User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Swiss/Nepal/Vatican flag icons aligned after 6.5 years

This is just FYI as done. Well, after weeks of further discussions, I think the "consensus" is the new height of x16px for the Swiss/Vatican flag icons and x17px for Nepal's icon.

• Current default sizes: (17–16–16–15–15px height)

Those icon heights, of x17px and x16px, allow all major nation/territory flags to be displayed within text lines, or wikitables, with precise, professional alignment. The size of the Swiss flag icon (in 27,000+ pages) had become the poster child of "delayed improvements" where the problem appeared by early 2007, was partially bypassed 5 years ago by Template:CHE size x17px, plus suggested for resizing in 2011, then re-suggested in May 2013, and finally fixed 6.5 years later (on 19 June 2013, but also fixing the Nepal and Vatican icon heights). This fixes the flag-icon alignment in all sports and Olympic articles. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but is this kind of content really germane to Jimbo's talk page? I mean, with all due respect to the great man, he isn't our technical GodKing. — This, that and the other (talk) 10:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Jimbo's advice, as both a computer programmer and a manager ...has provided remarkable improvements. When the wp:CS1 cite templates were slowing articles to edit-preview in 25-45 seconds (or reformat image sizes), you might recall I created a fix-it Template:Fcite (July 2012) as a desperate quick solution which some people wanted to delete because, even though 6x faster, it omitted some major parameters. Others were certain the path was to re-hammer/force {cite_web} to miraculously run faster, like a covered wagon upgraded to sportscar (by 300 more horses?), or perhaps as Francis Bacon "stuffing a chicken with snow" to preserve it? Instead, Jimbo advised to keep {Fcite}, use "sparingly" and treat it as a "experiment" (recall: dif631) for better solutions, so I worked on that experimentation path (rather than desperate fixes) for a few weeks and created Template:Cite_quick which handled all 45 major cite parameters, and allowed article "Barack Obama" to display all navboxes and reformat 2x faster just before(!) the 2012 U.S. Presidential Election. Plus get this: {Cite_quick} still ran 5x faster than {cite_web} then and even handles more cites than the gargantuan, complex Lua script version with Module:Citation/CS1. In fact, when the Lua programmer User:Uncle_G went on 3-month wikibreaks, I finished rewriting the Lua-based version to match the wp:CS1 format of {cite_web} and {cite_book}, based on knowledge I had gained by Jimbo's advice to "experiment" and that is why the Lua-based cite templates were ready for use in early March this year (rather than a year later), because I had made hundreds of crucial corrections in the Lua module based on Jimbo's advice to treat {Fcite} as an experimental step. Well, the Lua-based cites made major articles reformat 3x-4x times faster (often within 7 seconds, not 25) and auto-corrected 15,000 typos, as of April 2013 (when 10,055 more users edited articles than expected), and it was Jimbo's support (recall: dif473 and other people's work) that made fast edits possible in early 2013. However, few of those extra ten thousand active editors (or 100,000 others) knew Jimbo's pivotal role in making their editing run 3x faster in April 2013. Why else experiment with 230 cite parameters? The key issue is advice about technology. So, answer the question now: "Is this kind of content really germane to Jimbo's talk page?". -Wikid77 15:05/16:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Personally I like reading Wikid77's updates. The hard work that he and others are doing is very much appreciated by us non-technical editors. I'm sure Jimbo doesn't mind being kept informed. Prioryman (talk) 19:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree with Prioryman and Wikid. Seems to me User talk:This, that and the other is being a bit of a troll in this instance. It's still Jimbo's personal talk page and not a policy talk page or village pump, this is the type of discussion that Jimbo has decided he likes having on his page, then that is his decision not even consensus of the Community can decide what someone can/cannot have on their talk page as long as it does not violate our policies.Camelbinky (talk) 20:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a troll; I made the comment because I genuinely believed that no-one had any interest in these posts. But I can see now that that's obviously not true. Even so, I would be interested to know whether Jimbo is actually interested in them, since this is his talk page after all. — This, that and the other (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm keenly interested. I don't always respond but I always read. And as Albacore says, below, it's a nice break from all the bickering! :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, there you go. I've been proved wrong, and I think that's a good thing in this case. Nice to hear from you, Jimbo! — This, that and the other (talk) 07:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I enjoy reading the updates as well. It's nice to hear about the improvements we're doing on WP, and it's a nice break from all the bickering. Albacore (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Focus on fixing most irritating computer problems: What I try to emphasize, in computer technology, is to fix the problems which cause "98%" of frustration. This is like a variation of the "80/20 Rule" but as "98/2" where ~2% of computer problems cause 98% of all the I-hate-computers trouble. The amazing thing I discovered, by writing my own graphics or text-editing software for years, was that when I was able to upgrade the software myself to improve any problems (with no other "developers" to confront), then the software became "98% perfect" or "98% paradise" despite numerous people claiming that computers would always be frustrating. Not so; instead, people need to be able to tailor the computer interface to their own habits, quickly, to reduce many frustrations instantly. Just a few problems are the cause of 98% of frustrations. The 3 oversized flag icons were 3 out of 350, and caused the misalignment in many hundreds of articles, but now all that frustration is gone, by fixing 3 flag-icon sizes. I wish we could get people to focus on fixing the most-frustrating problems sooner, such as edit-conflicts, rather than all the bizarre "side-show" trinkets or widgets they seem to obsess over. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Collaboration and cooperation rather than frustration: Wider, faster cooperation is a big advantage in wiki editing, as seen by "99.9999% of Wikipedia was written by other people" without requesting much approval for cooperation. Although some minor user-interface glitches can be frustrating, such as buttons at bottom-of-screen rather than being mid-screen buttons, the blocks against cooperation can also be frustrating. In a sense, edit-conflicts which should be auto-corrected are blocking the automatic cooperation to work with other users, on the same paragraphs, without defining a "coordination plan" to schedule when users can edit which sections. If edit-conflicts were simply reduced to allow multi-user edits to adjacent lines, then that would mean better "automatic" cooperation between users. Now, in a broader sense, the MediaWiki software should empower users to gain better cooperation in wider updating of pages, plus the templates and tools. The quick aspect of "wiki" editing is due to bypassing approval cycles, such as in other systems which require pages to be "checked-out" for exclusive editing and then "checked-in" for verification, before allowing edits by other users. Instead, the wiki editing can allow instant cooperation of people editing different paragraphs, and if fixed, to allow editing of adjacent lines. The key concept is to reduce the levels of "pre-approval" or "conflict-awareness" so that the software facilitates easier cooperation between multiple users, editing adjacent lines or updating shared flag-icon templates with easier, automatic approval, rather than so much "discussion to gain collaboration". Bottom line: another major cause of frustration is the software blocking the cooperation possible in updating pages and tools. So we could also emphasize people to create a wider variety of edit-tools, or graphing-tools, without waiting for approval of others to write or update the tools. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

