Talk:Spani family

Deletion of the cited additions of others

Unresolved

@ZjarriRrethues: You removed cited information about the ethnicity of members of Spani family.

Sources:

• Šufflay, Milan (1925), Srbi i Arbanasi : (njihova simbioza u srednjem vijeku) (in Serbian), Belgrade, OCLC 440847167, retrieved 20 January 2012, Obitelj ova Span, de Span, Hi* spanus, Spanović podrijetlom je grčka" {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
• Glas, Volume 338 (in Serbian). Serbian Academy of Science and Arts. 1983. p. 72. Retrieved 20 January 2012. Петар Спан, господар краја између Скадра и Дриваста, чији су се преци, пореклом Грци,
• Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2001), Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), München: R. Oldenbourg Verlag GmbH München, p. 128, ISBN 3-486-56569--9, Stefano Span (griechischer Herkunft; im 15 Jahrhundert Drivastiner patrizier) {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)

You explained your removal by writing in edit line: please don't make POV/OR deductions, I've already added that below. I am afraid that what you wrote is not true. The only removed information you added to the body of the article was the information about the meaning of the family name (beardles), but you did not add below the removed information about the ethnicity of Spani. Was this a mistake? In case this was not a mistake please explain your point. Let me remind you that what you did can be seen as a form of tendentious editing: removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption and you are already warned not to engage in further: "ethno-nationalist tendentious editing--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The issue, which you analyzed in one word has been dealt with and explained by the use of modern sources in a complete section and without deductions that make little common sense. Btw misquoting and misattributing 1+ year old discussions is something that you have done before and you were warned by an admin about it when I was reviewing Gaius's GAN. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

1. Will you present the text from the "complete section" you mention which contains information about the Greek ethnicity of the Spani family?
2. Will you present the diff with administrator warning me for misquoting and misattributing 1+ year old discussions when you were reviewing Gaius's GAN?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

[1] and btw your somewhat modern sources don't mention the family but two members. Of course if you read the members section, there is a whole section about the legendary claims to imperial Byzantine origins from some members.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

You did not answer my questions. Please answer my questions.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:58, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I replied on your talkpage too, so I can't/won't contribute anything else to this OR discussion i.e please stick to the modern and complete sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:19, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

You did write a message on my talk page, but you did not answer my questions.

In the meantime you continued with disruptive tendentious editing and removal cited addition about the Greek origin of the Spani family either directly or by misusing of the page moving.

Wikipedia:Moving a page guide explains how to move a page. You did not follow it.

• This was text of Peter Spani article before you moved it.
• This is the text you moved into article Peter Spani (League of Lezhë).

You misused moving of the page to delete cited addition of other users which can be seen as Wikipedia:Tendentious editing by someone who does not AGF.

You removed the cited information about Greek origin of Spani family with this edit under false excuse that you added removed text about the Greek origin of the Spani family into the body of the article, which is not true. Although I reminded you that what you did can be seen as a form of tendentious editing because removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption and that you are already warned not to engage in further: "ethno-nationalist tendentious editing you continued with the same behaviour, falsely accused me, ignored my questions, misused moving of the page to delete my cited addition and refuse to discuss your edits.

You removed the same cited addition in other articles like here under false excuse that you explained that removal on the Talk:Spani family which you did not.

1. Please stop your disruptive tendentious editing and follow wikipedia rules.
2. Please answer my above two questions--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:46, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

It's been almost 9 months and I hadn't noticed that you had this piece back. The version as it was written was much more precise as it applied to just a few members, whose "imperial" claims of ancestry were disputed and vague.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:29, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Skanderbeg and other chieftains from the region of Albania were Alfonso's vassals

Resolved

There is scientific consensus (which includes Albanian nationalistic sources) that Skanderbeg became vassal after signing the Treaty of Gaeta. When other chieftains from the region of Albania signed similar treaties they also became vassals of Kingdom of Naples:

• Setton, Kenneth (1976—1984), The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, pp. 102, 103, ISBN 978-0-87169-114-9, Scanderbeg now entered into special close relations with King Alphoso of Naples....on 26 March 1451. They got along very well together, as lord and vassal...Besides Alphonso's assertion of suzerainty over Skanderbeg and the latters father in law George Arianiti Topia Golem Cominović,... Alphonso gave recognition as vassals to Ducagjini family, to Simon Zenevisi, ... {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)CS1 maint: year (link)

• Seen from another perspective, one could say that Scanderbeg was drawn into a power struggle between Venice and Naples over rule in the Adriatic. For centuries, the Albanian coast had been the theatre of such struggles for hegemony. Castriota was unable to extract himself from the demands of regional geopolitics. He had originally turned to Naples for support and in 1451 had sworn an oath of allegiance. This provided him with protection and support from King Alfonso V, but it made his forces party to the war against the Republic of San Marco. Like his feudal liege, he fought on two fronts, against the Ottomans and against the Signoria. His realm was no more than a link in a broadly spanned chain of Neapolitan vassals in the Balkans against which Venice had spun a net of regional princes in its pay. As such, the Balkans were the theatre of inner-Italian warfare to which Scanderbeg would eventually fall victim and perish. Castriota’s star declined definitively in 1467 when the Venetians expelled the Neapolitans from central Albania. His hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples, was the reason for his downfall.

