Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User check : RobertRosen

It all started with our differing views on the reliability of a source here. I resorted to WP:RSN to seek expert advice. User:TheBlueCanoe intervened and opined that the source concerned is reliable, wikipedia per se. On reflection, I found that clauses such as WP:SPS too would apply if at all RobertRosen's views were taken seriously and I stated the same to him. RobertRosen kept spouting Wikipedia lingo such as WP:AGF and WP:RS and refused to give in to any of my points. He further went on defacing the article with edits such as this. That worried me and made me look up RobertRosen's history to check his intentions. I found instances such as this, thisand this which smeared my assumed good faith on RobertRosen. Sneakily removing sourced material with misleading edit summaries, removing sourced content falsely stating that it is unsupported : his edit history revealed such tendencies. Further check on Aruna Roy's history brought to light his other edits([1] 2 & 3) which have removed relevant and sourced material such as Aruna's featuring in Time's list of influential people. Maybe a pattern would emerge if all his contributions are scrutinized. The user keeps asking me to take it to his talk page, but I doubt if that would be worth my time and energy. Need administrator intervention. _morelMW^illiam 09:28, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:SPI please. GiantSnowman 09:38, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Wikipedia should be a reliable encyclopedia sourced from authentic and non-POV sources in so far as BLP articles are concerned. So yes, I do "tend" to remove information on BLPs till they are properly sourced and re-written by editors interested in the subject. I am primarily a Wikipedia reader/user and not a Wikipedia editor. The present dispute is about personal biographical information about a living person Aruna Roy. I had repeatedly asked the complainant to take it to the ARTICLE TALK PAGE since there were only 2 editors involved. I also advised him that WP:3 is the place to go if he wanted a third opinion. Instead he has brought a content dispute to WP:ANI within the space of a few hours and without any independent editors being allowed to participate. For instance, User:TheBlueCanoe gave his opinion before I had even properly stated my case. If insisting on strict adherence to WP policies is a crime, then please dub me a SP and throw me out of WP. RobertRosen (talk) 09:55, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I can't think of any socks. I had to take it to ANI as the problem is not with this one instance, but many, as supported by the disturbing instances cited in my first post. User:TheBlueCanoe did respond after RobertRosen's reply, which still wasn't a favourable one for RobertRosen. This user has a flawed understanding of WP policies and his editing should be monitored closely to prevent him from defacing further articles. _morelMW^illiam 10:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Oops, my bad - your talk of "user check" and "patterns" threw me, I thought you were talking about socking. I'll try and have a proper look if I find time. GiantSnowman 10:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. This is another instance that makes me question his sound knowledge of WP policies. Controversies should be removed from a BLP article only when they form the main content, if I am not wrong. Or am I wrong? _morelMW^illiam 10:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think you (MorelMWilliam) are. You're edit warring, not using the article talk page, not responding to a good faith notice place on your talk page, and running off to noticeboards. You're escalating the situation very quickly, and posting to ANI concurrently with RSN. Digging through an editor's history to find "evidence" of past misdeeds isn't really helpful, especially when at some of the links you provide don't really hold up. For example, RobertRosen made some edits to Arindam Chaudhuri with reasonable edit summaries, which were reverted by another editor; RR did not edit war (a third editor repeated some of the trimming). This discussion should be taken to the talk page. Going to RSN to get additional viewpoints is fine, but it's more helpful to give it time to allow other editors to comment rather than going back and forth with another editor. I don't see any need for admin action here. Nobody Ent 11:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

@MorelMWilliam, Just FYI, what I removed on Salman Khurshid was clearly within the scope of WP:LBL. Let me also say that while I respect CONTRIBUTORS like you who add information ("WP is not a paper encyclopedia"), WP also needs those few remaining EDITORS like me who clean up afterwards. So chill and have mutual respect. RobertRosen (talk) 11:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC).

@Nobody WP:BLPREMOVE and WP:AVOIDVICTIM support the addition of well sourced contentious material against Salman Khurshid as they don't garner undue weight in his article. As regards the Arindham Chaudhuri link, RobertRosen deleted the entire content rather than changing it to the way supported by the source. I chose not to take things on my own hands and took it to notice boards for outsider opinion. Besides, all your concerns are that I took it to ANI and not go by talk page disputes, then a 3rd party intervention and then an another step before I get here. Look at the amount of junk that is there on WP:RSN for addition of simple and non contentious facts in an article! Most of his edits, other than today's, have something to do with people/ organisations involved in India Against Corruption movement, and I see a pattern there. His edits are usually content removal, a lot of them of a not so sound judgement. When contacted, he comes forward with wikipedia rules that don't apply. A rollback of some sort for his edits is what I see necessary, and that needs an administrator! _morelMW^illiam 12:10, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The Roy bio cited is SPS originally from [2] and the rmaf site is simply copying material as a copyright violation of the SPS material <g>. Pretty clear and convincing copyvio in fact, thus unuable for two separate and distinct absolute rules of Wikipedia. I did not check other issues, but that particular one should be laid to rest. Collect (talk) 12:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

All American Speakers website which has her 'bio' cited lists no author. This website sources content that are on public domain. Such as Jesse Jackson's bio copied from here. So it is not an SPS, but rather RMAF's content mirrored by All American Speakers. _morelMW^illiam 12:44, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

In the ongoing WP:RSN discussion, RobertRosen has veered off to conspiracy theorists' territories. His key points include

• Ramon Magsaysay Award Foundation is biased to further American Interests as it is administered by Rockefeller Foundation and Ford Foundation.

• Vigil Online, a non notable think tank, authors books that are more reliable than most of the sources here that meet WP:RS.

• He is a self-styled 'door-keeper' who claims that it is because of him "that text from books from "their" side NOR "your" side get through WP's policies and into BLPs".

• He thinks because he knows many books that go "pornographic" when talking about personal details of Aruna Roy, Ramon Magsaysay Award Foundation's biography by an experienced filipino journalist Lorna Kalaw-Tirol is unreliable.

• He asks editors to read his Indian conspiracy theorists like Arundhati Roy sending me links to her criticism pieces such as this to become more 'informed'.

• He claims that the personal details of Aruna Roy supported by RMAF is contentious citing a few blogs.

It is now very clear that he subscribes to such ideologues and defaces articles with his wikilawyering. _morelMW^illiam 05:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

MorelMWilliam, if you describe another editor as 'defacing' an article one more time, when what you mean is 'editing it in a way I don't like' I will block you under WP:NPA. This appears to be nothing but a content dispute, and I recommend it be closed before such an outcome occurs. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Elen of the roads, did you read my entire post? It is not a content dispute; this user uses his personal research and unreliable/ shifty sources to support his wikilawyering. This RobertRosen has taken over Aruna Roy and many other wiki articles related to India Against Corruption and removes well referenced content citing their differences with his own knowledge supported by unreliable sources. Here are a few instances.

• He believes(1 & 2) that Aruna Roy and Sanjit Roy were never married. However, it is supported by multiple sources such as this and this.
• I found that a different version of the text under dispute was added by an administrator Ekabhishek in 2009. The same was removed by RobertRosen in 2011 stating that version to be copied in entirety from the source.

I am tired citing instances showing his bad judgement and I wonder if the above is not defacing, then what is! _morelMW^illiam 19:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't use my personal knowledge, my personal research or dubious sources to add (or delete) material to WP article space. That would be WP:NOR. My Indian BLP niche edits are usually of the "delete immediately without waiting for discussion" variety and strictly in terms of WP:BLP, WP:V etc.

Secondly, in 22.02.2011 I removed (as a COPYVIO) article text [3] from Aruna Roy which stated that she and Sanjit/Bunker Roy "are not separated". Today User:MWilliam tried to rope the editor/admin "Ekabhishek" whose text I deleted into this dispute to support him at WP:ANI. However, 1 of MorelWilliam's own 2 new sources which he relies on to show they were married ALSO says that they "are separated".

Thirdly, I would ask User:MWilliams to understand Sanjit Roy's carefully nuanced statement (in the 2nd reference he provided) "In India I'm always Aruna Roy's husband."

Fourthly MWilliams is not even allowed to post such an ANI because he did not discuss this incident on my talk page and considering that I had immediately posted a courtesy message on his talk page asking him to do so after I (once) reverted his edits for purely technical reasons.

This is a content dispute and nothing else. The complainant is insistent on inserting a poorly sourced, copyrightvio'ed and controversial text into a BLP and is stalking me to achieve it. Can somebody please close this discussion, and/or get User:MWilliams to stop stalking me, repeatedly examining and maligning my editing style (and despite being advised not to do so by 4 neutral admins), calling for a WP:CU for me without any basis, and dismissively bypassing each and every conventional WP dispute resolution process so as to malign me. RobertRosen (talk) 10:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

• Firstly(sic), this is NOT A CONTENT DISPUTE.
• Secondly(sic), this IS A COMPLAINT AGAINST YOUR EDITING STYLE and nothing else.
• Thirdly(sic), I am NOT STALKING YOU. I am just not that into you, okay? By the way, did you happen to land on Ekabhishek's talk page just like that?
• Sanjit Roy's statement implies that he is relatively unknown in India, other than for the fact that he is Aruna's husband. What did you understand? You have now come to believe that they are separated from your earlier stand that they were never married.
• You should seek advice from WP:RSN before you remove a source from a page. If it is you who regards a source dubious, then it is your personal knowledge / personal research. I didn't come up lived in sin because of their brehman - low life unconventional mixed marriage. Do you have a reliable source for that? _morelMW^illiam 13:38, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

On reviewing the editing at Aruna Roy for the past 2 years, I find that an anon IP band 117.xxx.xxx.xxx geo-resolving to BSNL in Rajasthan State in India, has been persistently trying to include personal biographic details of her to the article. I am not the only editor to have reverted this text/anon User:Materialscientist(an Admin) also did so on 22.Feb.2012 and so did User:Jargon777 on 25.May.2012. Curiously MWilliams is going to extraordinary lengths to reinsert much of the same (now seemingly self published) material which was removed by Materialscientist and by me (twice) as say on 10.Oct.2011 much after the text was added by MWilliams on 30.Aug.2011. So its not the first time this very text was added by Mwilliams and removed by me about 2 months later. So the sequence goes like this --> On 22.feb.2011 I remove the disputed text which I noticed after removing a patently COPYVIO image from flickr (which image also repeatedly gets reinserted back on this page), MWilliams adds the text back on 30.Aug.2011. I remove it 2 months later, then the anon IP replaces it and MaterialScientist removes it immediately. Then Mwilliams puts it back and I revert it immediately. It may also be relevant that Aruna Roy's organisation the "MKSS" is based in Rajasthan and she was also involved with a "Barefoot University" there. RobertRosen (talk) 17:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

What's happening is a slow-moving edit-war, and just because it's 2 months apart doesn't make it any better, or any less of an edit-war...WP:BRD still applies. However, if you're suggesting some form of "undercover" or covert operations going on, then you'd better take a very quick re-read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL and realign your manner of thinking as the hints, suggestions, and almost accusations above are inappropriate (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

@Bwilkins, I respectfully beg to state it differently. Somebody is repeatedly attempting to violate WP:NPOV on this WP:BLP by inserting a specific set of controversial text including concerning the subject's marital status and parentage. The article subject herself is a controversial personality much in the news. Several independent and neutral editors (including an Indian WP:Admin and a WP:Rollbacker from Toronto) have stopped him/them on technical grounds. None of us (incl. me) have problems with the content per se, we had always removed/rollbacked it for technical reasons. None of us rollbackers (as far as I can make out) have added any significant material to the article. Because of the glacial pace (and the anon IP), we could not see the pattern earlier.

WP:DR I have not contacted those other 2 editors or involved them. I had put a message on MWilliam's talk page asking him to discuss it, either on my talk page or the article talk page but he unilaterally chose to bring it to WP:RSN without any discussion saying "I would rather spend time adding valuable content on the article space than chit chat with you upholding niceties such as politeness, good faith and courtesy." and also "This discussion would be moved to the article's talk page once resolved. Let us get to WP:DR when there is a dispute. Like when both of us believe that earth is flat". He then came to WP:ANI to escape from the ongoing WP:RSN discussion which later went against him. RobertRosen (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I've also just discovered that "MWilliams" has also complained about this/me to the BLP notice board [4] and neglected to inform me or place the "blp-dispute" tag on the article's talk page. RobertRosen (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, I also find that MWilliams has moved all his controversial talk page content to archives, and in the period when this slow "edit-warring" first began ie. Feb-July 2011 he had been indulging in massive copyvios and was "blocked" for disruptive editing. It also seems from his archive he had another user name, ... which I've now discovered resolves to former SockPuppeteer "Manorathan" [5]. [6]. RobertRosen (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

In view of the above. I would like to try and resolve this "one-on-one" with User:MonelMWilliams, and see if he promises to reform and be a "good boy" at Wikipedia in future. I'm not a vindictive person and believe there is good in everyone and ultimately we are working towards the same goal. RobertRosen (talk) 21:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Holy crap ... and now you'll only resolve it if he "promises to reform and be a 'good boy'"? Can you be any more condescending? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

In a perfect world, suggesting that another editor "promise to be a good boy" would result in a quick and lengthy block. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

To another "editor" yes. Not when addressed to an incorrigible sock who has regularly continued to disruptively edit and abuse several editors besides me after being unblocked. RobertRosen (talk) 11:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

@RobertRosen : You are delusional and are distorting the facts.

• The WP:RSN didn't turn against me. It was in fact the opposite.
• User MaterialScientist removed ([7]2) unsourced content.
• User Jargon777 removed unsourced text in unrecognised script.
• The anon IP DID NOT replace my text. It was unsourced and possibly of original research.
• How do their edits build the case in your favour? You have forgotten that the sourced text that you removed (first instannce) was added by an administrator Ekabhishek. So the correct sequence : an administrator adds well sourced text, you remove it with a dubious accusation stating that it violates some copyright, I reword it and add it back with the supporting source, then you remove it again which I discover only a year later and then I add it back only to be blanked again by you, which lead us here.
• You claim the well referenced text removed by you to be controversial. Which notable source supports you other than your personal research? You claim the subject to be controversial. What do you mean by that? Where are the sources to support that?
• Don't try to link yourself with those independent and neutral editors. Their technical grounds were different; while yours is a plain abuse of WP:BLP to remove contents without discussion the text that one personally finds poorly sourced, theirs was removing unsourced content. So, stop using us!

