Talk:Taiwan

Split

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal to split the article. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal to split the article was not split. (non-admin closure) wctaiwan (talk) 05:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

{{split}} Geographically, the former is the sum of the latter, Kinmen, the Matsu Islands, Wuciou, the Pratas Islands, and Taiping Island. Historically, the latter is much longer than the former. 14.0.208.97 (talk) 04:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Please no. There's already enough of a mess, we don't need more of it. Yes, Penghu, Fukien (ROC) and the SCS islands aren't part of Taiwan Island, but for the sake of simplicity, let's just call the sovereign state "Taiwan", after all it seems that the community doesn't like the term "Republic of China" anymore. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I understand your anxieties. But the current state is far from satisfactory. Why don't we take a head-on approach to address the problem? My proposal isn't going to (re)introduce "Republic of China" as part of any article title. (Meanwhile, the Pescadores are part of Taiwan from geographical, lingual and sociocultural point of view.) 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose This is hair splitting and would create two separate articles that cover largely the same material. The distinction between the geographic location and the state, or for that matter the country and the state or the country and the geographic location, is better handled within the article than by creating separate articles for each slightly different but mostly overlapping concept of "Taiwan".Readin (talk) 07:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: There's nothing much different from, e.g., Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, Micronesia and the Federated States of Micronesia, or perhaps Great Britain and the United Kingdom. 14.0.208.107 (talk) 07:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment As someone else noted, there is a Geography of Taiwan article that serves as a Taiwan (island) article to the extent that one is needed. Readin (talk) 06:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Geography of Foo are articles for Foo, whereas Foo usually got the same meaning and covers the same thing as the article titled Foo. 14.0.208.59 (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, this is hair-splitting that gives no advantage to the reader. Even readers familiar with the topic will likely find such a split confusing and bothersome. This is Wikipedia, not a dictionary. The topic is Taiwan. That topic covers geography and politics, demographics, history, etc. If in certain rare circumstances the word Taiwan can take two extremely closely related but somewhat distinct meanings, this is not important, because nothing in the way wikipedia works requires us to infinitely taxonomize words and their possible meanings into a myriad of seperate articles without a single article of the topic generally. A country has a geography, its a part of the concept, it shoudn't be split off just becuase of one detail- the fact that the country is commonly refered to (in English) by the name of the island which represents the great majority of its territory. There is no reason this can't be explained in simple terms in the article titled “Taiwan". - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 09:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • These circumstances aren't rare. 14.0.208.48 (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. An article on a large island will generally include small, dependent islands nearby. Only a tiny percentage of readers will know, or care, about the peculiar legal status of Quemoy, Matsu, or Taiping. Kauffner (talk) 13:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • It's like saying Hawaii is part of North America, or French Guiana and Réunion are part of Europe, just because they're politically part of a North American or a European country. Do you consider Northern Ireland to be part of Great Britain? 14.0.208.48 (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Kauffner are you suggesting that the "tiny percentage" can be and should be ignored? Are Northern Ireland, Hawaii, French Guiana, Mayotte and Réunion insignificant and peculiar enough to be simply disregarded? 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• The outlying islands are mentioned prominently in the opening paragraph, so they are getting more attention than they deserve as it is. Who is this proposal supposed to benefit? Those who do not understand the issue will not be able to figure it out from the proposed parentheticals. The country is primary topic, so the title of its article should be in the form most recognizable to the reader. Kauffner (talk) 10:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• As I've mentioned, the two articles can be titled Taiwan and Taiwan (island), i.e., the country article can stay with the present title. 14.0.208.59 (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. We hashed this out when this article was moved to Taiwan, but "Taiwan" is overwhelmingly the common name for the country. That along is enough reason to leave this article where it is, but there's also no need to split as Geography of Taiwan already exists, with Taiwan (island) linking to it. --JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 13:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Geography of Taiwan is an article about the geography of the country. You don't redirect Great Britain to Geography of the United Kingdom. 14.0.208.48 (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
    • But "Taiwan the island" is only a geographical entity, not a political one, while the split proposal starts "Geographically..."; if the reason for splitting is to distinguish the historical and political from the geographical then those articles both already exist. Finally you should get yourself an account if you want to participate fully in this discussion or similar ones. With what looks like an ever changing IP you may find yourself classified as a single purpose account and your views given less weight then they deserve.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 18:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Yes and no. It used to be a political one, before 1945, as a colony that appeared in post-war treaties and agreements. It also used to be coterminous with the namesake province before municipalities were split off from the province (in 1967, 1979, and 2010). Further, it's a cultural identity. Inhabitants shared the languages, culture, cuisine, experiences, and so on and so forth, that people identify themselves with terms like ben-sheng-ren. This identity isn't shared by people from other parts of the modern-time country. (For example, the 228 Incident and the Retrocession Day aren't relevant to them.) Currently only one article exist for the two different concepts. On your final point, I am not editing for single purpose. Editors have the duty to avoid stereotyping. 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Then you may be looking for History of Taiwan which goes into the history in greater detail. But again, this was resolved not long ago: the common name for the country is overwhelmingly Taiwan, so this article is not going to move, or be replaced with a disambiguation page, any time soon. And my advice on getting an account was just that: advice. If you intend to spend any time here it makes sense for many reasons.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• That's just a proposal. The two articles can be named Taiwan (country) and Taiwan (island), or Taiwan and Taiwan (island), or anything that's adequately accurate, reasonable and logical. 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. common name being Taiwan. Whats up with this splitting of articles 14.0.208.87 ? He has done the same on the Zypern article.23x2 _φ 23:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Agree with UCN. That's why I said having two articles with the titles Taiwan and Taiwan (island) is also possible. 14.0.208.59 (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think I'm slightly against a split. While I'm for splitting Cyprus due to the complex geopolitical issues at play there, there are no such issues with Taiwan. Taiwan the country consists of Taiwan the island, associated smaller islands, and Quemoy and Matsu closer to the mainland. The article on the geography of Taiwan should be sufficient for information on the island. However, I'm also not averse to treating landmasses individually. The island of Cyprus is not coterminous with the Republic of Cyprus (presumably it includes associated islets), the island of Taiwan is not coterminous with the Republic of China, the island of Tasmania is not coterminous with the state of Tasmania, etc etc, and I think we would be served by having articles on every individual landmass in the world regardless of their political status. However, the current style on Wikipedia appears to be to go with the political entity for the article, and relegate details of the singular island to a "Geography of [entity]" article. So while I won't urge for a split, I won't challenge one either. (Note that, should there be a split, the article for the country should definitely remain the main article. The only one that doesn't is Ireland, since that's the only situation of a split landmass that I can think of where one of the entities shares its name with the landmass) --Golbez (talk) 14:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
• comment as redirects are cheap and to address perhaps one of the concerns of the proposer, that and article on the country should be reachable at Taiwan (country), I've created a redirect to that effect. This does not preclude the split happening should consensus somehow form that it should, and means otherwise that anyone using the search box to find the country article will have one extra link to point them to the right article.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 20:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Hairsplitting, and will simply create confusion for users. 38.104.120.214 (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per comments above.--R-41 (talk) 19:06, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

NPOV

First, a disclaimer. I do not dispute that the Republic of China today is often referred to as "Taiwan". I do not believe Taiwan is part of the People's Republic of China, nor that it should be.

