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handy hint: to keep discussions in one place, if you leave a talk message I'll answer it here, though I may put a note on your page if getting your attention seems important. However, if I leave a talk message on your page, and you respond here, I will respond on your page for consistency. Apologies if I fail to notice changes on your page, must trim my watchlist.

Answer to your question, and over-and-out

I'm dropping out of that discussion - a couple folks have too much personal "ownership" ego invested in the "intelligent design" page to acknoweldge that anyone else might have something to contribute, and I have no corresponding ego investment to make it worth expending any more effort. But you asked some good questions, so I'll give sketches of answers.

... I did come across such mind boggling stuff as In the future, we may come to see the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) as a consequence of information theory and not the other way around. and In the discrete and continuous forms, the uncertainty corresponds to the entropy of statistical mechanics and to the entropy of the second law of thermodynamics, and it is the foundation of information theory.

Yeah, neat statements, huh? The first one is close to the way I have started thinking about things, and it gives some neat insights. I'd have to spend more effort on the second to understand its context, so no comment.

...involve a "law" that prevents evolution from developing information and insists on increasing "disorder", I'd be really grateful.

I can't off top of head. But instead, I'll offer you an analogy to the way drugs are discovered. Put quanta of model cells in 1000 wells. Put 1000 compounds in the wells. Wait two days. Use a non-intelleigent machine to observe which wells have dead cells (if your're trying to find a toxin), or live cells (if you're trying to promote the cells). Then vary the compounds that did what you wanted to do, and run the same experiment on another 1000 wells of cells. Eventually you get some information (in the ordianry sense) - you know which compounds have which properties with respect to which cells, with no more intelligence required for this than your detecotr has.

OK, suppose we did it the other way - put the same compound in 1000 wells, and introduce 1000 random mutations in cells. Inject the cells into the wells. Use a totally automated detector to identify which ones survived. use those as the basis for next generation, introduce another 1000 random mutations, and repeat.

Both of these are used commercially. Both are done on a totally automated basis. Both work well. Both create information out of purely random events.

That's exactly how evolotion does it: take a bunch of organisms, expose them to some environmental influence, and breed the ones that survive. Eventually, you get information - this DNA strand works better in this environment than that DNA strand. Think about hwo two DNA strands that have the same ratios of C to G to A to T differ - purely in their information content. DNA is just an information substrate, just like magnetic domains on a disk.

Another way to look at it: if you have these five factors:

(a) characteristics that are heritable

(b) some variation in what gets inherited - sexual recombination, mutations, etc.

(c) more young born than survive to reproductive age

(d) environmental factors that have even a tiny differential effect on (c) in affecting which combinations of characteristics are even slightly more successful than others

(e) time

you HAVE to get evolution.

Why is it that the same folks that have so much faith in commerce and free markets refuse to acknowledge that the same processes work great in biology?

Best wishes. Do good work.

Thanks, fully agree. The difficulty I have is nailing down this peculiar idea that there's a "Law" in "information entropy" demanding increasing disorder, as the creationists claim when trying to claim that complexity needs ~~divine~~ supernatural intervention. The ID page has suffered a lot from ideological attacks in the past, so even benign changes are met with suspicion and have to be tactfully argued for. However the rather combative line taken was very much given credibility when the Kitzmiller verdict came out. Take care, ..dave souza, talk 00:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Peer review/Scotland

The Scotland article has just been put up for Wikipedia:Peer review. This is a crucial step in getting this article up to WP:FA status, or at least closer to it, which can only have positive effects on all of Wikipedia's Scotland-related coverage. The best way to get the most out of peer review is to monitor for any comments made and try to respond to them promptly. I hope that you may have some possibility to assist in this task? Thanks. --Mais oui! 16:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Geeza brek! ;) Will try to have a look when I've unwound and time permits, ....dave souza, talk 00:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Pinkerton special

