Talk:Intelligent design

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Unaffiliated publications

Actually there are a number publications in independent scientific editions supportive of ID (e.g. those online: Joseph A. Kuhn, “Dissecting Darwinism”, Baylor University Medical Center Proceedings, 2012, Solomon Victor and Vijaya M. Nayak, “Evolutionary anticipation of the human heart,” Annals of the Royal College of Surgeons of England, Solomon Victor, Vljaya M. Nayek, and Raveen Rajasingh, “Evolution of the Ventricles,” Texas Heart Institute Journal). The reference to Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District according to which "the intelligent design movement has not published a properly peer-reviewed article supporting ID in a scientific journal, and has failed to publish supporting peer-reviewed research or data" is prone to staling as various publications do appear since 2005. As such paraphrasing is needed IMO. Brandmeister^talk 23:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Uh...I think the issue here is, no offense, but you seem to not be grasping what real peer review is, or what would qualify something to be a professional scientific journal. I don't think a thing on your list would hold up to the rigors necessary to be one.Farsight001 (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I hardly think those could be disqualified as unreliable sources. If you don't agree, take them to WP:RSN. Brandmeister^talk 00:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

From the examples provided it remains obvious that "the intelligent design movement has not published a properly peer-reviewed article supporting ID in a scientific journal, and has failed to publish supporting peer-reviewed research or data." The key is actually doing the science, not just talking about it. The latter method has been out of favor for more than 400 years. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 00:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The first one, Kuhn "Dissecting Darwinism", the front page of Baylor University states "A top Texas Christian University." If this publication by that university is properly peer reviewed I'd eat a copy of it. What evidence do you have that this is peer reviewed or anyway credible in the scientific community? He makes the Irreducible Complexity argument in it, and states that life can't arise from non-life argument, all of which is demonstrably false. So that right there calls into question the legitimacy of the claim that it's peer reviewed. The second paper by Victor does talk about ID in it's conclusion some, but this is a Review article, review articles are not held to the same kind of standards as an actual paper, and likely wasn't peer reviewed. On the journal's home page it states it allows controversial topics, and as a review it could have some controversial material. But I HIGHLY doubt they would accept a research paper that stated their data showed evolution wasn't possible and ID was the only conclusion. There's a big difference between being published in this manor and publishing an actual research paper, should be obvious to anyone who's read a lot of journals I think. The third paper by Nayek is a editorial in a "journal" by the Christian organization "Texas Heart Institute", again hardly a rigorously peer reviewed journal, and even if it was it's an editorial not a research paper. — raekyt 00:10, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

And I'll be WP:BOLD enough to state, that if you want to use any of these as evidence to remove the statement from the trial, then it WILL have to go through RSN first.... — raekyt 00:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that's really inappropriate, Raeky. You have publicly stated here that a university's publication is disqualified because of it's confessional status. That's totally inappropriate, and shows the agenda that is motivating you. You cannot disqualify a peer-reviewed source from an accredited university because you don't like the religion of the university's management. I ask you to retract that and to remove your statement.

If these articles were peer-reviewed then claiming that no peer review has been done of this theory is wrong. We should therefore verify these articles as such, and then amend the Wikipedia entry. It doesn't mean claiming that this is a mainstream theory or commonly accepted (obviously it isn't), but facts are facts and again, this article is not for editorializing about anything. It is meant to inform the reader accurately about the topic, not to persuade him to take a particular position on an issue.

MatthewCHoffman (talk) 00:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

There's no reason to retract, the first is a journal from a christian school, that right there calls into doubt it's scientific status, then the content of the article calls into doubt their standards. The second is a review article, which generally are not peer reviewed, even in peer reviewed journals, reviews are not research papers, third is a editorial in journal from a christian organization, again that calls into doubt it's scientific status, and it's a editorial which is generally not peer reviewed like review articles, it's not a research article. You need to have a basic understanding of what a scientific journal is, anyone can claim their journal is scientific, claim it's peer reviewed, but that doesn't mean it holds any credit in the scientific community. That's why RSN will be necessary if you want to use any of these specific examples. — raekyt 00:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

And nobody has said the is because they "...don't like the religion of the university's management." A statement that is really uncalled for. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 00:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Again your statement that the Christian confession of an accredited university calls into question the scientific status of its publication is inappropriate. It violates Wikipedia policy, and is nothing more than an expression of unjust discrimination. If you don't retract, this is going to become a complaint. You cannot use Wikipedia to engage in this type of discrimination. Baylor is accredited. MatthewCHoffman (talk) 00:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Please link to this policy, thanks. — raekyt 00:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

LOL. Do you know the meaning of the word? Peer-review is not synonymous to being published. Creating your own journals like BIO-Complexity just to get "published", creating imaginary scientific-sounding institutions like "Department of ProtoBioCybernetics and ProtoBioSemiotics, Origin of Life Science Foundation, Inc." to give the illusion of decorated affiliations, or publishing in journals isolated from the rest of the scientific community (and only remotely connected to actual biology) is not "peer reviewed".

