Talk:Deborah Kerr

Oscar Nomination query

I thought Deborah Kerr was nominated for Best Actress for her role as Terry McKay in "An Affair To Remember", if I'm not mistaken. Lastcharlie 18:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Check her IMDb page showing her awards. She was Oscar nominated (without a win) for Edward, My Son (1949), From Here to Eternity (1953), The King and I (1956), Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison (1957), Separate Tables (1958) & The Sundowners (1960). All as Best Actress in a Leading Role. -- SteveCrook 20:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Honours

There seems to be have been considerable speculation on why Deborah Kerr has been considered or not for certain British honours. However the decision to award or not has nothing to do with whether the person is 'retired' or not. Politicians, on retiring from public service, are regularly honoured. So it is inappropriate for individuals to insert their personal theories as to why this or that award has been made. I have removed this and left the facts only- that she holds a CBE.--134.36.64.135 22:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you were the one who removed my participation in the Deborah Kerr Oscar and CBE campaigns, but if one can do this willfully without facts it causes the entire Wikipedia process to be subject to bogus entries or deletions.

In particular longtime contributor Bill Keane wrote a piece about my involvement with the aforementioned campaigns and backed it up with assertions and newspaper articles attesting to my involvement.

Therefore I am reproducing the essence of what happened regarding Deborah's receipt of her long overdue Oscar and royal honour and if it is removed again, well, I guess there's nothing I can do. It is childish to play tit for tat with those who are ignorant.

In particular, I have been printed in the Daily Telegraph, The Independent and the Evening Standard and the Scottish Sun taking the Ceremonial Secretariat and the government in general to task for denying Deborah the Dame status she well deserved. I am a Hollywood screenwriter, who successfully contributed to her Oscar campaign (after having done so for Myrna Loy a few years earlier) and thereafter immediately contacted the British authorities about giving Deborah a royal honour. I was incensed that not only was she not a Dame, but had never been given so much as an MBE (the lowest such award) in spite of her brilliant film career.

At first I got nowhere and indeed the Ceremonial Secretariat website says quite clearly that retired people no longer qualify -- look it up if you don't believe me. However, after a chance visit to Scotland in 1997 and after a few letters about the dearth of mention about her in her hometown of Helensburgh, I forged a relationship with David Bruce, former head of the Scottish Film Council (now Scottish Screen). In short, he had British political connections as a friend of the then Minister for Film Tom Clarke. Armed with that, plus letters I was able to arrange from top screenwriters such as Daniel Taradash (From Here to Eternity), John Gay (Separate Tables), Robert Anderson (Tea and Sympathy) and Larry Gelbart (M*A*S*H TV series and Tootsie, among others) we prevailed upon the powers that be to not overlook this elegant woman, who always reflected so well on Britain. And in only two months time, quite shocking actually, a royal honour was announced. However, it was only a CBE, and not the DBE we had requested.

I wrote to Tom Clarke and arranged a meeting with him at Parliament when I was in London and he said that, while it would be difficult to arrange, he would look into it. A little bit later, Tony Blair sacked him and I wrote to Clarke's successor, Janet Anderson, who also said she would see what she could do. However, it appeared unlikely that anything might be arranged for at least five years as Deborah had just been given a high honour (though not what she deserved). And usually the higher honour is awarded when additional achievements are displayed, as in the case of Elton John CBE, who was elevated to knighthood after his charity work with AIDS -- not to mention Princess Diana.

The problem was that Deborah was now ill and retired. She should have been honoured when she was at the height of her fame, and then we might have gotten her "promoted" from that. But we were starting from scratch, the government having overlooked her, and, as stated above, unlike the Kennedy Center Honours, the Oscars themselves and the AFI Tributes, the royal honours do not normally get bestowed on those no longer in service. That's why it was sort of a miracle she finally got the CBE at 76. And we had the Film Minister on our side, no doubt indicating that, hang the rules it is an outrage -- we must give her something.

And so she did get the CBE, and after I informed Robert Anderson, he called Deborah, then called me to request that I call her in Switzerland. I was reluctant to do so, as our communications had only been through several letters over the years and a brief personal meeting, but he insisted. And so I did, and the voice on the other end, so distinctive was none other than Deborah Kerr. She thanked me continuously, having been told by Anderson what I'd done, as she'd done by mail from Spain after she was announced for an Oscar. The latter was achieved by a letter writing campaign to many of her film colleagues to contact the Academy, and then personal conversations with Academy Governor Roddy McDowell, who eloquently lobbied for her to be honored by the Academy.