• Alternatives with easier approval steps: Given the risk of how many major templates must be protected, from hack-edits which could garble thousands of pages, then a possible avenue for advancement would be to encourage a "few" alternative templates (or computer tools or widgets or article micro-pages) with limited use, and also limited approval cycles, to allow quicker improvements (without as much edit-protected control). In a sense, for the Swiss flag-icon alignment, then the alternative template was Template:CHE, which had icon height x17px over 4 years ago, when {flag|Switzerland} was stuck in a set of 5 templates which needed to be updated together to reduce the x20px height. So, the general tactic should be formalized to have alternative, "lifeboat" templates (tools) which can provide for rapid fixes, or improvements, without the tedious approval cycles of the big templates used in thousands (or millions) of pages. In this vein, I really think there should be a separate edit-interface for the MSIE browsers which have locked-up after years of incompatible edit-screen changes. I guess the now-deleted skin "Nostalgia" might have been part of that alternative interface for the MSIE browsers, but again, there should be more alternatives to emphasize workarounds in each area of frustration. -Wikid77 00:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps the term "alternative templates" would work: I am still thinking of a suitable term to describe other templates for the edit-protectd templates which be cannot be updated to improve operations. So perhaps a good term would be "alternative templates". Numerous people have complained about the protected pages as "this is not a wiki" but the danger from hack-edits must be averted by protections, where we have seen many editors hack unprotected templates which took days, or weeks or months to fix, such as a template hacked on New Years Day. -Wikid77 23:41, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Florida's 9th district

Perhaps someone can help me call this problem to the attention of the right group of interested people. This map is significantly different from what we have at Florida's 9th congressional district and is pointed to by the State of Florida website. Additionally, the representative for the 9th district, Alan Grayson, lives in Orlando, suggesting the official map is correct and ours is wrong.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The one from flsenate.gov appears to be a plan for re-districting from 2012. Not a map of the actual districts at that time. The one we have appears to be a 'this is how the districts are' map at the time it was used. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Map from prior to 2012 courtesy of the Fish & Wildlife service appears to show it in the same place as us. Senate plan for redistricting dated Jan 2012 shows as complete. So as far as I am aware 9 should now be in the middle and ours is out of date. Which probably means all our Florida congressional district maps are out of date. Although since the FWS are too, cant really blame us ;) Although the article itself has been updated with the info that the congressman has changed due to redistricting, but no one changed the pic. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Now 27 congressional districts in 6(?) maps: That official flsenate.gov/Session/Redistricting document notes the plan as completed on January 25, 2012 (last year), with Florida having 27 congressional districts (expanded from 25). The document also lists 6 PDF maps which seem to cover all 27 districts:

• Northwest: H000C9047_map_nw.pdf
• Big Bend:        H000C9047_map_bb.pdf
• Southwest:    H000C9047_map_sw.pdf
• Northeast:    H000C9047_map_ne.pdf
• East central: H000C9047_map_ec.pdf
• Southeast:    H000C9047_map_se.pdf

Those maps should provide a sanity check for each of the 27 districts, as with number 9, "Florida's 9th congressional district" or "Florida's 15th..." etc. Then check back in a few days to see if maps were revised in June 2013. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Began updating maps for renumbered districts: It took me a while to get over the shock of the new locations of the 10th, 12th and 9th district (moved from the west half to east half of the Florida peninsula), but I finally wrote a description of the new 9th congressional district, as located from Orlando down around Osceola County. I re-captioned the old map as the "Former 9th district" and created an interim map box to show the new 9th district, until public-domain maps can be uploaded. There has been talk that the Florida state-government maps are "public domain" (PD), but we had trouble with claims that Italian police crime-scene photos are PD when I think "fair-use" is more accurate, and so the Florida state-govt maps might need to avoid Commons and be kept on WP as fair-use images. Meanwhile, I will put interim maps in articles where boundaries shifted the most:

• Florida's 9th congressional district - cities were ok but added interim map & noted counties
• Florida's 25th congressional district - adding an interim map for raised location
• Florida's 26th congressional district - adding an interim map as new district
• Florida's 27th congressional district - adding interim map as new

Jimbo, I am glad you spotted the problems because it might have been years before the maps were adequately updated, to note the massive relocations of some of Florida's congressional districts, while the U.S. NationalAtlas maps are still outdated. What a nightmare. -Wikid77 01:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

There are some coding tasks that would help make things easier. First, we should have a map "reprojector" which lets you mark the location of a half dozen coordinates on any Wikipedia map and then gives you back a version that is reprocessed to whatever coordinate system you prefer. Next (or combined with this) we should have a map reader that takes data like those Florida maps, automatically recognizes the big colored areas, and turns them into SVG profiles according to their latitude/longitude (as transformed for the desired system). I've made a crude start at the third step with Module:MapClip which can zoom in on a piece of a large set of maps. Fourth, by overlaying multiple images with transparency (or computer generating divs directly from the SVG coordinates using Lua) it should be possible to rework arbitrary road map + congressional districts coordinate data into decent maps of the congressional districts. Hopefully the latitude and longitude coordinates of the congressional district boundaries are not copyrighted, even though there are few artistic works that involve more creativity and scheming in their creation! Wnt (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Using "concept diagrams" of congressional districts: To avoid any copyright issues, although rare, I am merely highlighting the boundaries of whole Florida counties in those districts and then displaying reddish square boxes, superimposed live, on adjacent areas in each district. Because squares are non-copyrighted "shapes" then showing the district boundaries, as rough shapes, is fine until we get U.S. Govt maps as public-domain images. -Wikid77 22:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Florida district articles were accurate but labels misleading: As would be expected after the U.S. national elections in 2012, the contents of the Wikipedia articles for the 27 congressional districts of Florida were accurate, in descriptions, but the map captions gave the misleading impression of being outdated, by saying "District of 2003 to 2013" which seems to mean "2013" as being current maps for this year. Instead, I have been rewording the captions as, "Former district 2003–2012" to omit 2013 and avoid confusion about 2013 being the current date of the maps. Ironically, those district maps had been added on "28 December 2012" just 4 days before they all became obsolete for 2013, despite no maps in those articles during the past 10 years when the maps would be showing the current boundaries. All around, it was a "series of unfortunate events" to put maps in those 27 district articles, with misleading labels, just 4 days before the maps became obsolete, after 10 years with no maps when they would have been appropriate. Anyway, the basic content of the articles has been accurate, and "all is well" (or getting better) in the world of Wikipedia pages about Florida districts. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Created color-square images to highlight map areas: An unexpecting side-effect of trying to provide current maps, for the 27 congressional districts of Florida, has been the creation of standard "color squares" to overlay and indicate areas on the district maps. Despite 10 years of map images, there were no obvious "red-square" or "white-square" images to overlay onto maps (but hundreds of special variations). Hence, I have created obvious name "File:Red_square.gif" (for "") on Commons, to work with any browser, while wondering why no one ever created "File:Red_square.svg" or "File:Red_square.png" as other obvious image-names to display a red square. I think other people have likely created some complex mapping techniques which require special knowledge to navigate, such as the train-route diagrams (wp:RDT). Anyway, those simple blue-square (etc.) images can be overlayed to highlight parts of maps, as when the official map might not be a public-domain image yet. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

• Discovered Firefox map alignment differs from edit-preview when saved: As if there weren't enough MediaWiki user-interface problems, how I have discovered the map div-sections (this week) shift up/down after being edit-saved for Firefox browsers, as noticed when I was working on creating rough district maps for Florida's 27 congressional districts. After all the other, chaotic user-interface nightmares, then I don't mind shifting some map markers up/down to anticipate different alignments after being edit-saved, as being 2-pixel height lower when seen in edit-preview of map alignments. However, it makes me wonder just how much user-interface mush could new users tolerate before being driven away. I am really seeing strong evidence of why computer managers have warned for decades: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"  because computer systems tend to always be more complicated than the available manpower at hand, needed to correct the hideous problems caused by rampant changes to computer software. It takes many days with many people to verify all operations after major changes are made. Firefox browsers showing a shifted alignment between edit-preview and edit-save of map div-sections is a clear example of how bad it can get. -Wikid77 00:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Recaptioned old maps "former...2012" but few new maps: I just changed most of the district articles to recaption the old map as "former nth district, in 2003 to 2012" because I was distracting by fighting the misalignment bug in Firefox browser where the new map div-sections edit-preview as 2-pixel higher than edit-save. Fortunately, the bug only appeared in Firefox, while tests with MSIE show the map's div-section alignment is the same for both edit-preview & edit-save. -Wikid77 23:41, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

After unhelpful and unexplained threats from an involved admin I am banned by the same admin

