Talk:Arseniy Yatsenyuk

Settling confusion

I think what is making a lot of confusion here is the claim that 'Yatsenyuk is Jewish' which is not true; what would be true would be to say that his parents are Jewish, as this is what sources are reporting; to say Yatsenyuk is Jewish is incorrect (thus, the rabbi Dov Bleich quoted before would be correct), but The Guardian and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Article say he has "Jewish Origins", while this article from Oxford Analytica says he was born to "Jewish Parents" and so I'm restoring this mention, as it's one thing to say in the article Yatsenyuk is Jewish (which isn't true), but to remove all references of his parents or family's Judaism when numerous sources exist for it to be quoted, and I'm not going to suddenly accuse The Guardian, Oxford Analytica, etc. of Anti-semitism, so I'm adding it back in. Solntsa90 (talk) 14:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that is an interpretation of the sources that goes beyond what the sources actually say. As to whether his alleged Jewish ethnicity should be discussed at all, that is something for the wider editor community to decide, or if necessary administrators. I would certainly be willing to abide by consensus, both as to whether to discuss and if so, what to include. Because it's a BLP, the rules are somewhat different. There was a decision by a WP policy-making committee involving what the subjects of BLPs themselves say. (I'm trying to find it and will cite it here when I do.) Paavo273 (talk) 17:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the article with your additions, without the mention of him as a Jew in category sections, and the blurb about how his official website says his parents are ethnic Ukrainian (though it doesn't make mention as to whether this is Ukrainian Jews or not, since religion is absent from the family tree) and how the Guardian and other sources report him as having Jewish parentage or "origins" is a good settlement on the issue, and no more should be said as to his ethnicity, as it isn't important elsewhere except his early biography. But let's not include him under category: Jewish Ukrainians or Category: Ukrainians of Jewish descent, just to be on the safe side. Solntsa90 (talk) 17:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi User:Solntsa90: Rel your edit summary today "No RSs on Yatsenyuk being Romanian descent makes this an extraordinary claim without extraordinary evidence", are you maintaining the Romanian source is not a RS? This is what that cited source (within the first ten lines) for that info said (translation with help of googletranslate ):

original--"Unul dintre bunicii lui Arsenie Iațeniuc era etnic roman și cetățean al României Mari interbelice. Este familiarizat cu problemele românilor din nordul Bucovinei și înțelege destul de bine românește."

translated--"One of Arsenal's grandmothers was ethnic Romanian citizen Yatsenyuk of interwar Greater Romania . [Yatsenyuk] is familiar with the problems of Romanians in Northern Bukovina..." Paavo273 (talk) 18:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I found another source that says this: "In a country where there is an undeniable link between anti-Semitism and some sectors of the far right, his supposed Jewish ancestry became a campaign issue."

Can we agree that

A. the vast majority of sources say NOTHING about AY's ethnicity?

B. Of the sources we've discussed supporting AY Jewish ethnicity, three of those (Judah, Kuzio-OA, and rabbi piece) either are Kuzio or cite Kuzio as the authority for Jewish ethnicity?

Besides that we have the Harriet Salem Guardian article and this one more from the Jewish Weekly that I don't think has ever been discussed, although posted and blanked multiple times:

"Sergey Ratushnyak, the mayor of one western Ukrainian town who was running for president, engaged in smear tactics against another candidate, Front for Change leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk, over his alleged Jewish roots.

"Ratushnyak, the mayor of Uzhgorod, portrayed Yatsenyuk as a “brazen Jew” serving “the interests of thieves who dominate Ukraine” and using money obtained from criminal activities to capture the presidency. Others also attacked Yatsenyuk as a thieving Jew.

"Ratushnyak garnered less than 1 percent of the vote, and Yatsenyuk, whose hypothetical Jewishness was never established (my emphasis), won nearly 7 percent.

Paavo273 (talk) 19:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm reading a lot about 'alleged' Jewish descent but nothing that confirms explicitly that he has a Jewish parent. Is this not the case? If not, please provide the source which proves without doubt he has a Jewish parent.--Львівське (говорити) 23:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not reading any actual evidence at all that he has Jewish ethnicity, whether mom or dad or babushka or dedushka. Taras Kuzio + Harriet Salem, and the short VOA-sourced n.p. article are pretty much the only ones who make the claim of his Jewish ethnicity. Paavo273 (talk) 23:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Salem says "He has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins" - has he 'played them down' or has he denied them? If he denies outright, exceptional evidence is needed to prove he is lying. He has produced his own family tree, yes? --Львівське (говорити) 23:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• 1. Can we just agree to hash this out here or if necessary at WP:DRN to avoid all the rapid-fire reverting and blanking?
• 2. What was the objection to the Romanian ethnicity info--that it really is not an RS or that it's stated in the wrong voice or what?
• 3. As noted B4, I'm uncomfortable calling someone's personal website "official." To me that has connotations of government-sponsored. Whaddaya all think? (I'd be okay with, "According to his "official" website..."; that says it's only HE who calls it that.)
• 4. Speaking of which, I did just today write to what IMO is AY's "official" website, that of the prime minister of Ukraine. IMO if his rep. writes back and says he has Jewish ethnicity, the matter is settled. If not, then what? Paavo273 (talk) 08:02, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I apologise for deleting the Romanian source, my language expertise are Japanese and Russian, I know almost nothing about Latin-based languages (unless you would like to include English) and I thought that was a reference for Yatsenyuk's language abilities in Romanian alone, not a reference to his grandparent. I guess I should investigate foreign sources more closely before editing them next time.

As for the other sources, we do not know their known primary sources, we can only rely on their expertise and data until someone from Yatsenyuk's people officially discredit this rumour being reported as fact by some outlets, or lend credence to it. Yatsenyuk's parents are Jewish is the claim, not that Yatsenyuk himself is of Jewish ethnicity, and so you may get a response similar to the one Dov Bleich gave us without mentioning his parents in your inquiry.

If he says that neither he nor his parents are Jewish, then that pretty much settles the debate once and for all, and would show that Oxford Analytica really ought to do more research before giving their paid clients bad info. Solntsa90 (talk) 19:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed alternative ethnic origin wording for AY--PLEASE type or paste your own version below

Last version by User:Solntsa90 minus languages spoken which was moved to birth and parents:

The official site of Yatsenyuk states his parents and grandparents were ethnic Ukrainians. Analytical, academic and press sources have stated that he was born tо Jewish-Ukrainian parents, with The Guardian having reported that he “has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland” In response to antisemitic slurs such as "criminal Jew" made by some candidates in the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election, the chief rabbi of Ukraine Yaakov Dov Bleich has said, "“Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not Jewish.".

Paavo273 (talk) 08:06, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I think this version is fine; It's factual, it covers both the anti-semitic fringe element behind saying that his family is Jewish, as well as the legitimacy that some of the rumors may actually have as reported by the papers. I think as long as what seems to be his official website lists his ethnicity as Ukrainian, we should say that, however, I can't help but notice that his family tree conspicuously lacks data for the rest of his family members, making our editing duties a bit more difficult. If you would like to add any alternative wordings that you find appropriate, please let the talk page know. Solntsa90 (talk) 19:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

It's putting too much emphasis on a couple of English language sources, which are not known for fact-checking (i.e. The Guardian). There are no reliable sources I could find, that state that he has Jewish origins (again it is only an article by an English-speaking Guardian journalist, who could well have confused the allegations with whether there is actually any evidence). Avaya1 (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

• Which way The Guardian article does not have an evidence? Please, provide reference beating The Guardian claim.--96.241.218.72 (talk) 15:41, 5 April 2014 (UTC)