It's even hilarious how bad these are. Victor and Nayak's 2000 paper for example simply rehashes comparative anatomy and then nonsensically waxes philosophical quoting Da Vinci, citing the "Designer" as an a priori fact, and claiming that for a species to change they'd need microprocessor technology. LMAO. And it manages to consistently misspell Homo sapiens sapiens as a compound word Homosapiens sapiens.

And the most damning thing about this "peer-reviewed" article? FOURTEEN of the 18 references are also papers by Victor and/or Nayak. The references which aren't by the same authors are only tangentially related or completely unrelated at all (not to mention unscientific). The opposing views they sourced to an article on the National Geographic and on Darwin's original paper itself. And the remaining two? This is where it gets even more hilarious: a book on Indian mythology and the Holy Vedas.

That is not peer-review. That's circle-jerking. It's not even science.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:45, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Discrimination

Wikipedia:Discrimination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Discrimination

I quote: "Wikipedia and English Wikipedia should not give privilege in writing and freedom of speech, and expression, scientific inclusion, etc. to some in expense of others and will not tolerate promotion of discrimination through its content. Such rule stops or bans using any other rules included and existing in Wikipedia in discriminative manner.

"In discrimination notion is included any discrimination on base of: ... religion ..." MatthewCHoffman (talk) 01:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Please note that that is not a policy, but an essay, and a failed essay at that, so it carries with it almost no power, secondly what you bolded means we hold scientific value of this resource to be pretty high, and scientific value is what I'm promoting. It is perfectly acceptable to question the motives of a christian journal when it comes to evolution/ID topics and specifically if they publish the linked article it definitely calls into question the reliability of the source for scientific information. I don't know what your trying to pull, or if you just don't understand WP:DUE, WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE and the level of standards we generally expect for scientific journals, but these sources are not quality sources. The second one is the only journal I would even remotely consider as a valid scientific journal, but the article linked from it isn't a research article, and only minorly makes assertions of ID, and in any case would never be considered as evidence for ID with what was presented there. Since it's a review article it PROBABLY WASN'T peer reviewed, as is generally understood for scientific research articles. So again there is no reason to retract my comments, and your threats hold no weight and are potentially in violation of policy yourself. — raekyt 01:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I had to refer this to the administrators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Religious_discrimination_issue), but your open contempt for Wikipedia's clearly defined policy compelled me to do so. I asked you more than once to retract what you had stated or to delete it, but you refused. You don't have a license here to discriminate against Christian-identified universities that are nationally accredited like any other university. --MatthewCHoffman (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you look at the top of the page. There's a FAQ. See question #3.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 17:55, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

{e/c}Did you see the notices at the top of that page?

Template:essay Template:failed

You are correct that the Baylor journal is peer-reviewed. It's archived at NCBI. The author of that particular article, though, identifies it as a review. Hence, the purpose of this paper is to review the arguments that have been leveled against the concept of evolution as proposed by Charles Darwin and John Hunter, surgeon and biologist extraordinaire. [Break] Since this review is offered by a physician and surgeon. . . It doesn't seem to be a peer-reviewed paper. Yopienso (talk) 01:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Was basically my point, except after reading that paper I'd never trust that journal for a controversial evolution/creation type article since they allowed that to be published even as a review. But as I said, reviews and editorials do not go through the same peer review process as a research article and are not held to very high standards. So using these as arguments to remove the statement from the court ruling would not be sufficient. (also note Yopienso, I made those links to the templates so they wouldn't interfere here). — raekyt 01:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The creationist BS claim about the Kuhn paper is that it was "published in a peer-reviewed journal", which is deceptive, because although the journal does indeed publish real peer-reviewed papers, the Kuhn paper is not one of them. It is an editorial (Kuhn is on the editorial board of the journal), and certainly did not undergo any form of peer-review, as no original scientific research is being reported on. The fact that the journal is published by a Christian university is immaterial. Baylor is not a "Bible college" anymore, but has become a serious university with a fine reputation. The medical center is a top notch research facility. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 05:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

ID re creator

Ironically, the group here has pretended that ID is only the (DI) version which specifically avoids and has nothing in it regarding a creator. That tack seems to be backfiring or self-conflicting at the moment. North8000 (talk) 12:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

LOL. Hardly. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

LOL indeed. "which specifically avoids and has nothing in it regarding a creator." -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 17:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Was that not in fact the point of the DI version of ID.....to specifically leave out anything regarding a creator so as to be able to say that it is not religion? Also a point made in this article? North8000 (talk) 18:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC).

