Talk:Elephant and Castle

The origin of the name is not correct. Arthur married Catharine of Aragon, who on his death married Henry(VIII). The Infanta de Castile was probably Elaenor of Castile, daugther of Ferdinand III, King of Castille. She married King Edward I of England.

"The name of the area is derived from the first wife of King Edward I, Eleanor of Castile. Queen Eleanor had been the Infanta of Castile. When she arrived in England this sounded, to the ears of Londoners like Elephant and Castle." Is this etymology attested to anywhere? Would 13th century Surreymen have known what an elephant was? Jperrylsu 16:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Belated reply; the above is a widely repeated urban myth and is completely untrue. The title "Infanta" was not in use in this period. – iridescent 18:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

This is urban myth - the name is derived from the Elephant and Castle coaching house which stood at the main junction between the Causeway, Butts, London Road and St George's Road. 89.168.113.135 (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC) Tony S

I have been in touch with the Southwark Local History Library and found out a lot of stuff about the toponymy of Elephant and Castle. Unfortunately I can find little to suppport it citation wise so I'm not going to risk sticking it all up. Here it is though:

Elephant and Castle has myriad folk toponymies, the most popular ascribing its naming to a mis-hearing of ‘Infanta de Castile’, an infant princess (probably Elaenor of Castile, daugther of Ferdinand III, King of Castille) who supposedly visited the area. However, the title "Infanta" was not in use in this period. Other popular folk toponymies involve elephants visiting from India and local residents having elephant based visions in the area. The actual provenance of the name is far less romantic. Elephant and castle was the name of a public house that formed the central hub of the area. Originally a farriers called The White Horse, the building (situated roughly where the Faraday monument stands today) became a public house named Elephant and castle in around 1765. Almost certainly, the change from farrier's to pub relates to the opening of New Kent Road under an Act of 1751. The evidence suggests that the change of function and name may have taken place as early as 1755. The first known pub landlord was called George Frost. The first known pub landlord was called George Frost. It may well be that he chose the new name at random, without the slightest thought of the tradition he was bringing into being. It is possible that he had previously lived near another pub of the name, or knew one elsewhere that he admired. But it could equally well be that he might have plumped for the Red Lion or the Six Bells, again without any 'reason'. They were all simply normal pub names. The sign is a fairly common one for pubs. There remains the remnant of another example at nearby Vauxhall (on the roof of the Starbucks, presumably a former Elephant and Castle pub) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=vauxhall&ie=UTF8&ll=51.487396,-0.122759&spn=0,359.986267&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.486441,-0.123805&panoid=GbU2lwqxC87VqqcrzmOzqg&cbp=12,165.95,,3,-5.23 .

From at least as early as the11th century, almost any depiction of an elephant - in carvings of wood or stone, and paintings as in bestiaries - always involved a 'castle'. In the simplest sense, this was just an elephantine version of a horse's saddle. A horse would normally have just one rider on a saddle, but an elephant could take several. In the mediaeval mind, in view of the use of elephants in warfare, the elephantine saddle inevitably became a 'castle'; in art, this element became more pronounced than it was in reality. The warriors did need protection, of course. And that reflection of the military use of elephants went back to Hannibal and perhaps beyond. The ancient Roman world was certainly well aware of the elephant in warfare, which was in turn translated into the conventional idea of the elephant and castle in the Middle Ages. From that time onwards, elephants were almost always depicted in that guise. Wk 85 (talk) 09:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I have seen old chess pieces in the form of an 'elephant and castle' (the pieces being used as the Rook or Castle, of course). I wonder if this was influential in spreading the motif?109.149.26.154 (talk) 15:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Ugly buildings?

I have never heard Hannibal House described as ugly. it's just a rectangular slab - soulless, boring but not hideous. Alexander Fleming House is different. Ian Fleming hated it so much that he used the name of its architect, Goldfinger, as the name of one of his villains. [1].--Londoneye 23:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Photos

We had much better photos than this. Where have they all gone? Secretlondon 06:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC) y —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.11.129 (talk) 22:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)