So, I don't know why people just assume that what people say is false and then have the arrogance to delete the record of what is absolutely true.

Finally, I am stunned by her loss, though it was somewhat expected, and only learned of it days later via email from friends as I checked my AOL messages while on a recent trip to the Sao Paulo Film Festival in Brazil. I'm writing this a bit fatigued having returned to Los Angeles from Rio de Janeiro this morning.

If you people are interested in the facts, then you ought to leave things as they are, especially when they deal with industry professionals such as myself, who anyone can research on IMDB or other Internet sources.

In any event, rest in peace, dear Deborah.

Michael RussnowAndymickey 00:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Film Nudity

I removed a section discussing her film nudity as it provided false and inaccurate information. According to the obit on cnn.com, "She refused to play a nude scene in The Gypsy Moths, released in 1968. It was when they started that 'Now everybody has got to take their clothes off,' she said. My argument was that it was completely gratuitous. Had it been necessary for the dramatic content, I would have done it. In fact she undressed for The Arrangement, even though the scene was later cut. There the nude scene was necessary, husband and wife in bed together, Kerr said. That was real." See [1]

Note: The text of the article at present says that Kerr's nude scene was for "The Apartment" when it should be "The Arrangement" as stated here above. Someone should correct that in the article. I'm not familiar with the ways of Wikipedia enough to risk it myself. Just wanted to point out the mistake.

Deborah Kerr did shoot a nude scene in the The Gypsy Moths - just watch the film and you'll see it for yourself or look her up on Google for the screenshot photos. The evidence is there. Tovojolo 11:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

There are sources for each side, so I've presented both. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

However, as far as I watch the actual scene, can't distinguish between Kerr and body double argued in article. See [2] [3]

Birth Place

Deborah was born in Glasgow, not Helensburgh. She was brought up in Helensburgh, but was NOT born there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.43.11 (talk • contribs)

This is true if one is quite technical and it is what maddened me when I visited Helensburgh and later befriended local resident David Bruce.

It seems that after the Scottish Film Centenary, a call was put out to honor Scottish film folk and Deborah was high on the list. A plaque was commissioned to honor her and another Helensburgh native Jack Buchanan. But some ridiculous town naysayers denied Deborah's link to the town by saying she was actually born in a hospital in Glasgow. This was true, but after her birth she was brought home to the family home in Helensburgh, where she spent her early years.

It is to her parents' credit that they desired the best medical care for her entry into this world and went to a major medical facility. This was the early 1920's. But because she was not midwifed in a small town does not break her ties to that community. An article about my visit and dismay was written in the Helensburgh weekly newspaper under the title of "Deborah Kerr, the Burgh's Forgotten Star." Indeed, as I mentioned in the piece, the town gets more from the association with her than a world class star such as Deborah Kerr would be afforded by connection to the citizenry of such a small hamlet.

But the idiots actually demanded that a new plaque with only Jack Buchanan's name be crafted and the original plaque is in the home of David Bruce, who joined forces with me to get her a royal honour.

It was nonsense all around, considering the notices on walls, such as "George Washington Slept Here." I even saw such a plaque about Benjamin Franklin having visited a building in Zurich. People will normally lay claim to even the slightest involvement with an individual to upgrade a town or city's status. So, to thus insist that Deborah Kerr was not really from Helensburgh is small minded, though interestingly when she got the Oscar, David Bruce wrote that the town was all agog. Finally!