Now, the issue. To put it simply, the Republic of China, the state which has existed from 1911 and contiues to exist today, is a notable subject and should have an article on Wikipedia, but it has none. "Republic of China" is redirected to this article, which is about Taiwan the island/province/colony/self-govering entity/country (as it has changed throughout history), but there is no article on Republic of China the state.

The subject of the article is not just the Republic of China today. It is about the island of Taiwan, from pre-Republic of China days down to the present day. The correct title for this article should be Taiwan. It is conceptually anachronistic to try to cover the history of the non-Taiwan part of the Republic of China in an article about Taiwan, when the only unifying factor of these parts, the Republic of China, did not even control Taiwan at the time.

I understand the reasoning which is reflected in the current set-up. For Wikipedia to adopt this reasoning is in violation of NPOV. In a topic with many competing interpretations as this, the NPOV way forward is to describe things as they are, without an added layer of biased interpretation. As the articles currently stand, the implication is that the Republic of China which existed from 1912 to 1949 was a different entity to the one which existed from 1949 onwards. The argument is often trotted out by the Communist government on the mainland but the historical fact is that there was no discontinuity in 1949, but a progressive reduction of territory. The argument is susepct and reflects a marginal view in mainstream understanding of the topic. Most importantly, it is an opinion, a gloss on the facts, not the facts themselves.

If this article is about the state, then it should cover the state. If it is about the island, then it should cover the island. To superimpose the two topics on one another is anachronistic, illogical, and, as I say, presents opinion as fact. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

There is another article title "Republic of China (1912-1949)". The current content describing the history of Taiwan along with the central Government on Formosa since December 1949 should not be titled as any term related to China. Most Taiwanese People now firmly reject to be confused with China, in daily life or on Wikipedia. No more, period. Most importantly, the Government in Taiwan based on liberal democracy is quite different from the government established in China in 1911. The official name of Greece is "the Hellenic Republic" and almost everyone accept it. -- Wildcursive (talk) 21:35, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The only thing that I could suggest is renaming "Republic of China (1912-1949)" to "History of the Republic of China (1912-1949)", since, despite everything, there does appear to be a straight line of power. But at present, "Taiwan" being a short-form name for the Republic of China is not at all in dispute, even if the RoC wasn't always merely Taiwan. --Golbez (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I thought, per the agreement that this article was about the Republic of China and Taiwan, that the history section inluded both the pre-1949 history of Taiwan and the 1911-1949 history of the ROC. But the ROC part isn't there. Did it get moved? Why and when? I'm all in favor of having separate articles for the country (Taiwan) and the government (ROC), but we had reached a hard-won consensus. How did it get changed? Readin (talk) 04:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

1. Political-wise, the mixture of "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" is only in favour of Communist-party point of view, since the mixture conforms Communist Party's claim that RoC is dead after 1949 and now "RoC" is only an old-fashioned nickname of Taiwan. And "Republic of China (1912-1949)" sounds like a lifespan of a dead person.
2. For those who support one Republic of China (Pan-Blue), needless to say, 1949 was only a progressive reduction of territory and it should not be discontinuity in history.
3. For those who support RoC gov't to forgo territory claim for Mainland China and change sovereign name into "Taiwan" (Pan-Green), RoC does not represent Taiwan and should be out of Taiwan, and thus should not be "the official name of Taiwan", as written here but not Taiwan's article in Chinese zh:臺灣. CommInt'l (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

There are primarily two reasons the year 1949 is used:

1. The year 1949 is used in reference to the creation of the PRC, at the time the RoC Capital was located in Canton. In this case, 1949 is a POV date set by the PRC who feels that it is the year the PRC was created, hence the RoC becomes non-existent and 'succeeded' by the PRC.

2. The year 1949 is used to refer to the capital being moved to Taipei in Dec. 1949, thus beginning the 'RoC on Taiwan Era'.

Again, regardless of which viewpoint is used, the RoC controlled considerably more territory than just Taiwan immediately post-1949. Hainan was not lost until 1950. Several parts of China were not pacified until well into the mid-1950s. RoC troops controlled what was western Yunnan were not pushed out until 1961, until then Taiwan consisted of at most ~50% of RoC's territories (western Yunnan was about the size of Taiwan). 204.126.132.241 (talk) 16:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Having read the debate logs and the closing decision from February 2012, I note that the closing decision by the "triumvirate" says: "An article narrowly formulated about the government of Taiwan and its history can be created at Republic of China." I think this is an eminently sensible, if not (in my view) ideal solution to the issue. Can anyone shed any light on why this part of the original decision was not carried out?

Alternatively, the previous position as Readin pointed out is also preferrable to the current situation.

Either of these solutions would be preferrable to the current situation, which, as CommInt'l emphasises, whether intentionally or not, privileges only the Communist Party view of the ROC as a local authority of Taiwan and a different insitution to the ROC which existed before 1949. I really don't think that is either in accordance with Wikipedia policy or the spirit of the administrators' decision in February 2012.

(Wildcursive, there is no need to educate me about the political situation, I assure you I am sufficiently familiar with it.)

My preferred proposal would be to carry out the part of the administrators' decision in February 2012 quoted above, that is to create a summary article at Republic of China, narrowly focused perhaps on the government and its continuous history from 1912, with appropriate references to this article as the main "country" article, and the history articles mentioned above.

(In light of the administrators' decision in February 2012, I am not suggesting turning Taiwan into a geography article and Republic of China into a political article.)

