Template talk:Ethnic slurs

Chinese, Japanese, non-Japanese

I removed these qualifiers, as I was confused about what they were referring to. For example, the qualifier "Chinese" just appears once, but there are many articles about ethnic slurs for Chinese people. Also sangokujin is qualified with "non-Japanese", but this would seem to be controversial, as the term itself is used to distance "mainland" Japanese people from those of Japanese ancestry who have settled elsewhere. I wouldn't mind putting the qualifiers back in if we can find a good way to avoid this kind of thing. All the best. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 00:44, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I removed "Celestial" also, as it was brought to my attention that it is not necessarily a derogatory name. --Funandtrvl (talk) 04:24, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Russians

Russians are not Asians. At least, not more than Poles. --188.93.211.210 (talk) 07:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Get a map. --91.10.13.118 (talk) 10:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The fact that most of the Russian Federation is located in Asia does not make Russians any more Asian than Poles, who are related to them. Also, bohunk and khokhol are terms for Ukrainians, not Russians. It seems like an ironic joke that a template on ethnic slurs implies that Russians are Asians and Ukrainians are in fact Russians. 80.252.48.236 (talk) 16:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

One is Asian if their ancestral homeland is located in Asia. For Russians, I understand it is complex. I just went with Asia because most of Russia is located there.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:26, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Useless Template Box

I only checked the German entries, and for them this box is almost useless:

• Three entries point to the same article (List of terms used for Germans)
• One points to a different generic article (List of ethnic slurs)
• One points to an article about a historic topic (Nazi), no mention of the slur.
• One points to an article about an Irish band (Squarehead)
• A single one points to Kraut, which is the way it works for any other template box

So useless almost without exception. Worse, I don't see a way how it can be fixed: Should there be an entry for all terms, all pointing to List of terms used for Germans? All pointing to List of ethnic slurs? Both would make this template box completely redundant. Individual articles for all terms? WP:NOT#DICTIONARY. I don't see a way that the situation could be different for other ethnicities.

This box should be replaced with a link to List of ethnic slurs (ie. deleted), or at least replaced with a much shorter box pointing to List of terms used for Germans-style articles. --91.10.13.118 (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with you. Is it necessary to follow Wikipedia:Templates for discussion procedure?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is. Angr (talk) 07:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Question

I noticed Hispanics were listed under the "Europeans" section of this template. While I'm not educated in anthropology or any other kind of cultural studies, I'm fairly sure "Hispanic" denotes a person of Latin American origin (especially seeing as "Spaniards" is listed as a separate entity on the template). Nevertheless, the terms listed under the Hispanic column are all in reference to Latin Americans. Would it be a good idea to move this to its own section? felt_friend 06:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Jews

I have removed Jews from "White people" (assuming this means "Europeans", because otherwise Arabs would be included here as well) and placed them under "Asian" for the following reasons.

1. Jews are a Middle Eastern diaspora with ethnic/cultural roots in the Levant, not Europe. Their presence in Europe is the result of immigration and/or exile from their original country, whereas the rest of the groups on that list (save for Hispanics, who really don't belong on there either) are all indigenous European nationalities, born and forged within Europe. Obviously, there is no comparison, and all of these arguments about "how long ago" it was are ultimately irrelevant, since Jewish ethnic identity has remained intact to this day.

2. Gypsies spent many centuries in Europe as well, but they are listed under South Asian. The same should be done for Jews, no? For consistency's sake?

3. Last, but not least, not all Jews are Ashkenazi. Many Jews, including my own family, have never set foot in Europe, but all Jews (or at least the overwhelming majority of us) trace our roots to Israel.