And dearie, stop showering this much love on me. You would make my doggie jealous. Stay content with my blown kiss. _morelMW^illiam 04:11, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It is very clear that you are not prepared to reform despite being given a 2nd chance. You have continued to indulge in uncivil disruptive editing such as here [8] with former admin "BoingSaidZebedee, and [9] where you abused another editor in the following terms "You don't get it. What I have been asking from the beginning is to add their claims to be Kshatriyas, for which there are many sources. You should perhaps tune up your ability to comprehend. Go back and read my posts on the article talk page". I'm very sorry to say that you were found to be a socker and you continued to behave in a disruptive fashion thereafter with editors other than me. In the past 5 months the only 2 article pages you have worked on were those on which I had removed CONTROVERSIAL POORLY SOURCED AND COPYRIGHTED BLP material. So you are stalking me. Insofar as WP:REFORMED is concerned, charges of further disruptive behaviour can be leveled on the Admin Notice Boards. RobertRosen (talk) 05:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, they are all in my archives for everyone to see. But where is your homework on what this discussion is about, especially the points raised in my previous post? I don't see anything further about Aruna's marriage or her alleged marriage as you like calling it. _morelMW^illiam 06:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Now why would one reword a threat? _morelMW^illiam 08:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, calling another editor "delusional" should be an immediate NPA block. That's simply uncalled for. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Did you read the rest of the post to see why I call him delusional? Distorting the facts and spinning his own version abusing the tendency here to not verify anything, what else is that? Here is an ADMINISTRATOR that finds hidden personal motives behind his disruptive editing. And he uses the word defacing when referring to RobertRosen's contributions. _morelMW^illiam 02:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter why you called him that, it's a flat insult. Trying to excuse it doesn't change the problem. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

This is continuous harassment and trolling. THAT was what Ekabhishek said BEFORE I commented on his talk page, THIS is what he says now [10] RobertRosen (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I repeat, this is not harassment/ trolling. This is a genuine concern on your editing style and the motives(such as (this) that are driving you to commit these acts. Are you still over me? Shall we get back to what this discussion is about, because that is not helping you in any way. For starters, what do you think now about Aruna Roy's marriage? And about Ekabhishek's diplomatic statement, he didn't reclaim his remark on your acts or personal motives, did he?_morelMW^illiam 05:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Both of you, drop it for now. Arguing back and forth is helping neither of your cases. Either an admin will weigh in or (more likely) this will fall into the archives because no one feels it ecessary to intercede. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm inappropriately interjecting here, but my thoughts are these: this discussion has been plagued by incivility and personal attacks from both persons. Based on the dialogue, I think this issue is just a personal conflict that arose from a content dispute. Each of you is doing your damnedest to demonize the other and point out their flaws while refusing to acknowledge your own. What you need to do (and what you should have done in the first place) is actively try to solve this. First, discuss this in talk. You need some kind of common ground. Forget about what's been said. If you can't be nice, at least be civil, and present your argument based on policy. If your argument is questioned, explain it, and try to understand the other person's rationale, even if you don't agree with it. Ultimately, you're trying to find consensus of some kind. It might not work out, and that's when you go to WP:DRN. There, you repeat the process with the help of more editors. If no consensus can be reached among this larger constituency, then you can come to AN/I for administrator input. You've jumped the gun here and avoided communication in favor of a quick resolution based on the assumption that you're right and the other guy's wrong. For any kind of solution to be reached, you're going to have to go through the proper steps and make a concerted effort to resolve this on your own. I hope you can make that happen. Coppaar (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I started a discussion in the Article's talk page. Hope the discussion proceeds in a mature way. _morelMW^illiam 05:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

There is no way that I am NOW going to discuss Aruna Roy with this user. From the very beginning I asked him to discuss it on the article's talk page and go through all the standard hierarchial DRs if necessary. Now after his vexatious litigation and considering he forced me to winkle out his past track record as a disruptive sock it is impossible for me to discuss anything with him in GOOD FAITH. Unlike MWilliams I have no "ownership" issues with any page. It makes no difference to me if vandals screw the encyclopedia because all the good editors are sleeping. I am already an Admin (and a super-Admin) at far superior information resources which only have properly verified editors (we don't let in riff-raff) and I don't give a f*** what happens here anymore. RobertRosen (talk) 10:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

English language proficiency of User:B767-500

User:B767-500 has a long history of warnings about their english language proficiency. I am not sure if there are any other serious issues with this editor. is there a way to politely let them know that contributing to WP requires a language proficiency that matches the tasks selected? i have edited foreign language WP's, but usually adding images, or links, but no sentences, etc.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Having had a look over their talk page, it's apparent that their language proficiency is well below the par that we expect for editing of any level on this 'pedia. I'm sure they're trying hard to contribute but unfortunately their competence is seriously lacking and it's been a bone of contention over the last several years. Blackmane (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget to notify the other party when you post at ANI. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Looking at messages to this user, it appears that they have been sufficiently informed about their limited proficiency in English but have done nothing to address or even acknowledge the need. A sample of their edits shows a lack of English skill that significantly diminishes any possible benefit to their contributions. --Kinu ^t/_c 00:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

This indicates that the problem isn't just their ability to speak English (they dumped a load of printers pie onto the talkpage). Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry that was joke after too many of beverages and I already removing the junk text. --B767-500 (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Do we have any clue, and I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, where the editor is from/what their native language is? I agree, this is an issue; directing them to the appropriate language encyclopedia, I think, is going to be the best solution. Go Phightins! 03:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

On their talk page, it was suggested that Thai may have been their first language but a reply implied that Thai may be a second language. At at guess, their first language could be south asian or I could be completely way off. Blackmane (talk) 10:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Would it be possible for a CU to find the underlying IP used, then Geolocate the IP, find out the location/language - and then we know where to begin. GiantSnowman 10:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I already living in U.S. (California) due to asylum. --B767-500 (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Where are you originally from? Go Phightins! 03:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

We have some bad government which they going to mess up my family, so identity of country cannot be talk about it. My people got no home country. --B767-500 (talk) 06:51, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

GS, horrible idea, we don't use CU to reveal private information about editors (even if done in good faith). NE Ent 18:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Holy shit. I had to reread that several times just to make sure he actually suggested that. Unbelievable. Joefromrandb (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The political situation, or anything else other than his issue of language ability, is moot. No matter how badly he may want to (and that is still in question) contribute to the encyclopedia, his lack of skills with English keep him from doing that. No matter how much a man may want to work at Deja Vu, he lacks the basic qualification. The same goes for this editor. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Even as a bouncer? Tijfo098 (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I working part time as ID check guy, so I can involved those kinds of jobs ;-). --B767-500 (talk) 23:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but at this point I would recommend a WP:COMPETENCE block. Go Phightins! 23:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Violation of topic ban by User:DeknMike

User:DeknMike was banned on 22 May 2012 from all content related to Messianic Judaism and related topics for one year on as per here. With this edit, he clearly violated that ban. It is a comparatively minor matter, admittedly, but it does violate the ban. To my eyes, personally, the fact that he was even watching the pages he has been banned from to make the edit at all is as troubling as the edit itself. I believe a block is called for under the circumstances, but am not sure that, as the person who requested the ban in the first place, I am myself necessarily in a position to determine the appropriate length. John Carter (talk) 17:24, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Is this a joke? First asking for a ban and now trying to hammer him for an small layout matter? This looks like harrassing and following around. The Banner _talk 17:33, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, a block is not called for. The ban was for POV pushing, and the edit was a column tweak. Prudent? No. A technical violation? Yes. A bad faith edit? Don't see how. NE Ent 17:34, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, this was rather hastily shut down, perhaps because John Carter slightly mis-stated the issue in question. but the issue wasn't dealt with. DeknMike's topic ban was quite clear: "User:DeknMike is topic banned from Messianic Judaism and related pages for one year. He is allowed to participate in discussion on the talk page but may not edit the parent article or any related articles". The ban was not for "content related to Messianic Judaism and related topics" - rather it was editing those articles. DeknMike is quite well aware that this applies to any edits he makes; in the past, when he's tried this kind of thing before, he's been notified and reverted himself. He's engaging in breaching experiments: trying to see exactly what he can get away with. The question here is whether to give a final warning, or to sanction. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Since you reverted my closure, I'll restate what I said there: de minimis non curat praetor. To block someone over such an edit is process wonkery at its finest. Call it IAR, call it commonsense, this thread should be closed now. By the way, if DeknMike (talk · contribs) were to be blocked over that edit, I would immediately unblock. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 20:17, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Threatening to start a wheel war? That doesn't seem like prudent administrative behavior. Rather than escalating this, why not step back for a bit and look at the bigger picture: Wikipedia is filled with people who receive topic bans, and a certain percentage of them engage in breaching experiments, trying to see just how far they can break the terms of their ban before people are willing to take action. This, of course, wastes the time of others who then have to wade through these edits, trying to decide exactly how far the person has violated his ban, and whether it is worth pursuing - which is, of course, the whole intent of the breacher. DeknMike has been banned from all edits - not just "good" edits or "harmless" edits, but from all edits, and for good reason. He has been given a protocol for getting "harmless" changes made to the article; he has been explicitly told, in the terms of his ban, to propose such changes on the article's talk page. Instead, he has chosen to thumb his nose at all those who spent (or in reality, wasted) a good deal of time dealing with his inappropriate behavior in the first place. Claiming that these obvious provocations should be ignored could itself be seen as "process wonkery at its finest". Again, the question here is whether he is simply warned not to do this again, or is actually sanctioned, so he realizes this time-wasting isn't appreciated. Which will it be? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:28, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Salvio, your comment is completely out of line. Topic bans are bright-line situations: they say "don't touch this, or you will be blocked". There's no reason for a topic-banned editor to so much as adjust the width of a space within the scope of his topic ban. Actual editing blocks are the natural progression for someone that doesn't understand that concept.—Kww(talk) 20:50, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I think we all agree that the edit is a violation of the letter of the topic ban, correct? And the edit clearly can be seen as a breaching experiment. If the edit is allowed to go unremarked, the message being sent is formatting changes in violation of the letter of the topic ban are allowed. The problem is that formatting changes can change the message conveyed by the article. Simple "formatting changes" such as applying a different way of quoting something, or greying something out, or using a larger font, etc. can have a significant change in the emphasis an article gives to certain content, without stepping outside "formatting changes." Besides, the original intent of the topic ban was to have DeknMike gain experience editing in other areas with different editors from the ones he was working with in this topic area. Allowing "formatting changes" is in invitation to allow further, possibly disruptive edits in this topic area, undermining the therapeutic intent of the original topic ban. I don't really have an answer as to whether this is block-able or not, but DeknMike has already made two previous MJ-related article content edits in violation of his topic ban. If those two previous incidents didn't happen, a simple warning here might be sufficient, but I think we're beyond that now. Zad68 20:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Previous topic-ban violation problems:

1. List of Messianic Jewish organizations, 22 June, handled by AniMate (original topic-ban closer) here, with a warning and clarifying instructions, "Your topic ban was very specific about what kinds of edits were acceptable. You should not edit the articles, but you may participate in discussion on article talk pages."
2. Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, 17 August, instead of reporting I asked him to self-revert here and he did.

Zad68 20:54, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked DeknMike until he agrees to follow the terms of his topic ban. Might be a 10 minute block, might be forever ... his choice.—Kww(talk) 20:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's a false dichotomy that anything which is not blocked for is permitted. The ban statement provided by AniMate did not specify a sanction, and WP:BAN does not specify how topic bans are to be enforced. John Carter could have simply reverted the edit, or raised the discussion on the editor's talk and asked them to self revert, or have contacted AniMate. Instead -- speaking of technical policy violations -- they appear to have started an ANI thread (contrary to the discuss with editor first guidance at the top of this page) and canvassed Jayig [11] NE Ent 21:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

They've tried those approaches twice before, and the problem continues. This seems to be a reasonable escalation.—Kww(talk) 21:17, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Arguable, as the nature of the edits was different (content vs. format), but not unreasonable. Any comment on the canvassing selection notification of other editors? NE Ent 21:21, 11 November 2012 (UTC) Corrected NE Ent 22:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I have a few, actually. First, I would very much appreciate a clear explanation of exactly how my comment to Jayjg qualifes as canvassing as per WP:CANVASS. I do not believe telling an individual who had been significantly involved in the matters which had led to the ban being placed who is also one of our most respected editors and an admin that a discussion regarding the matter he had been involved in is canvassing. Otherwise, I myself believe that there might perhaps be a rather prejudicial rush to judgment on the part of one of those commenting here, and I believe that it is not unreasonable to request that others not raise apparently unfounded allegations in prejudicial terms, such as have been rather clearly done above. And I believe it is worth noting that I only did this action after having received more than one e-mail regarding this matter from different parties. Also, I should note that I had myself basically stopped watching the discussion after Salvio closed it earlier until I saw DeknMike had been blocked indefinitely. Although I did not myself say this earlier, for fear of prejudicing the outcome, I myself thought that maybe a sanction of one week might be the longest I myself would support given the nature of the edit, and I wouldn't have objected if it were even shorter than that. I am sorry if I sound irritated, but I honestly thought people who commented here might actually be capable of using loaded language would actually be able to use it in a way which indicated they were familiar with the relevant policies and guidelines. Evidently, I may have been wrong in drawing that conclusion. John Carter (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, Zad68, ThatPeskyCommoner, In incti occuli, Secretlondon, Malleus Fatorum, A sniper, Avi, Plot Spoiler, Evanh2008, brewcrewer, Wikid77d, and MastCell commented on the ANI discussion and AniMate closed it and placed the ban. Of that group, JohnCarter only notified Jayjg. As ANI has 5628 watchers, it's hard to see a justification for notifying one specific administrator. NE Ent 22:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Informing individuals who have been involved in issues previously is not WP:CANVASS, by any stretch of the imagination. On the contrary, it is recommended practice. Feel free to notify any others you feel were left out. In any event, this is not relevant to what sanction is appropriate for DeknMike. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:19, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

(multiple e-c) FWIW, I was going to clean up some grammatical problems in earlier comments before others commented further. But it is also worth noting that Jayjg had been involved in the previous discussion on the article talk pages, which the others were not. I think that would have been obvious to anyone who might have made an effort to look that far into the history of the matter, and it is also acceptable as per WP:CANVASS to notify some of those who had been significantly involved in those discussions which led to the postings here. I otherwise agree that this line of discussion is in no way relevant to the topic of this thread, and honestly, think it really only serves to demonstrate the lack of familiarity with policies and guidelines of some individuals who have commented. If they believe that there is a serious reason to raise allegations of canvassing, I believe that it is reasonable to ask them to demonstrate exactly how the actions involved qualify under WP:CANVASS, and probably to raise that discussion in a separate thread. John Carter (talk) 22:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

"The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it." NE Ent 01:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

No evidence has been shown that Jayjg was chosen based on his opinions, but rather based on his prior knowledge of the discussion from the article talk pages. The comment above is in no way demonstrably relevant to this discussion. More than one editor has commented above that these accusations, which are as of yet still not clearly founded and seem to border on personal attacks, have any clear relevance to this discussion. If you think you have a basis for a complaint, as has already been said, please start a separate section for it. Otherwise, these dubiously supported which have no direct relevance to the subject of this thread really should stop. If you wish to file a formal complaint, it is pretty much standard practice to start a separate subthread at least. But, really, the above seems to me to be grasping at straws. Should this continue, I think that it would not be unreasonable for me to start a separate subthread regarding the abusive use of this page by the above editor. John Carter (talk) 03:09, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• An indefinite block for a technical change which had no impact on the content of the article? One which was made on the seventh and where the author hasn't edited since the eighth? And when an uninvolved admin has already reviewed the situation and declined to take action in no uncertain terms? This is definitely one of the poorest blocks I have ever seen and I fully intend to overturn it. While it's true that topic bans do certainly mean "do not edit a given page", we are not bots and we can apply commonsense and don't have to mechanically apply the rules, which is what WP:IAR/WP:NOTBURO are all about. That edit warranted a warning at most, but certainly not a block. Much less an indefinite one. To an uninvolved observer, this looks like a mere show of force. That's why I'll give Kww time to self-revert, but if he chooses not to do so, I will. And, before someone goes around saying I'll be wheel warring: per WP:WHEEL, to undo a fellow administrator's action is not wheel warring. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 12:15, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• It's only indefinite in time, Salvio. As I said above, it will last precisely as long as DeknMike chooses: all he has to do to get unblocked is agree to abide his topic ban. You are right that it wouldn't be wheel-warring, but it would still be wrong of you to undo a perfectly sound block with such a reasonable unblock condition. If DeknMike won't agree to conform to his topic ban, why should he be permitted to edit?—Kww(talk) 14:24, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Salvio, sorry, but I didn't see you respond to the points being raised. A block requiring DeknMike to agree by writing in his own words that he understands the topic-ban--"He is allowed to participate in discussion on the talk page but may not edit the parent article or any related articles." (copied verbatim off of his User Talk page, emphasis mine)--seems a reasonable step, based on

1. DeknMike's previous two topic-ban violations
2. The danger that sending the message that 'technical changes are allowed' could result in changes in the meaning conveyed by an article (as discussed above)
3. The intent of the original topic ban--to get DeknMike to start working collaboratively with editors in other areas so that he better understands WP:V. (Why couldn't he have accomplished his change through an edit request to the article Talk page?)