Hey. I don't really know what incident you are referring to with the "Irish racism" person. To be honest, I haven't noticed any Pinkerton-esque tendencies in your edits, but if you say so then there probably is. I think anyone who has read anything on medieval Scottish history written before the Barrow and Duncan revolution in scholarship, and hence anything popular that hasn't been influenced by this, will have a Pinkerton-esque outlook, and indeed Pinkertonism has left many legacies which still haven't been overcome. An article by Hammond in the Scottish Historical Review this year attacks the legacy of the Goth versus Gael debate in modern scholarship (if you need a copy of the article, I can email it to you). Anyways, yes, Caithness and Sutherland, and indeed, the Solway coast of Galloway, were heavily settled by Vikings. Yes, Viking scholarship has ignored Scotland (the main reason for this is that Scottish material in this period is relatively tough to study), the recent work Viking Empires devotes a large amount of attention to Scotland and Ireland, redressing the balance somewhat. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, reply on your talk. ..dave souza, talk 00:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Banana Block

That's interesting, I never heard that in 20 years living in Leith. I must try to develop the article beyond a stub but there seems to be very little information on the net about the Banana Flats/Banana Block. Even when it was built would be interesting to know. --Guinnog 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Afraid it's only my memory, but I'm sure it was the banana block when I did the Christmas post around there, pre 1970. I think the block was built in the mid to late 60s, roughly about the same time as Leith Fort flats were build on what had been a rather nice parade ground with sort of Georgian buildings, all hidden behind a high stone wall, with large gates and cannons with a cannonball blocking the muzzle half buried upright to protect the corners of the gateway. My aunt still lives in a top floor flat in a Portland Street tenement which overlooked the side wall, then had the view changed to the shoddy flats and "patio houses" that already had huge dampness problems when I was on the post as a student. Not sure where to look, but there'll be a record of these things somewhere. ..dave souza, talk 00:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much. I'll give the council a phone tomorrow, make them earn their council tax! I did the Christmas post myself as a student in the early 80s. Hard bloody work, but the guys were profesionals. Not sure it'd be the same today... --Guinnog 00:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Took me a while but I managed. See what you think; I've updated Cables Wynd House --Guinnog 14:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good stuff. I couldn't resist googling to find a source for "banana block", and have changed the other links to references for "banana flats" as that seemed to be their main purpose. Do you have a source for the other information that could be shown as a reference? "External links" would then be changed to "Notes" if it's not an online source. I've also tried to make it clearer that the ground floor flats have their own front doors: trust that's what you meant, my memory doesn't stretch to that. All good fun. ..dave souza, talk 18:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The source was the guy from the council I spoke to on the phone today. As that is unverifiable, I suppose I would have to accept its removal if challenged. Thanks for your good work. --Guinnog 19:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fair enough to me. Thanks for developing the article, ...dave souza, talk 06:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request for arbitration

Hi Dave. I have requested help from both you and Steinsky to arbitrate a dispute at The Root of All Evil? I would be most grateful if you would cast your eye over the "Tidy up" section on the talk page, and then let me know whether or not you are willing to help. With thanks. Laurence Boyce 21:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will be glad to try to help, though things are a bit hectic so can't promise lots of instant action. Have looked over the talk section, guess the next thing is to review the article and add my own thoughts to that section, in the hope of keeping a useful discussion going. Let me know if you've something else in mind: think I'm a bit too involved to be an arbiter. (Couldn't resist putting in that guid Scots word) ..dave souza, talk 21:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dave. Informal arbitration is exactly what I want – I don't see much point in somebody being involved who doesn't know the documentary. I really need you to step in because it's starting to look to all the world like I'm trying to own the article which won't do. Maybe start a new talk section – it might be as well to draw a line under the biggest "tidy up" in history! But you decide. Thanks again. Laurence Boyce 13:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland

Pre-script: we are currently undergoing peer review, see: Wikipedia:Peer review/Scotland.

I am beginning to think that the Scottish Wikipedians' notice board is not the best vehicle for pushing up the quality of the Scotland article (we ought to try to get it to WP:FA, in order to get into Wikipedia:Version 0.5, or, failing that, Wikipedia:Version 1.0), and the other key Scottish articles. It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that we really ought to start up the long-mooted WikiProject Scotland.

Most of the stuff at the notice board (at least on the bottom half) is actually WikiProject material anyway, and the Talk page is really being used as a WikiProject talk already! The notice board should be just that: for bunging up brief notices and signposts. I am thinking of launching a Wikiproject and correspondingly radically clearing out, and chopping down, the noticeboard (a re-launch if you like). The Scotland Portal concept is fine (but currently mediocre/undynamic content), but in stasis: it needs a good kick up the jacksie.