Michael Russnow Andymickey 00:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

According to her obituary in the The Herald: "The daughter of a civil engineer, she was born Deborah Jane Kerr-Trimmer in 1921 in a nursing home in Glasgow. She spent her earliest years in Helensburgh, routinely cited as her place of birth." I have added this information to the article and provided the link.204.126.251.49 23:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

This article contains a "recent death" tag, which some might consider as a sign that stability in the article has not been achieved. While I do not personally agree with this, I the article has enough flaws that, when combined with a potential stability issue, merit a fail rather than a hold. Here are some of the most pressing issues with the article:

1. The article needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, it must touch upon every major point made in the article and not contain any facts that are not present in the body of the article. The lead, as it currently stands, fails on both counts.  Erledigt Tovojolo 09:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
2. The "Early life" section is scattered and there's probably enough information out there to merit some expansion. Why did she change careers? Did she go to school (ie. college/university) and if so, where? Did she have any training as an actress before she got into films? You don't have to answer all of these questions, especially if the answers are not available, but these are the types of questions that can get you thinking about ways to expand the article.
3. In "Films," even if there were a good reason to directly quote, rather than summarize or place the quote among the footnotes, it shouldn't stand on its own in the middle of the article unless it's a block quote.  Erledigt Tovojolo 09:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
4. All one-two sentence paragraphs must either be expanded or merged with surrounding paragraphs, as they cannot stand alone.  Erledigt Tovojolo 09:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
5. Some statements require citations:

   Paragraphs 2 through 7 of "Films," especially since many of those contain statements that are potentially POV and OR.

   All of "Theatre," except for the quote that is already cited.

   All of "Television"

   Paragraphs 1 and 3 of "Personal life"

   Sentences 2 and 4 of "Honours" and pretty much everything else below that.

6. "Early life" and "Personal life" should probably be merged, since neither contain enough information to stand on their own.  Erledigt expanded both so that they stay separate. Tovojolo 00:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
7. One sentence cannot support a Level 3 header, never mind a Level 2 header as with "Death."  ErledigtTovojolo 18:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
8. Reference #2 needs to use a citation template or a similar format. ErledigtTovojolo 18:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

These are just the most pressing concerns — the article as a whole needs a lot of work. As per above, I will be failing the article, rather than putting it on hold. Once these concerns are addressed, it may be renominated. If you feel that this decision is in error, you may take it to WP:GAR. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 04:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Honours

Removed from the article. Please add it back when you have verifiable references. Please see WP:OR and WP:NPOV on why we cannot have it in the article.

The greatest honour we can do for Deborah Kerr on Wikipedia is to get her article first to GA Status and then to FA Status – we cannot do that with unreferenced data. Thanks, Tovojolo 22:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The campaign for a royal honour was begun almost immediately after Deborah Kerr received her Oscar, and was conducted by screenwriter Michael Russnow and Tea and Sympathy playwright and screenwriter Robert Anderson. Initially, they wrote to the Queen and were politely informed by Her Majesty's Private Secretary that the only person the Queen listens to is the Prime Minister. So, they wrote to the PM, and were essentially given bureaucratic thanks, as if to say, "We'll consider her."

Then, after a visit to Scotland, Russnow went up to Helensburgh, Kerr's long documented hometown and seeing the dearth of tributes to her in the town wrote to the Scottish Film Council, which elicited a letter from its retired chairman, David Bruce. One thing led to another and combined with Russnow's film connections generating letters from Daniel Taradash (From Here to Eternity), John Gay (Separate Tables), Larry Gelbart (M*A*S*H TV series and Tootsie), Ernest Lehman (The King and I) and the aforementioned Robert Anderson and the political muscle of Bruce's friend Minister for Film Tom Clarke, notice was taken. It was pointed out that Deborah Kerr after so many years as an illustrious film and stage figure had never been given so much as an MBE let alone the title Dame, which she sorely deserved.

However, the Ceremonial Secretariat, which runs the Honours Program in Britain and which indicates on its website that honours are not normally bestowed for those no longer in service, created a tremendous roadblock. Only by Clarke's intervention and the sense that, whatever the rules, it was absurd to have such a film legend ignored by her government and Queen was restitution made -- though only at the level of CBE (Commander of the British Empire). Russnow wrote to Clarke, thanking him, but wondered if Deborah Kerr did not deserve an honour given to the likes of Diana Rigg, Judi Dench, Helen Mirren and Julie Andrews. Clarke met with Russnow at Parliament and expressed interest, but admitted it would be difficult to get the deed done so soon. Plus, normally, further achievements are fulfilled for elevation to higher honours, such as in the case of Elton John CBE, who was made a knight in later years due to his work fighting AIDS.