Could you please address these points? Cheers... Zad68 15:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

This whole thread is an overreaction. What should (ideally) have happened was a user talk page message along the lines of What the heck are you doing? You know you're under a topic ban. I know you weren't changing content but just editing the page means someone is going to have to check the diff. You can't make any edits to the article, okay? That said, I think Kww's block, while unnecessary, was well-done: They specifically disavowed "ownership" of it, allowing any admin to unblock, and clearly laid out what DeknMike needs to say in an unblock request to resume editing. As an unblock at this point would not send a clear, consistent message to DeknMike, I think it would be counterproductive. NE Ent 15:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

May I point out:

1. AniMate was the closer of the original topic ban
2. DeknMike's first topic-ban violation (diff) was to the article List of Messianic Jewish organizations
3. AniMate's response to this included "the next time you violate your topic ban will result in a block"
4. This topic-ban violation was at this same article, List of Messianic Jewish organizations: diff

Wouldn't not blocking or undoing the block be undermining AniMate's previous actions on this without discussion? I will invite AniMate to this discussion. Zad68 15:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm away from keyboard for the next 8 hours or so.—Kww(talk) 15:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• I think the block was justifiably preventative but DeknMike should be unblocked if he agrees to completely stay away from the topic. Unlike the incident from June, this wasn't a major violation. Kww summarized the incident well in his block message. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
• I note that BWilkins has declined DeknMike's unblock request. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• With the reasoning "A minor format change to an article that is part of your topic ban is as flagrant as it gets." NE Ent 13:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• BWilkins? Oh, you mean that guy who said he was going to turn in his tools for 6 months? Joefromrandb (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• @Salvio: I'm waiting to see if you have the integrity to follow through on your promise to unblock. Something tells me I'm going to be disappointed but certainly not surprised. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The least possible reaction is the best possible reaction, in this instance. A note on a Talk page of an article or a note on a User page is all that this tempest in a teapot should have amounted to. Sorry but this is way overboard. Bus stop (talk) 19:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as "might be a ten minute block, might be forever", I'd like to point out that this topic-ban expires on 22 May 2013. So if this user chooses to take the high road by refusing to kiss Kww's ass and beg to be unblocked, I don't see how this "indefinite" block can continue past the expiration of the topic-ban. Joefromrandb (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course it can. You've obviously not been around Wikipeida long enough. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

There's no demand for groveling, or any expectation of it either. All he has to say is "I agree to abide by my topic ban". He's been warned on two previous violations, so there's no particular reason to believe that a third warning would have had any effect. If he posts an unblock request on 23 May 2013, it will be considered. I won't grant it, because I have no use for editors that won't abide by consensus, but others might.—Kww(talk) 04:51, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, someone surely will. (Salvio, sadly seems to have lost his nerve.) All this required was at most, a talk-page note: "This was a violation of the topic-ban and if you perform such an edit again, you'll be blocked". Instead, you have blocked first, while stating the user can be unblocked once he genuflects before you and promises to be good. Blocking this user was an entirely unnecesary vulgar display of power. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:49, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Did you miss the part where this was already his third offense, and the warning he received on his second offense said he would be blocked if he did it again? Wouldn't it be pretty pathetic to just keep warning him that he will be blocked the next time, and never actually do it?—Kww(talk) 05:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

He states[12] The latest was not a 'breaching experiment,' but simply added two lines to help a column line up, fixing an error other editors had previously ignored. Such a minor infraction! I have kept away from all discussions regarding doctrine or history, instead taking what little time I now spend on Wikipedia on improving discussions about the historic region of Southeast Virginia, on SEC Regulation D, etc. This indefinite block on all edits is over the top vindictive in that while I vehemently disagreed with the results of the ban, I have honored the spirit, and (except when I forget in those 3 trivial edits) even the letter of the ban for the main topic at hand. Request the block be removed, and the editors involved get back to improving Wikipedia. and is told "A minor format change to an article that is part of your topic ban is as flagrant as it gets'." (emphasis mine). Whatever point, whatever disruption to the encyclopedia is being prevented, has been made. Unblocking him wouldn't be pathetic, it would be humane. It would be honoring the spirit of Unless there is clear evidence to the contrary, assume that people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it. I can't see how a table formatting edit is hurting Wikipedia. Continuing to enforce the ban because he didn't say the right magic words -- which the blocking statement didn't actually tell him -- is the epitome of what we're not supposed to be bureaucratic. NE Ent 10:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Dude, did you see how many people voted for the Wikipedia:Petition against IAR abuse? Admin hands are completely tied these days. Who'd wanna run for RfA under such circumstances? Bots only. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

That's nonsense. Salvio (an administrator) wisely closed the thread, as no administrative intervention was necessary. No one's hands were tied. No one had to reopen the thread and no one had to block this user. Even now, no one's hands are tied. Any admin could step in and reverse this completely unnecessary block. But these folks consider themselves infallible to the degree that even the admin who had previously vowed to undo any block that was placed is now unwilling to touch it. It is the users whose hands are tied. Joefromrandb (talk) 12:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Salvio has not contributed since the 12th there's no evidence about what he will or will not do. NE Ent 13:06, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't accept that "The latest was not a 'breaching experiment'…" because the nature of a "breaching experiment" is that it is easily deniable. Bus stop (talk) 13:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

User:IjonTichyIjonTichy appears to be violating a topic ban

Per community consensus Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive765#Alternative_Proposal_by_IRWolfie-, User:IjonTichyIjonTichy is topic banned "from the Zeitgeist movement, broadly construed", including "everything he does on Wikipedia, whether in articles, on talk pages, or anywhere else, and that 'broadly' means that he can't do anything that remotely links to TZM, to anyone involved with TZM, or to anything that TZM is involved in". [13]. As can be seen, IjonTichyIjonTichy has chosen to flout this ban on his talk page, and is now soapboxing regarding the article on movement and on his ban, while engaging in personal attacks on me (thinly disguised). [14]. Can I ask that appropriate action be taken? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:06, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I have not violated the ban. I have not even viewed (not to mention edit) the TZM article or its talk page or related articles. Instead, I focused on editing other WP articles and contributing to developing the encyclopedia. However I recently noticed that the user above has attacked me repeatedly prior to my topic ban (just search for the many the many times 'IjonTichyIjonTichy' appears on the above user's talk page) and post-ban [15] [16] [17]. And I did not identify the user above, or the TZM article, by user name or article title, and I did not mention the TZM article on my user page, user talk page or any WP page since the topic ban. And I refuse to interact in any way, shape or form in the future with a user who vandalized a WP article and who has repeatedly engaged in other offensive, uncivil, abusive behavior, including, but not limited to personal attacks on me, both before my topic ban and after. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The material on your talk page clearly relates to TZM. You have violated your topic ban. And if you don't wish to interact with me, don't post personal attacks on me... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Note that in this edit [18] (material added to an old talk-page post), is accusing multiple editors of 'bias' against him, and of them - and seems to be arguing that the topic ban was unjustified, and that he'd been 'railroaded'. Given that it was made absolutely clear that any discussions regarding the ban would need to be done with an admin via e-mail, rather than in public, this seems to be further evidence that IjonTichyIjonTichy is failing to abide by the topic ban. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I have not, and will not interact with this vandal in any way, shape or form, even after my topic ban is lifted. The material on my talk page or user page does not identify TZM or anything remotely resembling TZM (I have now removed the direct copy-paste of the user's vulgar, offensive statement that he used to deface the WP article in his act of vandalism). I am entitled to revise material that I've posted immediately after the topic ban was posted, and in which I directly communicate with the admin who has administred the ban, and I made it very clear the new material is an addition and revision of my original posting from Aug. 23 in which I'm trying to express my thoughts and feelings; as these thoughts and feelings continue to evolve in light of my new understanding of how WP works, I have inserted new material which expresses new insights I gained which help me articulate the (old) feelings I've felt when the topic ban was originally implemented. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Posting personal attacks is 'interaction'. The material you posted unequivocally relates to TZM, and in this edit of yours (dated 6 November) [19] you explicitly refer to "TZM". You have violated your ban. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I have not personally attacked anyone in my revision to my conversation with the administrator. I'm only describing material that is well-known on WP (although regretfully it was not well-known to me up until very recently), and that appears in various forms on various user's pages, WP essays, etc. (Please see my recent revisions to my own user page in which I list some of the things I've learned recently about how WP works). I'm entitled to modify the original way I've expressed my original thoughts and feelings to clarify and to better-articulate my original observations and personal feelings in light of new information that has come to my knowledge and new understandings(s) I've developed. (For example, one of the many sources that I discovered recently that helped me develop new insights is WP:Disruptive_sanctions.) I've made many contributions to WP since my topic ban and none of them come anywhere close to being related to TZM. And I intend to continue to make many more contributions to WP articles in upcoming weeks and months (for example, I have plans to continue my efforts to develop articles on various areas in high technology, especially AI, robotics, etc., and their many subfields, based on citations from IEEE peer-reviewed journal articles), and eventually appeal my topic ban. (I've already written some portions (but not all) of my appeal and will submit it in a few days or weeks when I'm fully ready.) I wish I was aware of the many resources (some of which I recently listed on my own user page) before the topic ban, as they would have prevented, or at least helped resolve, many of the conflicts I've been involved in on the TZM article; in fact if I were aware of this info I would have left the TZM article months before the topic ban and focused instead on contributing to non-TZM-related articles. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:53, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• This is clearly gaming, and a poor attempt at that: [20]. I'm going to presume "UVWXYZ" is meant to be Andy and the protected article is for TZM. I see more hints about andy being a nasty contributor here: User:IjonTichyIjonTichy#Some_insights_on_editing_Wikipedia in this rather long soapbox. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:14, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Everything I wrote is based on direct diffs -- except I did not list the diffs, and don't intend to list the diffs in the near future, and thus my post does not identify any particular, specific user. Everything I wrote is based on hard evidence. It is all hard data/ evidence/ diffs. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the section from my talk page and pasted it to my user page, but it did not fit there so I removed it, although I intend to re-post it in the near future after I develop it more fully and I will not re-post it. By the way, I'm curious. IRWolfie- has quickly revised the original uncivil comment I posted on the user's talk page (although I realize now, based on what I've learned in recent months, that all IRWolfie- - or any editor - needed to do was to encourage me to revise or delete my uncivil comment, and I would have deleted my comment), and quickly proceeded to open an AN/I on me. My question: why has IRWolfie- not revised, or deleted, the many attacks on me by the same user, on the same user's talk page, in the weeks preceding the AN/I? And why has IRWolfie- not revised the two additional attacks on me by the same same vandal post my topic ban -- specifically, the comment on the user's page, [21] and on my own user talk page [22], in both of which the same vandal again attacked me? (The numerous attacks in the first diff are obvious; in the second he disparages, belittles and mocks my contributions as "while you do nothing else remotely useful".) Does this (among other things which I'll more fully discuss in my appeal) not appear to justify my revision to my communication on my own talk page with the topic-banning administrator? IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• I support an indefinite block based on the violation of the topic ban. Ijon's responses are nonsensical. His attempts to deflect this discussion to other editors' alleged misconduct or alleged failures are a transparent distraction. Similarly, his attempts to wikilawyer his way around the ban by thinly disguising the name of the article and the name of the editor are offensive. Having been involved with Ijon and the TZM article in the past, I cannot block him. Otherwise, I would.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:25, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• I also support an indefinite block. It's a clear violation of the topic ban and a blatant attempt at gaming the system, despite Ijon's pathetic attempts to disguise it. His responses here just destroy any credibility he might have had. Sorry, but I can't see this user contributing more good to WP than bad. He clearly has no intention of improving the behavior that led to the topic ban in the first place. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not initiate the discussion on revising my original comment to the administrator. And I'm not wikilawyering anything. I firmly believe everything I've written. Although I admit I am relatively inexperienced in many aspects of Wikipedia and thus I may be (and probably am, based on the response here) wrong in my assumptions and my understandings and my approach, and it seems I probably should have waited until after my topic ban is lifted to try to more properly and civilly address the issue of the uncivil behavior by the vandal. As far as I know I have not violated the topic ban in any way, shape or form in recent months as I've continued to make many contributions to the encyclopedia, despite the fact that an editor continued to attack me on his user talk page post the topic ban. I'm continuing to learn and develop and probably will learn from this exchange too to help me continue to develop to become a better WP contributor. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The first paragraph of this diff [23] is clearly and unequivocally about TZM. The topic ban was violated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:52, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the insights on gaming the system by all the editors above. I thought about what the editors wrote and I now understand that your concerns regarding appearing to game the system are valid, and even though I did not intend to game, it may well appear that I have, given that I'm still on a topic ban. Good intentions alone are insufficient -- actions, and all possible consequences including all possible appearances and interpretations of my actions by all involved actors are also very important and I should have thought more carefully about these issues before clicking the 'save page' button. I appreciate the feedback. Thanks for the insights on being much more careful not only about being motivated by the right intentions but also about taking into consideration all possible appearances and interpretations, among the other useful feedback provided above. I realize now that starting the section on my talk page was an error on my part, and does not fit-in at all with my contributions and good behavior in the months since after the topic ban. (By the way I also had strong personal doubts before I started the section, I should have listened to my own inner voice more carefully.) Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support an indefinite block, WP:COMPETENCE and WP:ROPE. — raekyt 23:56, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Can you please more fully support your accusation of WP:COMPETENCE? Can you please explain how making a single mistake in two and half months of making many contributions post my topic ban (a mistake I quickly corrected after receiving useful feedback above from editors more experienced than me) constitutes incompetence? Is it not true that mistakes are supposed to be an inevitable part of the wiki process? Is anybody on Wikipedia perfect in every way? I certainly admit that my development as an editor has not always been linear. It has been marked by forward progression overall, but with many temporary bumps and detours and dead-ends and misguided efforts. In some cases (such as above), I've taken two steps back for every three steps forward. But I believe the overall trajectory of my development as an editor, compared to my efforts as a newbie about six months ago, has been one of positive growth and progress. Do you have specific data (in addition to the mistake I made above) to prove otherwise? Thanks and regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 01:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Note. In response to the question regarding WP:COMPETENCE, I think it need only be pointed out that IjonTichyIjonTichy seems to be continuing with his soapboxing and personal attacks: [24]. If this isn't a demonstration of a clear lack of clue, it is trolling... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:34, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

There are no personal attacks. In fact, in response to the helpful feedback from the editors above, I'm in the process of making the material on my own user page even more neutral in tone, and trying to remove any hints of anything that might be mistakenly perceived as relating to the TZM article (or any particular article) or to any particular user. And by the way, since we are on the topic of WP:COMPETENCE, why did the vandal willfully ignore the warning by the admin on my own user talk page to leave me alone? I agree with the admin that there are two sides to every story and I fully admit that my own behavior is the sole cause of my topic ban; but my behavior is not at all the sole cause of the dispute between me and everyone involved, including the vandal. I'm not the sole problem and my topic ban does not vindicate everyone else, including the vandal. I have plenty to say about everyone's behavior that I cannot now. The admin specifically wrote on Aug. 23: Just back off. What you are doing is grave dancing. Please go away. Then why did the vandal continue to attack me about full 10 days after the above notice by the admin [25] [26]? When an uninvolved editor (Dennis Brown) discussed the vandalism, the vandal admitted he should not have done it [27], but in the same breath the vandal [28], instead of taking full personal responsibility for his own actions, appears to be Wikilawyering in an apparent attempt to dodge responsibility and blame others for his own actions, including: blaming what he calls "TZM supporters" and "POV-pushing sockpuppets"; blaming me ("drive(s) everyone insane with walls of text"); accusing me of using a sock puppet; accusing me of POV-pushing and spinning; misrepresenting and twisting what I said earlier about AOTE (ATG, OpenFuture, Tom harrison and Earl King Jr.) (ATG falsely claims I habitually ("at the drop of a hat") accused editors of a conspiracy against TZM where in fact I explicitly and clearly said they were not part of a conspiracy or cabal); attempting to paint a picture of me as a confused, incoherent, inconsistent, incompetent and incapable editor; blaming user: Zgoutreach; conflating me with user Zgoutreach; accusing Zgoutreach of being "the latest TZM-pusher" and implying I was a (previous) TZM-pusher; accusing me and Zgoutreach of exhibiting passive-aggressive behavior and paranoia; accusing me of being coached by TZM ("TZM supporters all get lessons"); calling me a 'contributor' in single quotes to denigrate, disparage and belittle my work; insulting user Zgoutreach by characterizing him as having a "tiny little head" to imply Zgoutreach's intellectual abilities are inferior and implying the vandal is his intellectual superior; etc. ( By the way, the vandal seems to be repeatedly implying that Zgoutreach and myself belong to a POV-pushing cult, conspiracy or cabal, but these are the same exact labels which the vandal himself appears to denigrate, ridicule and belittle when others accuse him of ... Editors have been warned by the topic-ban admin to leave me alone and stop attacking me, as this can easily be seen as an attempt to provoke me to initiate my block; the vandal has in the past, post the topic ban, and is continuing now, to ignore this warning. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 04:01, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Not that, contrary to IjonTichyIjonTichy's allegations of 'gravedancing', I had made no postings whatsoever to his talk page prior to his recent personal attacks on me - this is my first post, dated yesterday: [29]. AndyTheGrump (talk)