For comparison, have a look at:

And, if you are at a loose end, have a look at:

Thoughts? Please express them here. --Mais oui! 18:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your particular bias

Dave, you recently removed an edit I made to The Origin of Species page. However, according to WP:NPOV and WP:V they should have been left as-is.

It is clear that my edits were not vandalism and actually were much more of a neutral point of view than the original offering.

It is unfortunate that your extreme bias in this matter has caused you to threaten me from being blocked from further editing. Maybe you should take a look at the WP:NPOV again.

Thank you, Erich168

My bias is towards supporting these policies. Repeatedly adding misinformation is vandalism: if you want to invert statements in articles you should meet WP:V in showing Wikipedia:Reliable sources for your position, and in this instance comply fully with the particular requirements relating to science. Your bias appears to be towards pseudoscience, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ covers that in more detail. These are points you can raise on talk pages, but simply making unjustified changes is not the way to proceed. ..dave souza, talk 07:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dave, I would ask you again to please review the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy. After reading this, you will see that the original contribution was opposed to the NPOV policy. Your constant edits fall under the vandalism category.

First, here is an original quote: Although the ideas presented in it are supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and are widely accepted by scientists today, they are still, in some parts of the world, highly controversial, particularly among non-scientists who perceive them to contradict their own view of the facts and various religious texts (see Creation-evolution controversy).

1. Show me the “overwhelming scientific eveidence”. I can provide “overwhelming” scientific evidence for creationism. There is some evidence. But, it is NOT overwhelming.
2. The statement “particularly among non-scientists who perceive them to contradict their own view of the facts” is obviously meant to persuade the reader that creationism is not based on any scientific evidence (again, this is opposed the the Wikipedia NPOV)

Second, the statement that Modern DNA evidence is consistent with the idea that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times is also a biased statement (not based on fact). The DNA contribution on Wikipedia does not even suggest that this statement is valid. At best, modern DNA evidence in inconclusive. That is why I made that statement. Thank you, Erich

Fastsission & Dave,

I appreciate the discussions regarding the contributions to The Origin of Species. Fastfission, you stated that my efforts to present statements with a more neutral point of view would be “a waste of my time”. Well, after reading all the past discussions, posts, edits, & reverts on this subject, I have concluded that you are absolutley correct. Your extreme bias in this subject makes it a waste of time to discuss. It also makes it a waste of time to attempt to improve the article when neither of you are interested in NPOV.

It appears that you both have an agenda to promote this theory as scientific law. It also appears that allowing biased comments are fine as long as they agree with your opinion. Thanks for your time. I will no longer attempt to contribute to this subject.

Erich, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:The Origin of Species#Opinion / NPOV / Bias..dave souza, talk 08:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Root of All Evil?

I’m contacting you because I can see from the discussion page of the root of all evil article you’ve been involved with the article and more importantly you’ve been in contact with Laurence Boyce. Laurence claims that I’ve started an “edit war” over the article. What this really means is that he doesn’t like the way I want to lay out the Colorado Springs section. I’m assuming that you’ve seen the programme yourself. If you have you’ll know that in the Colorado Springs section Haggard tells Dawkins that his grandchildren might listen to a tape of him saying “the Earth is 4.5 billion years old” and then laugh at him. If you read Laurence’s version you’ll see it is a tad misleading:

“Dawkins asks if he accepts [sciences] clear demonstration that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. Haggard implies that this age is only accepted by some of scientific community and might seem laughable to future generations, at which an irked Dawkins asks if he wants to take a bet.”

This is designed to purposely misrepresent what Dawkins said. He was “irked” at Haggard telling him his grandchildren would laugh at him, not future generations! My version of that part of the article was reverted again this morning for the umpteenth time. It seems like no other administrators or users are bothered about this but I’ve lost track of how many times he’s reverted my edits. I’m being made to feel like I’m not allowed to edit the page without his permission first. Here are some of the things he said to me:

“George, I've reverted your latest bunch of edits plus an anon edit because they're rubbish!”

“I have reverted your edits again George; they're no better in my view. Please don't edit. Talk.”

