Talk:Surrealism/Archive 4

The Talk:Surrealism discussion page has been archived 9 times.

• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 1 - until Sep 17 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 2 - until Sep 28 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 3 - until Oct 13 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 4 - until Nov 11 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 5 - until Jan 25 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 6 - until Aug 06 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 7 - until Sep 03 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 8 - until Sep 29 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 9 - until Mar 03 2007

If you wish to reply to something that was said in an archived comment, please copy the relevant text to the current talk page rather than editing the archives.

Topic

The topic of Talk:Surrealism is the wikipedia Surrealism article, and how we can improve it. This is not the place to copy and paste lengthy texts or engage in arguments about non-wikipedia topics. Thank you for cooperating.

Cleanup / Call for Help

This whole article is a mess. It's unorganized and full of contradictory claims. It's pathetic that something more coherent hasn't come out of the months of edits here. I'm tempted to list this on Cleanup to get some more assistance clarifying and organizing it. Any objections? Does anybody think this article doesn't need to be reorganized? It's quite frustrating how certain non-logged-in users insist on adding poorly written sentences to the end of seemingly random paragraphs. Even if these contributions weren't hopelessly POV (and they usually are), they would still need to be rewritten to approach wikipedia standards. I think an increased number of experienced editors here would be helpful. ~leif ☺ _HELO 21:16, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Standards???

I do not think Wikipedia is workable! Do not get more editors, get someone who knows what they are talking about.Standards, Haaaaaaa! If anyone can write on a topic, that's what you get: someone like Leif.

I'm inclined to note that you forgot to put a space before the word "Standards". That kind of thing is exactly what I was talking about when I complained about the low quality additions, above. Here on the talk page, I don't really care, but on the article page, that kind of typo is unacceptable and has to be fixed by someone. During one of your many previous revert wars, you continued to revert back to a paragraph you wrote that was full of typos like this, even after I had rewritten the paragraph to fix them. These are the kind of "standards" I am talking about, basic English writing standards.

And as I've said before, if you do not think wikipedia is "workable", why do you continue to pester us here? If you aren't on board for the same cause as the rest of us, ie cooperatively writing a free encyclopedia, why are you here? Judging from your edits and your comments in the archive of this talk page, I'd say you are here for the sole purpose promoting Keith Wigdor, Terrance Lindall, and your various points of view. You are not interested in cooperation, you are not interested in creating a fair and NPOV article about Surrealism, and you just stated above that you do not even believe in Wikipedia's premise. Why don't you spend your time elsewhere? ~leif ☺ _HELO 21:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Outlandish claim:

I tried to add Boyer as follows: "Daniel C. Boyer is an active spokesman for those who contend that "surrealism" does not refer to an art style, a notion which is in conflict with many scholars and curators at universities and major museums."

If you consult with the Metropolitan Museum of Art or the Guggenheim, maybe you will see that I am right. As I said, you guys are rewriting history on your terms. You need a lesson on how language evolves. First there is common usage ( a word connotes) and then the word comes to be accepted (the connotation becomes a denotation). The connotaion took place pretty quickly in the early 20th c. Now it denotes a style of art... as well as revolutionary thinking. I repeat, you are uneducated. Your ideas are not only unrevolutionary, they are just plain off the planet. You are not part of the civilized world.

Does your statement make sense in light of the fact that Boyer's self-written bio on his user page begins by saying "I am a surrealist painter"?

Obviously, Surrealism includes art, and obviously it also includes much more. I haven't heard Boyer say "surrealism does not refer to an art style" as you claimed in the article. I believe he did say, and I'm paraphrasing here, that as a movement it is much more than just an artistic movement. Assuming that that stance is what you are referring to, your statement would still be misleading, as that notion is not "in conflict" with any experts I've heard of. And of all Daniel Boyer's surrealist work, to mention him in one sentence that really only complains about your personal disagreements with him, is not acceptable. ~leif ☺ _HELO 22:00, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's fine. No quarrel. Just mention Boyer. See, I can be a nice guy. Can I get directly from Boyer the suggested induction you make about his thinking that "BOYER ACKNOWLEDGES THAT 'SURREALISM DENOTES AN ART STYLE' among other things." Daniel, my friend?