Overall, I see no valid reason to place Jews under White People without doing the same for Gypsies and Arabs.2601:84:4502:61EA:547A:83AE:26CC:7052 (talk) 04:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

In response to the editor who reverted me, most if not all of the anti-Asian slurs on that template were invented by Westerners and Europeans, so that argument falls flat as well. Also, accusations of killing Christ are not endemic to the West, as there are millions all over the world who believe the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death.2601:84:4502:61EA:F4EB:98A1:2590:F045 (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Ashkenazi Jews are European (and white), not Asian and most of the slurs are European. If you want to create a separate category, fine, but saying Jews (particularly Ashkenazinm) are all Asian is simply incorrect. Mizrachi Jews are Asian/North African but Ashkenazim are not. Electoralist (talk) 04:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Incidentally, Hungarians and Finns originally migrated from Cental Asia (see Magyar tribes) so by your argument they should be classified as Asian rather than White. Electoralist (talk) 04:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Ashkenazim are Jews, an Asian ethnic group (Jew = Judean; Judea is nowhere near Europe). The fact that they spent the past 1,500+ years in Europe doesn't suddenly erase that. Am I a Native American simply because some of my ancestors lived here for several hundred years? No. Living somewhere is not the same as being indigenous to it.

Hungarians and Finns are not from Central Asia. They were from Western Russia, i.e. the Urals. The Magyars in particular emerged BETWEEN the Volga River (which is even further West) and the Ural Mountains. The majority of Finns are Baltic and Swedish, save for the Sami who originate in the Laplands, which is divided between Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Russia. Moreover, all of these groups forged their national/ethnic identities in Europe (whereas Ashkenazim in general had always identified with the Jews/Israelites of the Levant; Ashkenazi is a regional designation and diaspora subgroup, not an ethnic identity in itself), and descend primarily from indigenous inhabitants of their respective countries (Ashkenazim, by and large, do not). It's not comparable.

Lastly, the category says "Jews", not "Ashkenazim" (not that it would make any difference).2601:84:4502:61EA:F9CC:B932:48BE:625A (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Summary:

Anyone who actually thinks Jews are white and Arabs are somehow not has no idea what they are talking about - they don't know geography, history, linguistics, and culture.

1) geography: Jewish genetics can be traced to the Levant. Period. Studies have almost entirely shown this. Even ashkenazim came from the Middle East originally.

2)as such, our culture is very distinct.

3) our language, Hebrew, is linguistically similar to Arabic. Even Yiddish, the Ashkenazi language, uses Hebrew letters and some Hebrew words.

4) history and archaeology: evidence of the Jewish attachment to Israel that we've carried with us everywhere we went

We are technically west Asian. We are next door neighbors to the Arabs who are indigenous to the Hejaz peninsula and the cultural similarities show. Any denial of this reflects a very poor understanding of Judaism and Jewish culture, and if you are a Jew it means your upbringing was not as strong as you may think.

I believe that if Arabs are not white, Jews cannot be white either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexandraMichelleMarkus (talk • contribs) 18:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Moreover, if the category is "White people", that would include Arabs as well.2601:84:4502:61EA:F9CC:B932:48BE:625A (talk) 18:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Jews are not "white," they are a Diasporic, Semitic (Afro-Asiatic, Southwest Asian, etc.), Ethnocultural/Ethnoreligious, People of Color. So I am okay for Jews (and Arabs) to be listed under "Black" or "Asian" in the template — depending where you consider the Middle East. Jeffgr9 (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Ashkenazi Jews are certainly as white as all the other groups listed under "white". But if you're talking about all Jews you can't claim Ethiopian Jews and other African Jews are Asian. Electoralist (talk) 02:18, 2 July 2016 (UTC).

The essential issue here is that Jews as a whole are not an ethnic or cultural group but a religious group so Jews should not be listed under ethnic groups but under religious groups. The template is supposed to include both. Electoralist (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Jews officially self-define as a nation and tribe, not a religious group. A very large number of Jews are secular or atheist, for example. Even Jews who belong to other faiths are considered Jewish under Halakhah (our laws). Moreover, as mentioned above, the overwhelming majority of us are related to each other, and trace our ethnic/ancestral roots to the Levant. A Jew in Poland has more in common with a Jew in Iraq (not that there are any Jews left in Iraq) than he does with an indigenous white Pole. There's a reason we call ourselves "the nation of Israel". 2601:84:4502:61EA:44DA:81B3:CC2E:6B09 (talk) 05:17, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

"Ashkenazi Jews are certainly as white as all the other groups listed under "white"."