I beg your pardon? Don’t edit; talk? Does he have the right to tell me not to edit? To tell me that my work is rubbish? Will you please have a talk with Laurence about this? It’s getting beyond a joke. If you check out the other posts and complaints on his user page they mostly seemed to be linked to Dawkins and his work. Why do you believe this is? Some kind of personal vendetta against Dawkins using Wikipedia as the host perhaps? Miller 12:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for raising this discussion, unfortunately you've misunderstood what I've done. Laurence did contact me, I looked over the sections you two have been discussing, reviewed the Colorado Springs transcript and the second programme and made edits that to me more closely reflected the programme, taking points either of you had made that seemed to meet that aim. The section you cite above is my work, not Laurence's, and future generations seemed to me to be a way of expressing the sentiment without getting into the detail: obviously you find a nuance in it that I don't, so I'll rethink that. However, you've reverted it to Haggard doesn't accept that this is true; he says the this is merely an "opinion" within the scientific community, which misquotes Haggard. I'm not interested in previous exchanges between you two, you've a right to edit Wikipedia, but not to insist on reverting other people's contributions to inaccurate or misleading previous versions of your own. You seem to have a problem with Dawkins saying 5,000 years, which he clearly does in the recording I made of the programme: where are you getting 10,000 years from? Another point is the validity of the moon having come from the earth: it's an interesting point which I think should be mentioned, but in a footnote to make it clear that it's not said in the programme, and since NASA don't suggest it came from the ocean it's not quite the same as the story Hawkes tells. In the programme this is less significant than Dawkins finding the idea of a "law-giver" being needed to stop dreadful behaviour a warped morality. I'll go through these again and will be glad to discuss points, but won't welcome unexplained mass reversions. ...dave souza, talk 20:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all please don’t accuse me of “reverting other people's contributions to inaccurate or misleading previous versions of your own”. I’m doing my damnedest to do the exact opposite. Rather than argue about what Haggard and Dawkins did or didn’t say I thought I’d watch the episode again and record a short transcript of what they both said to the word:

Dawkins: The scientific method clearly demonstrates that the world is 4.5 billion years old. I mean, do you accept that?

Haggard: Yeah, you see what you’re doing is you are accepting some of the views that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community as fact; where in fact your grandchildren might listen to the tape of you saying that and laugh at you.

Dawkins: You wanna bet?

It seems to me that he is irked about Haggard’s implication that Dawkins own grandchildren might laugh at the scientifically proven age of the Earth. Haggard never says anything about future generations. I will put to you, with all respect, my belief that a passage such as “Haggard implies that this age is only accepted by some of scientific community and might seem laughable to future generations, at which an irked Dawkins asks if he wants to take a bet” is either an accidental or purposeful attempt to misrepresent what was said, regardless of who wrote it. Please change it to mention what Haggard said about Dawkins grandchildren, not about future generations.

I believe that “view” and “opinion” are synonyms (kind of like Ann Coulter believes “create” and “invent” are synonyms!) so I wasn’t purposely misquoting Haggard. Since that was indeed an accidental misquote I suggest that it left out.

When Adrian Hawkes spoke about the moon coming from the ocean I can say with some degree of certainty that he was not taught exactly that at school. The theory that the moon was like a drop of water coming of a spinning shaft due to centrifugal force required that the Earth be molten so the ocean would not come into it. The “big splash” theory of the origin of the moon is the most popular today and is slightly different to that one so you might be right about removing the NASA link.

I watched the section with Rabbi Gluck again and he did indeed say 5000 yeas, not 10,000 years. I was thinking of the Colorado Springs section when Dawkins said something along the lines of “half the country believes the universe is less than 10,000” years old. Sorry about that mistake. Miller 23:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to have your comments, I've tried revising the relevant parts to avoid these problems. Other editors have made some changes, and they appear satisfactory: please let me know if there are any points that still seem problematic. Your transcript of the age of the world exchange looks right to me: I took this as a general point, but your interpretation is just as valid: the current version in the article doesn't go into this particular detail. I've a dim recollection of an old idea that the moon had been knocked off by an impact, leaving a dip filled by an ocean, and though this is long superseded by plate tectonics it may be what Hawkes was remembering. The link seemed interesting enough to me to go in a footnote, but one other editor disagreed: I've restored it, but this can be reviewed. Dawkin's age of earth comment at the ending of the Gluck section was a pretty weak response, and related to an earlier unanswered question we'd not mentioned. I've left out that point, but added a footnote explaining meanings of "theory" and "law" and referred to Dawkins's "but that's in a very technical sense" comment. Hope you're contend with the way things are developing, your advice is welcome. ..dave souza, talk 09:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve made a few more edits to the Colorado Springs article now including the fact that Haggard mentions Dawkins grandchildren. I’ve done my best not to violate the NPOV rule and I tried my best not to portray Dawkins or Haggard in a positive or negative light. I just wanted to put in all the parts of the meeting that were relevant. I’m sure the meeting was much longer than is shown in the program and Dawkins edited it in such a way as to only show the most important parts. What do you think? Miller 15:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve read the sectarian education section again and I would say that it’s very well laid out and in my opinion not in need of further revision. Nice work. Miller 15:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Generally I'm content with the description, though perhaps the section's getting a bit long. The editing comment rings true, except it would be the producers editing it for maximum interest to the TV audience rather than Dawkins getting to control it. The sentences towards the end of the Haggard interview are problematic for me: the programme transcript has this:

Dawkins: Really. You obviously know nothing about the subject of evolution.

Haggard: Or maybe you haven't me the people I have. [laughs] But you see. You do understand. You do understand that this issue right here of intellectual arrogance is the reason why people like you have a difficult problem with people of faith. I don't communicate an air of superiority over the people, because I know so much more. And if you'd only read the books I know, and if you only knew the scientists I knew, then you would be great like me. Well. Sir. There could be many things that you know well. There are other things that you don't know well. As you age, you'll find yourself wrong on some things, right on some other things. But please – in the process of it – don't be arrogant.

Your summary includes Haggard claims that some evolutionists he’s met have said that; although he fails to cite the people in question. The meeting draws to a close with Haggard claiming that an overdependence on science and a disregard for faith is “intellectual arrogance”: this makes points that don't seem to me to be in the original, so I've tried rephrasing it as implies that some (unnamed) evolutionists he’s met have said that and claiming that expressing knowledge of books and scientists forms “intellectual arrogance”. Hopefully that's closer to the original. ..dave souza, talk 10:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that single quote is the best (and funniest) part of the whole series. A 65 year old Oxford professor being told by a 50 year old redneck that he’ll learn how he’s wrong with regard to science as he “ages”! And that point where he says well siiiiiiir and then goes to tell Dawkins not to be arrogant! Classic! What is meant be “intellectual arrogance” anyway? If someone has took it upon them to learn a multitude of scientific facts I don’t believe that makes them arrogant. Oh well. Miller 11:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That and someone who preaches adherence to a book parodying "if you'd only read the books I know... then you would be great like me." Bit complex to get into a précis, have edited the article, and have added this transcript to Talk:The Root of All Evil? so all can consider the best summary of this weird statement. Thanks, ..dave souza, talk 11:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Weird? Fucking hilarious more like! Miller 22:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SLT

Ta. --Mais oui! 17:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, some of the old legal training still lingers. ..dave souza, talk 17:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Orkney Portal

A Portal I created recently, Portal:Orkney, has been nominated for deletion. If you wish to take part in the discussion please contribute at: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion#Portal:Orkney

Thanks, Mallimak 18:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked at this, I think it should be kept in hopes of future improvement. However at present both the portal and notice board suffer from the kind of attitude I've deplored elsewhere. There's clear evidence of Orcadian identity, but any resentment of neighbours should be impartially explained in detailed articles and not allowed to colour articles, particularly this introduction page. A lot of work is needed on improving Orkney articles: the History of the Orkney Islands has a much poorer prehistory coverage of the area than Prehistoric Scotland - Farmers and monument builders does: how about using that as a basis for an expanded article about ancient Orkney? Also, anyone got better photos of Knap of Howar, preferably with someone in the picture to give a sense of scale? I've some slides in the attic somewhere, but don't have a slide scanner or, for that matter, much time. Good luck with developing Orkney's coverage. ..dave souza, talk 17:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I GIVE UP!

The Orkney Portal has been deleted.

I have tried to contribute articles on topics about which I have knowledge, such as Orkney, but the articles have been subjected to constant destructive editing, and I have been subjected to repeated harassment, mainly by Mais oui!, that I see no point in continuing.