The vandal has not commented on my own talk page, but he appears to have danced on my grave on his own user talk page. The vandal's posting on his own talk page is a serious personal attack on me post my topic ban. The admin's warning to leave me alone and not provoke me applies to all editors, not only to the one (not ATG) who appeared to maybe grave dance. The right course of action for ATG was to leave my name out of his response to the uninvolved editor inquiring about ATG's vandalism. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk)

Yet more Wikilawyering to evade discussing the obvious issues - the violation of the ban, and the continuing personal attacks on multiple contributors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not intend to imply that the vandal has commented on my own talk page. But he appears to have danced on my grave on his own user talk page. The vandal's posting on his own talk page is a serious, multi-faceted personal attack on me full 10 days post my topic ban. The admin's warning to leave me alone and not provoke me applies to all editors, not only to the one (not ATG) who appeared to maybe grave dance. We are talking about competence here, and if ATG would insist on continuing to attack my competence, I can bring many more examples. The right course of action for ATG was to leave my name out of his response to the uninvolved editor inquiring about ATG's vandalism, and to realize that his own action has directly contributed to my recent mistake (although he is not responsible for my own mistake which I take responsibility for), and to accept my admission of my recent innocent mistake, and leave me alone and stop appearing to attempt to provoke me. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk)

Are you actually trying to get yourself blocked? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not. I'm interested in continuing to contribute to the project. I have not even viewed (not to mention edit) the TZM article since the topic ban, and instead focused on learning how WP really works (although I'm open to considering my new understanding is probably flawed -- hopefully not fatally flawed ...) and on contributing to non-TZM articles. I suggest we both stop attacking each other's competence (or attacking anything else) because it's a waste of everyone's time because I'll attack you back, you will respond in kind, I'll respond and we'll get nowhere. Instead of exclusively focusing on my actions, please also consider your own (without reducing your focus on my actions). Please consider the possibility that the best course of action for you was to leave my name out of your response to the uninvolved editor inquiring about your vandalism, and to realize that your own attack on me, which may appear to some editors to be a direct violation of at least the spirit and the principle, if not the letter, of the admin's prohibition on attacking me, may have directly contributed to my recent (mistaken and misguided) attempt to list the diffs to your attacks (although I'm not sure if my posting the diffs-without-real-diffs was a direct response to your attacks on me). (I admit you are not responsible for my own recent mistake which I take responsibility for.)

Let's declare peace; I'm asking that editors, chiefly (but not exclusively) yourself, accept my admission of my recent innocent mistake, and leave me alone to continue to contribute to non-TZM articles. Persistent, continued accusations may increasingly appear to be an attempt on your part to provoke me into personally attacking you in order to initiate my block. Please accept my admission of mistake, and consider going away, and fully leaving me alone, as the admin requested almost 3 months ago; please consider doing as I did: I've left you alone, and I've left all editors on the TZM topic-ban AN/I alone, and I've left all TZM-related articles alone over the last almost three months (until my mistake a few hours ago). I hope this solution is agreeable to you. Peace and regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk)

So now, after the multiple personal attacks you have posted yesterday and today (hardly 'leaving me alone'), and the clear violation of your topic ban, you want everyone to pretend nothing has happened? It doesn't work that way. (and BTW, no admin ever informed me of any prohibitions on me commenting on you - you are making that up). AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to post one final post before I get some sleep. ( By the way after my topic ban is lifted I will restrict all long posts to my own user talk page, and only post short, concise and relevant posts to the article talk page.)

With all due respect, please refrain from putting words in my mouth and speaking for me. I have not said nor implied I want anyone to pretend anything. I respect all editors here, including yourself, as mature, smart, highly capable adults and I did not request them to pretend anything. Instead, I am proposing a resolution to this issue, (an issue which frankly is becoming increasingly tiresome, cumbersome and nonsensical by the minute), so that we can stop wasting everybody's time here in endless, fruitless discussions and instead redirect our energies to what we are passionate about - developing the encyclopedia.

What I tried to say is that I feel I fully abided by the spirit and principles of the topic ban over the last almost three months, although I fully admit I appear to have broken the letter of the ban in my misguided, mistaken, erroneous, stupid attempt to list the diffs of your vandalism and your many vicious personal attacks on me pre- and post-topic-ban. Thus, your persistent, insistent, repetitive mention of my recent, and only, violation may appear increasingly suspicious (at least to me), as if you may be appearing to have some ulterior motive -- are you hinting that perhaps I should be faulted on a technicality? Can you please explain why it is so important to you that I be infinitely blocked? What good would come to the encyclopedia if I would be blocked as you seem to insist, considering that I made many contributions over the last 3 months since my topic ban, while exhibiting exemplary editorial and personal behavior (until my mistake a few hours ago which may have damaged the high credibility I worked so hard to re-build)? I repeat my suggestion we both stop attacking each other because it's a waste of everyone's time; it's a vicious circle -- you'll continue to attack me, I'll respond, you'll respond and we'll get nowhere.

With all respect to you, please don't pretend you were not aware editors were explicitly prohibited from attacking me. And don't pretend you only 'commented' on me as you write; I can only hope that you may someday realize that what you did was infinitely worse than 'commenting'. You yourself sought the extremely punitive, very harsh sanctions which were eventually agreed by the community against me on the topic-ban AN/I, and common sense combined with a basic sense of fairness and fair-play on your part would have amply dictated that you refrain from attacking me (because you yourself explicitly requested, and the community agreed, that I be forbidden from responding to any potential attacks on me post-ban). Not to mention that you violated WP policies that explicitly prohibit editors from attacking banned or blocked editors. The admin ban on commenting or attacking me or engaging me, the harsh conditions you sought to attach to the ban, the spirit and language of WP policies, common sense, and reasonable levels of awareness and careful consideration of others' feelings would have have all combined to strictly and amply dictate that you should have left me completely alone post my topic-ban. And some awareness would also have revealed to you that (as far as I know) nobody else, except you, appears to have initiated 'comments' on me post-ban. (Although I may be mistaken on the last item as I don't know what has been said about me, if anything, post-ban on the TZM article talk page.)

May I request something of you. Instead of exclusively focusing on my actions, please also take some time to consider your own (without risking reducing your focus on my actions). Please consider the possibility that the best course of action for you was to leave my name out of your response to the uninvolved editor inquiring about your vandalism, and to realize that your own lengthy, massive, multi-faceted, brutal, injurious attack on me post-ban, which appears to have been an attempt to deflect all blame of your vandalism onto me, an attack which may appear to be a direct violation of at least the spirit and the principle, if not the letter, of the admin's prohibition on attacking me as well as common sense and a violation of WP policies, --- I am asking that you reflect on your own actions (in addition to mine), and consider that your own actions may have, directly or directly, contributed (to whatever extent) to my recent (mistaken and misguided) attempt to list the diffs to your numerous personal attacks on me and to your vandalism. And please note that I admit you are not responsible for my own recent brain-dead mistake which I take responsibility for.

Let's declare peace (or, at least, a truce). I'm asking that editors, chiefly yourself, accept my admission and explanation of my recent innocent, inexperience-motivated, foolish mistake, and leave me alone to continue to contribute to non-TZM articles. Persistently continuing to accuse me may increasingly appear to be an attempt on your part to provoke me into personally attacking you in order to initiate my block. Consider admitting that we've both made mistakes: you've made a big mistake in viciously, broadly and deeply attacking and injuring the innate humanity, intelligence, abilities, personality and editing skills of a banned editor (you've shown no compassion or mercy when you've 'hit a person when he's down') on your user talk page, as well as fully deleting and vandalizing a valid WP article; and I'll admit I've made a big mistake as I amply discussed above. Consider accepting the fact that both of our mistakes (as almost all serious mistakes on WP) have unintended consequences, and consider the fact that nobody is perfect on WP and everyone is entitled to make mistakes on WP. Furthermore, consider accepting that the best thing to do right now may be for both of us to go our separate ways, declare a continuation of our 3-month-old divorce, keep a wide distance from each other in the future, and leave each other alone, as the topic-ban admin originally requested almost 3 months ago. Consider following my example: with the single, isolated exception of my recent mistake, I've left all TZM-related articles alone over the last almost three months, I've left you alone for almost three months, and I've left all editors on the TZM topic-ban AN/I alone over the same period of time (and, as far as I know, they've all blissfully left me alone too). I hope this proposed solution is agreeable. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Absolutely a violation of the topic ban, a purposeful gaming of the system. I support an indefinite block or ban. Binksternet (talk) 04:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

As I explained above, there was no purposeful gaming, although, in hindsight, based on the helpful feedback from editors above who are more experienced than me, I now understand why and how my actions may have appeared to be gaming the system. I now understand my mistake, and have taken action to correct it. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 04:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• IjonTichyIjonTichy blocked for 1 month by me for "WP:DE and violating topic ban". The thinly veiled attempt on the talk page and insistence on referring to Andy as "the vandal" in this discussion show a serious lack of clue. While there are many editors here that support an indef block, I'm going to give a small amount of rope and use the least amount of block I think will work to prevent disruption, which is a month. This is in part because they have shown willingness to back off (which may be simply trying to avoid being indef blocked) and some of the rhetoric may be in the heat of the moment. They have never been blocked before and have stayed off the article as well. It is my hope that they will take this month and reflect a bit and try to understand that gaming the system will not work and will not be overlooked, as the next block will likely be for an indefinite period. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate that you took action, Dennis, but I think you're being unduly optimistic. Ijon's behavior here is consistent with his violation of the ban and his previous passive-aggressive behavior. Your parenthetical ("which may be simply trying to avoid being indef blocked") is spot on. That's exactly what he's doing. You should also note in the wall of text (why he has to subject this board to that as he's done elsewhere is beyond me) that not only does he "assume" he is he not going to be blocked but even that the ban will be lifted. Such chutzpah. And it's intentional. There's very little Ijon does that isn't thought out. His problem is he underestimates his audience. The idea that any of this was a "mistake" is implausible. Thus, a one-month block is only delaying the inevitable. But it's your call, and erring on the side of leniency and assuming some good faith is rarely a bad thing.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Well, it costs us nothing to try. If he is tries to bypass the block, or comes back with the same attitude, I will be happy to revisit it. He is a newish user, and hopefully this "shot across the bow" will cause him to take notice. I prefer giving everyone one extra chance to conform to community standards when there is any hope. If he fails to have an epiphany during this break, well, blocks are cheap. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

The editor still has a lot of soapboxing on his page: "My research is based on being on the receiving end of many personal attacks and other uncivil behavior from several editors, and from browsing various user and article talk pages, the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) archives, WP:ANI archives and other archives, and various additional boards (e.g. civility board, administrators' boards, dispute resolution, arbitration etc). There, I observed the behavior of several editors with an specially long history of extremely nasty, hostile and disruptive behavior, including: lack of respect for other editors, personal attacks, disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, casting aspersions on others and using offensive language (including, but not limited to, abusive, rude, insulting, derogatory or sarcastic language), gaming the system, stonewalling, creating and spreading Wikidrama and World Wrestling Federation-style melodrama, using wordplay formulated to mock other users, and other various forms of disruptive editing and disruptive behavior -- some very sophisticated, some more crude.". IRWolfie- (talk) 00:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

That is all from before the block, and he hasn't commented since being blocked. I'm inclined to leave well enough alone and let him make the first move, hoping it will be one in the right direction. If any of it is genuinely personal attacks, then redacting it would be fine. Otherwise, I prefer to not antagonize the situation and offer a fair chance for him to see the error in his methods. No need to poke a bear once you have confined him to the talk page cage, after all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

POV-pushing, IP-hopping editor

In the past few days I have encountered an editor whose clear agenda is to remove all references to "China" or the "Republic of China" in Taiwan-related matters, often against discussion consensus or inappropriately changing the title field of a template away from its actual name. See this non-exhaustive list of diffs: [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40] Where appropriate, range-blocks should be enacted to prevent playing of "pop the weasel". GotR ^Talk 20:19, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• It might be better to request page protection. This is larger than a single IP range, so I don't think a range block is going to work and will have too much collateral damage. I agree that it looks like clear POV editing, however. WP:RFPP can protect pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Well, if this activist moves on to even more pages, the better option would be to seal the ranges rather than mass-protect pages and prevent all non-confirmed from editing those pages. GotR ^Talk 16:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• The Republic of China is commonly known as Taiwan. Changing ROC to Taiwan makes it less confusing because readers not familiar with Taiwan strait issues might confuse ROC with the People`s Republic of China. In wikipedia ,the page "Republic of China" has been redirected to "Taiwan". Most pages about the state use the name "Taiwan". In my opinion,the editor`s changes are reasonable as it maintains consistency of the name and reduces confusion. 111.82.204.221 (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, the OP here is one who often creates problems for the Taiwan page, and others using that name, with extremely cryptic Edit summaries and a clear agenda to maintain the word China in connection to Taiwan. It's part of a very old political (and initially military) conflict from the first half of last century. This goes against the result of a massive effort at the page some months ago where consensus was reached to rename the article from Republic of China to Taiwan. The IP hopping editor is not really being helpful, but I see his behaviour as at least partly a reaction to out OP's obsession with pushing the POV of the article in the opposite direction, against consensus. Actions to bring our IP hopping editor properly on board, with registration, etc., would be good, but our OP needs to to be watched too. His POV goals to continually fight the consensus recently achieved, and reintroduce confusion over the use of the name China, are not good for Wikipedia. The goals of the IP hopping editor are probably more in line with consensus. HiLo48 (talk) 15:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Without touching on the far more numerous problems of HiLo, I have let this particular IP editor some leeway when his (her) changes are not completely unreasonable. For instance, I have chosen to ignore the most recent edits to Keelung River, which I have chosen to ignore, and Template:List of Asian capitals by region, the latter which is more questionable. I am not, as HiLo falsely accuses, a robot that automatically inserts "China" in every usage of ROC/Taiwan; however, this IP editor is the robot that performs the inverse function. I must remind all that the decision reached in March pertained only to the title of the main article, and specifically instructed those in HiLo's faction not to immediately alter other content in favour of their unequivocally nevertheless hidden political motives: to eradicate every last modern reference to the first non-dynastic Chinese state. GotR ^Talk 16:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Ah, your colours are now fully on display. That you see everyone with an interest in the subject as being part of a "faction" is your main problem. You may be. I have no idea. And I wouldn't accuse. I'll just stick to describing your actions. I just want a better encyclopaedia. Oh, and I DID NOT accuse you of being "a robot that automatically inserts "China" in every usage of ROC/Taiwan". Thank you for proving my point about your style and attitude. GoTR, the IP hopping editor may be a small problem, but you're probably the cause. HiLo48 (talk) 20:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Regardless of the intent of those who wish to (essentially) eradicate usage of "ROC" and whether they support independence, they agree to such eradication; this makes you as much part of a faction as I am. "the OP here is...a clear agenda to maintain the word China in connection to Taiwan."—not explicit, but falls not at all short of accusing me of being a robot. Remember that I have already provided (i.e. debunked) a few counterexamples, A → not B, to your claim of A → B. Your attempts at diverting the focus away from the IP editor have shown to be a ridicule-and-parade-HiLo48-in-a-dunce-hat fun fest. GotR ^Talk 22:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Your disruptive, accusatory approach is now obvious. I feel no need to say any more here. HiLo48 (talk) 23:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• The IPs edits are making changes from Republic of China to Taiwan. The article of the place-in-question is at Taiwan. I don't understand the problem here. GoodDay (talk) 23:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• In addition to the closing remarks of the requested move of Republic of China to Taiwan that stated the move closure decision was only made with respect to that page's title, see remarks made by Jiang in Talk:Taiwan#"Mainland". In particular, many of the changes {{ROC-TW}} or {{ROC}} to {{TWN}}, where all three templates link to the current title. GotR ^Talk 05:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

To emphasise what GotR said (noting that I neither participated in the requested move nor AFAIK have I ever left a particularly comment on this issue), a consensus for one article does not normally equate to a consensus for another article. Only with a wider RFC where what other articles will be called is specifically considered (likely one advertised in all relevent articles) would this generally be the case. And in this particular case, the closing admins explicitly noted the move did not include any other articles Talk:Taiwan/Archive 20. Note that this does not mean that the other articles can't be moved, simply that since it's likely to be disputed and any move should be discussed first and given we rarely require interarticle consistency, what the 'main' article is called is a fairly weak argument. Nil Einne (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Kollyfan

Hello. Over the past few days, the mentioned user Kollyfan (talk · contribs) has been making large-scale edits to a number of articles, which usually pertain to removing large amounts of factual content along with sources with usually misleading edit summaries from articles related to Tamil cinema (a branch of Indian cinema). It is evident from his contributions that the account is primarily used only to edit/remove box office data pertaining to the specific branch of articles I mentioned above, bordering on WP:SPA. Indeed, it is over a year old, and has gone through a couple of blocks due to personal attacks and edit-warring which arose due to heated disagreement over the same topic.