In light of the administrators' decision in February 2012, I think this should be non-controversial implementation rather than some sort of attempt to re-write the consensus. Your thoughts?--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The original RoC article (this) was written as such until the 1912-1949 article was created and everything pre-1949 was ported there (without extreme controversy). When this article was renamed as 'Taiwan' from 'Republic of China', the original stance by the admins was that this article was to talk about the Republic of China as a whole, with only the title to be renamed as 'Taiwan'. However, some people jumped ship and created the (mainland RoC) article and ported everything there. Creating another 'RoC as a whole' article will be very controversial, and to be honest, people are tired of arguing for this and that. You can try to write one, but you will see a lot of hate coming from most of the community (Greens will argue RoC = Taiwan, Reds will argue RoC = dead, Blues are just not there anymore to back you up). The most realistic thing you can achieve is probably to ask to rewrite 'Republic of China' as a disambigulation article. 204.126.132.241 (talk) 16:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Anon, I think you are mis-interpreting the original decision, it clearly had three parts: "Taiwan = country article", "Taiwan (island) = geography article", and "Republic of China = government/history article". This isn't about political lines, it's about implementing the decision that was supposed to substitute for a consensus in the absence of one. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The original decision specifically said that only the article was to be renamed due to naming protocols. However, the Admins also acknowleged that this does not mean RoC = Taiwan, and that the article per NPOV policy is to still continue refer to the RoC as RoC. But many people jumped the gun saying RoC != Taiwan before 1949 and wella, you have this article created and a bunch of other overlapping mirrors. Liu Tao (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Reds will argue ROC = dead and Greens will also argue ROC = dead. The former sees Taiwan as their province and the latter sees Taiwan as their nation/country. Both want to erase the ROC which is what probably got us to this point in terms of these articles. Blues have to counter both fronts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe the PRCs position right now is that the ROC is a local government within the PRC. And the greens are divided with some claiming the ROC is illegitimate while others believe it is merely has an anachronistic name. Readin (talk) 21:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Nay, PRC's position is that the RoC is a separatist government who refuses to submit to the rule of the 'Central Government' in Beijing. Greens are divided particularily over if RoC = Taiwan. Ironically, the far-left agrees with the Blues that RoC != Taiwan. It's the more moderate Greens who thinks RoC = Taiwan. But all in all, they all have one goal, Taiwan independence. Moderates wants to do it by renaming the RoC to Taiwan. Deep Greens are more logical in terms of law, to declare the RoC non-existence and creation of a Taiwan Republic. Liu Tao (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree to rewrite 'Republic of China' as a disambigulation article to list related articles mentioned above. It can simply describe the evolution of who use this term. What I emphasized was the ROC established in mainland in 1912 without Taiwan is almost totally different from the ROC on TAIWAN since 1949 without mainland (except some minor areas for a brief period). There is no connection between the 1912 Beijing government and TAIWAN while the Nationalist government established not until 1925/1928. So there are actually roughly 4 periods: 1912 government in Beijing, 1928 Nationalist government, 1945-1949 ROC, ROC on TAIWAN since 1949. The separation of the original article "Republic of China" is based on history, geography, identity, politics, and all other realities. Rewrite a brief article as an existence can solve the problem to relink "Republic of China" on enwiki to "zh:中華民國" and relink "Taiwan" to "zh:臺灣". -- Wildcursive (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

No, "Republic of China" article should be created and maintained in addition to "Taiwan" article because the government's linage can be traced to the 1912 government formed in mainland China, and the constitution in-force today is written and ratified in mainland China while ROC was still recognized as the legitimized government of China. All other periods can be subsumed into this "Republic of China" to describe parts of its history. --Will74205 (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I think a separate article to talk about the ROC as a government that ruled China, and then briefly Taiwan and China, and finally just Taiwan is a good idea. It should also talk about the modern day government. This would fit with "An article narrowly formulated about the government of Taiwan and its history". When the ROC moved from China to Taiwan it maintained many of its institutions, people and laws (whether or not those laws were followed).

However I think we'll have a hard time finding a way to satisfy some pan-blue editors. Since the Taiwan article is about the modern day nation/state, I can see pan-blue protests that Republic of China should redirect to that nation state because Republic of China is the official name of that nation-state. If we make Republic of China a disambiguation page some will protest that the Republic of China deserves better than that (I do have some sympathy for but as an American I would point out that even the America is a disambiguation page - I say I have sympathy because clearly the America page should be about the United States of America and I find it a bit insulting that it isn't). Readin (talk) 05:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

It's actually fairly easy to satisfy the Blues, right now they are on the defensive, not the offensive. Throughout the past several years, RoC related articles have slowly been 'Taiwanised'. The creation of this article and the renaming of the RoC as 'Taiwan' was the final straw for many Blues. Post-renaming, most blues actually argued for a disambigulation article, but the requests were largely ignored or shut down by the greens and reds. When disambigulation requests were ignored, this article split was created, with very poor judgements. Liu Tao (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I find the politically obsessed nature of some posts here amusing. I had never heard of the term pan-blue until just now, but I have very strong feelings about the naming of articles in this topic area. My views are all based on the basic Wikipedia principle of what the common name is. I just want to emphasise that one doesn't have to be deeply involved in the politics of the area to have a perfectly valid opinion based on Wikipedia policy. HiLo48 (talk) 09:54, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Well I'm pretty sure the average Taiwanese don't know the terms teabaggers and tories either. Those aware of Taiwanese/Cross-strait politics will be influenced by their viewpoints one way or another; it's not supposed to be as big of an issue as everyone seems to be making it (I don't see it as a problem anyway), but nonetheless you really shouldn't laugh it off either. Given that we're dealing with quite a contentious topic here, there's no doubt that some (not all) people will base their actions on whether they're pan-blue oder pan-green leaning. Similarly, many people might deny it, but there are plenty of editors on Wikipedia that are vehemently pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-abortion, anti-Zionist as well. Topics like these attract those who are, by your words, "politically obsessed", and that's something you're gonna have to deal with. Not everyone is politically motivated to edit, but some editors definitely are. If you don't want to be part of the mess, that's fine. Don't go around dismissing others' genuine concerns. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The hilarious bit is that those whose editing is purely politically motivated think everybody else's is too, and that to edit here one must be part of one side or the other. I have very strong views in many political areas. (Although obviously not Taiwan/China issues.) I like to think I keep my views out of my editing. During the recent US Presidential campaign I was accused many times by both sides of being a supporter of the other as I kept pathetic political nonsense, incredibly distorted perspectives, and simply blatant lies out of the articles on the major candidates. I try to do the same for every topic. So I laugh at those who write as if all editors are as motivated as they are to make these articles non-NPOV. HiLo48 (talk) 21:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

HiLo48, like every other editor, I have my own views on controversial issues such as this, but I would like to believe that everyone can at least set aside their prejudices sufficiently to reach for a compromise. Having views, even strong views, on a subject does not disqualify one from participating in a discussion. Like Adam Smith's invisible hand, the expression of many different views only helps to establish what the NPOV or compromise position should be. Even ignorance of an issue is not a bar to participating in a discussion, since that will help establish whether the article is pitched at the right depth for the range of readers for whom this site is supposed to cater. However, we need to be careful not to deny other people's views simply on the basis of our own prejudices or level of knowledge. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with all of that. My comment was about those with strong views and detailed knowledge of the political background to the article, who assume that every other editor interested in this article is motivated in the same way. Comments like "It's actually fairly easy to satisfy the Blues, right now they are on the defensive, not the offensive" (made after mine) are really quite inappropriate here. They are not attempts to make this a better article. And down below you thank that editor for his contributions. Sad. HiLo48 (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

In order for this to be a good article with NPOV, all views have to be expressed. Right now, this article (and many of the articles related to "Taiwan" aren't doing that. In an article about America, you have to talk about Republicans, Democrats and even Federalists. All of it and everything. In summary at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 15:14, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