Deborah Kerr was now ill and fragile and in no position to act again. The fact that the government had dropped the ball when she was at her height of fame in the fifties and sixties was not her fault. Yet the system was intransigent, despite letters to the editor in the Daily Telegraph, The Independent and the Evening Standard, the latter of which printed Russnow's letter of outrage towards the Ceremonial Secretariat under the banner: "Shame She's No Dame" and a big picture of Deborah and Burt Lancaster on the beach in "From Here to Eternity." However, it was not to be and she unfortunately remained a CBE.

The genesis of this was due to a campaign by screenwriter Michael Russnow, (IMDB) who wrote to numerous film colleagues of Miss Kerr such as Robert Anderson (screenwriter of Tea and Sympathy), Elia Kazan (Director of The Arrangement and Broadway version of Tea and Sympathy), Delbert Mann (director of Separate Tables), Jack Clayton, (director of The Innocents) and Fred Zinnemann, (Director of From Here to Eternity) all of whom wrote Russnow letters of thanks, indicating they had sent on letters to the Academy urging the bestowal of an Oscar to Miss Kerr.

It had taken three years and continued lobbying with Roddy McDowall, who was personally lobbying for his friend Vincent Price. But when Price died, Russnow reminded McDowell again at an industry function, and as he had now been elected a Governor of the Motion Picture Academy, he eloquently championed Deborah Kerr's case, and after his speech one of the other Governors moved that the nominations for other Honorees be closed. And so Deborah finally was awarded her due.

When she went out onstage she seemed hesitant and frail. There were some stunned looks by the audience as she grabbed presenter Glenn Close's arm and almost dropped the statue, during the longest standing ovation of the evening, one that also included tributes to Paul Newman and won Steven Spielberg his first Oscar. As it turned out, when the applause ended and her voice started shaky and unclear, she then put on her glasses and with a burst of energy shouted, "I've never been so frightened in all my life." She brought the house down with laughter. But until then, she just couldn't see where she was going with all the lights around her, and when she gained her bearings she came to life and gave a short, elegant moving address of thanks.

Failing health and move to England

The article leaves open-ended the following: Did she and her husband both move to England to be near her children, or did Kerr move and leave Viertel behind in Switzerland?204.126.251.49 23:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The article makes it clear that Deborah Kerr alone moved back to England. Her husband stayed on alone in Marbella, Spain. Source is provided in the article.

Tovojolo (talk) 20:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

GA review

All of the last review's concerns have been adressed plus every other minors i found i fixed them myself. Thanks for you work :) --- Yamanbaiia (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually they haven't because, without even having read my old concerns, I can point out that definitely a)The lead still fails to summarize the article per WP:LEAD (where's information on her film and TV work for example) and b)There are still several one-two sentence paragraphs. Cheers, CP 18:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Her most famous films were The King and I, An Affair to Remember and From Here to Eternity. I didn't thought her stage and TV work were worth mentioning. Would this: She also had a career in both stage and television. be good enough?

Also, the only short paragraph there is is the "television" section, apparently she didn't have a very prolific career in TV, so, if there's nothing more to say, then obviously the section will be short.

You are more experienced than i am CP so if you say fail, then fail it is. -- Yamanbaiia (talk) 18:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't say fail, as those are minor things. But I suggest that they be fixed before pass, which I guess since it's already passed, it's no big deal. I'll read over the whole article later and see if it's "good enough." Cheers, CP 19:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

RE: Stewart Granger/Deborah Kerr Affair

I understand that Mr Granger claimed this happened, in his autobiography, and instead of removing the entire sentence I have changed the word "revealed" to "claimed" in the Personal Life section. As I had pointed out in my reason for editing, it is a claim by ONE man! There is no independent information produced by anybody as yet to back up his claims. Therefore it is only proper to alert the readers of this article that it should only be seen as such. To call it a "revelation" is to call what had alledgedly happened to be true. People can claim anything in their autobiographies. If there is coroberating evidence to support Stewart Granger's claims then by all means provide it in the article. Tabloid-like phrasing that alludes to something that may or may not have happened, does not belong here. WikiphyteMk1 (talk) 07:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Usual pronunciation of Kerr

"the Scottish pronunciation of her surname usually sounds like "care""? Possibly the two words sound similar if pronounced by someone with a very strong Received Pronunciation accent, with the rolled "r" sound omitted and the "e" and "a" sounds barely distinguishable, but this sounds nothing like the Scottish pronunciation of Kerr: (/kɛr/). Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)