The user has rarely touched a talk page over the recent past, even though one can be pretty sure that he knows the level of subjectivity his edits carry and that he must get consensus first, as he has had a lifetime experience of disagreements over the same topic over the Enthiran article (that incident took place a year ago, he took a break for one year and returned a few days back, but without any change of attitude). It is high time he was given a topic ban or a further block (it is also worth noting that his past blocks were solely about disruptive behavior, whereas his editing part has failed to receive any actionable notice despite the frustration caused) since he has been told several times in the past not to remove sourced data or perform any controversial edit for that matter without consensus but still failed to abide by the advice. Please share your thoughts over this matter so that further disruption can be prevented. Thank you. Secret of success · talk 09:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• I don't see that you have approached the editor on their talk page before coming here. If you have talked extensively somewhere else, please link it. The reason we require that you try to solve the problem before coming here is because most problems can be solved outside of ANI, and ANI can often make problems worse. I see the person has been blocked before for removing this type of information, but you still must try to work it out on some talk page before filing, preferably on their talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:50, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe Kollyfan has been sufficiently enlightened on what is right and what is wrong here, and trying to explain things to him will not produce any result, as a great effort has been put by editors in the past on it. Explaining his edits has only lead him to lawyer his way through. Examples are available in User talk:Kollyfan and in the archives of Talk:Enthiran, where not only me, but a number of editors—including admins—have attempted to settle things right. This issue had temporarily stopped because he took a one-year wikibreak and has risen again as he has come back with his usual standards. Secret of success · talk 13:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I guess what I am saying is that you need to provide better info here. I see him making some changes on pages, but I'm not inclined to dig through every single edit and try to figure out his motivation. His previous blocks were for edit warring and such, but I can't go block him for something he was already blocked for. If he is edit warring, you need to take it to WP:AN3. If you just disagree with his edits, WP:DRN is for dispute resolution. Unless he is doing something actionable, I'm not sure what I can do here. You haven't said much except he is doing something you don't like, nor provided any diffs to some kind of abusive behavior recently. I can't read your mind, and we don't settle dispute resolutions at ANI, we just handle behavioral problems, ie: Incidents, the I in ANI. You say he was told to not remove info, but was it at DRN or just one users opinion? How can I tell there is a genuine consensus against his actions? Without specific claims and diffs, I can't tell what the complaint is. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

StillStanding, again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I've been caught in a near-edit war over whether to blank the page and put a {{blocked user}} tag on User:StillStanding-247. Given that he made a death threat and was blocked with a wide consensus, I didn't think this would be contentious... but evidently, it is, and it's considered 'grave dancing'. I'd appreciate constructive comments on my actions here (and not a new battle about StillStanding's actions). Thanks to everyone in advance. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:57, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It appears what's being viewed as contentious is not the placing of the {{blocked user}} tag, but rather the page blanking. Perhaps just place the block tag at the top of the page, and leave it at that? Mojoworker (talk) 09:18, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

What's your reasons for blanking his page? He's not banned. Caden ^cool 08:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Good call, ed. Page should be blanked. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Horrible, childish call. As I told Ed, if his need to gravedance is truly that overwhelming, he should seek a formal community ban. Joefromrandb (talk) 09:15, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah it's a bad call. But grave dancing over it is just plain wrong, especially by an admin. Caden ^cool 09:24, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Amen. Especially an admin who claims "it's no big deal", yet will stop at nothing to ensure his precious badge of shame stays in place. Joefromrandb (talk) 09:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• Are you sure you got enough bad faith between the two of you? This sort of nonsense, this terminology, is precisely why I think this should be a page for administrators, like the title suggests--not a page where everyone gets to spew their venom. Childish indeed. Drmies (talk) 16:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to note that Ed's initial post is quite misleading. While there was wide consensus for the block, there was also wide consensus that there was no credible death-threat. Joefromrandb (talk) 09:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Yup Ed's post is very misleading. Unacceptable from an admin. Caden ^cool 09:39, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Ed asserts "he made a death threat", and then goes on to say he doesn't want "a new battle about [Still*'s] actions". Then stop making accusations! (Still* made no such threat. He told a joke. His joke became twisted & manufactured into something else by others.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why this tag should be controversial. StillStanding-247 was indef blocked for a good reason and has had their talk page locked for abusing it following the block. As far as I'm aware it's a common practice (though not compulsory) to mark the user pages of editors in this situation with this tag. Unless there are some issues with StillStanding-247's talk page I'm not aware of, I'd suggest that it be unblanked as it provides useful evidence of why the block was imposed and then broadened. Nick-D (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand Ed17's post. I can't see any reference in the "edit war" to the blocked user tag. Ed17 deleted the whole page with the edit summary "unneeded". His other edit is again to delete the whole page with the edit summary "I've explained my actions, and there is still no compelling reason to restore the page. Please feel free to bring it up on my talk page or request wider input if you disagree." The edit summaries are about page blanking not the blocked user tag, which seems not to be referred to by anybody. I can't see any reason to blank the page - that would be unusual wouldn't it? DeCausa (talk) 11:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The edit war is clearly visible in the user page's history [41] (it's also important to stress that Ed didn't 'delete' anything; he replaced the page's content with the tag. Nick-D (talk) 11:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the edit war is clearly visible. I saw it. Ok, he deleted the whole content of the page, not the page. Nice semantic spot there. But his edit summaries are about the page blanking. It's obvious from the edit summaries that the tag is not the issue, it's the page blanking. So why did he open this claiming it's about the tag? DeCausa (talk) 11:24, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I took the issues as related, so my opening post was meant as a shortened form of 'blanking the page and putting a blocked user tag'. As this seems to be a point of confusion, I'll add that now. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 12:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not gravedancing, and I support replacing the page's content with the tag. GiantSnowman 11:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Personally, never saw the point in sticking labels on pages -- anyone can add the label, the good information --including the reason for the block -- is in the block log, and I'm not aware of any policy requiring such labels -- it's certainly not in Wikipedia:Blocking_policy, and strikes me as just Scarlet letter gravedancing. With regards to page blanking, a discussion regarding the similar situation of a banned user Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy/Archive_6#User_pages resulted with the tag being added to the existing material on the page. The {{blocked user}} template instructions themselves suggest While everyone can add this tag, it should typically only be placed by the blocking administrator. If the blocker doesn't think it's needed, the odds are it isn't. So I'd say its acceptable for Ed17 to add the template. I really don't understand how that improves Wikipedia, and have yet to read an argument that's doesn't strike me some variant of this editor was bad so we have to punish them. NE Ent 11:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

There's no policy reason, no is it common practice, for the redirection of the talk page to the user page -- that should be reverted. NE Ent 11:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed on that point. GiantSnowman 11:34, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The user in question egregiously violated Wikipedia policies, and is unlikely to return. Nonetheless, the block notice should remain on the talk page, and the main user page should be blanked (the reverse of the admin action). IIRC, removal of a block notice is against "da rules", and the current state of the user page appears to show that user in good standing with barnstars. IIRC also, a person blocked for threatening violence is an eensy weensy bit unlikely to be welcomed with open arms, so the distinction here bewteen "blocked" and "banned" is not very strong. Meanwhile "gravedancing" is not the issue here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:41, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Still* made no such threat. Please exercise better responsibility when comes to accusing others of something so serious. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I've struck the text above, as it wasn't a direct threat, but it was the catalyst for his indefinite block. Context and links are at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive771#StillStanding-247_discussing_my_murder. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 12:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso: While not a threat, joking about my murder has the exact same chilling effect. If not, I have a whole lot of murders to joke about. Who should I start with?--v/r - TP 17:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

You're making the mistake, TParis, of assuming I'm in defence of Still*'s joke, that I approve of his telling it. (I'm not, and I don't.) But it's a whole other thing, to turn it into something it wasn't, as several have tried to do. (That kind of irresponsiblity, I guess, is okay by you? Because it isn't with me.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I've never said it was a threat. In fact, when I created the original ANI thread, I had to think of how to say it because it wasn't a threat. But it was certainly chilling and it bothered me. I shrugged off a lot of things that were said about me that week that I could've taken to ANI. The joking about my murder bothered me. My question is: did StillStanding purposefully portray it as a joke to subvert WP:NPA? He was quite talented at getting around WP:NPOV and WP:EW when it didn't suit him. I'm not sure. But I've said several times it wasn't a threat, as far as threats go. So I'm not sure how I am turning it into something or supporting folks turning it into something. What likely happened is folks diverted to the word threat for the sake of ease of associating a thought with verbiage we already use often here. ie. they misspoke and never went back to correct it. That makes more sense to me. Whether there is a block notice or not doesn't matter to me. But to say that the 'joke' was not a threat and therefore acceptable (which you may or may not have said, but others have) doesn't leave me with the most comforting feeling about folks sensibilities.--v/r - TP 23:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I already said I didn't approve of Still*'s joke. (How does that turn into "to say that the 'joke' was [...] acceptable (which you may or may not have said [...]"? It doesn't.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:24, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• The block notice must stay there while he is blocked as does any relevant and directly related discussion about the block (explanation by the blocking admin,etc), any portion that appears to be the death-threat/joke/whateveryouwanttocallit should be hatted or deleted, but the rest of it the page should be able to stay unless there is some other reason to delete. He isn't banned, he is still a member of the community according to our own policies, so he enjoys the right to use his talk page, even if it is limited to Wikipedia related (and not just block related) discussions. If any part of a post need removing (attacks, etc.) then those individual parts can be redacted. If he uses the page for purely soapboxing, then access can be removed. No reason to treat the case any different than any other simple block case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:45, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be clarified that blanking a page isn't grave dancing. Adding to it could easily be, but a simple blanking cannot logically be. Based on that, all the silliness can go away. The only other point is the template, which shouldn't be controversial to add, either. Where's the problem? --Nouniquenames 18:18, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• It's not really grave dancing, but there's no policy-based reason for blanking a blocked editor's page. Doing so has only stirred up more needless drama. Although I think it was blanked in good faith, it would be wise to leave it intact. I also think that the talk page should be restored, but protected if necessary. Dennis Brown's comments are spot-on. - MrX 18:31, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Meh. Restore the pages, add the blocked templates and be done with it. Since SS is blocked from editing the talk page there is no problem. If this editor's off-wiki activities lead others to use this page inapproriately, then those editors can be dealt with if/when that occurs. The only thing this is doing is feeding the zombies who want to eat your brains and gain your knowledge.  little green rosetta(talk)
    central scrutinizer  18:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I've restored the talk page to its state and the time of the block and redacted the comments about terminating another human's life. I've also readded the {{blocked user}} template to the user page -- although I personally disagree with I believe current consensusiness tends towards its inclusion if the blocking admin wants to put it there. NE Ent 23:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't consider this, nor should anyone else, as supporting or endorsing StillStanding's actions. I just think we should follow a consistent protocol for altering the state of Wikipedia pages designated for reference to banned/likely defacto banned users, and fail to see either how blanking improves Wikipedia or is supported by any documented policy. NE Ent 23:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• I just noticed his talk page access had been taken away, not sure why. Was there not a template to that effect explaining the additional block terms? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

  Apparently he posted a private e-mail from another editor. Looks like that edit was deleted and talk page access removed at that time. Arkon (talk) 00:36, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

  • His talk page access was revoked for what I can only assume was soapboxing. He then resorted to socking via ip to avoid the block.   little green rosetta(talk)
    central scrutinizer  03:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
• I just found out about this topic. Before finding out, on the userpage, I reverted back to Ed's last version with a threat in my edit summary to leave the page alone. When I saw the changes to the talk page, I noticed NE Ent's helpful link in the edit summary to this topic. I haven't touched that page but came here. I don't see any consensus here for restoring any content to the userpage, so I don't see why people are screwing with it. As for the talk page, I agree that it shouldn't redirect to the userpage. The only thing that must be kept are any block notices. As for the rest of the garbage on the page, for those who think we can only remove material if he's banned, that seems to be his desire, anyway: "I am not ever going to apologize for the actions of others. Therefore, this indef block might as well be a community ban." That said, I'll leave the talk page alone pending a consensus as to what to do with it (if ever one is achieved).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Is there some reason, grounded in policy, that you believe the user page should be blanked? Is there something on that page that is harmful to the community or the project? It seems that there may be a desire to make this block punitive. - MrX 01:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

That's just the gravedancing argument put in a slightly different way. I agree with the others that there's no evidence of gravedancing or punitive. I also don't see why the fellow's barnstars (including one from you, btw) need to be visible. At the same time, I frankly don't care much as long as the material there isn't being used as an historical platform for the user, but I would defer to the discretion of the blocking admin absent some compelling reason not to. I note that all of the changes to the userpage after Ed made a determination came from non-admins. Why is that? I think this whole discussion is generally a waste of our time.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:57, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

It's hardly a grave dancing argument. It's a question about why you felt it necessary to blank the page, which you have artfully evaded with a dash of innuendo. Blocks are not supposed to be punitive; they're supposed to be preventative. It seems pretty simple to me: don't blank the page because there is no legitimate reason to do so. - MrX 02:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it is a misinterpretation re what Still* wrote to say he "seems to desire a ban". He felt the indef block was unjustified and refused to follow the current norm he perceived at WP of fabricating an admission of misdeed in trade for an unblock. (His statement attempted to draw attention to the predicament imposed on him, i.e. the implication of a process-gone-wrong. Nothing more.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The guy was disruptive enough to be indefinitely blocked AND to have his talk page access revoked. Why anyone cares whether his userpage has barnstars (I would think they would be embarrassing to those who placed them there) or whether his talk page has historical discussion is truly beyond me. I don't think any of what Ed did was gravedancing. What I really think is there are editors who for unfathomable reasons want to defend him. IF there is a consensus on what to do, regardless of my views, I will defer to it, but at the moment there is not.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• I don't particularly see the point of these user page block banners, but if Ed, as the blocking admin, wants to put one there, I'd be willing to defer to his admin discretion on that. It's certainly less obnoxious than some random shmoe slapping a banner on there against the wishes of the blocking admin, which occasionally happens. 28bytes (talk) 02:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Concisely put, and I agree.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I've got Nick-D, DeCausa, myself, Giant Snowman, Dennis Brown, MrX, and little green rosetta disagreeing with the talk page blanking, and Nouniquenames (possibly) agreeing with it, and no one providing a policy reason for blanking. Bbb23, who has admitted reverting the last edit without grokking the edit summary, is the one acting against consensus. NE Ent 03:32, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I really shouldn't look at Wikipedia this late at night; all it ever does is rile me up. NE Ent, your little summation is way off the mark. I did not touch the talk page. I reverted the userpage. And your little deal about who is for what is misleading as some of those editors referred to the talk page, and some referred to to both the user and talk pages. But if you say that I acted against consensus, you have to find a consensus for the user page because that's all I did. My reversion occurred before I read this really stupid topic. I'm happy that the Blade locked the article, and I don't give a shit that it is not "my" version because there never was a "my" version. The only reason I reverted - at the time - was because of the ridiculous edit-war among non-admins and the lack of deference to Ed's actions. This is my last comment here, which I'll no doubt regret, because I'm fed up with the whole thing. I'm going off-wiki again, take a break from this drama-infested madhouse, and try to calm down. It really is true that anger sometimes is inversely proportional to the importance of the problem. I need to get upset about something that actually matters.--Bbb23 (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I absolutely screwed that up, -- confused your edit of user, and user talk page. Facepalm NE Ent 10:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

