Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts

Table for Nikita Krylov?

Not sure if someone regularly watches new MMA pages to do this, but if someone enjoys (or tolerates) making record tables, Nikita Krylov could use one. I started, but got very bored. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:08, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Strikeforce GP mess

An IP has fiddled with a bunch of stuff today, largely related to the Strikeforce Heavyweight tournament. Apparently, it didn't happen. I've reverted on Silva, someone else may want the rest. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:07, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

"Total gate" field for event articles

Is there some sort of partial or subgate I'm missing that makes the "total" part necessary? If so, should we list those, too? If not, any reason not to change it to simply "Gate"? InedibleHulk (talk) 10:37, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

spamming for mixedmartialarts.com

Dancadwiki (talk · contribs) has been spamming mixedmartialarts.com into the External Links sections for a bunch of articles on fighters. If the community thinks this website is as notable as Sherdog, please let me know. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

IMO mixedmartialarts.com is reliable as Sherdog... though, having both in the external links section is surely redundant. If i were to choose, i would prefer Sherdog over mixedmartialarts.com. Poison Whiskey 21:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

MMA record

I'm new to this, so I'm not even sure I'm commenting in the correct place. But I'd like to make a proposal for allowing future bouts in the MMArecordbox, provided the bout has been officially announced by the hosting organization, a reference to the announcement is included, and fields with undetermined values (ie Res., Record, Method, Round, Time, etc) are left empty.

This would contradict the current guidelines, which state: "Never add future bouts. The purpose of the record table is to provide a quick account of a fighter's past career, not to speculate about his/her future. Upcoming bouts that have been officially announced can only be mentioned within the body text at the end of the Mixed martial arts career section, provided that they are notable (covered by reliable third-party sources.)"

In my opinion, this would be the most ideal place for a person to find information about upcoming bouts for a particular fighter, and shouldn't cause any conflicts with the data for completed bouts. --Txaggiemichael (talk) 17:01, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

@Txaggiemichael: Yes, this is the correct place for your question. While I agree that Wikipedia has become a convenient place to look up facts like that, WP:CRYSTAL prohibits future events because of the ephemeral nature of the future. How often do we have reliable sources for these predictions? Yes, I could hear Dana White say that one fighter is going to face some other fighter but everything could (and often does) change. Sticking with what actually happened in the past makes more sense to me. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

@Chris troutman: I get what you're saying, but with that logic, wouldn't that mean we shouldn't be putting the "official fight card" on articles for future events? (ie UFC 173) --Txaggiemichael (talk) 04:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that, too. Typically these events move forward as scheduled and so no massive deletions ever happen. Because of that editors let it go. Editors may agree with your logic regarding the announced fights. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

@Chris troutman: Again, my argument only pertains to those bouts that have been "officially" announced, and are verifiable via the hosting organization. In that sense, it is essentially presenting factual information to the readers, not so much "speculation", in my opinion. I don't mean to sound crass or stubborn, just trying to explain how I think this could benefit the readers. Theoretically, would one simply modify the guidelines on WP:MMA with a detailed description of these altered guidelines? --Txaggiemichael (talk) 04:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a fine idea. Doesn't imply they will certainly happen, only that they're booked. "Card Subject to Change" is more of a rule than standard disclaimer. Wikipedia should relay what the promotion presumes, but not make those presumptions itself. When the card changes, so will the tables. Like any article. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:24, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

I do not have a strong opinion on this but I very generally prefer to keep a "record table" as a record of events that have happened. Additionally, while everything is always a slippery slope to somewhere, it seems easier to police the addition of any future event to these tables than to determine the reliability of a cited source.

That said, I think there is nothing wrong with displaying upcoming fights in a prominent manner somewhere in the article (not just in the main text.) Like maybe something in the infobox or an addition to the record table template that makes it very clear this is a future fight subject to change. SQGibbon (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

@SQGibbon: While I wouldn't be opposed to moving information about a fighter's next scheduled bout, I'd argue that the recordbox seems the most logical place for this information. Not unlike a schedule for a team sport. --Txaggiemichael (talk) 18:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Txaggiemichael:I just noticed that you changed the WP:MMA project page to reflect your preferred conclusion. You should not have done this as there is no clear consensus to change the guideline. In the event that there is no clear consensus for change we keep the status quo as per WP:CONSENSUS. SQGibbon (talk) 16:14, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

@SQGibbon:Okay, so how do we go about achieving a "clear consensus"? I read WP:CONSENSUS, and honestly, it's a bit vague in what exactly "consensus" means. I was under the impression that the few people involved in this discussion had decided that the proposed change seemed logical. Txaggiemichael (talk) 05:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