And the point made by the district court judge in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District was that that tactic was transparent deceptive. ID remains pretty much a religiously motivated movement. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree and Agree. But it has nothing about a creator. North8000 (talk) 18:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is a creator in ID; it's just not specifically called God. I guess my request that you (North8000) stop trying to steer every conversation toward this end was conveniently ignored. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 19:01, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

<ec> Nothing? "Phillip E. Johnson puts forward a core definition that the designer creates for a purpose, giving the example that in his view AIDS was created to punish immorality and was not caused by HIV, but such motives cannot be tested by scientific methods." You've got to watch what those cdesign proponentsists say. . . dave souza, talk 19:04, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Disagree at two levels. First, taken literally/ostensibly, creation is not a core tenet of ID, even though many of its proponents have that belief. Second, within what it posits/implies are other mechanisms besides creation for intelligent intervention/guidance in the process. North8000 (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

So, just to be clear, you're suggesting that the intelligent designer posited by ID "decided upon the look and functioning of [organisms on Earth], typically by making a detailed drawing of [them]," (Oxford English Dictionary) and then... gave it to someone else to create? -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 15:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

No I meant that it allows for beliefs such as guiding certain natural processes to arrive at what we see now rather than creating it. North8000 (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Then you're talking about theistic evolution, not ID; ID is meant to challenge evolution by positing that natural processes can't produce the organisms we observe on Earth. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 16:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree with the second part of your post. And if one notes (or agrees) that ID doesn't go much farther than what you just said, then such supports my original statement. ID allows for creation and non-creation "interventions" and thus does not dictate/narrow to only creation ones. North8000 (talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a change to the article that you'd like to propose? GaramondLethe 17:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The ID article should cover ID as a whole, and, more to the point, not imply that it is limited to the DI version. But I have temporarily given up on that except to make a few occasional comments (especially when the current error presents such quandaries) like that one that started this thread. North8000 (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

So, no. Also, how's that stick? -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 18:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Quit the crap. The situation is nowhere near what you are trying to imply by that baseless link. And escalating a low key conversation into something else by injecting insults into it is really bad behavior. North8000 (talk) 19:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You brought an edit proposal to this Talk page and it was rejected, but you continue to make comments about it in completely unrelated sections for no other reason than to vent your frustration. What else would you call that?

From WP:STICK:

• If you have "lost" – sorry, hard luck. Now go about your business; don't keep reminding us of the fact that your "opponent" didn't actually "win" because of... whatever.
• If the debate died a natural death – let it remain dead. It is over, let it go. Nobody cared except you. Hard to stomach, but you're going to have to live with it.

-- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 19:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

My previous comment applies, including on your further mis-representation of the situation. I'm not engaging further on the crappy insult-based level reflected in your posts. North8000 (talk) 19:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Signing off on this thread. North8000 (talk) 19:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Deja vu

We've been here before, at length. The Kuhn paper is nonsense and wasn't peer reviewed, there may be useful sources there on some of the other proposed papers. . . dave souza, talk 18:27, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Are all the sources used in this article peer reviewed? If a source isn't peer reviewed, does that automatically make it "nonsense"? What is it about the Kuhn paper that makes it "nonsense"? Cla68 (talk) 22:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Cla68, no, the lack of peer review doesn't make an article nonsense--that was a personal judgment--and peer-review is not a Wikipedia requirement for inclusion of a source. However, the particular claim this source intends to contradict is that "[t]he intelligent design movement has not published a properly peer-reviewed article supporting ID in a scientific journal, and has failed to publish supporting peer-reviewed research or data." As an editorial, the Kuhn paper would be sufficient for his opinion on ID/evolution, but since he is not a professional in a relevant field it cannot be cited for more than this purpose (and since Kuhn is a non-figure in the "controversy," I don't see why his opinion would merit inclusion anyway). -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 14:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Absolute Chaos