My apologies HiLo48, I misunderstood your previous message. I agree that labelling others as "pan-blue" or whatnot and fighting this like an ideological battle is not helpful. My apologies for omitting you from my list of acknowledgements - my list below was based on those who had commented on the specific issue and proposal, but thank you for your contributions, they are helpful to the course of the discussion even if they were not directed to the proposal per se (unless I missed a post from you?). However, I do not think that it is inappropriate to thank Liu Tao, clearly he/she got slightly carried away, but as I said above, all sorts of views, expressed in good faith, are helpful, and Liu Tao's comment, while not ideally expressed, was addressed towards reaching compromise or consensus. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I think if Liu Tao's comment had been intended to suggest that we take advantage of the pan-blues while they're done, or to say that we've got them on the run so let's press are advantage, then it would indeed have been highly inappropriate. However I'm pretty sure he's pan-blue so I didn't read it as being so hostile to pan-blues. Readin (talk) 13:14, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, especially Readin, Benlisquare, Will74205, Wildcursive and Liu Tao, your posts are all very enlightening. I think I detect a consensus to create a short summary article narrowly focused on the government and history of the Republic of China in all its guises at Republic of China, at least disambiguating between the various articles which now exist on the topic, though being careful of course not to duplicate the country article which already exists here - this was part of the original decision. Could you please let everyone know if this is not a correct summary of the consensus? As a concrete proposal, I propose to create a disambiguation-style stub at Republic of China, which will provide a "landing page" if you will for readers searching for "Republic of China" in different contexts (e.g. whether they were wanting to read about Taiwan or the pre-1949 regime), and will take them on to the more detailed articles at "Taiwan", the "1912-1949" article, and any other relevant articles. This stub will then be grown incrementally to become the summary article narrowly focused on government and history as per the original decision, with the precise contents and depth of the article (within those parameters) to be ascertained through incremental discussion over time. Is this an acceptable way forward? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The disambigulation page already exists. All you need to do is try to get the page renamed. 204.126.132.241 (talk) 02:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, I am not talking about the Republic of China (disambiguation) page. That page is a pure disambiguation page, treating "Republic of China" like any ambiguous term. That may or may not need to continue to exist after the creation of the new "Republic of China" page. What I am proposing here is a landing page, a "disambiguation article" (as Wildcursive put it) which is more in line with the original administrators' decision, i.e. it is an article, perhaps starting as a stub, which links together the relevant pages. In that sense it is dismabiguation in style, but it is not a true disambiguation page because it will have content, but it will not disturb the integrity of this page at Taiwan. I see this approach as reflecting the consensus view of the comments above. I will park the proposal here for a couple of days to see if there are objections. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:25, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation article? So in other words, kinda like the old China article? Or at least the lede of the old China article? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

A little like that, but without duplicating the Taiwan article the way the old China article would have duplicated the present People's Republic of China article. As I envisage it at the moment, it would introduce the "Republic of China" with an emphasis on the conceptual continuity, then it would summarise the history, and lead at a fairly early point to the fact that in contemporary contexts the Republic of China governs / is synonymous with "Taiwan", with a link to this article. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I think a distinction has to be made that "Republic of China" is not synonymous with "Taiwan." That's a particular POV.

Hmmmmm. We need to be very careful with language here. The article was renamed to Taiwan because it's the common name. For most of those for whom it's the common name (and there's an awful lot of them - hence the change), "Republic of China" IS synonymous with "Taiwan." It's got nothing to do with the politics of the region. It's not "a particular POV". It's fact. HiLo48 (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It's a false fact that should not be perpetuated by Wikipedia. It's a fact that the vast majority of countries adhere to the One-China policy and those that don't openly adhere to it recognize the Republic of China as "China," not "Taiwan." The Constitution of the Republic of China does not recognize ROC=Taiwan and the Constitution of a free and sovereign country should not be lightly ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 21:49, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

You don't get it. You're too involved with the politics, as exemplified by the detail you've gone into even in that response. It's an absolute simple and clear fact that, to most English speakers on Earth, "Republic of China" IS synonymous with "Taiwan". It's not a POV. It's the way the rest of the world looks at the reality in that part of the world. People seeing things that way are not making a choice about what POV they should have. To them, it's what things are. Yes, the article can go into some detail about the history, but I can assure you that it won't change that "common name" understanding. HiLo48 (talk) 23:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

What is your source? Because most of the Americans I know think Taiwan is a part of China; they both speak Mandarin. I've talked to people who think the Republic of China is still an authoritarian government. My point is, the vast majority of the people of the world don't know much about the ROC and as an encyclopedia, Wikipedia has a duty to represent facts, not perceptions.

This probably says more about your choices in friends than it does about Americans in general. --Golbez (talk) 01:17, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

You logged into the wrong account, HiLo48. — Preceding

unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.143 (talk) 01:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

HOLY SHIT! HiLo, did you see this? DID YOU SEE THIS I AM SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW, 159 you should know that HiLo and I, ok, we kind of hate each other and very very rarely agree, so this makes my fucking night that you would think we're the same person. (Also, since HiLo's only been here since 'aught eight, shouldn't this more correctly be stated "You logged in to the right account, Golbez"?) --Golbez (talk) 04:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

(Outdent) Yikes, you guys. I think we can all agree that the "Republic of China" is synonymous with "Taiwan" when used in some contexts and not in others, and leave it at that? That the two terms are not conceptually identical is the reason I raised this in the first place (and if you take a look at the "Reader feedback" linked to at the top of the page, you can see I'm not the only one who was confused). However, in certain contexts they are used as substitutes for each other - when I land in Taiepei, whether I am greeted with "welcome to the Republic of China" or "welcome to Taiwan" pretty much amounts to the same thing. The precise extent to which the terms are synonymous or not can be worked out elsewhere. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the supposed perceptions of most Americans - the guidelines on naming articles do not have common name as the only criterion. Other criteria such as precision and accuracy are to be considered too. More importantly, the use or mis-use of a common name should not be a reason to give inaccurate information or to confirm inaccurate information. Readin (talk) 15:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

That sounds good in theory but I'm having trouble imagining how it would look in practice. That is, I'm having trouble imagining how the article would do what you suggest while still fitting the mold of a well-behaved Wikipedia article. I'll have to reserve my opinion until I see some suggested text. Readin (talk) 14:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Readin. I have knocked together a mock-up at User:PalaceGuard008/Republic of China, with some comments on what I was trying to get across. Of course, I am limited by my own knowledge and views, so feel free to go ahead and edit it, or provide comments here, if you think it can be changed to an acceptable form. The aim of this exercise is not to establish the final wording, but to establish whether a "narrowly defined article" is feasible. If we can agree it is or is not feasiable, we can close this discussion and, if applicable, focus on getting the wording right separately. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:49, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I left a brief comment at User talk:PalaceGuard008/Republic of China. Readin (talk) 15:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Readin, I have made a small change. If others do not have any major objections, I will take off the NPOV tag and create the article - we can work out details of wording on that talk page. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Seeing as there are no outstanding objections since the last call three days ago, I take it there is consensus to move forward. Please feel free to comment at Talk:Republic of China once that article gets created. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:36, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I have created a new Republic of China. Many issues remain, including how to conceptualise the relationship between this article and the other existing articles, such as the ROC (1912-1949) article. A good suggestion was made in previous discussions that we emulate the approach used in French Fifth Republic (vs France) and Kingdom of the Netherlands (vs Netherlands) in dealing with the relationship bewteen Republic of China (vs Taiwan) (though the two situations are neither identical to each other nor to this situation). Please help improve the article, discussions can be conducted at Talk:Republic of China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