I am pretty sure everyone can agree that this discussion is best to be left closed - at least for now.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
After unhelpful and unexplained threats from an involved admin I am banned by the same admin even when I didn't touched the article again. Details here (ANI). Mr. Wales do something. Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Discretionary_sanctions. "4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways;" This is the warning and explanation I received. Whatever I do is framed as bias, tendentious editing, and I would not have had any problems with it if that standard was applied towards the same editor who is again and again opposing me. Somehow calling a spade a spade is violation of either POV or AGF. Everybody who is supporting me is a member of a cabal and those are opposing me are the ones who has the monopoly on consensus. I am very, very, very angry. What is going on Sir? Is it a fiefdom of administrators already? urrrrggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! Now I know you don't care about me. I am not asking you to care. I don't expect you to. But you should care about the project. If I am going to go out, I should try one last time. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 11:42, 23 June 2013 (UTC) The issue is currently being discussed at ANI. - Sitush (talk) 11:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC) No it is not being "discussed" in the ANI. It is being ignored/shunned at the ANI. ANI has over 5000 watchers and yet my thread has not seen more than 2 inputs from uninvolved users. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 12:05, 23 June 2013 (UTC) Update For writing this comment: I do not see why people like RegentsPark, Sitush and Maunus should get greater weight in an arbcom case. Except for Bwilkins, you can see all the people you name on one side of the fence at talk:Narendra Modi and its archives. Giving paramount importance to comments from people with a particular orientation would be disastrous. It would be like giving paramount importance to people from palestine on Israel-Palestine affairs. If you do that, the effect would be same as when you get Nazis to lord over Jews. You may also want to keep in mind the point that RegentsPark may look like a Westerner to everyone, but may actually be Pakistani POV. If you think RegentsPark (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is Western POV, instead of looking at his username, you should look into the type of articles he edits constantly. Does that look like a Western ed to you? -OrangesRyellow blocked for a week. Yet the blocker himself doesn't mind claiming:[1], "As others have noted, many of the editors who take part are entrenched nationalist and/or political POV-pushers, on both sides" Yogesh Khandke - banned from all subjects about "colonialism and Indian history", it happened on ANI, guess who banned him? Answer: Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC) Mrt3366 - (me) banned on my talk unilaterally, for making a supposedly POV edit with legitimate sources. I supposedly miscalculated the due weight of the claim. WOW! What a solid basis for a SIX months ban. OrangeRyellow - blocked, soon to be banned I would not mind any of it if the following were not true and he was banned also. Darkness Shines Tried to move 2002 Gujarat Hindu-Muslim riot → "Anti-Muslim pogrom in Gujarat 2002" created an entire article Anti-Muslim pogroms in India twice with cherry-picked sources, framed distorted claims as assertions of facts, alleged the WHOLE GOVERNMENT of being complicit in killing its own citizens. Then created a category of the same name added articles as per his own whim. Then defended both obdurately thrice, first category on CFD and then the article on AFD (result:delete) and then defended it again on DRV. Got blocked for two weeks, then unblocked by RegentsPark (involved with him on multiple threads), then blocked by Spartaz then AGAIN unilaterally unblocked by RegentsPark even after the blocking admin explicitly refused to even consider an unblock. (See this) THE BIAS is only ONE side is actually being ELIMINATED for the imbroglio that is created by both the sides. There are others who are as biased and blindly against certain elements of India as Darkness Shines is now. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 07:51, 24 June 2013 (UTC) MrT, let me state this openly and plainly here on Jimbo's talk page - you are one of the Indian/Hindu nationalist POV-warriors who, along with the Pakistani/Muslim POV-warriors, are poisoning the entire topic area of India/Pakistan (and I see some irony here in your bringing it to Jimbo, as he has witnessed your kind of nationalist ire in person himself). Having first-hand experience of many people from both countries (and of India itself, though unfortunately not Pakistan yet), your battlefield approach saddens me, because I know it misrepresents the vast majority of the people in your the two countries/of the two cultures. If you carry on your current approach, attacking everyone who disagrees with you, I predict your days as a Wikipedian will not be many. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC) There you go. What is THIS SHIT you're talking about????????????? You support the ban against me because you think I come from INDIA/PAKISTAN? What do you mean by "YOUR COUNTRY"? What do these have to do with anything here????????? You're presumptions are not only unhelpful but also offensively to a certain extent. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Let Mr. Wales speak for himself. I respect his opinion, he has the most at stake here, his comments are important. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC) I have modified my statement, above, to say "I know it misrepresents the vast majority of the people in your the two countries/of the two cultures" -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Did you also modify the way you look at the issue? Who are you deceiving? It was no mistake, you have lost respect in my eyes. Also people keep abusing these words "nationalism". You can refer to a person's great love for their nation as nationalism, often associated with a belief that a particular nation is better than any other nation. I neither claimed India/Pakistan is my nation, nor did I say India/Pakistan is better than the rest of the world. Hence to call somebody like me a "Nationalist" is a gross violation of civility and AGF. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC) So I've lost the respect of someone who indulges in this kind of commentary? I'm sure I really don't need to explain how little that pains me -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:03, 24 June 2013 (UTC) What commentary?? You referred to a talk page comment where I deposited links about SEX-GANGS' operations in UK and that's it nothing more. I didn't create that section, I stalk that user's talk page. You seem to be seeing something beyond what actually exists. Your presumptions worry me. Mr T(Talk?) 10:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC) You honestly don't see any problem with your drive-by highlighting of anti-Muslim articles in the tabloid press (like the Daily Mail) with the comment "God help Britain!" appended, and don't see that as any exposition of an anti-Muslim POV? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC) I did not highlight anything. Again, you're really assuming very bad faith. I didn't edit those articles and I was frankly appalled at the reports I read. That is the reason I said, God help Britain. What's wrong with that? You seem to be seeing something more than what actually exists. Mr T(Talk?) 11:58, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Mrt, you may be interested in this from the BBC. Others may be interested in the old use of {{User Nationalist}} on your user page. Yes, you also proclaimed {{User Unbiased}} but the pattern of your contributions over a prolonged period of time has indicated to numerous people in numerous past ANI reports etc that the latter is less accurate in practice than the former. However, I think the key thing right now is probably for you to go have a cup of tea: I can understand that you are upset but it is affecting your ability to think clearly (eg: you are making numerous revisions to initial posts) and you are now forum shopping here also. Maybe go take a break for a few hours and return refreshed? - Sitush (talk) 12:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC) That's right it was up there in 13 February 2012 for one single day, I didn't know what nationalism even meant back then. Then I removed it the very next day. It's nice that you feel the need to dredge up userboxes from 2012 to incriminate me? And then you're conveniently discarding and counting user-boxes basing on your whims. How nice of you! Mr T(Talk?) 12:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Firstly, I didn't do it with any agenda, besides, Who says that I cannot link to anti-muslim article?? And is that the reason you automatically assume bad faith on my part? Are you kidding me? Are all admins like you? Mr T(Talk?) 12:01, 24 June 2013 (UTC) I would like to urge you to use a cooler head. Your language is pretty harsh and filled with accusations, and it's possible it's a cause for stirring up feelings all around. →AzaToth 12:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)Do you see this Mr. Wales? Assume Good faith, assume good faith.. wow! My "battlefield approach"? "people in your two countries"? Wow...I am flabbergasted. I am openly vilified, vituperated, why? Because I put in one well-sourced edit that could be perceived as POV. This whole ban is a clear-cut case of WP:OFFENSE. People got offended and I am banned without a discussion and a fair trial. I am the one who is presenting the diffs BTW. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict) *Mrt, as is noted in an ANI heading, the problem is not one edit but rather cumulative. Certainly, there are people on the "other side" who have behaved just a poorly and tendentiously as you over a long period of time. They've had blocks etc and likely will end up with more because I cannot see them changing. However, the issue is your behaviour and the actions of others do not excuse your own actions. I really don't think you are likely to achieve much traction in continuing this thread here: Jimbo is pretty much just another contributor and he's unlikely to over-rule anything that happens at ANI. - Sitush (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)Where are those "cumulative edits"???? Show me? Where was the discussion? Sitush, do not attack straw man. Please! I am asking for a consistent treatment while handling similar contravention by multiple editor. "Jimbo is pretty much just another contributor" - Sitush please!! There is reason why I didn't go to your talk page with these accusations. And don't get me started about your behaviour and baiting, okay? [2], [3], [4], [5]. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 09:01, 24 June 2013 (UTC) There is currently witchhunt going on on Wikipedia where involved admins are blocking, otherwise reasonable editors with petty excuses. OrangesRyellow is only the latest of the victims. Mr T(Talk?) 11:22, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Unfortunately, as much as many of us have warned you and tried to guide you, you are rapidly heading towards your own block based on your yelling, screaming, and demeaning the volunteers on this project because they're not acting the way you want them to. As I have said elsewhere, your attacks and unreasonableness have basically led to your cries reaching deaf ears. Nobody is going to do anyone favours when it's tinged with attacks, ultimatae, or when it's seen to be rewarding poor behaviour (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:37, 24 June 2013 (UTC) New allegation of "trolling". How respectful of you!! Somebody else says I am one of "the Indian/Hindu nationalist POV-warriors". It seems I am the one who is getting attacked. I am not trolling I am very angry and disappointed. Mr T(Talk?) 11:51, 24 June 2013 (UTC) I'm going to throw in my two cents here - I've pretty much just skimmed through the comments (a clear case of TLDR) - Mr. T - quite frankly - coming at everyone here with this kind of attitude will make editors turn against you. I'm going to close this discussion, and how about you take 24 hours, cool down, and come back and open a new thread (if you choose to) using a lighter tone. You're accusing others of not assuming good faith, how about you start off the discussion on the right foot yourself? Dusti*poke* 22:34, 24 June 2013 (UTC) I haven't looked in to the allegations made here, but so long as they are not being disruptive, I think the editor can decide for themselves the best way forward. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm being WP:BOLD, and I've left feedback on the users page. It's obvious that the editor is upset and angry at the moment, and he's being baited to stay angry. I believe it's best that everyone step back from this, allow the editor to cool down, and then decide where to go. The obvious forum is the place to go - and that's not here. Dusti^*poke* 01:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The non-administrator closer of this thread whose user page this isn't, says on my talk, that the legitimacy of the edit upon which my block hinges "doesn't matter". That I "need to keep [my] head down low"[6]. Oh and my downfall - my fault... I care too much. What is this? Why are you allowing this Mr. Wales? Mr T^(Talk?) 06:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