"Lack of deference to Ed's actions"? Seriously? When I supported your RfA Bbb23, I really didn't think you were going to be one of the rank-and-file "admins can do no wrong" bunch. Joefromrandb (talk) 14:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Is there any dispute at this point that this was a troll account? --Malerooster (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

BTW, Malerooster is almost certainly someone's sockpuppet. That's a conversation for another page; I just wanted to make users here aware of it. Joefromrandb (talk) 07:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think the cock is the one trolling, as he has restored the gravedancing. I think I'm at 3RR (not going to count and not going to risk making some child's day); could someone please revert? Joefromrandb (talk) 03:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Kudos to Mr. X for reverting, and kudos to Blade for not reverting to the wrong version before protecting. There may be hope for this place yet! Joefromrandb (talk) 03:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course, the 'kid' isn't the one hitting the rollback button. No sir, definitely not.--v/r - TP 04:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

For the record I absolutely don't care one way or another what this guy's userpage contains, I just wanted to put a lid on things before I had to hand out blocks. However this is ultimately resolved is fine by me. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I support blanking. What is the point of having Still's thoughts when he is blocked from editing them himself and during his block there is no reason to show anything he posted on his user page. TFD (talk) 07:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there is no reason not to show anything he posted on his user page. Joefromrandb (talk) 17:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Consensus is needed

There really needs to be a community consensus on this issue on whether we should or should not blank user pages after permanent blocking. Because, at this point, such things are applied haphazardly and, generally, well-liked users have people that defend them and stop the blanking of the page, while everyone else gets their pages blanked. Either we blank all of them or we blank none of them, but the current unequal treatment is discriminatory, one way or another. Silverseren^C 08:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• We already have consensus, I explained it above. It is based on the actual policy. Blocked isn't the same as banned. There was a banned discussion, and it was opposed so he is not banned. He is still a member of the community. He is not permanently blocked, he is indef blocked and he has the opportunity to get unblocked. Why people are seeking exceptions to the policy in this one case, I have no idea. We don't need a new consensus, we rely on the existing one, ie: policy. Sockpuppets and community banned users generally have their pages blanked, run-of-the-mill blocks do not except in extraordinary circumstances. As no one has demonstrated extraordinary circumstances, the talk page was restored, then trimmed of offensive material that we would normally redact. Nothing more to see here, time to move along. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• So, page blanking should only be done in the cases of community banned users and sockpuppets? If that's the rule, then i'm fine with it. I just want it to be enforced evenly, because there are still a lot of cases where page blankings are also given when they shouldn't be, if we're following that rule. Silverseren^C 16:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, and what about Arbcom blocks? Since most of those are either for a time limit or are indefinite (but subject to a requested return under an appeal to WP:BASC), their pages shouldn't be blanked, correct? This is something that needs to be fixed because, from what i've seen, most of the users that fall under this have their pages blanked (again, unless the user has a lot of wiki friends that revert the blanking). Silverseren^C 16:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• You are correct, Silver. There is indeed a lot of cases where page-blankings are given when they shouldn't be. Hopefully this will be a good first step toward putting a stop to such foolishness. Joefromrandb (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, Arb cases as well. That Ed blanked it shouldn't be a big deal and wasn't "wrong", just not optimal. I don't think anyone needs to get on his case over it. I'm just saying there generally isn't a need except in these extreme cases, or it should be in the edit summary. My interest is the same, consistency, but we have to acknowledge that the policies are a little cloudy on some of this, so we should be kind and polite when someone does it and we disagree. My main reason for not wanting to blank pages except where needed is due to causing unnecessary drama or discussion. IE: leave well enough alone. But it shouldn't be seen as a big deal either way, and someone could probably just go ahead and archive this up. I think we all have a general idea of what the preferred and usual circumstances for blanking are. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:30, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin; image issues

Experienced image policy editors badly wanted at Talk:Shooting of Trayvon Martin#Biases. In addition, the image File:Trayvon Martin.jpg which I removed from the article was loaded by a short term editor as "own work" but I have serious doubts about that. Not sure whether to take that to the NFCN or not, I have no experience with that. KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I deleted it as a copyvio.©Geni 02:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

thank you; I removed it from the article as a probable copyvio. Would you be so kind as to voice your views at the article talk page? An editor is stating his belief that IAR covers violating the image use policy. I am involved and I am concerned this will become a problem. KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I have been working with images a lot lately so I have reviewed the current set of images and posted an opinion on the article's talk page. Hope this helps. -- Dianna (talk) 03:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope so too. I am deeply concerned when I see someone using IAR in a discussion about copyright and fair use images. Needless to say, I would appreciate anyone else who wishes to take a look and leave an opinion. KillerChihuahua^?!? 04:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

An underage user has outed themselves

Page deleted. 28bytes (talk) 06:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
User:Mustafa_ejero has posted personally identifying information on their user page, including a photo, despite being under the age of 18. Worth looking into. --GSK ● talk ● contribs 05:21, 14 November 2012 (UTC) Why? Doc talk 05:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC) Simply announcing how old you are is not a big deal. If he gave his home phone number and address, I would be inclined to get rid of the page, but this is nothing serious. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me, but that's my opinion anyway. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC) I assumed Wikipedia had a policy on underage users giving out identifying information. That, and I originally thought this was a COPPA issue, but I misread the age cut-off for COPPA. Apologies. --GSK ● talk ● contribs 05:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC) For the record, if there was a <13 year old user who identified themselves, or a <18 year old user who gave out too much public info, that goes to oversight, not a highly-trafficed place like ANI. --Rschen7754 05:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC) Yes, please. Contact your friendly local neighborhood admin before drawing attention to it here. Doc talk 05:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC) Not exactly, it goes to oversight: WP:RFO --Rschen7754 05:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

What is going on?

I recently requested access to AWB which I had already acquired two months ago and unfortunately wasn't aware of that. So, admin Snowolf informed me of the situation. I am thankful to him for that. But then he - based on a calamitous misunderstanding - revoked my access to the tool I had never even got the chance to use. The sheer misunderstanding was that I don't hold the view that I am responsible for every way I use the tool. When actual reality is quite the contrary.

Now one might ask how can a veteran administrator be so mistaken. Actually it's not his fault, it's partly my own fault too. What happened is, once a novice editor had asked me to modify the "automated response" (automated warning messages that STiki leaves on user talk page, not to be confused with edit summary) in such a way that it mentions that it's automated every time (at least, that's the Idea I got from his comments that day). Note: He wasn't complaining about the fact that I warned him through STiki. Also he, not I, was unsatisfied about the contents of the default warning. In that context I merely responded, "I have not created those messages nor did I build that software, so I am really the wrong person to complain to." I was not using that statement as an excuse; I was simply trying to inform him about the nature of STiki. Just to make it clear, I like the default warning messages, and also like notifying users that I reverted their edit. This gives them a chance to get back to me or improve their edits or re-add the deleted data with sources.

I never said that I do not take responsibility. And to dispel any vestiges of doubt there might be in one's mind, I do hereby solemnly swear to take full responsibility for the tools I use on Wikipedia. And the thing is, I never said or meant that I do not take responsibility. However, if someone asks me to change/modify the coding of the tool itself, then that I cannot do as I don't know how. The correct procedure to modify the tools (e.g. STiki, Twinkle, Huggle, etc) themselves is just not within the purview of my knowledge. Hence I wrote that I am not the guy one should be complaining to about the automated/default wording of the warning messages. Again, I didn't say "go complain to him". I repeat, he didn't complain about the fact that I warned him. He, instead, asked me to change the automated warning itself. Had that editor clearly asked me to simply change that particular message on his talk page, I would have gladly helped. Please see that thread and note that I stated that I "take full responsibility" twice, even within that very thread.

One might say that I misread/misinterpreted his comments or that I had spoken out of turn. Yes, there is a slim possibility of these things being true and I regret it. But that is not really the problem we're dealing with here. The the heart of the issue is my views on the responsibility of the tools I use here, which I think I have clarified already. I, as a matter of fact, don't have any problems whatsoever with any tool I use. OTOH, if somebody else has problems with my editing they are invited to inform me (with diffs) and if that discussion fails they can report me. Please restore the access. Thank you all for your time. Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 08:30, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

ANI is not responsible for granting access to AWB. This appears more to be a discussion you should be having with those who handle AWB requests. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I had talked to Snowolf on his talk page about this previously at MrT's request, and Snowolf's reply was firm enough that I chose to not override his decision. Permissions are not something I work with regularly, so I deferred to Snowolf's greater experience but have no prejudice either way. I agree with Bwilkins here that it should be handled at request for permissions since it really isn't an "incident", it is a disagreement about permissions. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Dennis please don't attribute your actions to me when I didn't ask you to do it. I never asked you to go and talk to anybody this time.

"Snowolf's reply was firm enough that I chose to not override his decision." - I never asked you to override anything. You brought it up. Furthermore, you ultimately admitted on your talk that you ″trust and believe″ me that ″this isn't the way it should be taken...″. You don't know how to assign permissions for AWB since you don't use it. Also, a disagreement can be seen as an incident when it involves divesting others of their legitimate access to tools. Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 07:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

No, this is not an incident ... just as a long drawn-out disagreement about content is not an incident and also would not belong here. You disagreed with the reason for a removal of a permission. Fine. Permissions are removed all the time. There are a dozen people who monitor the request for permission for AWB page. Go there; make a polite, well-reasoned re-request with links proving that you have not done wrong. Do not in any way attack someone for doing what they felt was right. If you're successful in doing the above, it may be reinstated by someone else. If not, then wait a few months and retry. There's no immediate need for using AWB, and Wikipedia isn't going anywhere (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:30, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, Bwilkins. I will follow your instructions. But my previous request is still there, is it a problem? Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 13:05, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

ARBMAC enforcement needed

Could an uninvolved administrator with a lot of time on their hands please investigate the latest incarnation of the Yugoslav Wars currently raging on half a dozen article, talk, and project pages? A WP:ARBMAC smackdown is sorely needed, preferably with topic bans liberally applied. (Some of the participants have already racked up ARBMAC warnings.)

To give the briefest possible summary, edit conflicts arose on the articles for Boris Malagurski and his films (The Weight of Chains, Kosovo: Can You Imagine?, etc.). There are two camps of editors involved, one of which has a very favourable opinion of Malagurski's films, and the other a very negative opinion. The anti-Malagurski camp accuses the pro-Malagurski camp of POV-pushing, bad faith, adding unreliable sources, removing reliable sources, copyright violations, conflicts of interest, meatpuppetry, sockpuppetry, block and ban evasion, etc. The pro-Malagurski camp accuses the anti-Malagurski camp of POV-pushing, bad faith, adding unreliable sources, removing reliable sources, copyright violations, abuse of process in the form of repeated AfDs, COIN and SPI reports, etc.

Regardless which of these accusations have any merit (and no doubt many of those made by both sides really do), the problem is that the disputes are spilling over everywhere and are spiralling out of control. As soon as any editor, whether or not they were previously involved in the discussion, attempts to separate out one single dispute for investigation by the community on the appropriate noticeboard, members from both camps flock to it and continue slagging it out over all the other accusations. AfD nominations, RSN reports, etc. end up in a mess of accusations of sockpuppetry, bad faith, etc. carried over from elsewhere. It is literally impossible to isolate and contain any one issue for a proper investigation.

Here is a list of currently affected pages, which probably isn't complete but can serve as a starting point:

• Talk:Boris Malagurski
• Talk:The Weight of Chains
• Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Boris_Malagurski.2C_Talk:The_Weight_of_Chains
• Wikipedia:COIN#Boris_Malagurski
• Wikipedia:RSN#E-novine_on_Boris_Malagurski
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kosovo: Can You Imagine? (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bormalagurski
• user talk pages of pretty much everyone participating in the above

Apologies for posting this while logged out, but I really don't want my account to be drawn into this morass. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like an appropriate use of WP:SOCK#LEGIT (*->BWilkins<-*) 10:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed - and it is hard to assume good faith for this request as a consequence. GiantSnowman 10:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Please try; WP:SOCK#LEGIT isn't an exhaustive list of legitimate uses of anonymity. (Of course, neither is WP:SOCK#ILLEGIT, though I'm not in violation of any of those cases either, and have offered to prove this privately to User:BWilkins.) 149.255.57.233 (talk) 12:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

If the request were aimed at a specific party I might agree with you. This one is quite general however and is just looking for more eyes on EVERYONE. The benefit of the doubt here should be extended. At least until the articles have been looked at.Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Then I fail to see the need for anonymous reporting. GiantSnowman 10:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Surely if they have been involved with it, the returning-stick will hit them hard? Mdann52 (talk) 11:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed it would. If I were actually a member of one of these factions it would be rather stupid of me to come here requesting greater scrutiny of my own role in the disruption. So my use of anonymity is either a means of isolating myself from the problem as much as possible, or else some twisted way of committing suicide by boomerang. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 12:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Anon, my recommendation to you would be to contact an administrator by private e-mail from your main account, so that we can verify you are not otherwise involved in the situation. Send me a note if you like, privacy ensured. Fut.Perf. SU 12:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I've contacted an administrator by e-mail and am awaiting a response. 149.255.57.233 (talk) 15:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello. I'm your admin for this evening. I can verify that User:149.255.57.233 is (a) in my view of unimpeachable character, (b) definitely not Boris Malagurski or anyone associated with him (c) is not one of the principals in the dispute here on Wikipedia, (d) has never edited either of the two mainspace pages in question with their primary account (which is known to me), and (e) appears to genuinely concerned about the failure of dispute resolution on this matter, but without wanting to be dragged in to what appears to be a long-running and bitter dispute. This is not trouble-making but genuine concern. Morwen (Talk) 20:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, but if this person is so concerned why did they not seek to make their concerns known in the course of the various discussions and why do they turn up here directly after Mark Arsten raised the possibility of coming here with UrbanVillager yesterday evening?