I have now joined the ever-growing category of disillusioned Wikipedians. Mallimak 01:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you feel that way. From a look at the background you do seem to have trodden on several toes and been found likely to have engaged in improper practice by someone much more experienced and versed in these problems than myself. It's appreciated that it can be a bit of a battle at times, but my experience is that the best way to achieve well based improvements in articles is to be determined in carefully following the spirit and letter of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Perhaps best to take a break and relax a bit, then if you can help with fully sourced improvements that'll be terrific. ..dave souza, talk 18:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dealing with vandals

Dave, Thanks for your note. I had a look and 'Test 4lm' would seem to be the most appropriate for what I had in mind-dealing with obvious and stupid corruption where 'graded warnings' and 'thank yous' are simply not appropriate. If you look at some of the recent corruption of the Cromwell page you will see what I mean. It's totally infantile, and I use this term advisedly because-from the words and expressions used-I cannot imagine it is anyone other than a child-or a very immature adult. Rcpaterson 03:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Afraid so, response on your user page. ..dave souza, talk 22:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lowlander

That's strange, because there is no Highland accent as compared with a Lowland accent. Ross accents, for instance, sound similar to south-eastern accents for some reason than they do to Argyll accents, which in turn sound more like Glasgow accents, which in turn sound nothing like south-eastern accents. Seems to me your upbringing was no more Lowland than you decided to make it. Did you read much Stevenson and Scott? Leith, btw, is the name of the river. Inverleith, i.e. "Mouth of the river Leith", is the earliest name for the settlement. "Inver" is umabiguously Gaelic, though it is obviously possible that there was an earlier "Aberleith", "Inver" names are easily coined, witness for instance the mixed Latin-Gaelic foundation charter of the burgh of Ayr.[1] The Inver part was dropped, and hence the river needed a dab, hence "Water of Leith". The same phenomenon happened to Invernairn (Nairn) , Inverayr (Ayr) and Inverirvine (Irvine). Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Entropy

I've tried and tried and tried to get your point across [2], but, like Jagger, I can't get no satisfaction. If science teachers knew enough about entropy and felt the need to use another word as a descriptor they could at least pick "reorder" instead of "disorder" or "chaos". Aaarrgggh. Jim62sch 13:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How did you know the Stones played Glasgow last night, reminding me to pop into my local record shop and pick up a copy of Goat's Head Soup in memory of seeing them when they brought that out? Well I actually went in for It's Only Rock and Roll, but that never seems to be in stock. Will probably end up getting it online sometime. Anyway, glad to see that edit hasn't been reverted so far. It actually came about as I was idly browsing /. and in this rather scary article found the odd argument that "Machinery errors are caused by entropy [wikipedia.org]" so had a look and found the old nonsense in the intro. Article seems ok now as far as I can tell. Does the 2nd law imply a tendency of Wikipedia towards nonsense unless constantly resisted?, ...dave souza, talk 17:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scotland in the Late Middle Ages

Dave, I must ask for your help for one last time. I would like to nominate Scotland in the Late Middle Ages for deletion. All the work is mine, so I think my request is justified. I would be grateful if you could let me know how to go about this, or if you would submit it yourself. Many thanks for all your past advice and assistance. Regards, Rcpaterson 00:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 210: / Line 210: @@
 I've tried and tried and tried to get your point across [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Entropy&diff=71969178&oldid=71844119], but, like Jagger, I can't get no satisfaction.  If science teachers knew enough about entropy and felt the need to use another word as a descriptor they could at least pick "reorder" instead of "disorder" or "chaos". Aaarrgggh. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 13:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 :How did you know the Stones played Glasgow last night, reminding me to pop into my local record shop and pick up a copy of ''Goat's Head Soup'' in memory of seeing them when they brought that out? Well I actually went in for ''It's Only Rock and Roll'', but that never seems to be in stock. Will probably end up getting it online sometime. Anyway, glad to see that edit hasn't been reverted so far. It actually came about as I was idly browsing /. and in [http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/171252 this rather scary article] found the odd argument that "Machinery errors are caused by entropy [wikipedia.org]" so had a look and found the old nonsense in the intro. Article seems ok now as far as I can tell. Does the 2nd law imply a tendency of Wikipedia towards nonsense unless constantly resisted?, ...[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 17:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
+== Scotland in the Late Middle Ages ==
+Dave, I must ask for your help for one last time.  I would like to nominate [[Scotland in the Late Middle Ages]] for deletion.  All the work is mine, so I think my request is justified.  I would be grateful if you could let me know how to go about this, or if you would submit it yourself.  Many thanks for all your past advice and assistance. Regards,
+[[User:Rcpaterson|Rcpaterson]] 00:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)