For the record - the entire conversation is on his talk page. I was trying to help Mr. T because I feel he can definitely benefit from adoption - either by myself or another editor - however, he's unable to tell the difference in a friend and a foe. Dusti^*poke* 06:51, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Where I come from "friends" don't ask me to accept the blame for something I didn't do and with humility. Maybe you don't agree. If so, then let's agree to disagree. Mr T^(Talk?) 07:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps user-preference to merge edit-conflicts

At this point, I think it would be necessary to have an option in Special:Preferences to retain current edit-conflicts, because of some people claiming edit-conflicts are essential to "progress" among editors:

• At least 3 developers have insisted that adjacent-line edits should not be merged.
• One developer claimed that the risk of 2 editors both prepending the same duplicate tag-box should be halted by edit-conflict in non-duplicate cases.
• Other editors have noted they like edit-conflicts for a chance to re-read the discussion, and re-think the reply.

With a sizeable number of editors wanting to be blocked from editing, by erstwhile changes made by other editors, then I feel the auto-merging of potential edit-conflicts should be an option which some editors can refuse, by clicking "keep edit-conflicts". Typically, the exact opposite is the case: most people do not want to seek "pre-approval" to add text, and either do not care if someone stated their same opinion(s) or feel that "many voices" might be a good thing, to repeat the similar replies.

The groundswell of people happy with edit-conflicts is another benefit of discussing the possibilities of auto-merging adjacent edits, because I would have never guessed how so many people like having their edits quickly rejected (or so they claim). But also, perhaps after a while, more editors might switch to no (about "keep edit-conflicts"), as part of a long-term evolution about easier ways to handle numerous replies to a discussion, or numerous changes to adjacent lines in a page. For new users, I would guess most would prefer to auto-merge multiple replies, and then they could re-edit to reword/remove replies that seemed out-of-sync with nearby replies. The most important point is to keep discussing the auto-merging of edit-conflicts and to fully explore how to gain consensus for faster discussions or frequent updates to busy pages. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm totally clueless about what you are trying to propose here? Could you perhaps include some context, and also perhaps some links to the postulates above. _→AzaToth 11:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

If you'll accept something personal, you're good with Javascript, aren't you? It should be quite possible to add a "Resolve" button right at the top of the edit conflict page, and/or a tool that scans recent historical revisions of an article for improper edit conflict resolutions (i.e. edits that take one thing out and add another a long way away from it). Wnt (talk) 21:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for drafting guidelines/MOS for religion, philosophy, politics, "ideas," what have you

Hi. There are, at present, no particular clear guidelines for religious material here, or, for that matter, guidelines for how to deal with ideas in general, particularly those ideas which might be accepted as true by individuals of a given religious, political, or scientific stance. There have been attempts in the past to draft such guidelines, but they have quickly been derailed. I am dropping this note on the talk pages of a number of editors who I believe have some interest in these topics, or have shown some ability and interest in helping to develop broad topic areas, such as yourself, and asking them to review the material at User:John Carter/Guidelines discussion and perhaps take part in an effort to decide what should be covered in such guidelines, should they be determined useful, and what phrasing should be used. I also raise a few questions about broader possible changes in some things here, which you might have some more clear interest in. I would be honored to have your input, or that of anyone else who sees this discussion and feels that they might have something productive to contribute. John Carter (talk) 20:37, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Could you possibly explain the section on spiritual revelation a bit more? I'm concerned that it might lead to supporting literalist intepretation when that may not have been the intent of people who wrote their revelations (see: John). Sceptre ^(talk) 20:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

• WP:MOS for style religions: I think the wp:MOS is already the Bible for the "Church of Holy Punctuation" with the Holyland centered around God's Dash or Satan's Hyphen, or so it seems. In fact, there is great danger of being topic-banned if anyone dares to speak the blasphemy that no one separates hyphenated words with dashes any more, and even hyphens are disappearing from the world in words such as "co-operation" becoming "cooperation" and such. I worry about style-obsession being applied to the World's religions, after watching numerous people threatened with blocks at wp:ANI when they noted how some formal terms are spelled with hyphens (re "hyphenated Americans") or where dashes are officially given separate meanings in various scientific disciplines. There has been much smoke to obscure the truth as with the "Michelson-Morley Experiment" where even those two scientists spelled their experiment(s) with a hyphen (not a dash). When people try to explain it is wrong to rewrite the wp:COMMONNAME of a title, by respelling it with dashes, then the response has been, "Style is never wrong, merely inappropriate" as implying there is no true/false logic to stop people imposing more style rules, just restyle "false" to appear as "trualse". Imagine if the wp:MOS styles were expanded to demand what symbols could, or could not, be used when describing various religions or naming their articles. Far too dangerous. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

This isn't even "silly season" yet ...