How did you achieve that impression? I did not say that I agreed with the change and neither did Chris troutman. You and Inedible Hulk want the change. Consensus is not a vote, by the way, but an agreement by involved editors inline with existing Wikipedia policy and guidelines. I am not aware of any policies or guidelines that directly affect this issue (beyond things we all agree on like reliable sources and the like, but that's all indirect stuff) so it comes down to achieving an agreement among interested Wikipedians. As I said, I do not have a strong opinion on this but do lean toward not including future fights. Not only is the table a "record" of the fighters' accomplishments but given the nature of the sport fights are cancelled. When dealing with most sports teams schedules are made months in advance and only acts of god prevent a scheduled match from happening. In MMA (and other individual sports) anything can happen including injury, sickness, failing to make weight, contract dispute, retirement, plus all the usual acts of god. Putting a claim like this in a record table is telling the reading public that the fight is going to take place without any implied disclaimers (remember, this is a general encyclopedia and the content is meant for the average person and not for MMA fans). Including an upcoming fight in the main text is a different beast as the prose can be written such that it's clear that the fight might not happen "SQGibbon is scheduled to fight Jimbo Wales Christmas Day 2014" and then when Jimmy chickens out we can provide that explanation with a reliable source. Records tables do not allow for any such nuance or explanation but just present facts.

Additionally, policing records tables is already a full-time job just to keep out the vandalism and other violations of the guidelines. Requiring us to check the source used in an edit to make sure it is an official announcement just adds to the pain-in-the-assness of the whole business.

Finally, like I said, I'm not opposed to including the information somewhere else or even in a special row of the records table that is designed in such a way as to make clear that this is a "scheduled" fight with a clear spot for a link to the official announcement. I agree that it is useful for people to be able to easily find whom a fighter is schedule to fight next but feel that we need to make sure we don't just lump it in with other information in a potentially misleading manner.SQGibbon (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

@SQGibbon:Okay, point(s) taken. I definitely agree with your logic on where the information should reside, but definitely feel that scheduled fight information is valuable information that should be displayed somewhere. Where exactly, I don't know. Could there possibly be a precedence for this type of information in other wiki projects? Maybe a separate table, labeled something like "Scheduled Mixed Martial Arts Bouts" would be ideal? Wherever it resides, I think it's important that at very least the scheduled date and event name/wiki article link be displayed as well. Txaggiemichael (talk) 04:29, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

@Txaggiemichael: I am not aware of any precedence that directly relates to this. However, two thoughts occur, adding to the MMA records template a new box that is separated from the main table and clearly labelled that can have the content we want or adding the information to the infobox like "most recent result: defeated Jimbo Wales by brain lock \\ next scheduled fight: Jimbo Wales New Years Day 2015" or something that maybe compresses a little better. Just ideas. SQGibbon (talk) 14:41, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

@SQGibbon: @Chris troutman: @InedibleHulk: After pondering over this for a couple days, I am really starting to think the infobox approach seems the most logical for a "Next scheduled fight" value. It would be quickly accessible, very separate from a fighter's record table (which is the primary goal here), and could be displayed in a relatively short, three-point statement: ie. "Next fight: Alexis Davis at UFC 175 on July 5, 2014". Would everyone agree to this proposal? The only reason I might prefer an entirely separate table is that it would allow you to display some of the less-critical information, like geographical location and notes about the fight. Txaggiemichael (talk) 05:08, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Fight Records

This bullshit about going by what Sherdog says is incredibly obnoxious. If a fight took place & isn't listed on Sherdog but can be proven legitimate then it should be listed here. This site shouldn't just copy & paste all of Sherdog's errors.

If Sherdog lists a fight result as simply submission (choke) & there's information on what type of choke it was somewhere else that should be added & not undone.

Kendall Grove had a fight take place November 10, 2012 that is not listed on Sherdog. There's an article vouching the existence of this fight: http://www.bjpenn.com/just-scrap-returns-to-maui-march-15-ufc-news/ & there's actual video of this fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5hj9eB6oI

Of course, the fight isn't on Sherdog so it... never happened...? Really? That's just idiotic.

Sherdog also is incredibly inconsistent with the names of submissions. An americana & a kimura are both "keylocks," the kimura is just the reversed form. Yet Sherdog will randomly use either of the three names & commonly get it incorrect. A separate source will give the correct result but will be discarded unjustly.