We don't need two articles, one on Taiwan, one on Republic of China as they refer to the same state. The last time someone proposed splitting the article was two months ago. The discussion is immediately above. The consensus was not to split. So you should not unilaterally do this, based on your own assertions in this thread, without gaining consensus for it through a similar RfC. Others have not opposed you because we have had discussions on this before, the last only two months ago.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 17:00, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

In PalaceGuard008's proposal, Taiwan covers the modern state (i.e. it's the country article for the state) and the history of Taiwan, which would not include the history of the ROC prior to its relocation, and Republic of China covers the history and government of the ROC as something that has existed since 1911. This is consistent with the decision in the closing statement in the move discussion. I interpret the split discussion above to have shown consensus against having distinct articles on the modern state and the place it governs, different from this proposal. Since there has been little objection to PalaceGiard008's proposal (and indeed, collaboration from someone who does not normally side with them), I think the burden lies on you to demonstrate that there is consensus against having an article that covers the government and history of the ROC. (Note: I have only been vaguely following the discussions and do not necessarily endorse the proposal, but I do think PalaceGuard008 was not wrong to create the article based on what had transpired.) wctaiwan (talk) 01:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

There is already an article, History of the Republic of China, which covers precisely that. And "History of the Republic of China" is a much better title for it for, as is clear from the #Split discussion immediately above and numerous other discussions, "Republic of China" is just the formal name for "Taiwan" (or "Taiwan" is the common name for the Republic of China). Having them as two separate articles, implying they are different things, is confusing and misleading.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:16, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The new article is obsessive, politicly motivated nonsense. Nobody involved in the governing of the Republic of China (meaning the real China) is involved in the government of Taiwan today. They are not the same organisation. Different country. Different people. It's only those pushing an extreme POV here who want it to exist. A bad article creation. Does not help anyone to understand what's really going on. It's about politics and obfuscation. HiLo48 (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Huh? The current President of the Republic of China is a Kuomintang member, the majority of the legislature are Kuomintang. What do yo mean "Nobody involved in the governing of the Republic of China (meaning the real China) is involved in the government of Taiwan today"? The Kuomintang of today is very much the same organization it was when it was first founded by Dr Sun Yat-sen. It's views and it's way of doing things are different, but the organization is very much the same. Just as surely as the Democratic Party of Woodrow Wilson and FDR is the same Democratic Party of Barack Obama. The people are different of course, people die, but the organization is the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.144.198 (talk) 17:56, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

What do I mean by "Nobody involved in the governing of the Republic of China (meaning the real China) is involved in the government of Taiwan today"? Are you serious? That's a really stupid question. HiLo48 (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Even though the original people have died, the institutions, the ways of thinking the attitudes, etc. have survived within government. This is true both formally and behaviorally. The ROC still claims to be the legitimate government of China. It still claims Taiwan is just a province. It still uses the same emblems of state as it used in China. The KMT still maintains control. Even when the presidency shifted to the DPP for a short time, the KMT still controlled the legislature and just as importantly it still controlled the institutional powers in the judicial yuan (and I assume in the examination yuan as well). The corruption brought from China still permeates the government. The ROC has changed over time, but it has a continuous existence stretching back a century even though a large fraction of that existence was in another country. There was never a clean break in which you could say "10 years ago, the ROC was so completely different that it cannot be said to be the same government that it was then". You might say that about the ROC today as compared to 100 years ago, but that can be said of pretty much any modern government. Readin (talk) 00:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, most are very different from what they were even 50 years ago. That's certainly true in this case. It would also be true for the US Wilson/FDR example mentioned above. And in this case we're not even talking about governing the same place. It really is an extreme political position to say it's the same body, deserving an article of its own. HiLo48 (talk) 00:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the extreme position is to claim that the ROC government ceased to exist when it left China and landed in Taiwan, and that the alien government that took over Taiwan was a brand new government that had never existed before and had suddenly appeared from nowhere (it certainly didn't appear from within Taiwan). We have articles on all kinds of things that have changed so much over time that they only vaguely resemble what they started as. Federal government of the United States is almost nothing like the one goverment that was started back in the 1700s, and only a small fraction of the current territory was part of the original state. The same is true of China. We even have an article called History of Freemasonry that includes history from way back to when it was very different from what it is today.

There is always the philosophical question of whether a ship that is replaced board-by-board over 50 years of repair until none of the original wood, rope, nails or anything else remain can still be called the same ship. However in the case of the ROC much of what was still remains even if the people and land have changed. Readin (talk) 01:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Another view is that that's an extreme ideological position of a handful (by global standards) of people clinging to a ridiculous and forlorn hope that a massive military loss of the distant past will somehow be reversed. None of your examples compare with this one where the place is completely different. HiLo48 (talk) 01:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that counts as "another view". It is rather one class of the same view. After all, where did these dilusional people get their ridiculous and forlorn hope? It was part of the institutional attitude of the ROC. Whether it was ridiculous and forlorn in 1945/1949, it is still the same hope that was brought from China to Taiwan by the ROC government. As time passed the hope gradually became more ridiculous and more forlorn. But it was still the hope of that government that brought it to Taiwan.

However I for one do not think your description is accurate. Few if any in the ROC still cling to that hope. Rather the hope gradually changed from one of re-conquest to one of merely re-uniting with "the motherland" even if it requires recognizing the PRC. In the minds of those KMT who still make up the core of the ROC, that "reunification" includes uniting Taiwan with China although I for one think a "reunification" would only re-unite the KMT with their homeland. For Taiwan it would be an annexation rather than a reunification (this may be where PalaceGuard and I differ). And where did the ROC get the idea that a unification with China would be a "re-unification" of Taiwan and China? It was part of the attitude of that ROC that established itself in Taiwan after leaving China.