"… Sorry if I'm bothering you with all this information, but I don't know what else to do. I tried informing them that Wikipedia is not the place for those kinds of discussions, but this had no effect. Mark, what should I do? Regards, --UrbanVillager (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh hey, sorry that I forgot to respond to this. It totally slipped my mind last week. I only have a minute, but I think you might want to go to WP:DR or WP:ANI depending on how clear the disruption is (ANI will only work for clear disruption). Sorry that I can't be more help, Mark Arsten (talk) 18:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)" See User_talk:Mark Arsten#Boris Malagurski

Opbeith (talk) 21:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I've now been approached at my Talk page by someone using "UrbanVillager"'s user name but clearly a completely different person, offering an oddly framed invitation to work together on the Malagurski-related articles. I regret if I've given the impression here that I was born yesterday. Opbeith (talk) 13:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Coming from the opposite camp to the anonymous reporter I have to say that it is way beyond time for a thorough investigation of matters relating to Malagurski and the promotion of himself and his work in Wikipedia articles possibly involving his ongoing interaction with other editors who expand and defend unbalanced articles to him across a number of different national Wikipedias. While the real-world element is separate from the abuse of Wikipedia procedures, Wikipedia's failure to respond adequately to procedural irregularities when Malagurski's work is politically committed propaganda that denies recent war crimes of the most serious nature does have implications for how people perceive Wikipedia and its reliability. The fact that subject disputes over Balkans issues often seem impenetrable to outsiders is no reason to turn a blind eye when Wikipedia is being used as a vehicle for promoting non-scholarly politically-oriented questioning of legal findings at the highest level of international law. Opbeith (talk) 11:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, lost Edit summary in edit conflict: should have said something like "Thorough investigation overdue". Opbeith (talk) 11:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Anonymous posting in this circumstance is fine per not a bureaucracy -- 149's claims are neutral -- consisting mostly of "please review these pages" and can easily be checked by reviewing those pages. NE Ent 12:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately Ent, WP:ANI is not an "anonymous tip line". It's structured and labelled in a way that the accuser is required to advise the accused. A drive-by anonymous post - as valid as it may be - goes 180 degrees away from that tranparency. (*->BWilkins<-*) 12:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Well if you want to be picky about it - you would have to be of the opinion that 'Please review the situation' requires notifying EVERYONE who may possibly be in the topic area to be notified. Which really is bereaucratic overload.... Anyway the notice is 'You have to notify any user who is the subject of a discussion'. Not really applicable in a general plea for 'more eyes'. Need to be reasonable here. Anyway, suggest IP follows Fut.Perf's sensible suggestion above, although I am going to go have a gander anyway. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Anonymous 149 did in fact notify me and I believe other people (I know of at least one). Opbeith (talk) 13:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

There's been a lot of murky activity revealed in this Malagurski fiasco and this non-transparent report may be an extension of that. What possible repercussions could an uninvolved party possibly fear? This is the third time that UrbanVillager has posted the same exact message and this may have been an attempt to get a bigger audience. [48][49] The numerous and deliberate misrepresentations of editors' actions in his message is hilarious. --* PRODUCER (TALK) 13:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

After being notified that there is a discussion regarding this issue, I feel a little more hopeful that somebody will actually devote some attention to the issue at hand. On one hand, there are more than reasonable rules and regulations on article building, user conduct and dispute resolution, and on the other hand not many people seem to care about any of those things unless if the topic in question is very popular. I've tried following the rules, I made a few mistakes (some because of lack of knowledge, some because I was lazy), apologized for them and did my best to correct them. I've followed advice on how to resolve issues that pop up, and yet, the issues have gotten even more complicated. Regarding Boris Malagurski and his films, I follow information about that via Malagurski's Facebook page (together with 12,000 people who 'liked' the page) and his websites, and I added stuff on Wikipedia I found interesting from time to time (when I found reliable references, of course) and I thought that was the point of Wikipedia - to see what interests you and edit that when you have free time. Of course, other stuff interests me too, I edited a few other articles as well, but I feel like there are a lot of people who already edit most of those other articles, so I did focus on the ones that I thought were neglected to an extent - Malagurski and his work. Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined that somebody would accuse me of being on Malagurski's payroll or Malagurski himself for doing that and for discussing the topic on the talk page of the Malagurski article and the articles of his films.

I hate arguing, and when I noticed that editors like Opbeith were aggressively demanding the addition of blogs and fishy websites as sources, I assumed that unbiased, independent editors would show up and note that this can't be used on Wikipedia. This never happened. However, Opbeith wasn't alone, and several other editors, who seem to really have issues (personal and ideological) with Malagurski and his films (for example, "Malagurski's work is crap" - Opbeith), quickly organized to subvert every single attempt I made at resolving issues in a civilized manned and in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. These editors, User:Opbeith, User:PRODUCER, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner, have as their only purpose, regarding the Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and Kosovo: Can You Imagine? articles, to do any or all of the following:

1. Promoting the addition of slander to the article, using as references Internet forums, blogs and fishy websites that, among other things, photoshop a "BIA" badge, trying to prove that Malagurski works for Serbia's Security Information Agency, on an original photo where there is no badge; or call Malagurski an unemployed Vancouver-based amateur "film director", apologist for Serbian Nazi-collaborating Chetniks and a racist genocide denier (this article the most disputed one they tried to push, carried by E-novine); while, at the same time dismissing actual relevant reliable media sources as "tabloids", including Politika, the oldest daily newspaper in the Balkans.
2. Clogging the talk pages with discussions on just how much Malagurski's work is crap, how horrible the people he interviewed are [50], how Malagurski is just an outright extremist [51], and much more.
3. Not allowing any good-faith discussion to proceed without personal attacks.
4. Personally attacking anyone who disagrees that Malagurski is exactly who they say he is. Accusing me of not allowing the addition of any sources that don't have a positive outlook on Malagurski, which is not true. I agreed to the addition of a Croatian link that described Malagurski's film as "too pro-Serbian".[52] I've also stated several times that I have no personal interest in there not being any criticism of Malagurski and his work, as I believe (and I think Wikipedia does as well) that well-sourced criticism is very healthy for any article, but only if it's truly - well-sourced.
5. Removing sourced material ([53], etc.), promoting the idea that any source that has a neutral or positive attitude towards the topic is all part of Malagurski's "self-promoting machinery", and adding irrelevant poorly-sourced material ([54], [55], etc.) that constitutes original research and POV pushing.
6. Promoting the deletion of these articles. PRODUCER nominated "Kosovo: Can You Imagine?" for deletion, again claiming that the sources that support the notability of the article are tabloids. When I noted that, for example, Vecernje novosti is a renowned Serbian newspaper and news source which exists for almost 60 years now, also the leading Serbian book publisher, with over 5 million books on diverse cultural topics sold, 159 titles including books by Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Proust, Bulgakov, Nabokov, Faulkner, Orwell, Kafka, Sabato, Andric, Crnjanski, Selimovic, etc.[56], PRODUCER went on to change the Vecernje novosti article so that it says it's a "tabloid", without adding a source.

This is a very well-coordinated attack mechanism aimed at slowly destroying the Malagurski article and all articles related to it. I could provide more references to back up these claims, this is just the top of the iceberg. I'd just add that I checked with the sources noticeboard regarding the disputed E-novine source I mentioned before, one editor commented agreeing with me that E-novine was not the kind of source we should use on Wikipedia [57]. Naturally, Producer jumped to defend the source, even calling User:Joy to lend his support. I've tried contacting the film MOS, Dispute resolution, Sources noticeboard regarding the issues in question, but nothing has changed. I believe none of these editors have any good faith when it comes to the articles in question - almost every single edit they made was motivated by any one of the points that I listed. --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

It was at Cultural Conflicts noticeboard a month ago with no real notice. I will drop Bob a note and see if he has any thoughts since it seems to have got worse since then. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• This issue has been raised for discussion in several different places; occasionally UrbanVillager tries explaining their reverts on article talkpages (with selectively quoted policies), occasionally they reply at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bormalagurski or Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard or wherever. I tried starting a thread on Wikipedia:Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard but that didn't get much response. The nature of the underlying problem is complex - self-promotion, sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, misuse of sources, gaming the system, and the more general Balkan Problem which en.wikipedia has always struggled to deal with - so individual noticeboards haven't always coped well with Malaguski-related content in the past. The proliferation is a problem, but then again the underlying issue with articles and editors still isn't getting resolved. The issue is also currently at DRN. If DRN has sufficient teeth to resolve a long-term editing problem which has not been solved by discussion alone, then we should let the DRN thread continue. If DRN is simply a place where people are supposed to discuss until they reach a compromise, the DRN thread will not solve the problem.
• Because Malagurski's films promote a certain nationalist perspective of events in the Balkans, they are guaranteed some opportunistic support from a small number of editors who I might charitably characterise as being on one side or another in enwiki's difficult Balkan editing environment - but a small number is enough to make a big difference on an obscure article. For instance, WhiteWriter (talk · contribs) - who I often disagree with but I'd never deny that they're an intelligent and competent editor - somehow got suckered using sites like this as sources for film-awards supposedly won by one of Malagurski's films. The sources make no mention of Malagurski or his films at all; but, hey, that's how sources and awards work in the Malagurskiverse. WhiteWriter even started a retaliatory SPI against me - claiming that an editor in a different country who I'd reverted and reported to a noticeboard was actually my sock. Usually WhiteWriter has much greater nous and good-faith; but articles connected to Malagurski create a toxic editing environment.
• I would be very appreciative if uninvolved editors could spend some time looking at the editing history, particularly the earliest edits and the timestamps, of any account which appears from nowhere to vote "keep" on any of the AfDs of articles in the Malagurskiverse. Including UrbanVillager. There have been a few AfDs raised by independent editors over the years.
• I respect Uzma Gamal greatly, but am genuinely amazed that Uzma Gamal closed the COIN case with "UrbanVillager does not have a COI with the Boris Malagurski topic" - having had to spend far too much time looking at UrbanVillager's edits I find it very hard to find an alternative explanation - but needless to say this will now be used by UrbanVillager to remove any tags and shut down any future comments on the topic. In particular, UrbanVillager's remarkable ability to find (entirely positive) information about Malagurski which is not readily googled - whether it's uploading own-work photos taken at an event involving Malagurski, or adding information for which there is no documentary evidence at all - has attracted comment from various editors, but that COIN closure is sure to be used to shut down such comments in future.
• I am disappointed by UrbanVillager's continued claims that there is a conspiracy of editors to "slander" this obscure film-maker. I work on a lot of different controversial topics so I'm used to this kind of crap. There is no such conspiracy, of course, but it is a symptom of the problem. bobrayner (talk) 17:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

For those unfamiliar with the Balkan Problem, I'd like to point out these three diffs which illustrate where we're at: [58] [59] [60]. Reliable sources say that Serbia invaded Kosovo, but in the Malagurski-verse Kosovo "re-acceded into Serbia's sovereignty", a TRUTH which must UrbanVillager must maintain - with plenty of reverts - in articles related to this obscure film-maker. I'm happy to provide plenty of other diffs on similar points if necessary. bobrayner (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

My response relates only to 'The weight of Chains', I know very little about any of the other pages and have not contributed to them.

OK, I've said this on 3 seperate dispute notice boards in the last few days, and dozens of times on the talk page. Neither Opbeith,Bobrayner nor I have introduced, or attempted to introduce any material from blogs or similair dubious sources into this article, therefore it would be courteous of UrbanVillager if he would stop saying we had.

I apologise for bolding, but I am really tired of repeating this. If I am significantly wrong in this regard, I will unreservedly apologise to UrbanVillager and others repeating this accusation.

One of the examples of supposedly unsourced material given above was sponsorship information, introduced by Producer and the material was in fact from the film's own website. Producer's only crime was to not provide links to that site. The source of this information was, and is, well known to UrbanVillager (and he also knows that a). I partially supported him in this matter b). a concensus IS being reached on this matter), therefore, either UrbanVillager has a very short memory or he is being knowingly dishonest in citing it as an example of introducing unsourced material.

I really don't want to dispute all the other claims made by UrbanVillager, since I have already done so several times in the last few days and because I believe that a proper examination of the talk page will reveal a sincere wish on my part (and the others I have mentioned), to arrive at a full, fair, balanced account of this film.

Even for the most open minded and fair person, this film does present big problems in knowing HOW to report it. I say this because this film has SO MANY contentious assertions, so often itself relies on (almost universally) discredited evidence, and at times is knowingly intellectually dishonest (I will not cite any of the many emotive/controversial examples of this, but instead cite several times that the voiceover commentary says something SIGNIFICANTLY different - and more contentious - than the document being filmed ACTUALLY says .... when I pointed this out on the talk page, I was accused by UrbanVillager of 'doing original research' (well, yes, I froze the DVD to read the document) and adding 'opinionated comments' to the talk page) .... I believe we MUST be free to discuss the claims/assertions/arguments of the film on the talk page, and also, since this purports to be an account of modern history, be free to discuss INTELLIGENTLY the history which the film claims to be making an account of. Of course, at the end of the day, we need to reach a decision about HOW to describe this film and its claims, but at the moment that is not happening precisely because of these dispute noticeboards.

I have probably already wasted more time than I should have on this anonymous accusation. However I am happy to provide any further information or corroboration should it be needed.Pincrete (talk) 22:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

A little more evidence

• Over at COIN, I have posted a complete summary of all UrbanVillager's edits to article-space. I think this illuminates the COI concerns; I would be grateful if any uninvolved admin (who has a lot of time on their hands) could read through the list.
• That COIN posting focusses on the COI issue. It took a while to put that package together because it's a complex and partially-hidden problem. It's not a complete package - it's still possible to drill down deeper into some edits which appear to show UrbanVillager having what could charitably be called insider access to information. I'll build a second package focussing on the sock/meatpuppetry issue, so please don't close the SPI prematurely. Personally, I think the tendentious editing, misuse of sources &c is a bigger problem, but the DRN thread can wait. bobrayner (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by several users

Hello, since the case is about two users with similar behaviour edit warring over the Bulgaria article, I'll post a notification on both of them.

• User:Ceco31 has made dozens of reverts for the past two weeks. The edits consist of replacement of existing images without prior discussion and adding tendentious statements; my explanation to the user why this shouldn't be done (citing recommendations of the previous FA nomination and MoS on images) has been ignored. The majority of the statements in question are almost exclusively wikipuffery of this kind, although recent ones have been on a larger scale and also consist of poorly formatted sources and text. I have asked the user to cease this sort of behaviour on his talk page, only to receive a negative response.

• User:PPMit, a single-purpose account, for deleting sourced content without explanation. [61][62] The user tends to explain his viewpoint with long and opinionated argumentation and involves other users in time-consuming, lengthy disputes.

All this comes after a 140-kb content dispute involving a tag team of single-purpose accounts demonstrating similar behaviour. Me and several other users (including an admin) - User:Chipmunkdavis, User:WilliamThweatt, User:Jingiby and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise - went as far as dispute resolution and arbitration in an attempt to resolve the issue, but this only resulted in a 3-month block for one of the SPAs, while the rest continued to unleash endless rants, engage other contributors in edit wars and generally waste the time of those who can be productive. The article was in the works for an FA nomination, but the behaviour of Ceco31 and PPMit - who have remained the most active of those disrupting - has been more unproductive at the very least. I believe appropriate measures should be taken here, since the two dispute resolution attempts have failed (due to lack of participation by all users) and the arbitration only sanctioned the most vocal user of this group. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 19:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Based on a report at WP:ANEW, I blocked User:Ceco31 for 72 hours for edit-warring ([63]).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by IP 74.87.9.114

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

See Special:Contributions/74.87.9.114. Practically a vandalism-only account, specializing in blanking, with a preference for blanking interwiki links. Has been warned many times and been blocked before: see User talk:74.87.9.114.

Ratzd'mishukribo (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked the static IP for three months, which not coincidentally is the same time period they have been disrupting Wikipedia with their random section blanking.--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 20:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Juandanikevin2012

This user has been a headache for quite some time now, for several reasons, but most of all due to the lack of any type of communication. For a year and a half, the user first edited as User:Danrivera (the sock thing is apparently bogus, by the way). As you can tell from the Special:WhatLinksHere/User:Danrivera page, there are zero talk page posts. Looking at the edit history, there are zero edit summaries. The same goes for the new account.

Apart from being non-communicable, the user has a history of adding copyrighted material. Look at the talk page of the first user, and it has been an issue from day one. Look at the talk page of the new user, and I have warned the user 3 times (and removed a couple without leaving a warning, too, so there is more).

All text added by this user is copied elsewhere, either from other articles or off-Wikipedia. It is especially obvious when he/she is used erroneously. I assume not being able to communicate with this user has to do with few to no skills in English, so any temporary blocks or warnings is not going to do any good.

I propose a long and overdue indefinite WP:COMPETENCE block. Nymf _hideliho! 20:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

That would not necessarily be a bad idea...an indef block with the proviso for being unblocked as explaining his conduct. I would support this. Go Phightins! 20:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

He was blocked for 24 hours by Qwyrxian. Go Phightins! 20:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yep, blocked for 24 hours prior to me doing this post. 24 hours will not do it, though. Nymf _hideliho! 20:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I figured that, but thought it was worth mentioning anyway. Go Phightins! 22:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Harassment

I would like Viriditas to stop harassing me. I don't know this person on wiki or off wiki and have never edited an article in common, as far as I know. Yet I am being continually targeted by this individual. She/he has repeatedly deleted my user page, saying "Trolling of users", which is not true. [64] She/he has said on my user talk page "Sally Season is just trolling and should be blocked", when that is not true. [65] This person joined an admin page discussion and said "Recommend a block for trolling", when I have never "trolled". [66] This person has said in a page deletion discussion that I am trying to "troll and antagonize the community", when that is not true. Now this person has followed me to an Admin's talk page to ask "how long this trolling is going to be allowed to continue", when I've never trolled.