D'arce/Anaconda/guillotine are also mistaken sometimes even when correctly announced on air & when I try to fix this I get the old "we go by Sherdog here." Wah!? If it's wrong, it's wrong! Same thing for Achilles lock/ankle lock/foot lock/toe hold. People don't seem to know the difference but refuse to accept the corrections.

The Can Opener is the name of a common submission used back in the old age of MMA & for some reason Sherdog will use it 15% of the time; opting to go with the generic "neck crank" more often. Every other site that covers the fight, that this submission takes place, will give it its correct name but Sherdog will not. There's tons of different "neck cranks!" The "can opener" is a specific one. Calling the Americana, Kimura, or Omoplata simply "shoulder lock" on all fights would essentially be the same thing.

I just don't see the point of using incorrect results simply because Sherdog is a big name. If I wanted Sherdog's results, I would go to Sherdog. If I want to see if Sherdog missed something, I want to be able to go here & find out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.102.148.42 (talk) 23:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The MMA project guidelines state "In the column Method, unless sources within the body text of the article state otherwise, always use the result that is available in a fighter's record at Sherdog Fight Finder...." This means that if you have reliable sources for your information and cite them properly it can be used in lieu of Sherdog. SQGibbon (talk) 16:44, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Good to hear because whenever I attempt to do this, I get scolded. It's incredibly frustrating. I have provided sources & all I get in return is "Sherdog doesn't say this..." People need to stop undoing edits simply because it's not on Sherdog. It is not helpful. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 21:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

@24.102.148.42: You've been reverted multiple times because your sources are unreliable or you've used the source improperly. I don't care to investigate your claims but I would be very careful making edits contrary to Sherdog. This WikiProject recognizes Sherdog as the trustworthy source. You may disagree with that but it's not up to you. We welcome your contributions but if your edits don't stand up to scrutiny you're gonna have a bad time. Chris Troutman (talk)

Again, complete bullshit but your reply falls completely in line of the continuous idiocy on here so I'm not surprised. If what you are putting on here is wrong, then it is wrong. If following sherdog blindly is the only reason you continue to make errors then change the goddamn rules. 06:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I mainly do it because the infobox has "MMA fight record from Sherdog". Since there's no citation on the tables, it becomes a de facto citation. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:17, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

"MMA fight record from Sherdog" Problem solved. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 06:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Linked to...nothing? Just those three words, sitting there? Sounds cool. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:13, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

As for the specific Grove vs Cisneros thing, it wasn't sanctioned. Didn't officially happen. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:24, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

According to that site, half of Grove's fights are unsanctioned. Either remove all of the "unsanctioned" fights or leave this one alone. As far as I can see, the ONLY reason it keeps getting removed is because Sherdog has made an error & apparently Wikipedia is not a collaboration of a bunch of sites but a strict copy Sherdog's faulty records. I just don't get the reasoning behind WANTING an incorrect system in place. I keep getting the "your sources are not reliable" line when in reality it just means "yours sources are not Sherdog." 24.102.148.42 (talk) 06:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I was just offering it as a reason Sherdog might not count it. Not saying they're correct or not. As long as we claim the record's from Sherdog, it's correct for us to back that claim up with Sherdog. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:13, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

Remember this is Wikipedia. I would say that anything that is supported by a reliable independent source can be posted, as long as the source is listed. Sherdog has earned a position as the de facto MMA standard, but that doesn't mean it's the only source that can be used. Papaursa (talk) 20:32, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

As long as we claim the record's from Sherdog in the infobox, the numbers should all add up in a consistent, verfiable way. Let's say Tim Means fights an actual dirty bird in some barnshow next (I hope not). We elbows the crap out of it, some yokel YouTubes a cell video, BJPenn.com links it and we add it to the table.

Now, we've got the infobox saying 20-6, but anyone counting it up will see 21. If we adjust the numbers, that's WP:SYNTH, since the chicken flick doesn't mention his overall record, and the record source doesn't mention the bird. We'd need to use an all-inclusive record listing for the infobox. Or none at all. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:18, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

I see your point, but it also gets back to what I was saying. If you claim the record's from Sherdog it should match Sherdog. However, I don't see a problem with putting things into the article (like fights or methods) that are contrary to Sherdog--as long as they're clearly documented and from a reliable source. Papaursa (talk) 03:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Should these articles exist?

I am not sure if these articles are notable and should be deleted. World Vale Tudo Championship, Xtreme Fighters Latino, Pacific Xtreme Combat, International Fighting Championships, Ironheart Crown Dwanyewest (talk) 02:57, 3 June 2014 (UTC)