I'm completely in agreement with you that the land of the ROC is no longer the same, but land is only one aspect of a government and not necessarily the most important aspect. Readin (talk) 04:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

But it would seem to be a unique aspect. Are there any other examples of what you would call a continuous government for whom the territory it ruled or rules changed completely? And your expression "In the minds of those KMT who still make up the core of the ROC..." is a bit tricky in its use of the word "still". No-one who was there in 1950 is still there. HiLo48 (talk) 04:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Lien Chan is one example of a mainland-born citizen of the ROC who was part of the ROC government on Taiwan, and there are many more notable individuals. These people aren't any more "Taiwanese" than they are "ROCians". Many people don't consider Lian Chan to be Taiwanese, after all, he is from Shaanxi Province, however he is not a "PRC citizen" either. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, as per Wikipedia's own articles (I encourage everybody who wants to weigh in on ROC and/or Taiwan articles to read them), Lien Chan's grandfather was born on Taiwan and moved to the Mainland as an adult and bore Lien's father and Lien's father also bore him on the Mainland. It's because of his ancestry that some consider Lien to be Taiwanese. There's so much misinformation going on here as well as misinterpretations. Let's stick with the facts. Taiwan is governed by the ROC Constitution and, not the Taiwan Constitution. Let's start from there.

An irrelevant example. He wasn't part of the government when it was in China, which was what my point was about. He has lived in Taiwan for more than 80% of his life. He won't be going back to China in the foreseeable future. The place he lives and has lived in for over 60 years is commonly known as Taiwan. He is Taiwanese. HiLo48 (talk) 05:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

You asked why key people in the KMT were hell-bent on following a delusion that one day the ROC will retake the mainland, or whatever it was. I gave an example of a type of person who would follow such a delusion, and why they would follow such a delusion. In their minds, they are the governing people of the ROC, based on the land which they were born on. People such as Wu Po-hsiung, James Soong, Lien Chan, these people all believe that they are of the same KMT that was on the mainland. These people were not in power on the mainland, but nevertheless they share the mindset, the psyche, that their home is the Chinese mainland. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, not only is the "delusional mindset" present in the current-ruling KMT government of the ROC, but it is also well known to be well fixated within the higher ranks ROC military, many of whom are closely tied to the KMT. Lee Jye, Tang Fei and Hau Pei-tsun were all bigwigs in the ROC military that came from the mainland. In fact, there are practically no modern-day ROC generals that have specifically publicly displayed pro-Taiwan (as opposed to ROC) sentiments. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:51, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I didn't really ask that, but thanks anyway for the clarification that while it's a "government", their view really is a fringe one. HiLo48 (talk) 07:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

How can it be a fringe mindset when the President of the ROC is Kuomintang and the legislature is majority KMT? These are elected officials by the citizens of the ROC. That is a fact that unanimously disproves your assertions that it's a fringe mindset. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.142 (talk) 17:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

While the the view may be fringe, the reason the view exists is real. The view is that ROC is still the legitimate government of China. The reason some people hold that view is because the ROC government in Taiwan is the continuation of the ROC government that was in China and that government has certain institutional beliefs. (Although the view may be fringe it is notable due to the high-ranking people who hold it. But that's not the issue here. Their view is described in quite a few articles). Readin (talk) 12:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

"But it would seem to be a unique aspect. Are there any other examples of what you would call a continuous government for whom the territory it ruled or rules changed completely?" So far as I know the ROC is unique in this respect (at least for non-nomadic long-serving governments with real authority). But its uniqueness does not mean it doesn't exist. It simply makes it hard to fit into the mold that we use for most other governments. In most cases the article about the state and the article about the country are one and the same because the state has never been anything but the governing apparatus for the country. However with the ROC and Taiwan we have a state that used to be the governing apparatus for a different country. It's unique and calls for a unique solution - a separate article that discusses the history of the ROC as one continuous entity that ruled two separate countries, which it is (some may argue that Taiwan and China are not two separate countries but I think you and I at least agree that they are). Readin (talk) 05:40, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I have problems with using the word state to describe something that encompasses two entirely separate places. In my mind and, I'm sure, in the minds of many others, state has irrevocable connections with a single chunk of land. HiLo48 (talk) 07:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm perfectly happy to use the word "goverment" rather than "state" to refer to the ROC. Readin (talk) 12:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

The only consistent thing about HiLo48 is his use of derogatory language and personal attacks. I say we stop feeding the troll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.141 (talk) 15:38, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

HiLo48 is projecting an attitude that rubs me the wrong way, but at least on this page I don't think it rises to the level of "consistent" "derogatory language and personal attacks" nor is he simply being a "troll". Readin (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Readin - the word "government" would definitely be better than "state". (I will ignore the attack. I'm used to people trying to silence me because my views don't conform with the local mainstream ones.) HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Change to first paragraph

I reverted this change to the first paragraph but was reverted, so here goes. I strongly object to the change because it places an undue focus on the naming issue and mischaracterises the scope of the article. The article is an overview of Taiwan--the history (though I understand some editors want some pre-1949 ROC history added), the geography, the politics, the culture, not the naming issue or the evolution of the territory controlled by the ROC. I recommend that the old version be reinstated as soon as possible, unless there is clear consensus that the new one is preferred.

For some perspective, the version prior to the change had been stable for some time, and it was the result of prolonged debate and revision among people with different perspectives, engineered to the point where I think it was fairly simple and (perhaps grudgingly) accepted by most editors at this page. I'd hate for the whole thing to subject to rapid back-and-forths again. The introductory paragraph to a controversial article is not a place for being bold. Please discuss changes and gain consensus first. wctaiwan (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I think resolution of the discussions in the thread above should obviate any need for changes to the current lead paragraph, so would also urge editors to hold your guns and see if we can come up with a satisafactory solution in that discussion. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I feel strongly enough about this that I think the previous version should be reinstated in the meantime. I hope that others would agree. wctaiwan (talk) 14:08, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I have reinstated the earlier lead section. Most significantly, Taiwan is not just a name for the ROC. It is in fact a name independent of the ROC, as it also attaches to the island itself. Indeed there are some people that do not recognise the ROC because of its claim to China but still see Taiwan as an independent nation. Will's changes were therefore misleading. John Smith's (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Also, inside the ROC, there is a Taiwan Province; there are areas under the control of the ROC that are outside Taiwan Province, like Fujian Province and the special municipalities. So equating Taiwan with ROC will make it more confusing ("Taiwan Province" as a sub-part of "Taiwan"?). --50.193.52.113 (talk) 21:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Our first sentence says that Taiwan is the Republic of China. Our second sentence says the Republic of China, that is Taiwan, was originally based in mainland China. I.e. we're saying that Taiwan was originally based in mainland China. I think we should clarify that it is the government that was originally based in mainland China. How about:

Taiwan (/ˈtaɪˈwɑːn/ TY-WAHN Chinese: 臺灣 or 台灣; pinyin: Táiwān; see below), officially the Republic of China (ROC; Chinese: 中華民國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Mínguó), is a state in East Asia. The government, originally based in mainland China with no control over the island of Taiwan (formerly known as "Formosa"), now governs the island which makes up over 99% of its territory, as well as Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu, and other minor islands.