I've spent the last 24 hours trying to make any one of dozens of simple edits that would improve this hopelessly disjointed and inaccurate article, and it's like trying to help 1,000 bickering cooks make a pot of soup. The entire Wikipedia editing process is unmanageable for an article this small. I could spend a year arguing and undoing changes with an endless parade of petty noodlers and not succeed in making a single successful change. This article is an absolute mess of inaccuracies and bad writing, and nobody is able to do anything. This is complete GRIDLOCK. This is absolute CHAOS. Everyone contributing to this article should be EMBARRASSED. We're all wasting our time. This article is a joke and so are all of these thousands of little ignorant, petty arguments about minutiae. This is a FAILED process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zyx1xyz (talk • contribs) 23:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Try making a suggestion here on the talk page about what you want to change. Cla68 (talk) 23:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) I'm sorry you're frustrated. Wikipedia actually works quite well. You need patience. If you want to write your own article on ID, feel free to do so elsewhere. If you wish to help with this one, you must follow Wikipedia policy. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

|}

Please, Zyxqxyz, just make a suggestion here about what you want to change. Cla68 (talk) 23:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Promulgation link

After someone edited the lead sentence to include a dictionary link for the word "promulgated", I replaced it with the close-enough synonym "promoted" - if a word is obscure enough that we think some readers will need to pause and look it up in a dictionary, and if it's not a technical term that's a significant aspect of the article subject, I think we should try to avoid using it in the WP:LEADSENTENCE.

This was reverted with the explanation that the verb was "sourced to appease one particular editor who didn't seem to understand that words have different contexts", which seems to refer to this conversation. Putting a clunking great wiktionary link in the first sentence of a featured article to appease one Wikipedia editor seems like a bad idea. If the consensus genuinely is just "one editor didn't know what this meant" then we should unlink it, but if consensus is actually that "many readers won't understand this word in this context", wouldn't a synonym or a rewrite be better? --McGeddon (talk) 09:07, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd be astonished if John Q Public didn't understand the word, nor do I think anyone would confuse it for its obscure legal meaning. Removing the link doesn't seem problematic. Sædon^talk 09:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree. This is not Simple English Wikipedia, and the word "promulgate" is better than "promote" here, and it's hardly an obscure word. I've removed the link. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Could we please, instead of impulsively revert warring, discuss article changes we don't agree with? Notice that once a few editors paused to talk it over, it was resolved fairly easily and amicably. Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I think perhaps a different word might be something to consider here. I added the Wiktionary link after someone had tried to wikilink the word promulgate to the legal definition on Wikipedia, and this isn't the first time. I think even though we may understand the verb and believe it common enough for others, the repeated edits "defining" this term via wikilink is a good indication that many readers don't understand it. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 14:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Promulgate has a broader meaning which is think is better here. It includes the initial "broadcast" of written items and thus also usually the creation of the item. North8000 (talk) 15:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Possible synonyms are not as specific and do not carry the connotation of origination. Again, the word is common enough that any college freshman should know it, or else better learn it pdq, and that is the language level we should be aiming at. Trying to explain the history of the topic using baby-talk is fine, but not here. That's what Simplified English Wikipedia is for. We are not doing our readers a disservice here by making them reach for a dictionary. Does a body good. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

We aren't just restricted to picking one perfect synonym, of course - we can recast the sentence as much as we like ("a form of creationism posited and promoted by the Discovery Institute", perhaps). "Promulgated" sounds somewhat archaic to my British ear, and feels slightly outside the "style used by reliable sources" of WP:TONE, particularly in the lede where "It is even more important here than in the rest of the article that the text be accessible". --McGeddon (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Polls

I've removed the following from the Polls section:

A May 2005 survey of nearly 1500 physicians in the United States conducted by the Louis Finkelstein Institute and HCD Research showed that 63% of the physicians agreed more with evolution than with intelligent design.

The description of the poll results is the reverse of what the citation actually says, and it doesn't seem relevant to the article. If anyone thinks it's worthwhile to have, please go ahead and correct it.WmGB (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you. Doctors are not experts in the fields of either philosophy or evolutionary biology. It's a bit ironic to think about, but I learned years ago that doctors do not necessarily have the qualifications to talk about the more basic aspects and implications of biology, which is honestly a little scary. Sædon^talk 22:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

{e/c}

That's exactly what the poll reported: "Results of a national survey of 1,472 physicians revealed that more than half of physicians (63%) agree that the theory of evolution is more correct than intelligent design."

