedo-psychology, not religion. (Scientology has used both approaches).

Will this idea work for you?

Following is why I have interest:

I once knew a fellow who graduated from UCLA clinical psychology school, who for some reason became, along with his girlfriend, a convert to est (Erhard Seminar Training) in the mid 1970's. est was a large-scale, for profit, mind control cult. [I am aware that there are still true devotees out there, but please do not edit out my comment. We are all entitled to make conclusions from evidence.]

The tactics used for recruitment selected for naive and gullible people with money to burn. A certain number of those folks recruited went on to be (presumably) lifelong paranoid cult devotees. I have had to deal with an est devotee. This person felt compelled to deceive and hide facts about what went on in the program even though it had ceased to exist decades earlier. I already knew, and I knew that one thing that took place was that all who paid for so-called est training had to promise never to reveal what happened during the training.

Most est members were white, middle- or upper-middle class. College education did not seem to help them avoid getting caught up in a mind control cult. In fact it seemed that est was targeting people with money who hoped est training would let them in on a tightly held secret that only really smart people could understand. There were many suckers. Some of them became permanent paranoid devotees. This was not a coincidence; est tactical approaches to breaking down ego defenses were, literally, ”in your face” mind control tactics.

There are always cults going around, typically presenting themselves as a personal growth enterprise, or alternately as instruction in a metaphysical source of power as taught by the perfect master of same. Recently when visiting the African American Museum in Los Angeles I heard a very minor pitch thrown in by a devotee of a Black Hebrew or Black Isreali cult--the first I had ever heard of it.

This type of thing can be very dangerous for the lives of suckers who buy in. Araktsu (talk) 07:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)