Readin (talk) 02:54, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I like using "the government" as the subject of the second sentence, but I would drop "with no control over the island of Taiwan" as it's 1. (in my opinion) not important enough for the first paragraph and 2. somewhat confusing to a reader unfamiliar with the relevant history, since it raises the question of how ROC went from controlling only mainland China to controlling only Taiwan without answering it. Either way, I don't feel strongly about this since it doesn't change how the scope of the article is described, which was my main issue with Will74205's edits. wctaiwan (talk) 03:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I think leaving out the "with no control over the island of Taiwan" would be misleading since it would be assumed that the government originally controlled both mainland China and Taiwan. I would rather leave readers with a question than with mis-information. However I do think the "with no control over the island of Taiwan" is a bit long and distracting and was reluctant to include it. But I felt I had to in order to avoid giving the wrong impression. I considered simply saying that the government originally "controlled" mainland China rather saying it was "based in" mainland China, however the chaotic nature of the 1912-1949 time-period makes me doubt that such a re-wording would be accurate. Readin (talk) 06:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't make the statement any less redundant. It's poor writing, because at that moment we are talking about the origin of the RoC government, not about what the RoC initially did not have. If you want to add it, fine, there are other way more proper places to stick that info in, but this is not where you put it in, because again, this article in essence is talking about the political entity of RoC, not the geographical territories of Taiwan. You stick it in as you continue to summarise and introduce the RoC to the reader, that's how to properly write an article, but if you stick it in here, it's extremely poor form. The second paragraph is the best place to do this, as it summarises the history of the RoC (second paragraph needs to be split, as it concurrently talks about two topics). English 101, you focus on one topic in one paragraph, and sentences should be blunt, clear, and concise. You add too much stuff to one sentence, it becomes jumbled and it leads to confusion. You talk about too many things in one paragraph, you start straying off topic. Under this format, it should be this:

First Paragraph = Introduction and outline of the RoC.

Second Paragraph = Brief summary of the history of the RoC.

Third Paragraph = Brief summary of the history of Taiwan (somewhat grayish with this, imo this section should belong in the geography article, as it does not directly pertain to the RoC itself. But if you start it off with 'The islands of Taiwan and Penghu etc etc' it should be okay as a third paragraph)

And personally, I don't think it should be 'initially originated in Mainland China', it should read 'formerly controlling all of Mainland China'. The second part of the sentence describes what the RoC currently controls, it's only logical to make the first sentence describing what the RoC formerly controlled as to make a direct comparison. The alternative is to leave that bit out completely and only talk about the RoC's current territories. Describe the historical territorial administration in the second paragraph. 204.126.132.241 (talk) 15:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

This is how I would rewrite the first two paragraphs:

Taiwan (/ˈtaɪˈwɑːn/ TY-WAHN Chinese: 臺灣 or 台灣; pinyin: Táiwān; see below), officially the Republic of China (ROC; Chinese: 中華民國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Mínguó), is a state in East Asia. The Republic of China governs the island of Taiwan (formerly known as "Formosa"), which makes up over 99% of its territory, as well as Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu, and other minor islands. Neighboring states include the People's Republic of China to the west, Japan to the east and northeast, and the Philippines to the south. Taipei is the political capital as well as economic and cultural centre of the Republic of China. New Taipei is the most populous city.

The Republic of China was established in mainland China in 1912 with its Capital in Peking (Beijing). However, the Republic of China quickly fell into a state of Warlordism, with the Kuomintang party establishing their capital in Nanking (Nanjing). It was not until the Northern Expedition lead by Chiang Kai-shek that China was re-unified under Kuomintang control in 1928. During the Chinese civil war, the Communist Party of China founded the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1949 and subsequently took over the rest of Mainland China. The ROC relocated its government to Taiwan towards the end of the year, and its jurisdiction eventually became limited to Taiwan and its surrounding islands. In 1971, the PRC assumed China's seat at the United Nations, of which the ROC originally occupied. International recognition of the ROC has gradually eroded as most countries switched recognition to the PRC. Only 11 UN member states and the Holy See currently maintain formal diplomatic relations with the ROC, though it has informal ties with most other states via its representative offices.

The island of Taiwan was mainly inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines until the Dutch period in the 17th century when ethnic Chinese began immigrating to the island. The Qing Dynasty of China later conquered Taiwan in 1683. By the time Taiwan was ceded to Japan in 1895, the majority of Taiwan's inhabitants were Han Chinese either by ancestry or by assimilation. At the end of World War II in 1945, Japan surrendered Taiwan to ROC military forces on behalf of the Allies. Since then, Taiwan has remained under the control of the Republic of China.

This is how I would rewrite the first two paragraphs. First summarises the Republic of China. Second overviews its history. And Third talks about history of the islands of Taiwan. 204.126.132.241 (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The Communist Party was founded before the Civil War. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 21:20, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I think your proposed text is good. I do have a couple comments about the reasoning behind it though. First, I disagree with your statement that "this article in essence is talking about the political entity of RoC, not the geographical territories of Taiwan". The difficulty we have is that articles about nation-states talk about both - the nation and the state. This article is attempting to do that. The arbitration decision that we could create a separate "Republic of China" article narrowly focussed on the government underscores the fact that this article isn't supposed to be only about the political entity or even primarily about the political entity. The nation is as much a part of the nation-state as the state is. What's tricky about this particular instance is the unusual origin in which that the state didn't start within the nation. My second comment is that I'm not sure how accurate it is to say "formerly controlling all of Mainland China". Did Chiang-Kai-shek actually unify the whole thing? Weren't their areas still under foreign control? Readin (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Government != political entity. Government forms one of the basis of a political entity, but is not the entire definition. The current RoC regime as we know it is actually the third of a series of regime changes (Military Government, Political Tutelage, Consitutional). Anyways, regardless, if you reread my proposed text, I had that 3rd paragraph describing the history of Taiwan island for a reason. Instead of splitting hairs, it would be better to just write about both as a whole, however it should also be important to maintain that the two are different (state vs geographical territory). As regarding your second comment, I felt the same, which is why I left it out the mainland part entirely, since it was again, somewhat uneccessary, as the paragraph is describing the RoC as it is now, rather than then, which would be described in the second paragraph. As for Chiang Kai-shek unifying the whole of China, it is generally regarded as so in the sense that all the Warlords were defeated and assimilated under the control of the Central Government. 204.126.132.241 (talk) 23:27, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

My original intention was to clarify that "Taiwan" is a place and the "Republic of China" is its government. So, this is my second try at the first sentence, taking feedback from above:

Taiwan (/ˈtaɪˈwɑːn/ TY-WAHN Chinese: 臺灣 or 台灣; pinyin: Táiwān; see below) is the largest territory governed by the Republic of China (ROC; Chinese: 中華民國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Mínguó), a state in East Asia. The Republic of China was originally found and based in mainland China, but now governs the island of Taiwan (formerly known as "Formosa"), which makes up over 99% of its present territory, as well as Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu, and other minor islands.