Mike Gatto has a quite laudatory BLP - with a couple or three items which look rather like a campaign brochure (i.e. of no major importance, puffy, etc.). At what point will folks accept that Wikipedia is not a proper campaign site? Collect (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

That's obviously an automatic Keep at AfD (elected member of a state legislature), so the solution is to just fix it, if the POV offends thee... And WP will be used as a campaign tool forever and ever, a-men, in answer to your query. Huge traffic + no cost = gold. Carrite (talk) 04:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

BTW, this is a good example of why I think all candidates for office of this level should clear the notability bar automatically. Otherwise, WP is inherently biased in favor of incumbents. It is an unfair situation. Carrite (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Your suggestion is that ALL members of state legislatures are notable? That seems a tad hard to swallow. Good luck arguing that at Wikipedia:Notability_(people). NickCT (talk) 14:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#Politicians already says that all members of state legislatures are notable. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see how removing what law firm he first worked for is supposed to improve his biography; nor removing which bills he proposed. Removing content from articles purely for the sake of doing so (or to reduce their potential usefulness in the campaign) really is vandalism, plain and simple. If you want to push the opposing POV the valid way to do that is to search up some sources that strike some sour notes and add them, not take out whatever you feel like based on a claim it is "not important" (to you, that is). I should note that for a politician there will always be sources that strike sour notes, so an article this sweet-and-light probably does need some of that kind of work. Wnt (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

"Gatto’s 2012 legislative program included bills: to keep utility rates low by allowing utilities to use biofuel; to crack down on lobbyists who improperly try to influence tax assessors; to make sporting events safer by preventing fan violence at stadiums; and measures to make it more difficult to write spending programs into the California Constitution." Minutiae which would look excellent on an election pamphlet, referenced to a primary source and no indication of the importance of the legislation (or what passed into law). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires a reliable, published source. Note lack of words like "secondary". Especially when the only "challenge" is based on the material being uninteresting. An indication of the importance is desirable - full legislative history is desirable - how is that supposed to get in the article if you don't leave what it has in it? It's not like it's that hard to find some of this for California Homemade Food Act, which was wikilinked all along. I feel like the people doing these deletions picture themselves as the one working in the nice glassed-in office with the big desk looking out over a sea of poor schmucks with typewriters who ought to be grateful they were given a job, who should come back with however many drafts it takes to satisfy the editor-in-chief's point of view. Well, you're not the editor in chief, and these people don't come back with their drafts, they leave, they do free work on other web sites that show more appreciation for their contributions. Wnt (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Really? What (non-partisan) websites are those? Wikipedia's job is not to copy a politician's "full legislative history" into their bio - that is not desirable. It's to figure out what's important, again not by looking at primary sources, but bylooking for secondary sources. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course our job is to copy full legislative history! If somebody does something in their life that is reported by the reliable sources, we should cover it. In the event that the legislative history became so big the rest of the article was lost in it, we should spin it off into a more specialized article. This is especially true when it comes to proposing bills, which is simultaneously notable, objective, important, yet profoundly personal and revealing of philosophy and character. Wnt (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Wnt is completely right and I'm not sure where Calibri gets this idea that secondary sources are the only place to look (wait... I do know, and it's a shame). We don't pick and choose what's important, that's why we use sources, we write what they say, if it wasn't important it wouldn't be in a source. Notability regards the subject, not the facts. If something bores you, don't worry about the article and work on something that grabs your attention. Not every subject has to be about things that grab you.Camelbinky (talk) 02:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Calibri? Are you referring to me? Gatto has authored 61 bills. Are we going to toss out WP:INDISCRIMINATE so we can include the important yet profoundly personal "...request that the Department of Transportation erect informational signs on State Highway Route 5 in the County of Los Angeles directing motorists to the Armenian Cathedral Complex"? Are we going to toss out WP:PRIMARY too, and let politicians dictate how important and notable all their work is? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see that in the old version, so I assume this is hypothetical. Nonetheless, I answer hypotheticals, so here it is: Wikipedia cannot copy the entire world; it summarizes it. That means that if an editor finds an article about a bill to erect informational signs, it is valid to include a sentence about it. (Subject to possible splitting to a sub article per WP:Summary style) The existence of a source about it to cite and an editor interested to cite it is enough to mean it is worth mentioning. However, if what you can find about this bill is only an item within a computerized listing of his bills from the state assembly that lists 61 items, and that is one of the items, then it is more appropriate to summarize what the whole list was about rather than to detail each item however minor. Wnt (talk) 03:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Not exactly a hypothetical as you said our job is to "copy full legislative history" and that was one of his bills (source [7]). And it's hard to summarize the whole list given its disparate nature. I'm saying we should include items only if they have non-trivial coverage in independent secondary sources. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Once the contributions of the obvious conflict-of-interest account Ctrconstgovt are removed, the article looks fine. Tarc (talk) 20:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Commons:Commons talk:Photographs of identifiable people/Update 2013/Moral issues

There is a discussion on Portraits of people:Moral issues at Commons:Commons talk:Photographs of identifiable people/Update 2013/Moral issues. JKadavoor Jee 04:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Snowden editing?

