Talk:Újlaki family

Name

The following list shows that the present title of the article ("Újlaki family") is fully in line with WP:Name: [1]. Borsoka (talk) 13:23, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

The problem with what you just linked is the fact we cannot discern what actually refers to this specific noble family and what is generic mention of Ujlaki (which btw is still a relatively common surname in Hungary). Do not move the page again until it is fully discussed and/or we have WP:3O. Shokatz (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

And BTW the proper way to move/rename a page is to request a WP:RM, not moving it on your own based on your personal estimates and whatnot. Shokatz (talk) 18:35, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Please try to read the realiable sources offered to you before making unilateral actions. Among others, the following books from the list clearly refer to this family: (1) The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology; (2) Nobility, Land and Service in Medieval Hungary; (3) John Hunyadi: Defender of Christendom; (4) Millennium in Central Europe: a history of Hungary (5) Castle and Society in Medieval Hungary (1000-1437) (6) The Architecture of Historic Hungary. Would you list the books which refer to the family as "House of Ilok" before moving the article? Borsoka (talk) 03:07, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Mate there are no sources here, you listed NOTHING. Before you actually start moving the page you should actually make a list of a valid sources and preferably start a WP:RfM, what you just did here is nothing but POV pushing edit warring...and what is worse you duped an administrator into protecting this page with the edit you are pushing. Look at the article now...the article title says one thing, the article itself refers to the family in other variants of the name. You reducing this article (to a neutral observer) to a meaningless confusing jibberish. Shokatz (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

To avoid edit war, I guess a move request would be an appropriate and useful method where arguments can be discussed. --Norden1990 (talk) 04:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I initiated a move protection ([2]) about an hour ago. While the article is protected, editor Shokatz will have time to find reliable sources which verify his proposed move. He has so far only moved the page, without referring to a single book or article published in English. Borsoka (talk) 04:11, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually I don't need to find anything. The burden of proof is on you, as it is you who is trying to move this article. Shokatz (talk) 11:28, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes. That is why I listed reliable sources published in Englush which use the form "Újlaki family". Please read the list above. Could you provide a list to verify the use if the form "House of Ilok"? Borsoka (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Posting a Google link is not "listing reliable sources". Second, even if we take it for granted there was absolutely no discussion about this before you actually did it. And third, the proper way to move a page is to request a WP:RfM. Shokatz (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

If my understanding is correct, your above remarks mean that you cannot refer to reliable sources which use the form "House of Ilok". Without such a list, there is no point in continuing the debate, as per WP:Name and WP:NOR. Borsoka (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 22 May 2017

House of Ilok → Újlaki family – The present name cannot be verified based on reliable sources. On the other hand a number of academic works published in English support the proposed name. For instance, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology ([3]), Nobility, Land and Service in Medieval Hungary ([4]), John Hunyadi: Defender of Christendom ([5]), and Millennium in Central Europe: a history of Hungary ([6]) use the "Újlaki family" form. Borsoka (talk) 16:06, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Try searching for combinations like Ilok family, Iločki family, Ilok noble house, Iločki nobles... there are a lot of sources that use such names. However, there are also sources that use the Hungarian name. The names used in contemporary charters are, among others, "Wylak" and "de Illoch". I think that there is no English version of the name. Tzowu (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

The alleged versions "Ilok family" and "Ilocki nobles" cannot be verified (please checque your above lists). The version "Iločki family" is only mentioned in Fodor's Croatia: with a Side Trip to Montenegro - I think a travel guide could hardly be regarded as a reliable source. The version "Ilok noble house" is only mentioned in Breath on the Mirror: Mythic Voices & Visions of the Living Maya, a book dedicated to the Maya myths in Guatemala (the further books write about buildings). On the other hand, there are lots of books which use the form "Újlaki family" ([7]) or refer to the most notable member of the family as Nicholas Újlaki ([8]). Please also note that not only Hungarian authors use the "Újlaki" form. For instance, The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45 was written by the British professor, Colin Imber ([9]), The Holy Wars of King Wladislas and Sultan Murad: The Ottoman-Christian Conflict from 1438-1444 by John Jefferson [[10]), and John Hunyadi: Defender of Christendom by the Romanian historian Camil Mureşanu. Furthermore, The New Cambridge Medieval History: Volume 7, C.1415-c.1500 was published by the Cambridge University Press ([11]), The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology by the Oxford University Press ([12]). All these data suggest that the "Újlaki" is the preferred form in academic works published in English independently of the nationality of the author. Borsoka (talk) 17:19, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

To actually come to a conclusion what name should be used one must take into consideration that both names (Croatian and Hungarian) version would be quite hard to validate as they can both refer to other things. Also referring to other encyclopedia for naming purposes is IMO undesirable as encyclopedias belong under WP:TERTIARY in general. The other issue is neutrality. However with all that in mind whatever name is actually prevalent in English language should be used here as well. Personally I would suggest asking for a WP:3O and see where we go from there. Shokatz (talk) 18:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Do you think The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45, The Holy Wars of King Wladislas and Sultan Murad: The Ottoman-Christian Conflict from 1438-1444, John Hunyadi: Defender of Christendom and The New Cambridge Medieval History: Volume 7, C.1415-c.1500 are encyclopedias? Do you think the British and Romanian historians do not use the most common English version of the family name? Borsoka (talk) 18:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Depends who is the author of those books, if they are in English - that doesn't mean they are in fact written by English authors...which I see there are several cases where the books are in English and the authors are in fact Hungarians who would of course use their own native variant of the name. Romanians would also most likely use a Hungarian variant as well due to history and the fact Hungarian and Romanian variants are often the same for those same reasons. Whatever the case is...we are here to discuss it and come to a conclusion. Stop acting like a child and let's come to a proper conclusion via discussion...and also improve this article as well while we're at it. Doon't know what the problem is that you take it so personally...but just stop it already. Shokatz (talk) 18:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)