My question is if the article should note that Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant doctors were polled, showing Protestant doctors far more open to ID. However, the "report" I linked to is just an incomplete summary. How many Jewish doctors were polled? how many Catholic? how many Protestant? how many of other faiths? how many of no declared religion? (None?) Yah, so I just convinced myself you deleted meaningless trivia; thanks. Yopienso (talk) 23:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Also worth noting is the long-term intentional bias of the Finkelstein institute, which is a think tank to promote religious perspectives. Hardly a credible source for an article about a religious concept. i kan reed (talk) 14:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Wait a minute Ikanreed. If Intelligent Design is a religious concept, then wouldn't a think tank that focuses on religious perspectives be subject matter experts on the philosophy? So, shouldn't their opinion be desired as a source for an article on this topic? Cla68 (talk) 00:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Poll results are significantly affected by their wording. Also, polls in Wikipedia articles are almost always specially selected to make a particular view. North8000 (talk) 21:40, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

No, they shouldn't. I didn't say they were subject matter experts. I said that they actively supported a particular perspective, and haven't got a history of unbiased publication in this arena. Those are very different things, and there's no way to take what you said as anything but an intentionally disingenuous misreading of what I said. Don't do that, please. It wastes so much time on talk pages when everyone goes around misinterpreting what others are saying. Then you can't have a real conversation at all. i kan reed (talk) 13:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Non-Neutral POV

This is clearly written by a cabal of editor dedicated to smearing ID; the same issue is found consistently on every other wiki page relating to ID. This is exceptionally obvious when comparing wiki ID articles to the one on New World Encyclopedia. I cite coverage of ID anytime someone claims wiki is as accurate as other encyclopedias. Let's fix this issue and improve wikipedia. 74.132.169.132 (talk) 03:33, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

You forgot to mention that the New World Encyclopedia is an encyclopedia with a Unification Church POV. Being a secular encyclopedia, we do not represent a religious POV, but rather the POV of reliable sources. In the case of ID that means scientific sources and as cursory research will demonstrate, ID is wholly rejected by the scientific community. Sædon^talk 04:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Saedon, we aren't supposed to present any POV, either pro- or anti- ID. In order to do that, I think we should present this topic, first, as its adherents see it, then present opposing opinions. The Encyclopedia Brittanica entry on ID is, IMO, a good example of an NPOV treatement on this topic. Anyway, 74.132.169.132, it's probably more helpful if you present a specific passage or statement in the article you don't feel is NPOV, and we can start with that. Cla68 (talk) 04:33, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Hi IP. The New World Encyclopedia is a project organized by the Unification Church and the late Sun Myung Moon. As such it's similar to projects such as Conservapedia and Creationwiki in that edits must conform to a particular non-neutral point of view. That said, is there anything in particular you'd like to see brought over from that article?

Second Assistant Undersecretary of the Cabal, GaramondLethe 04:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Heh, kind of funny. I decided to check out the ID talk page on NWE and found this comment by a user named kgreen: "The article on Intelligent Design is an example of poor scholarship. You might as well just put a link to Discovery Institute’s own version of what they are, even though they have been shown to be dishonest. Do your articles on North Korea show happy children and well-fed adults toasting the Dear Leader?" That about sums up why we should never be compared to them. Not as long as interesting as our talk pages, but there are a few wtf comments to check out. And say what you want about NWE, but at least they allow outside input (unlike Stalinopedia Conservapedia). Sædon^talk 04:35, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Saedon, when it comes to welcoming outside input, I don't always see much of difference between editors here and staff at Conservapedia. Cla68 (talk) 04:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what problem you have with that edit, nor the summary, wrong link? But to answer your inquiry, you can start with the "create account" link that is always on and doesn't require admin approval vs. the fact that unless you have a strictly rightwing Christian POV you can't be a Conservapedia editor (my only account there was blocked when I pointed out that the theory of relativity has no ethical implications whatsoever, but Shafley isn't exactly all there). This is, of course, getting off topic, but I'm happy to discuss on my talk. Sædon^talk 04:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

The core of the problems is a structural one where the article conflicts not only with reality and the common meaning of the term but even with itself. And that is to incorrectly and artificially define ID as consisting only of the variant promoted by the Discovery Institute. This fault enables POV editors to incorrectly present the ID concept as wholly a political maneuver rather than the general concept at the core of a range of beliefs that it actually is. I tried bringing this up but got shouted away by the group that is guarding this article. They avoided the core logic of the argument and instead shouted me away via essential repeating a bunch of bogus non-germane chants. So I'm pretty sure that it will take more eyes from outside of the guard group here to fix this article. North8000 (talk) 10:35, 12 September 2012 (UTC)