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere. In the media there have been reports of user accounts used on various tech discussion sites by Edward Snowden. He was apparently quite an active person online, particularly a few years back when he was younger. It seems highly likely to me that he would have edited Wikipedia - most people who fit his profile (tech savvy, internet activist types) will have done so. Do we have any evidence of that, or suspicions about that?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Do we know what usernames he used on other websites? I expect they might have the same name as a possible account on Wikipedia. However, I'm curious as to why we need to know? — Richard BB 08:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we 'need' to know. I'm just curious, and I imagine many other people would be as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Why do we care? This violates our outing policy, so please desist from attempting to connect Snowden to some Wikipedia account. Being "just curious" is no reason to out somebody. Reaper Eternal (talk) 10:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

This is the relevant statement published in Slate: 'Snowden's comments on the tech website were discovered by Anthony DeRosa after Reuters reported that the now-famous leaker had previously used the online handle "The True HOOHA" on an anime site. From there, it wasn't exactly a leap to his Ars username of "TheTrueHOOHA."' Slate Ars Technica, Independent, UK, and New York Times also cover the known facts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any account on Wikipedia named either TheTrueHOOHA (talk · contribs) or The True HOOHA (talk · contribs), so I think that's probably not the case. — Richard BB 09:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That's my impression as well. I was mostly wondering, as per the original inquiry, whether this has been discussed extensively somewhere.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• An ANI involving this conversation and a "high profile admin"(Jimbo Wales) has been started at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Attempted_outing_of_Edward_Snowden Dream Focus 10:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I may be in the minority opinion here but as long as he hasn't violated any of our rules or policies I don't really care if he does edit. I also think its likely that he has done so but I don't think its really relevant. Kumioko (talk) 10:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Didn't take long for that one to explode into a big ol' ball of drama. Checking some of Snowden's aliases, I found one account that I'm curious about. Probably not him, and I guess I can't name it anyway. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 10:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't be intimidated - that drama isn't about Snowden, it's about drama for the sake of drama. If you aren't sure it would be appropriate to make it public, please do feel free to email me so that I can assess it. It seems likely that this is of interest to reporters as well, and so I think it is important that we be prepared with a full understanding of the facts. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

My concern is that your original post appears to be an invitation to ask people to post here information that risks Snowden's outing. That could have been a slip of the keyboard, but then your response when the outing issue was directly raised seems to suggest that it was intentional and you do not care if your question encouraged people to post such information. Do you think it is acceptable for people to speculate or provide evidence here of Snowden's WP identity? If you do, why isn't that outing? If you don't, why did you take the risk? DeCausa (talk) 11:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not 'outing' when the user ids in question are already published widely in the media in reliable sources. I looked for a couple of variant spellings and found nothing, so I asked to see if others could find anything. I think it is not only acceptable but highly desirable for people to openly discuss such matters. If someone discovers or knows something that they feel would be inappropriate to post publicly, then they should send it to me privately.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Execept "Do we have any evidence of that, or suspicions about that?" (my emphasis) doesn't really convey that. I didn't read your post as saying has anyone in the media identified Snowden's account, if so what did it say. If that's what you're saying (as opposed to "let's do our own digging"), then I have no problem DeCausa (talk) 11:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the need for drama, but your comments could be seen as a call to action to out him, Jimmy. You are aware of how literal some will take your comments. Journalists are free to do what we aren't supposed to do as Wikipedians. Clearing that up might make some of the drama go away. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 11:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I strongly encourage people to engage in an open discussion of publicly available information relating to this issue. I strongly discourage anyone from engaging in outing. Those who would seek to block even a conversation about this are mistaken. Wikipedia must always thrive on open and honest discussion and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Another website said that in addition to "The True Hooha" that he also used "Phish".--v/r - TP 12:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources aren't infallible. My concern is that one typo and one enthusiastic editor can create a lot of pain for an innocent party here. The potential for harm shouldn't be underestimated. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 13:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and I don't really understand what is to be achieved by all this, other than "isn't that interesting". If someone discovers that User:xyz is Snowden then what? Look to see if he's dropped some revelatory WP:OR into an article! It doesn't feel like what we're here for. DeCausa (talk) 13:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, you send mixed messages when you encourage us to out a Wikipedia editor just because he's in the news. I think it would be more appropriate for you to start this type of discussion at Wikipediocracy. That's one of the reasons that site exists, to discuss WP in a place where you don't have to worry about coming into conflict with WP's bizarre policies and the arbitrary administrative actions that half-heartedly enforce those policies. Cla68 (talk) 13:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I'm sending any mixed message at all. To the extent that Wikipedia has "bizarre" policies, we should discuss them here - openly - and change them here. How would you propose changing policy in this instance?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not really seeing the purpose of connecting Snowden to a Wikipedia account. You've taken "fight the man" stance on SOPA and related issues in the past, so even if you did uncover an account here used by him, wouldn't you want that fact kept from Big Government? Tarc (talk) 13:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't see the logic in that at all. I'm not talking about outing - I'm talking about a public discussion of public facts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • In the context of Wikipedia Snowden is also an innocent party. The request to dig up Snowden's identity, (clear call for outing as far as I can understand) and the subsequent clarification is unfortunate. Talk pages too have a purpose: "To discuss how to build a better encyclopaedia", I don't see how this discussion meets that criterion. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
    • I personally think in general Snowden is an "innocent party" - a hero, in fact. Discussion of questions surrounding identity, famous people in the news, editing of Wikipedia, and so on are all well within the scope of discussions about how to improve the encyclopedia. One of the important roles that we play in the world is to encourage and emphasize openness, honesty, and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Pricasso portrait revisited

Jimbo, you really ought to read How Wikimedia Commons became a massive amateur porn hub by Kevin Morris on The Daily Dot. It contains a revealing interview with artist Tim Patch (Pricasso). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:50, 25 June 2013 (UTC)