--Will74205 (talk) 07:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, I would say that to be precise, "Taiwan" is the common name for the part of the Republic of China (state) which it actually controls, i.e. the "Free Area" under ROC constitutional law, versus the notional remainder of the Republic of China (state) which it does not control. There is a relevant distinction that can be drawn between the Republic of China (state, largely unrecognised) and Republic of China government (recognised as one even by the PRC, but not necessarily under that name). However, all of these fine distinctions are probably not suitable to be included in the lead of the article without disturbing the original Administrators' decision, which clearly decided to take the broad brush stroke approach of declaring "Taiwan = ROC" for the purpose of describing the polity as it exists today (and leaving the distinction to be drawn in terms of the history and government only). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I still like the proposed text. Does anyone have a problem with it? Readin (talk) 15:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Support the current or Readin's edition, in contemporary usage, when Taiwan is more widely used than ROC in political, governmental and diplomatic situation. And in most of them the term "Taiwan" also covers Penghu Kinmen and Matsu. Like the term "Hong Kong" is not only an island in the above situations today, but also includes Kowloon and New territory.68.181.3.103 (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

No, that makes no sense. Both 'Taiwan' and the 'Republic of China' are names for the state. There are many ways of saying this, but as it is in the first sentence is I think fine. It makes no sense to say one governs the other. The Government of Taiwan, governs Taiwan/the ROC, as is mentioned further down.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:06, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Taiwan is the place, the state is called Republic of China; that's enshrined in their Constitution. It's the same as America being the place, but the name of the state is the United States of America; that's enshrined in their Constitution. The informal names are not equal to their latter, official names. Greece does not govern the Hellenic Republic, the Hellenic Republic governs the place called Greece. Wales doesn't govern the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom governs a place called Wales (and Scotland, England and Northern Ireland). Ecetera.

Are you then suggesting we rename Greece to Hellenic Republic? Also, yes, they are called the Republic of China, but that doesn't change that the common, if not official, short-form name is Taiwan. That is undisputed. --Golbez (talk) 22:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

It is a common name, but it is not, as JohnBlackburne suggests, interchangeable with Republic of China. Republic of China is more than the island of Taiwan, it also includes Kinmen and Matsu. The Kinmenese would certainly take issue with Taiwan being interchangeable with Republic of China; they certainly do not consider themselves ruled by the Taiwanese. Just as the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish would likely take issue with United Kingdom being interchangeable with England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 22:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

"Malta" consists of more than the island of Malta; "Cyprus" consists of more than the island of Cyprus; "Ireland" only consists of part of the island of Ireland. Somehow, the people on those other small islands, or on the part of Ireland not part of the country named Ireland, have no problem with those names. So I'm going to have to say [citation needed] to the people of the other islands not understanding or accepting "Taiwan" as the short-form name for their country. --Golbez (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Here's the article on the Kinmenese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinmen

To 159.53.78.141 - According to Wikipedia's policy on common names, Taiwan and Republic of China ARE completely interchangeable. In fact, Taiwan is preferred. For the whole country. Sorry. It's the reality you face if you want coverage in a truly global, English language encyclopaedia. HiLo48 (talk) 22:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

For article titles, you are correct. JohnBlackburne is talking about the article text which is a different story.

Hatnotes

I have reverted edits to put back the disambiguating hatnotes relating to "Republic of China". "Republic of China" no longer redirects here, so it is inappropriate to say "for other uses of Republic of China..." here. The other hatnote to distinguish People's Republic of China is also no longer useful, as I am quite certain that nobody would type "Taiwan" into the Wikipedia search box when they were actually looking for the People's Republic of China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Republic of China directs here for me. What am I missing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.143 (talk) 16:55, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

"Kinmenese" as a demonym in the infobox

This was added last night and repeatedly replaced despite my and GotR's reverting it. The demonym in the country infobox isn't used in a general context--it's to describe the people of a country. In this context, "Kinmenese" is not in the same class as "Taiwanese" or "Chinese", either of which may describe Taiwanese people / ROC citizens depending on your POV. I do not dispute that people of Kinmen may not consider themselves to be Taiwanese, but those who don't would consider themselves to be Chinese. In this light, "Kinmenese" is much more like "New Yorker" than it is like either of the other two in that field. wctaiwan (talk) 05:05, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. HiLo48 (talk) 05:09, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Taiwanese is no more of a National identity than Kinmenese. In order for Taiwanese to be national, wouldn't the Kinmenese have to agree with being Taiwanese as well? There are even people on the main island of Taiwan who reject the "Taiwanese" identity. The Taiwanese often complain that the Chinese deny their right to self identify. Why do the Taiwanese deny the Kinmenese right to self identify? The Kinmenese reject the Taiwanese identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 15:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

(ec x2) They don't have to accept the Taiwanese identity. They might be referred to as Chinese or (mistakenly, as you might say) Taiwanese when people talk about people of the ROC, but Kinmenese is not a demonym for people of the ROC in the sense Taiwanese and Chinese are. wctaiwan (talk) 15:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Kinmenese is as much as a demonym for the Chinese on Kinmen as Taiwanese is a demonym for the Chinese on Taiwan. Taiwanese is no less regional than Kinmenese. Kinmenese should not be marginalized, it's not representing the facts. The people of Matsu don't consider themselves Taiwanese, neither do the people on Penghu. Only the people on the island of Taiwan consider themselves Taiwanese.

The common name of this article is "Taiwan," however, this article is really about the Republic of China and Kinmen is a part of the Republic of China; this is not an article solely about "Taiwan" and the "Taiwanese". Everybody in the ROC should be represented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 15:07, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Like it or not, "Taiwanese" is frequently used to refer to the people of the state commonly known, in modern days, as Taiwan, especially in English-language sources. wctaiwan (talk) 15:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia should be educating it's readers on all topics relating to it's articles, not just the ones based on popular sources, Wikipedia risks propagating propaganda in that case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 15:19, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

If you folks don't stop edit warring about this "Kinmenese" bit, it will be protected on the wrong version. --Golbez (talk) 15:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

For people to say that "Kinmenese" is not a valid national identity within the ROC is as much of a POV as it is for people to say that "Taiwanese" is not a valid national identity within the ROC, and there are 1.3 billion people who think that "Taiwanese" is not a national identity at all. JohnBlackburne says that "Kimenese" isn't accepted as a valid demonym in the ROC; this article itself shows that not everyone on the island of Taiwan believes that "Taiwanese" is a valid national identity. To accept "Taiwanese" as a valid identity and not "Kinmenese" when the people on Kinmen identify as such, is POV. This is no longer an NPOV article: not every voice in the Republic of China is represented. And this article is supposed to be about the Republic of China.

Addendum: Note (d) says: "Although the territories controlled by the ROC imply that the demonym is "Taiwanese", some consider that it is "Chinese" due to the claims of the ROC over all of China. Taiwanese people have various opinions regarding their own national identity." Can we at least have the same note for the Kinmenese? They don't consider themselves "Taiwanese" anymore than the Taiwanese consider themselves "Chinese."