Surrealism from South Africa

Keith Wigdor used to have this link on his old website last year, http://www.museums.org.za/sam/conf/enc/law.htm This is about a surrealist, Penny Siopis, you all should check this out and read the entire article. I am trying to work out an angle to create an article on Penny and Surrealism in South Africa, especially photomontage. Also, I am doing some digging into the strong link between labor struggles and surrealism, I need to see what I can turn up.24.168.66.27 03:42, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You should contact the great Christian De Boeck *[1] a former Franciscan monk who created the Fantastic Art Centre (includes surrealists) and who has been documenting great artists like Bosch, Moreau, and the moderns Ernst Fuchs, Lindall, Marlin, Giger, Venosa and others for decades. He dropped out of sight and everyone is looking for him. He lives in South Africa.

Just read your article. Very nice indeed. The fellows writing here on surrealism could use your scholarship! I will refer your article on to interested parties in NYC.

For the benefit of the public and everyone who uses the wikipedia service to research surrealism, the article, THE TREACHERY OF IMAGES, PHOTOMONTAGE AND THE NEW SURREALISM IN SOUTH AFRICA, was written by JENNIFER A.LAW.24.168.66.27 02:18, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pansurrealism

These following styles belong to Pansurrealism they are "sub-groups"...the styles evolve out of dream states and the subconscious, autonmous re-aspecting of reality:

"Surrealism, Surreal/Conceptual, Visionary, Fantastic, Symbolism, Magic Realism, the Vienna School, Neuve Invention, Outsider, Naive, the Macabre, Grotesque, Singulier Art and Massurrealism."

If anybody cares.

More Rosemont-Infested Bias

I have a major problem with this passage from the Contents of the HISTORY Section of the Surrealism article. "and surrealist groups have also drawn on sources as seemingly diverse as Bugs Bunny, comic strips, the obscure poet Samuel Greenberg and the hobo writer and humourist T-Bone Slim." I feel that the above passage should not belong in the History Section, it should be placed later on in the article, more towards the diverse influences passage, where, FREE JAZZ(Don Cherry,etc), is mentioned. This is very misleading information anyway since it attempts to emphasize the distinctions of Bugs Bunny, comic strips, the obscure poet Samuel Greenberg and the hobo writer and humourist T-Bone Slim as relative to surrealism, while the topics are obviously bound to the sphere of appearances and illusion, mild entertainment. Daniel, please explain to me how the Chicago Group's flirtations with the above nonsense has anything to do with surrealism and why does it belong in the main article under the History section immediately following the introduction? Does Mary Ann Caws and Jennifer Mundy agree with this, "and surrealist groups have also drawn on sources as seemingly diverse as Bugs Bunny, comic strips, the obscure poet Samuel Greenberg and the hobo writer and humourist T-Bone Slim."? Daniel, when I attended the Surrealism, Desire Unbound exhibit at Museum of Modern Art two years ago, I had the time to ask people in attendance about the contributions of surrealist groups(Chicago, etc) after Breton's death and many of the answers from various people in attendance were the same. Only the Paris Surrealist Group with Jean Schuster and Jose Pierre and a few others tried to keep the flame of Breton's thought going, but everything really started to fall apart in 1969 when Jean Schuster disbanded what was left of the Paris Surrealist Group consisting of Breton's comrades and friends, what exists today as the, "Paris Surrealist Group" has me concerned. As far as anyone that I spoke to about your pals, Mr.Rosemont and his wife, many people did not know who they were. Daniel, what's the deal?24.168.66.27 02:42, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So we finally have an intelligent voice who knows a little about the history of the surealists. Sir: can you please pick up this article and get it fixed. The fellows here are merely trying to rewrite history on their terms. They are building a dream castle for themselves to live in. Has nothing to do with reality or surreality. They forgot NPOV or as we used to say "objectivity.".-- SHR