But they're not. That's the entire point. They're definitely less white/European than Germans, British, Poles, and Italians, and about as white/European as Gypsies and Arabs. African Jews are definitely more mixed than, say....Ashkenazim, but they have Israelite descent just like the rest of us.2601:84:4502:61EA:44DA:81B3:CC2E:6B09 (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

"Officially"? According to whom? Not according to any rabbi. Sorry but an ethnic Swede or sub-Saharan African who has an Orthodox Jewish conversion doesn't suddenly become Asian. Electoralist (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

That's how we've identified for millennia. It was never exclusively (or even primarily) about religion or faith, at any point in history.

Also, converts have been exceedingly rare for almost 2000 years, and there are many other indigenous tribes (including many Native North American ones) who adopt outsiders all the time. Does this suddenly make the majority of Indians "White European"? Obviously not.2601:84:4502:61EA:952A:D7E8:EB27:811B (talk) 13:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Also, you can't just keep reverting over and over again when there are at least 3 others who disagree with you. Please stop. Obtain consensus here first.2601:84:4502:61EA:952A:D7E8:EB27:811B (talk) 13:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

"That's how we've identified for millennia." That's simply not true. Jews identified as a religion for millenia. Ask a rabbi. In fact, it was the "scientific" racism of the late 19th and early 20th century that invented the concept that Jews are a race or ethnicity rather than a religion and Hitler who popularised that concept. Electoralist (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

See, for example:

" The Mesilas Yesharim, a seminal work in Jewish philosophy, has a chapter called "The Obligations of the Human in This World." He does not mention race or ethnicity even once in the entire chapter.

The fact is that as Jews, whether one is descended by maternal lineage from those who stood at Mount Sinai and accepted the Torah from Hashem, or whether one is a proper, full convert, or whether one is maternally descended from a proper, full convert, we are required to fulfill the Commandments of the Torah to the best of our abilities, and thus achieve self-actualization, holiness, and closeness to Hashem.

Words like "ethnicity," "religion," or even "race" are completely irrelevant to our obligations in this life. That's not the path to pursue. What is important is each individual's personal relationship with Hashem, and our relationship with Hashem as a People, as well as our relationships with our communities (roughly in that order).

” — http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/race.html

Essentially, it's a matter of contention. Rabbis, for the most part (particularly prior to the mid-20th century), say Judaism is a religion full stop. Secularists may argue differently. Given that, at the very least, whether or not Judaism is an ethnicity is a contested concept, along with which ethnicity (or which several ethnicities), it makes more sense to simply list Jews as a separate category. Electoralist (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it is how we've identified for millennia. It is an integral part of Halakhah. We've always been the *nation* of Israel, the twelve tribes, etc. "Ask a rabbi" is a poor response, especially considering most of them (excluding Reform rabbis, but even they have softened their stance over the years; in addition to NK/Satmarim who are fringe extremist groups at best) would agree with me. Moreover, I've never heard of any religion that puts this much emphasis on descent, or considers atheists and practitioners of other faiths as one of their own.

Also, that source seems to be a blog or some other independent website. Not suitable 2601:84:4502:61EA:488D:8712:A339:2597 (talk) 22:24, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, you're wrong, especially re halakha and moreover your only source is your own assertion. No consensus for the recent template change that Jews are Asian. Electoralist (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Your only source so far is yourself premised on being Jewish. Well,I'm Jewish too so not sure where that leaves your argument.209.171.88.77 (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2016 (UTC)