I've tried ignoring this person, hoping they would entertain themselves with another target, but they persist. Other editors have noted the harassment, with one even recommending "@Viridtas. I, on the other hand, would recommend a block for you for stalking and provocation." [67] I am not asking for blocks, but people have advised me that I can request that someone stay off my pages, or I can request an interaction ban. I can't find a page to submit that request, so I am requesting it here. If he/she is someone from my campus, I want them to know this isn't funny. Thank you for any help,Sally Season (talk) 23:16, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Your TARDIS is malfunctioning. When was the last time I ever edited your user or talk page? Today is November 14 (UTC). You last edited the encyclopedia on November 1, to revert User:Collect.[68] Remember him? That's the guy who uses the term "silly season" a lot, and he's the guy I've said you're trolling with your user name. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• • Good point Viriditas. This already went to MfD and NewYorkBrad declined to delete, putting it on hold instead.[69] No one has deleted it since. This stuff is almost one month old, October 24. I don't see a current incident that an admin can intervene in. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:32, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
    • I agree that the MFD and this complaint don't present a current incident to intervene in, but in reviewing Sally's conduct, I am inclined to issue an indefinite block for disruption. Thoughts? MBisanz ^talk 23:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Diffs? Or dates, I can look it up. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
        • For the record, Sally is referring to the current thread over at User_talk:Newyorkbrad#Deletion_of_userspace, which she considers harassment. Viriditas (talk) 23:39, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
        • I'm looking at User_talk:Newyorkbrad#Deletion_of_userspace at 22:47 specifically. Seems a pretty clear WP:IDHT and WP:BATTLEGROUND in light of this user's prior contribution history. MBisanz ^talk 23:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
          • Agreed, and can we close this either way as quickly as possible, so as not to feed this....person? Arkon (talk) 23:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
          • Yeah Matt, I just found that, which was likely the cause of this report. Honestly, Sally Season has taken a lot of static over the user page at MfD and it doesn't seem to end, so I can understand a degree of frustration by them over the situation. Brad semi-closed the MfD so is somewhat involved, and I voted to keep the page as it not being obviously POLEMIC, so I'm a little involved. I actually understand a degree of the frustration, I would be, too, so the question is "has it passed the reasonable threshold yet?". I will stay neutral on a block because of this, although I would ask that everyone consider the totality of the circumstances and assure themselves that no other option has a reasonable chance of accomplishing the goal before taking such a strong action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
            • The disruption appears to be centered around the notes she keeps in her userspace and that she does not recognize they are disruptive. I believe a measured response would be a indefinite block until she agrees to not keep or discuss notes in her userspace. Regardless of if she has a right under policy to keep notes in her userspace, her conduct related to them has gone beyond what is acceptable. MBisanz ^talk 23:51, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
              • Ok, thought it was still on hold per the MfD (didn't see the strike through on my monitor) so Brad did close as a delete, with it to be deleted on the 5th or so. At this point, I would have to agree that there seems to be a hearing problem on the part of Sally, so I can completely understand the rationale for a block, and why a definite period can't be determined at this point. It is unfortunate, and I had hoped discussion could fix the problem, but reading more, I can understand why you think it wouldn't help, as it would fall on deaf ears. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
                • What? New York Brad says below SS deleted the "problematic" content, didn't he? So why the block?Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
                  • It looks like Sally moved it to a subpage in her userspace. So it still exists and is in use, just not on the "front" page. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 00:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify the chronology, when I went to close the MfD, I saw that a week had been spent on a largely unproductive discussion about some "notes" that Sally Season was keeping on her userpage, consisting of a list of other editors with terse comments, which were probably no longer necessary and which she was insisting on keeping there partly in order to vindicate her right to do so. I thought the proper result for the MfD was "delete," but in an effort to avoid further waste of time, I suggested that Sally Season might wish to remove the notes voluntarily now that another week had gone by. When she declined, I closed the MfD as delete (blank), but gave her a further grace period in case she actually needed to make any further use of the notes. Even though Sally Season still has a userpage (and is entitled to), the notes are no longer there, so the problematic content has been deleted, consistent with the MfD close. Offering no opinion on any other action that might be proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Newyorkbrad. NYB's chronology is mostly correct, but I should clarify a few points. The reason I kept my notepad on my user page is because there was a big MFD template on it demanding that I not delete it, and not "to vindicate her right to do so", as NYB said. I was allowed to edit it however, so I did, and removed the outdated notes with NYB's blessing. I also created a subpage for my notepad, as suggested by several editors, which I was told would help reduce future problems. Several editors also suggested that I replace my shorthand, terse notes with longer, more explanatory notes to stop the wild (and completely wrong) speculation about why editors names appeared in my notes. I did that, too. I see now that NYB has recently removed that template from my user page, so I have just deleted that notepad. If my notepad (in a subpage /Notepad off my user page) is in any way "problematic", it sure would be nice to know why.

Dennis Brown, there are no deaf ears here. I'm doing everything I can to resolve all this stuff, and put it all behind. I realize it looks like the user page mess was resolved a while ago, but there is this one remaining sticking-point I've been discussing with NYB on his page. All the disruption has long since stopped and the disruptors have gone their way, with the one exception noted above who just had to drive by and poke at me again. Sally Season (talk) 02:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts: Viriditas can agree not to make unnecessary posts on SS's page, NYB can manage his own talk page, anyone concerned that SS's username is can file at WP:UAA, and we can close the thread. NE Ent 01:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

And let's add, NE Ent can do more article editing and less kibbitzing in Wikipedia space. (10.5% article edits, 41.94% Wikipedia space edits, 24.23% user talk edits) Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

If you add "Viriditas stops with the silly "troll" attacks", I'll sign on the dotted line immediately.Sally Season (talk) 02:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

[70], [71], [72]. Viriditas (talk) 04:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

User:Useddenim

Useddenim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) accuse me of vandalism. Who had given him such right?

I removed the superfluous information because already there are all icons and other are unnecessary, and i explained page editing. --Туча (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, party I agree with the opinion of Useddenim about this edit. It is a bit strange to remove one American train because American trains do not require special icon or two special icons! This is the usual train. On the other hand, you leave the trams and rapid transport, not clearly American, untouched...

But, I must admit, Useddenims reply looks rather harsh and possesive to me! The Banner _talk 00:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• I've left a message telling them to not use the phrase "vandalism" unless it fit the description under WP:VANDAL. As whether or not Туча's edit was a good one or not, that is not up to us admin, that is to be decided by the editors themselves. I don't see a need for any other action at this point since it was a one off issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:08, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Foreign Influence on US Presidential Election, 2012 (Copyright/BLP Issues)

• Foreign Influence on US Presidential Election, 2012 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Corinne.L.Clark (talk · contribs)

POV piece with original research, poor sourcing. Have nominated this for AfD, and requested intervention at AIV, since article's creator continues to remove maintenance templates, ignores warnings, and won't discuss. Copyright violations and WP:BLP concerns as well. This is a WP:SPA intent on using Wikipedia to make a point. JNW (talk) 03:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I removed copyright vio and BLP. But someone need to look really close. Alanscottwalker (talk) 04:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Also looks like the User is edit warring the BLP and copyvio back in. Alanscottwalker (talk) 04:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Blatant disparaging screed against Obama. Kill. It. With. Fire.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree with the G10 deletion; the article was completely irredeemable thus I've also deleted the userspace copy. I'm somewhat questioning my own judgment in warning instead of blocking the user outright, as I doubt they'll come around given the brazenness of this incident. They should undoubtedly be indeffed if any hint of this POV-pushing behavior returns. Swarm ^X 07:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks to those who joined the AfD discussion, and to Xymmax, the closing administrator. JNW (talk) 12:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Volunteers needed for enforcement of NPOV and ARBPIA sanctions on a current events page

Forgive me if this is polyanna-ish, but the Operation Pillar of Cloud page is about an ongoing Arab–Israeli issue. As we know, this has high potential for edit warring and POV violations. The 1RR restrictions and influx of opinionated editors makes it difficult for non-admins to monitor the page by themselves. So if any admins feel like sorting out a controversial topic with opinionated editors, sign up now! --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 04:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I know I'm going to regret this... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:54, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Somewhat general question: Is it normal to put an edit-notice referencing ArbCom sanctions over relevant articles? Someguy1221 (talk) 04:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is (and especially for articles covering recent events) so that editors are aware of the restrictions in place. Nick-D (talk) 10:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure you will, Blade! That's what we don't pay you for! --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 05:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

99.185.56.156

The user from the IP address 99.185.56.156 has been a persistent problem in the community. The user insists on insulting other editors (especially with the word "liberal"), vandalizing pages with political propaganda, and refusing to discuss matters civilly. I reverted the user's recent comment on my talk page as vandalism. The user has a history of disrespectful editing and has been warned many times. I respectfully request an administrator's intervention with regards to this user. --Ðrdak (T) 04:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Useless. Nothing but "liberal baiting". Has had 2 blocks and numerous complaints in the last 6 months. Should be blocked for a long stretch and talk page should be semi'd. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Blocked for six months. This user's purpose here is obviously incompatible with the project. Swarm ^X 06:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Heironymous Rowe and Dougweller

Dougweller and Heironymous has constantly been attacking users who edit the melungeon page and this has been going on for around 2 years or more. The latest attack came from Dougweller as he falsely stated sockpuppetry and used this to put a block from editing the Melungeon page. They have used false editwar warnings to people after only 1 or 2 edits. Here is the latest from Dougweller "(Protected Melungeon: Persistent sock puppetry (‎[edit=autoconfirmed] (expires 11:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC))))" And as you can see from the melungeon page's edits there was no sockpuppets. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Melungeon&action=history

Then his friend who is also some type of admin here decided to publically use profanity toward me for trying to show my sources and talk this out. "Please take this to the section I started at the article talkpage. And the source you just used above rootsweb.ancestry, STILL ISNT A FU(%ING RELIABLE SOURCE. Heiro 07:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)"

The source I used was actually " 1870 census of johnson county, KY"

I'm not sure what your polciy is on admins using profanity to editors but flat out publically using profanity to editors ( who by the way donate their own money to keep wikipedia running) is not acceptable behaviour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Heironymous_Rowe#Melungeon_sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) 07:48, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Here is what Rowe had left me a message of before I tried to show him my sources in his talk page "But you are someone who has yet to take their disputed sourcing to WP:RSN, who has yet to abide by WP:BRD, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:RELIABLE and WP:EDITWAR. Continuing to insert unreliably sourced material into this article will result in this matter being taken to the WP:3rr board. Please come up with reliable sourcing or stop inserting this information into the article. Thank you, Heiro 00:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk)

The 1870 Federal Census is being cited but does it actually state that "David Collins is a proven Vardy Collins descendant"?Shearonink (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Not an admin, nor have I ever claimed to be. I did make the edit above, on my own talkpage in frustration after their repeated refusal to take this to the article talkpage section I had started, and then thinking better of it immediately removed it, once again pointing them to the article talk page. Anyone who wishes to can go look at the recent article history and weigh in at the article talkpage. I could actually use a voice of reason there. Heiro 08:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

This is a bad thread. It should be resolved quickly, as it is not a legitimate thread for this board. IP socking is obvious here. Just saying. Doc talk 08:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

No there was not any repeated refusal, people can see this on your talk page. You started that AFTER I LEFT YOU MESSAGES...and it was NOT repeated. This can bee seen all in your talk page edits. And yes you have told people you are a admin and you have threatened to have people banned numerous times to...you and your friend Doug. But now you have resorted to using profanity to users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) 08:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Sigh, you haven't exactly stuck to one IP address, see these User_talk:76.8.172.103, 76.8.174.113, as wells as num erous edit summaries in the article history. Heiro 08:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Heironymous Rowe is not an admin.[73] If he has claimed to be one, as you assert, you need to show those diffs. Doc talk 08:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I've been here since 2008ish, and have never once claimed to be an admin. Period. Anyone can feel free to scroll through my contribs. Heiro 08:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

You use a whois to find sock puppets....Nothing I have done constitutes sock puppet. You and your friend have for over 2 years harassed and threatened other editors who do not agree with you. You and your friend does what ever it takes to keep people from editing numerous wikipedia pages that deal with indian or black race. And yes you have on numerous occasions told people you are a admin and threatened to ban or block them from pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) 08:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay - I call incompetence and/or trolling. The very idea that this editor and their "friend"(s)? keep people from editing "numerous wikipedia pages that deal with indian or black race". Buh-bye. Seriously, now. Doc talk 08:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Not really either, just POV pushing and WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT. They insist on using sources that do not pass WP:RELIABLE for genetics on a page about an ethnic group. Several editors, of which I am one, have asked them to please provide sources for their claims. They continue to use blogs, forums, WP:SYNTH, etc. If you look at my contribs, I edit mostly archaeological sites related to Native Americans, Dougweller is an admin who concentrates on archaeological sites and on keeping WP:FRINGE material and badly sourced material out of artic les dealing with these subjects. Heiro 08:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

again back to the profanity, here is your reply simple from me informing you about me putting you on this talk page (which I'm required to do), Harassment? No, requesting adequate sourcing is not harassment, it is part of policy. Profanity? Not against the rules here. Also, Wikipedia users do not pay to edit here. Now, take this to the damn article talkpage and see the list of reasons why your sources are inadequate. :-) Heiro 08:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.167.38 (talk) Actually as I have stated before out of ALL the sources, only 1 was from a blog, only 1, and that is the blog of the co founder of the melungeon dna project and that blog was full of sources right there when you go to it. So it was only 1 blog. You have also removed family tree dna sources that state against what the melungeon page stated yet you had that removed and said it was not a wikipedia used source even though the Melungeon DNA was done thru Family tree DNA and family tree DNA is who tested the dana and is who runs the melungeon dna project.

Obvious block-evading sock is obviously blocked. The end. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this in the ARBMAC realm? Fringe stuff? Oh, boy... Doc talk 08:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Who's he a sock of? Swarm ^X 08:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

(EC)Not to quibble with the block, but to be fair and honest I'm not sure they are a block evading sock or I would have asked for a block sooner in this saga. They do occasionally switch IPs, but I don't think that is their fault, more their ISP. Another editor who is a block evading sock (User:Marburg72)(IPs usually begin with 166.147.) is a WP:FRINGE pushing editor who likes to follow me around and be disruptive, and has hit this article several times. I have no reason to believe these are the same two people. A case for a block of 76.8.167.38 could be made on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:EDITWAR could be made, but since they're blocked now I guess it doesn't matter. Heiro 08:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It's possible he's telling the truth that he's not a sockpuppet or evading any blocks. I still would have blocked him for a week for edit warring and general disruptive behavior. It's apparent from looking at the edits under his current and former IP addresses that he is presently incapable of working in a collaborative manner. Either he learns to use dispute resolution or he'll keep getting blocked. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Whatever it is, I don't think its ARBMAC. Perhaps Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence is a little closer, but not quite there either, imho. bobrayner (talk) 08:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Well the first link is about info that certainly falls under 'race' (DNA testing and racial grouping). So I would say it squarely hits R&I. Unless R&I is to be taken literally in that it must be both race AND intelligence... But I dont think it is. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Why are we going by titles of cases? The decision itself says the area of conflict, where discretions sanctions maybe handed out is 'the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed'. While I see a lot of stuff relating to race here, I don't see anything related to abilities or behaviour so I don't see how this falls under R&I. However at the very least it looks like there are BLP issues and really anyone who thinks nonsense about the maritial status of the founder of some random DNA testing company and what awards the company has won belongs in an article about a people needs to step away from editing until they familiarise themselves with how to write an encylopaedia. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)