  — “Skanderbeg: der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan” by Oliver Jens Schmitt

• Robert Elsie, In 1458, Scanderbeg was summoned to Italy to fulfil his obligations as vassal under the treaty of Gaeta. - Historical dictionary of Albania
• It was to Alfonso Aragona of Naples that Scanderbeg turned for military and financial support in 1450. In virtue of a treaty signed with that king the following year, he became a Neapolitan vassal and
• Norman Housley, by the Treaty of Gaeta, Scanderbeg became the vassal of Alfonso of Naples
• Skanderbeg in 1451 made an alliance with King Alfonso I of Naples (Alfonso V of Aragon), whose vassal he became, and a permanent Neapolitan garrison was installed in his fortress
• Alfonso decided to take Scanderbeg under his protection as vassal in 1451
• Iskender, as the loyal vassal of Ferdinand, went to aid him against the rebels
• Alfonso of Aragon, to whom the Albanian hero had become a vassal in 1451 - Arshi Pipa, Sami Repishti
• Skenderbeg felt encouraged to press for a firmer commitment, and in a treaty signed at Gaeta on 16 March 145 1 he pledged vassalage - Ramadan Marmullaku

....

Therefore, based on the above presented sources, I will return information about vassalage to Naples, removed by Aigest.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Latest edits

Are non-consensual and oversimplified. Specialized sources state things more clearly Aigest (talk) 21:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Several sources are presented to support the Greek origin assertion. One of the sources I provided is written by the most specialized author for this topic (Schmitt) who confirmed the Greek origin assertion. Removal of cited addition of other editors is disruptive especially with false excuses. There are no "specialized sources" which contradict this assertion. Please revert yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Stavrides explains the "legitimacy claims" in a very detailed manner, unlike century old sources that have been reused by Schmitt and a Serbian source, of which (during a whole year of reverting) you still haven't provided the basic source details like the title of the paper and its author.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 00:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

No. This is not about "legitimacy claims" but about ethnic origin of this family. It is not disputed by Stavrides and his text about Alessio Span. On the contrary. Therefore Shufflay and Schmitt are enough to support the Greek origin assertion. Here is another source which supports the Greek origin assertion:

• Bulletin Scientifique: Sciences humaines, vol. 16–17, Le Conseil, 1980, p. 109, The Span are a family of Greek origin {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |editorn=, |laydate=, |editorn-last=, |coauthors=, |separator=, |laysummary=, |editorn-link=, |nopp=, |trans_title=, |month=, |editorn-first=, |doi_inactivedate=, |chapterurl=, |author-separator=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); Unknown parameter |firstn= ignored (help)

@Aigest, please revert yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The above text is also published in one work published on Serbian language.

• Božić, Ivan (1980) [1976], "Спани - Шпање", Glas (in Serbian), Belgrade: Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, p. 37, OCLC 183333221, СПАНИ — ШПАЊЕ Приказано на V скупу Одељења историјских наука 15. септембра 1976) Спани су били разграната породица грчког порекла, ко}а ]е у XV веку имала извесну улогу у друштвеном и политичном животу северне Албаније {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |nopp=, |trans_title=, |doi_inactivedate=, |laysummary=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)

Its author is Ivan Božić (historian) a Yugoslavian historian and member of the Serbian Academy of Science and Arts. He was an expert in history of medieval Zeta and the Venetian Republic's policy toward its coastal areas.

Fazit: the Greek origin assertion of Spani family is supported with multiple reliable sources. I provided requested details, i.e. author and the title of the text published in Glas (written by professional historian specialized in the subject). Taking that in consideration the Greek origin assertion should be restored. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Provide full citation from Ivan Bozic and the reference he is using. I suspect the source is Milan Sufflay and you are using him three times, making it look like there are numerous sources while in fact there is only Milan Sufflay. You are POV pushing based on only one source. The text will be reverted accordingly Aigest (talk) 08:40, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The full citation of work written by Ivan Bozic was already provided with this edit which you reverted. Please find below the version with translated quote:

• Božić, Ivan (1980) [1976], "Спани - Шпање", Glas (in Serbian), Belgrade: Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, p. 37, OCLC 183333221, СПАНИ — ШПАЊЕ Приказано на V скупу Одељења историјских наука 15. септембра 1976) Спани су били разграната породица грчког порекла, ко}а ]е у XV веку имала извесну улогу у друштвеном и политичном животу северне Албаније [Spani - Španje; (Presented on V meeting of the Department of historical sciences on 15 September 1976) Spani was dispersed family of greek origin which had certain role in political and social life of northern Albania in 15th century] {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |nopp=, |trans_title=, |doi_inactivedate=, |laysummary=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)

Below are details of another text written by Ivan Božić who confirmed the Greek origin assertion in his later (1983) work:

• Božić, Ivan (1983), "Албанија и Арбанаси у XIII XIV и XV веку", Glas (in Serbian), vol. 338, Belgrade: Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, p. 72, ...је и Петар Спан, господар краја између Скадра и Дриваста, чији су се преци, пореклом Грци, доселили у Албанију у првој половини XIV века; он је после првог освајања Србије дошао са српским деспотом Ђурђем у Дубровник и... {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |nopp=, |trans_title=, |doi_inactivedate=, |laysummary=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)

Please revert yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

(unindent)Despite using many unused parametres even on the talkpage, you still haven't provided Bozic's original reference.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

No need. Božić did not attribute this assertion but stated it as accepted by him.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Please stick to the consensus against your edits. You can't expect to reintroduce them every time you think that the users who opposed you are inactive.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC)