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Frequently asked questions

To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. To view references used by an answer, you must also click the [show] for references at the bottom of the FAQ.

Q1: Is there really a scientific consensus on climate change?

A1: Yes. The IPCC findings of recent warming as a result of human influence are explicitly recognized as the "consensus" scientific view by the science academies of all the major industrialized countries. No scientific body of national or international standing presently rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate. This scientific consensus is supported by over 99% of publishing climate scientists.^[1]

Q2: How can we say climate change is real when it's been so cold in such-and-such a place?

A2: This is why it is termed "global warming", not "(such-and-such a place) warming". Even then, what rises is the average temperature over time – that is, the temperature will fluctuate up and down within the overall rising trend. To give an idea of the relevant time scales, the standard averaging period specified by the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) is 30 years. Accordingly, the WMO defines climate change as "a statistically significant variation in either the mean state of the climate or in its variability, persisting for an extended period (typically decades or longer)."^[2]

Q3: Can't the increase of CO₂ be from natural sources, like volcanoes or the oceans?

A3: While these claims are popular among global warming skeptics,^[3]^[4] including academically trained ones,^[5]^[6] they are incorrect. This is known from any of several perspectives:

Current human emissions of CO₂ are at least 100 times larger than volcanic emissions. Measurements of CO₂ levels over the past 50 years do not show any significant rises after eruptions.^[7] This is easily seen in a graph of CO₂ concentrations over the past 50 years: the strongest eruption during the period, that of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, produced no increase in the trend.
Isotopic analysis of atmospheric carbon dioxide shows the observed change in the ratio of carbon isotopes reflects the isotopic ratios in fossil fuels.^[8]
Atmospheric oxygen content is decreasing at a rate that agrees with the amount of oxygen being used to burn fossil fuels.^[9]
If the oceans were giving up some of their carbon dioxide, their carbon dioxide concentration would have to decrease. But instead we are measuring an increase in the oceans' carbon dioxide concentration, resulting in the oceans becoming more acidic (or in other words, less basic).^[10]

Q4: I think the article is missing some things, or has some things wrong. Can I change it?

A4: Yes. Keep in mind that your points need to be based on documented evidence from the peer-reviewed literature, or other information that meets standards of verifiability, reliability, and no original research. If you do not have such evidence, more experienced editors may be able to help you find it (or confirm that such evidence does not exist). You are welcome to make such queries on the article's talk page but please keep in mind that the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not discussing the topic. There are many forums that welcome general discussions of global warming, but the article talk page is not such a forum.

Q5: Why haven't the graphs been updated?

A5: Two reasons:

There are many images used in the articles related to global warming, and there are many reasons why they may not be updated with the latest data. Some of the figures, like the Global Warming Map, are static, meaning that they are intended to show a particular phenomenon and are not meant to be updated frequently or at all. Others, like the Instrumental Temperature Record and Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies, use yearly data and thus are updated once per year—usually in mid- to late-January, depending upon when the data is publicly released, and when a volunteer creates the image. Still others, like Mauna Loa Carbon Dioxide, use monthly data. These are updated semi-regularly.
However, just because an image is 6 months or a year old does not mean it is useless. Robert A. Heinlein is credited with saying, "Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get", meaning that climate is defined as a long-term average of weather, usually about 30 years. This length was chosen to eliminate the year-to-year variations.^[11] Thus, in terms of climate change, any given year's data is of little import.

Q6: Isn't climate change "just a theory"?

A6: People who say this are abusing the word "theory" by conflating its common meaning with its scientific meaning. In common usage, "theory" can mean a hunch or guess, but a scientific theory, roughly speaking, means a coherent set of explanations that is compatible with observations and that allows predictions to be made. That the temperature is rising is an observation. An explanation for this (also known as a hypothesis) is that the warming is primarily driven by greenhouse gases (such as CO₂ and methane) released into the atmosphere by human activity. Scientific models have been built that predict the rise in temperature and these predictions have matched observations. When scientists gain confidence in a hypothesis because it matches observation and has survived intense scrutiny, the hypothesis may be called a "theory". Strictly speaking, scientific theories are never proven, but the degree of confidence in a theory can be discussed. The scientific models now suggest that it is "extremely likely" (>95%) to "virtually certain" (>99%) that the increases in temperature have been caused by human activity as discussed in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report. Global warming via greenhouse gases by human activity is a theory (in the scientific sense), but it is most definitely not just a hunch or guess.

Q7: Does methane cause more warming than CO₂?

A7: It's true that methane is more potent molecule for molecule. But there's far less of it in the atmosphere, so the total effect is smaller. The atmospheric lifetime of methane (about 10 years) is a lot shorter than that of CO₂ (hundreds to thousands of years), so when methane emissions are reduced the concentration in the atmosphere soon falls, whereas CO₂ accumulates in the atmosphere over long periods. For details see the greenhouse gas and global warming potential articles.

Q8: How can you say there's a consensus when lists of "skeptical scientists" have been compiled?

A8: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Over 99% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change.^[1] This is an extremely high percentage well past any reasonable threshold for consensus. Any list of "skeptical scientists" would be dwarfed by a comparably compiled list of scientists accepting anthropogenic climate change.

Q9: Did climate change end in 1998?

A9: One of the strongest El Niño events in the instrumental record occurred during late 1997 through 1998, causing a spike in global temperature for 1998. Through the mid-late 2000s this abnormally warm year could be chosen as the starting point for comparisons with later years in order to produce a cooling trend; choosing any other year in the 20th century produced a warming trend. This no longer holds since the mean global temperatures in 2005, 2010, 2014, 2015 and 2016 have all been warmer than 1998.^[12] More importantly, scientists do not define a "trend" by looking at the difference between two given years. Instead they use methods such as linear regression that take into account all the values in a series of data. The World Meteorological Organisation specifies 30 years as the standard averaging period for climate statistics so that year-to-year fluctuations are averaged out;^[2] thus, 10 years isn't long enough to detect a climate trend.

Q10: Wasn't Greenland much warmer during the period of Norse settlement?

A10: Some people assume this because of the island's name. In fact the Saga of Erik the Red tells us Erik named the new colony Greenland because "men will desire much the more to go there if the land has a good name."^[13] Advertising hype was alive and well in 985 AD.

While much of Greenland was and remains under a large ice sheet, the areas of Greenland that were settled by the Norse were coastal areas with fjords that, to this day, remain quite green. You can see the following images for reference:

A map of the Eastern Settlement
A satellite image of that area today
A map of the Western Settlement
A satellite image of that area today
A zoom in on the general area where the Brattahlíð (Erik the Red's farm) and Garðar farms were located

Q11: Are the IPCC reports prepared by biased UN scientists?

A11: The IPCC reports are not produced by "UN scientists". The IPCC does not employ the scientists who generate the reports, and it has no control over them. The scientists are internationally recognized experts, most with a long history of successful research in the field. They are employed by various organizations including scientific research institutes, agencies like NASA and NOAA, and universities. They receive no extra pay for their participation in the IPCC process, which is considered a normal part of their academic duties.

Q12: Hasn't global sea ice increased over the last 30 years?

A12: Measurements show that it has not.^[14] Claims that global sea ice amounts have stayed the same or increased are a result of cherry picking two data points to compare, while ignoring the real (strongly statistically significant) downward trend in measurements of global sea ice amounts.

Arctic sea ice cover is declining strongly; Antarctic sea ice cover has had some much smaller increases, though it may or may not be thinning, and the Southern Ocean is warming. The net global ice-cover trend is clearly downwards.

Q13: Weren't scientists telling us in the 1970s that the Earth was cooling instead of warming?

A13: They weren't – see the article on global cooling. An article in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society has reviewed the scientific literature at that time and found that even during the 1970s the prevailing scientific concern was over warming.^[15] The common misperception that cooling was the main concern during the 1970s arose from a few studies that were sensationalized in the popular press, such as a short nine-paragraph article that appeared in Newsweek in 1975.^[16] (Newsweek eventually apologized for having misrepresented the state of the science in the 1970s.)^[17] The author of that article has repudiated the idea that it should be used to deny global warming.^[18]

Q14: Doesn't water vapour cause 98% of the greenhouse effect?

A14: Water vapour is indeed a major greenhouse gas, contributing about 36% to 70% (not 98%) of the total greenhouse effect. But water vapour has a very short atmospheric lifetime (about 10 days), compared with decades to centuries for greenhouse gases like CO₂ or nitrous oxide. As a result it is very nearly in a dynamic equilibrium in the atmosphere, which globally maintains a nearly constant relative humidity. In simpler terms, any excess water vapour is removed by rainfall, and any deficit of water vapour is replenished by evaporation from the Earth's surface, which literally has oceans of water. Thus water vapour cannot act as a driver of climate change.

Rising temperatures caused by the long-lived greenhouse gases will however allow the atmosphere to hold more vapour. This will lead to an increase in the absolute amount of water vapour in the atmosphere. Since water vapour is itself a greenhouse gas, this is an example of a positive feedback. Thus, whereas water vapour is not a driver of climate change, it amplifies existing trends.

Q15: Is the fact that other solar system bodies are warming evidence for a common cause (i.e. the sun)?

A15: While some solar system bodies show evidence of local or global climate change, there is no evidence for a common cause of warming.

A 2007 National Geographic article described the views of Khabibullo Abdusamatov, who claims that the sun is responsible for global warming on both Earth and Mars.^[19] Abdussamatov's views have no support in the scientific community, as the second page of the National Geographic article makes clear: "'His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion,' said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University. [...] Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that 'the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations.'"^[20]
There is no reliable source claiming that Jupiter is warming. However, observations of the Red Spot Jr. storm suggest Jupiter could be in a period of global climate change.^[21]^[22] This is hypothesized to be part of an approximately 70 year global climate cycle, characterized by the relatively rapid forming and subsequent slow erosion and merging of cyclonic and anticyclonic vortices that help transfer heat between Jupiter's poles and equator. The cycle works like this: As the vortices erode, heat exchange is reduced; this makes the poles cool down and the equatorial region heat up; the resulting temperature difference destabilizes the atmosphere, leading to the creation of new vortices.^[23]^[24]
Pluto has an extremely elliptical orbit with a period of about 248 years. Data are sparse, but two data points from 1988 and 2002 indirectly suggest that Pluto warmed between those two dates.^[25] Pluto's temperature is heavily influenced by its elliptical orbit – it was closest to the sun in 1989 and has slowly receded since. Because of thermal inertia, it is expected to warm for a while after it passes perihelion (similar to how a sunny day's warmest temperatures happen during the afternoon instead of right at noon). No other mechanism has so far been seriously suggested. Here is a reasonable summary, and this paper discusses how the thermal inertia is provided by sublimation and evaporation of parts of Pluto's atmosphere. A more popular account is here and in Wikipedia's own article.

Q16: Do scientists support climate change just to get more money?

A16: No,

Scientists participate in international organizations like the IPCC as part of their normal academic duties. They do not receive any extra compensation beyond possibly for direct expenses.
Scientific grants do not usually award any money to a scientist personally, only towards the cost of his or her scientific work.
There is not a shortage of useful things that scientists could study if they were not studying global warming.
- Understanding our climate system better brings benefits independent of global warming. For instance, more accurate weather predictions save a lot of money (on the order of billions of dollars a year), and everyone from insurance agents to farmers wants climate data.^[26]^[27] Scientists could get paid to study climate even if global warming did not exist.

Q17: Doesn't the climate vary even without human activity?

A17: It does, but the fact that natural variation occurs does not mean that human-induced change cannot also occur. Climate scientists have extensively studied natural causes of climate change (such as orbital changes, volcanism, and solar variation) and have ruled them out as an explanation for the current temperature increase. Human activity is the cause at the 95 to 99 percent confidence level (see the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report for details). The high level of certainty in this is important to keep in mind to spot mention of natural variation functioning as a distraction.

Q18: Should we include the view that climate change will lead to planetary doom or catastrophe?

A18: This page is about the science of climate change. It doesn't talk about planetary doom or catastrophe. For a technical explanation, see catastrophic climate change, and for paleoclimatic examples see PETM and great dying.

Q19: Is an increase in global temperature of, say, 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) important?

A19: Though it may not sound like much, a global temperature rise of 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) is huge in climate terms. For example, the sea level rise it would produce would flood coastal cities around the world, which include most large cities.

Earth's climate has varied significantly over geological ages. The question of an "optimal temperature" makes no sense without a clear optimality criterion. Over geological time spans, ecosystems adapt to climate variations. But global climate variations during the development of human civilization (i.e. the past 12,000 years) have been remarkably small. Human civilization is highly adapted to the current stable climate. Agricultural production depends on the proper combination of soil, climate, methods, and seeds. Most large cities are located on the coast, and any significant change in sea level would strongly affect them. Migration of humans and ecosystems is limited by political borders and existing land use. In short, the main problem is not the higher absolute temperature but the massive and unprecedentedly fast change in climate and the related effects on human societies. The IPCC AR6 WG2 report has a detailed discussion of the effects of rapid climate change.

Q20: Why are certain proposals to change the article discarded, deleted, or ignored? Who is/was Scibaby?

A20: Scibaby is/was a long term abusive sock-master (or coordinated group of sock masters) who has created 1,027 confirmed sock puppets, another 167 suspected socks, and probably many untagged or unrecognized ones. This page lists some recent creations. His modus operandi has changed over time, but includes proposing reasonably worded additions on the talk page that only on close examination turn out to be irrelevant, misinterpreted, or give undue weight to certain aspects. Scibaby is banned, and Scibaby socks are blocked as soon as they are identified. Some editors silently revert his additions, per WP:DENY, while others still assume good faith even for likely socks and engage them.

Q21: What about this really interesting recent peer-reviewed paper I read or read about, that says...?

A21: There are hundreds of peer-reviewed papers published every month in respected scientific journals such as Geophysical Research Letters, the Journal of Climate, and others. We can't include all of them, but the article does include references to individual papers where there is consensus that they best represent the state of the relevant science. This is in accordance with the "due weight" principle (WP:WEIGHT) of the Neutral point of view policy and the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" principle (WP:IINFO) of the What Wikipedia is not policy.

Q22: Why does the article define "climate change" as a recent phenomenon? Hasn't the planet warmed and cooled before?

A22: Yes, the planet has warmed and cooled before. However, the term "climate change" without further qualification is widely understood to refer to the recent episode and often explicitly connected with the greenhouse effect. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we use the term in this most common meaning. The article Climate variability and change deals with the more general concept.

Q23: Did the CERN CLOUD experiment prove that climate change is caused not by human activity but by cosmic rays?

A23: No. For cosmic rays to be causing global warming, all of the following would have to be true, whereas only the italicized one was tested in the 2011 experiment:^[28]

Solar magnetic field must be getting stronger
The number of cosmic rays reaching Earth must be dropping
Cosmic rays must successfully seed clouds, which requires:

Cosmic rays must trigger aerosol (liquid droplet) formation,
These newly-formed aerosols must grow sufficiently through condensation to form cloud-condensation nuclei (CCN),
The CCN must lead to increased cloud formation, and
Cloud cover on Earth must be declining.

Perhaps the study's lead author, Jasper Kirkby, put it best: "...it [the experiment] actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it's a very important first step."^[29]

Q24: I read that something can't fix climate change. Is this true?

A24: Yes, this is true for all plausible single things including: "electric cars", "planting trees", "low-carbon technology", "renewable energy", "Australia", "capitalism", "the doom & gloom approach", "a Ph.D. in thermodynamics". Note that it is problematic to use the word "fix" regarding climate change, as returning the climate to its pre-industrial state currently appears to be feasible only over a timeframe of thousands of years. Current efforts are instead aimed at mitigating (meaning limiting) climate change. Mitigation is strived for through the combination of many different things. See Climate change mitigation for details.

References

^ ^a ^b Powell, James (20 November 2019). "Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming". Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 37 (4): 183–184. doi:10.1177/0270467619886266. S2CID 213454806. Retrieved 15 November 2020.
^ ^a ^b "Commission for Climatology Frequently Asked Questions". World Meteorological Organization. Archived from the original on 5 May 2020. Retrieved 14 July 2020.
^ Harris, Tom. "Scientists who work in the fields liberal arts graduate Al Gore wanders through contradict his theories about man-induced climate change". National Post. Archived from the original on 30 August 2011. Retrieved 11 January 2009 – via Solid Waste & Recycling. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 4 February 2012 suggested (help)
^ Arriola, Benj. "5 Good Arguments Why GlobalWarming is NOT due to Man-made Carbon Dioxide". Global Warming Awareness Blog. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Ahlbeck, Jarl. "Increase of the Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Concentration due to Ocean Warming". Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Kirby, Simon (11 April 2007). "Top scientist debunks global warming". Herald Sun. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Brahic, Catherine (16 May 2007). "Climate myths: Human CO2 emissions are too tiny to matter". New Scientist. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ "More Notes on Global Warming". Physics Today. May 2005. Retrieved 10 September 2007.
^ Battle, M.; et al. (2000). "Global Carbon Sinks and Their Variability Inferred from Atmospheric O2 and d13C". Science. 287 (5462): 2467–2470. doi:10.1126/science.287.5462.2467.
^ The Royal Society (2005). "Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide". Retrieved 9 May 2012.
^ "Met Office: Climate averages". Met Office. Archived from the original on 24 February 2009. Retrieved 23 January 2009.
^ Climate Central (18 January 2017). "2016 Was the Hottest Year on Record". Climate Central. Retrieved 1 February 2017.
^ The Saga of Erik the Red, 1880, English translation by J. Sephton, from the original Eiríks saga rauða.
^ "Cold Hard Facts". Tamino. 8 January 2009. Retrieved 21 January 2009.^{[dead link]}
^ Peterson, T. C.; et al. (2008). "The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus". Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society. 89 (9): 1325. Bibcode:2008BAMS...89.1325P. doi:10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1.
^ Gwynne, Peter (28 April 1975). "The Cooling World". Newsweek. p. 64.
^ Verger, Rob (23 May 2014). "Newsweek Rewind: Debunking Global Cooling". Newsweek.
^ Gwynne, Peter (21 May 2014). "My 1975 'Cooling World' Story Doesn't Make Today's Climate Scientists Wrong". insidescience.org.
^ Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.
^ Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (page 2)". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.
^ Marcus, Philip; Shetty, Sushil; Asay-Davis, Xylar (November 2006). Velocities and Temperatures of Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the New Red Oval and Implications for Global Climate Change. American Physical Society. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Goudarzi, Sara (4 May 2006). "New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change". Space.com. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Philip, Marcus S. (22 April 2004). "Prediction of a global climate change on Jupiter" (PDF). Nature. 428 (6985): 828–831. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Yang, Sarah (21 April 2004). "Researcher predicts global climate change on Jupiter as giant planet's spots disappear". University of California, Berkeley. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Elliot, J. L.; et al. (10 July 2003). "The recent expansion of Pluto's atmosphere". Nature (424): 165–168. doi:10.1038/nature01762.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
^ Foerster, Jim. "What's The Difference Between Private Weather Companies And The National Weather Service?". Forbes.
^ Eilts, Mike (27 November 2018). "The Role of Weather—and Weather Forecasting—in Agriculture". DTN.
^ "What do the CERN experiments tell us about global warming?". Skeptical Science. 2 September 2011.
^ Brumfiel, Geoff (23 August 2011). "Cloud Formation May Be Linked to Cosmic Rays". Scientific American.

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Sarah McBroom (March 27, 2007). "Conservapedia.com -- an encyclopedic message from the right". Scripps Howard News Service.
Michael Booth (April 30, 2007). "Grading Wikipedia". The Denver Post.
Lawrence Solomon (July 8, 2008). "Wikipropaganda On Global Warming". CBS News.
"Topics that spark Wikipedia 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. July 18, 2013.
Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies (August 15, 2015). "On Wikipedia, politically controversial science topics vulnerable to information sabotage". Science Daily.

This article was reviewed by The Denver Post on April 30, 2007.
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Definition clarified in lead

As discussed at length above, I've now clarified the definition in line with the AR5 glossary definition and the more recent NASA article on the alternative terms, with technical meanings which differ. Have also noted earlier periods of global warming in interglacials and the PETM, per AR5. Some tidying of references may be needed, but it's time for tea. . . dave souza, talk 20:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted so we can discuss proposed alternative text on talk. We did that through multiple version during a blizzard of discussion June-July 2014. The chronology of archived threads is listed at the beginning of the last installment in the edits series. On the substance of this change, I strongly believe we should continue to use the common lay meaning of the words, so as to make an engaging and accessible article to people with next to zero science education. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the lead is not the right place to put something with relatively complex technical wording. If anything I'd like to see more information about the "common use" of the term (which references to go with that? Would it be OK to e.g. cite some BBC news articles that use "climate change" for "global warming"?). But how about we put what dave souza had proposed into the new "terminology" or "definitions" section that should go at the start of the article? The existing terminology section is now under "history" which is where it belongs because it is mostly about the historical development of the terms. If there is anything there that talks about the current terminology then that can be moved to the new terminology section as well. EMsmile (talk) 14:13, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Will come back to this with proposed alternatives, accept the point that it's good to make the article accessible to lay people – the IPCC is trying to do just that. Trouble with the current intro is that it's flatly misleading: Global warming isn't "also referred to as climate change", it is one specific form of climate change – see the NASA articles I cited at Talk:Climate change#“Climate change” and “global warming” have distinct meanings. Conflating the meanings or confining both to the current anthropogenic warming confuses rather than informs. Will aim to come back to this in about a week to think about the bast way forward, agree that a section on current definitions could help. . . dave souza, talk 17:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, thanks for the future effort.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another approach, after review of the sources and drafting a couple of options. Discussion of the current context commonly equates climate change to warming of the climate system, but we should be clearer that climate change also includes earlier changes. I think it works to keep the start of the lead the same, but amend the end of the first paragraph to explain "proxy records covering" as "proxy records of climate change over...":
Many of the observed changes since the 1950s are unprecedented in the instrumental temperature record, which extends back to the mid-19th century, and in paleoclimate proxy records of climate change over thousands of years.
[source: SPM page=4 "evidence of climate change based on many independent scientific analyses from observations of the climate system, paleoclimate archives .... Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over decades to millennia.]
@ NAEG, this keeps the June-July 2014 much discussed consensus to base the opening paragraph on common usage of the terms rather than tech usage, while concisely referring and linking to the wider usage of climate change at the end of the paragraph. I've no problem with this change being reverted if further discussion is needed. . . dave souza, talk 19:34, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Work in progress...

still needs work. Back in March 2017 the sentence was changed to say the "unprecedented changes" are "in" the instrumental or proxy temp records. I missed this at the time, but that's not true strictly speaking. The Instrumental Temperature Record has no data for permafrost extent, for example. I'll try to think about this when I have more time.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest:

Global warming, also referred to as climate change, is the observed century-scale rise in the average temperature of the Earth's climate system and its related effects. Multiple lines of scientific evidence show that the climate system is warming. In the instrumental temperature record at Earth's surface, recent decades are the warmest since these records began in the mid-19th century. Historical records and paleoclimate proxy records of climate change show that many of the observed changes since the 1950s are unprecedented over thousands of years.

Possible additional sentence:

In the Northern Hemisphere, recent warming has has reversed long-term cooling trends of the past 5000 years which persisted until the 19th century.

Source: AR5 Chapter 5 p. 386. Maybe a comma needed; "past 5,000 years". . dave souza, talk 08:12, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"could" threaten?

Hi, first off thanks a million to all who have worked on this article. It is a wonderful and essential resource!

"Ocean acidification could threaten coral reefs, fisheries, protected species, and other natural resources of value to society." Shouldn't this read "Ocean acidification *threatens* coral reefs, fisheries, protected species, and other natural resources of value to society." or at least separate the potential threats from the confirmed threats (coral reefs...)? -- Phenylalanine (talk) 16:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thanks! It's a good point, so I've made it "threatens damage to" which is more explicit. . dave souza, talk 16:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To my ear "threatens" implies the potential for damage, not necessarily that damage is occurring. More accurate would be "is damaging" or similar wording. Details here. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How about both? The RS Boris posted contains plenty of material to support both "is damaging" as well as future threats NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:27, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question about external links

I am not a fan of long external links lists as you might end up with so many links to people's favourite youtube videos or lectures that newcomers/laypersons get completely overwhelmed. I think we really ought to just link to the main, most authorative places. To this end, I wonder if we really need this external link?: "Climate change tutorial by Prof. Myles Allen (Oxford), March 2018: Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (45 min. total); background & slide deck" I would be inclined to remove it. By the way, he doesn't talk about global warming at all but human-induced climate change. This might have been the best new title when we had the renaming discussion for this article which I "lost". EMsmile (talk) 15:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

AP 2018 style book terms global warming and climate change

FYI 2018 AP stylebook is out and behind a paywall. There are are various non-RS comments circulating (example) that report this version of the playbook says "global warming" and "climate change" may be used interchangeably. Does anyone have access to the real McCoy? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:00, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2018

This edit request to Global warming has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

81.131.46.114 (talk) 13:06, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kpgj hpjm 13:10, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New name for article

I propose that the name of the article "Global warming" which has political inferences, should be renamed "Anthropogenic climate change" because it is more scientifically accurate and less politically charged. "Global warming" doesn't emphasise that it is anthropogenic, i.e. caused by humans, which is the underlying cause. And "warming" discounts the extreme cold that is also experienced. In other words, the current name of the title "Global warming" is just scientifically inaccurate and sounds more like a political gimmick, distinct from any serious academic literature. I thus propose a name change! 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:4FE:8627:D23F:86B2 (talk) 20:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To just prove my point, if you look at the FAQ at the top of this article, observe a simple e.g. of a Q. "A2: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Roughly 97% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change.[2]" What do you observe? Any time literature is being quoted, there is no reference to "global warming". It is always to "anthropogenic climate change". Wikipedia is not the Daily Mail - it is serious academic literature and as such should use the proper scientific terms 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:4FE:8627:D23F:86B2 (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:TITLE. The name of an article is preferably the common name, not some name to exactly specify the topic. It is the purpose of the start of the lead to identify the topic. We try not to write the article in the title. Dmcq (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the WP:Talk page guidelines which advise that before you start a new thread you should read the talk page to see if there already is one. In this case, we just had this debate (see thread titled Talk:Global_warming#Requested_move_3_June_2018) and you have not added any new reasoning, just a rehash of what was said before. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

mate instead of being rude and spitting out rules, if you read what OP said it was not change of name to Climate change but to Anthropogenic climate change which was not discussed in the thread that you listed 49.197.188.176 (talk) 02:05, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but your looking at the wrapper instead of the substance . The substance is this - like the prior thread, this one is almost entirely based on an editor's opinion as to what is "scientifically accurate and less politically charged". When there are sufficient citations to reliable sources to support a name change, or compelling new logical analysis of existing ones, then we will be having a new conversation instead of an opinion-based rehash. As it happens, I don't like the title either. But I haven't been able to marshal the sources and logic to win consensus on that point. You can be rude at me (by assuming I'm commenting in bad faith) or you can try to help build consensus with logical analysis of reliable sources. I'd prefer the latter. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:41, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it's technically a more accurate title but I'm on the fence about a name change. My thought is that the lay reader is not going to know what Anthropogenic climate change means without an explanation. As such I am opposed to the proposed change. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 12:29, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While I also like "anthropogenic climate change", I have the same impression. Opposition to title change per WP:COMMONNAME is a policy-based argument, it would be difficult to convince a "discussion closer" (who assesses consensus) with other preference or technical arguments. The precedents demonstrate that starting another title change debate would be a waste of everyone's time. —Paleo Neonate – 12:40, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How about we add, "or more technically as anthropogenic climate change"? That seems like a resonable middle ground to me. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 13:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is proposing a change of title, but your idea Rap Chart Mike, sounds like you might be looking at the first line of text instead of the title. Please clarify. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was replying to this diff which seems to have been moved. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh right. I moved a newbie's problematic post to user talk. Sorry about breaking the context. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:20, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I added it to the lead, we'll see if it sticks... —Paleo Neonate – 14:22, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strengthen the lead?

I would like to strengthen the lead with a stronger statement about scientific consensus, possibly following "Multiple lines of scientific evidence show that the climate system is warming" with something like "This scientific consensus is supported by 97% of publishing climate scientists" from FAQ Q1 and possibly "and by national and international scientific organizations"? Regarding relevant citations, would people accept NASA as a source? I see there are citation numbers in the FAQ; do those relate to the main article's reference numbers? My browser doesn't display anything for them. My concern with the "multiple lines" statement alone is that a non-scientific reader may well think "Oh, they're still arguing." Thank you, Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 12:25, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's been enough talk around showing that it isn't still controversial as far as scientists are concerned. If you want to convince like that about it your best bet is to just put the various facts about global warming in a fairly straightforward manner rather than emphasizing the scientific consensus too much which they tend to just see as some conspiracy. That is what this article is about after all Dmcq (talk) 14:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FAQ refs work fine for me, though the heading for that section is formatted differently than for articles so I didn't notice it at first. But clicking a ref hyperlink still takes me to the ref section. As for the proposal, if a reader thinks "multiple lines of scientific evidence" means "some scientists but not all" then god help them with the rest of the article. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Error in first sentence of Summary?

Global warming, also referred to as climate change, is the observed century-scale rise in the average temperature of the Earth's climate system and its related effects.

The term climate system includes the lithosphere which is 5-100km deep. As far as I know, temperature measurements are limited to the atmosphere and water bodies. Correct? 81.131.171.255 (talk) 12:57, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The forces of the climate system modulate the lithosphere through geomorphology. prokaryotes (talk) 14:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's one of many ways the lithosphere interacts with the other four parts of the climate system and vice versa.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:08, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@81.131.171.255 First, we don't report on what any of us think we know. We only report on what the reliable sources say, and in this case they say "Warming of the climate system is unequivocal." That said, sure we measure the temp of the lithosphere. I've helped my wife take such measurements many times. But no on here should care about my personal experience. All we really care about is how hard you've searched for reliable sources and whether you found any. Did you try a google search and google scholar search on _EARTHS CRUST TEMPERATURE_ or _TEMPERATURE LITHOSPHERE_ ? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:08, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arctic amplification

William M. Connolley please elaborate on this edit, in particular the removal of the Nature study featuring your old colleagues at RC - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&type=revision&diff=852657378&oldid=852657235 If you do not object of mentioning the study, please re-add that part, thanks! @William M. Connolley: prokaryotes (talk) 14:10, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What William objected to was that the edit got cause and effect all mixed up. Arctic warming isn't called "arctic amplification"; rather, arctic amplification causes warming to proceed at a faster pace than at lower latitudes (see the article on arctic amplification that you linked). Likewise, extreme weather in mid-latitudes doesn't cause arctic warming; rather, arctic warming causes changes to planetary wave patterns that could be associated with extreme weather (as explained in the abstract of the article that you cited). William M. Connolley may of course correct my interpretation as necessary. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:34, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No need for correction you're exactly right William M. Connolley (talk) 12:14, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm aware of that mix-up, but why not just correct that next time? prokaryotes (talk) 12:23, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

AA own section?

NewsAndEventsGuy, the regional section also refers to short term fluctuations, which AA is not. This topic could also be expanded a little more, and have more updates, for instance AA is much more than twice the global mean already, and more elaborating on the weather patterns, and long term scenarios (temperature gradient vanishing due to lack of ice in the Arctic). I suggest we either have a AA sub section, or a sub section for short term trends (ie. cold blob) prokaryotes (talk) 13:22, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of the frustrating experience of live tweaking, I agree the whole section could stand a refresher. Suggest you draft a comprehensive suggestion in your sandbox then post the draft to talk, and we'll all work together much more smoothly. For examples of that approach, search contribs by user @Enescot: NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We really only need to decide sections order. prokaryotes (talk) 13:31, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm opposed to a section "arctic amplification" and "regional observations" side by side, as you already know. The reason is that arctic amplification is an example of regional observations. I'm also opposed to just putting "arctic amplification" as a subheading under regional observations until there is consensus on adding additional subheadings under that section. So it seems your perception of what we "really need to decide" differs from mine, and I have already described what I believe is the most effective way to proceed. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:36, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I like regional too, lets eject the short term stuff into a new section then? prokaryotes (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or Regional and then another sub section here for AA. prokaryotes (talk) 13:49, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't thinks so. Whatever the title, the text in this section seems to emphasize that the vagaries of place and time are interesting (so we can talk about them a bit) but more importantly they all miss the point because the issue is global long term averages, not vagaries in either time or region. Also, all the stuff you added about extreme weather belongs in another section entirely, because the section is not discussing extreme weather, its discussing observed temperature. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:52, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and this emphasis that we need a dedicated section, because AA is observed temperature + extreme weather. prokaryotes (talk) 17:30, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're following the sources accurately. AA is hypothesized - subject to ongoing debate - to contribute to extreme weather in the northern hemisphere but AA itself is independent of the existence of extreme weather. Then of course there is the ANT-arctic regions, and so at wikipedia "arctic amplification" redirects to polar amplification where sentence one defines the phenomena for both poles in terms of warming (not extreme weather) saying, "Polar amplification is the phenomenon that any change in the net radiation balance (for example greenhouse intensification) tends to produce a larger change in temperature near the poles than the planetary average." In addition, elsewhere I have pointed out you arer adding the connection to extreme weather in WIKIVOICE, even though Dr Francis herself in December wrote an essay summarizing the continuing debate and open research questions. There is a lot to be said for inline attribution in these cases. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

AA causes more EW, "The stalling of the northern hemisphere jet stream is being increasingly firmly linked to global warming, in particular to the rapid heating of the Arctic and resulting loss of sea ice." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/27/extreme-global-weather-climate-change-michael-mann The content I've added is reliable sourced. If you want to add to it, go for it. prokaryotes (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This quote does not provide a different definition of AA so changes nothing. (A) The faster warming compared to other places is a regional temperature observation that could reasonably be in the section for regional temperature observations. (B) Re neutral presentation of AA's hypothesized impact on EW by tweaking the jetstream it's an oxymoron to say "increasingly firmly linked". That's like saying 110%, or "definitely (maybe)". (C) Neutral word choice aside, the hypothesized link to extreme weather belongs in a section covering effects, not temperature observations. A likely candidate is the existing subsection Global_warming#Environmental which already has a bullet point for extreme weather. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:59, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the AA stuff to the feedback section, since AA is considered a Planetary scale feedback https://websites.pmc.ucsc.edu/~jnoble/papers/ArcticAmplification.pdf prokaryotes (talk) 19:43, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aspects of it probably belong in more than one place, as this thread attests, There are regional temp observations to be explained, the feedback aspect, and the hypothesized link to extreme weather. Maybe shoehorning it all into one section isn't the best way to help readers understand how the big topic of this article has many pieces that interact in a systemic way? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The mention on temps warming twice is still at the regional temps section. The AA section is not really about EW per se, it's just about attribution and the mechanism. This could be extended ofc, with for instance going into more details about the jet stream patterns, and the subsequent record events (extreme heat, rain, drought, fire etc). prokaryotes (talk) 20:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

constraints on climate feedback likelihood

This part in the climate feedback section makes no sense to me, "The IPCC projections previously mentioned span the "likely" range (greater than 66% probability, based on expert judgement)[121] for the selected emissions scenarios. However, the IPCC's projections do not reflect the full range of uncertainty.[122] The lower end of the "likely" range appears to be better constrained than the upper end." -- can we remove this, or does it belong in the model section? prokaryotes (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It could be better explained I suppose. Did you spend any time with the main RS that supports the statement? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's funny, it's the Synthesis report with hundreds of pages, what you cite is not really about cf. prokaryotes (talk) 22:02, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I cited the RS in our article for that bit of text. Yes, it appears in the AR4 WG1 SYR. No, its not a cite to the entire thing which you say is hundreds of pages. It's a cite to a specific sub sub sub section. Did you read this bit all the way through? I thought it explained things just fine. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:19, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Suicide research

There seems to be a bit of a discussion in the edit summaries as whether to include the recent research that suggests that global warming might cause more suicide. Let us streamline that discussion here. In my opinion, there are a couple of criteria to be met before research should be added to a general and well-read article as this one:

It should be confirmed by multiple sources; it should not be scientifically controversial.
It should be a general study; applicable to all affected regions.
If those two are true, it should not get undue weight by devoting multiple lines to it.

I'm not yet convinced that this research should be included. There is still substantial doubt about this study, see for instance the Scientific American review of the research (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-warming-linked-to-higher-suicide-rates-across-north-america/). An other article linking global warming to suicides found that the link global warming-suicide is not general, but only happens during growth season in India: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/07/25/1701354114.

If it is included, I strongly believe it should be summarized in one sentence, and not only mention two specific countries and one research article. Other effects are also summarized in one sentence in this bullet point. Why do people think it should be included/not included? Femkemilene (talk) 08:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Effects of global warming on humans This is a featured article sitting at the top of the topical tree, with the most traffic of all articles on the tree. So this article should be as short, punchy, and well-cited as possible. Adding the latest topical soundbite int he media stream works against this and weakens this article. In addition, we need to be wary of WP:RECENTISM when dealing with kinda new ideas of this sort. This article can certainly include in summary form reference to physical and psychological health impacts.... actually strike "can" and say "should". This article should include a few words about possible physical and psychological health impacts. That's important. But we don't need every paper on that topic as they come off the press to be added here. Instead, shuttle people off to the appropriate sub-articles. When including this material at the subarticles be on the lookout for WP:WIKIVOICE when dealing with new stuff before the global scientific community has had ample time to comment. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:17, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notice that this 2011 study cites (Fritze et al., 2008, Anderson, 2001; Basu & Samet, 2002; Qi, Tong, & Hu, 2009) in regards to increased suicide rates. The study is also cited at the section for psychological impacts at Effects of global warming on humans. prokaryotes (talk) 00:25, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh right, I did move this to that article, and you only reverted the part of the move at this page NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:06, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

? I've added the section on psychology in 2013. My point is, that there are more studies in the general literature. I think a mention here and more extensive over at the effects page. prokaryotes (talk) 01:11, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For clarification, I cannot see any move to the effects page by you. Here is a recent more extensive article by wired on this subject. Looking at above cited SA article, it appears to only look at North America and recent publication. prokaryotes (talk) 01:45, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. I confused Effects of global warming on humans with Effects of global warming on human health. I had moved this text to the latter and its still there. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:56, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but don't you think it requires a mention at the main article here (there is lots of research on this, don't just look at recent coverage, I could extend a ref with above cited PDF study from 2011)? I'm perfectly comfortable with a one-liner. prokaryotes (talk) 02:07, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In summary form, sure. E.g., Many human mental health issues have also been linked to global warming, e.g., blah (cite), blahblah (Cite), and suicide (Cite). At The main sub article Effects of global warming maybe expand the blah to a full sentence. At the specific sub-sub-article Effects of global warming on human health we can expand still more. Cramming the recommended soundbite from each paper as they come along into the top article makes for a crummy top article that will have a very hard time whenever it comes up at WP:FAR. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:40, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tibi adsentior. prokaryotes (talk) 17:28, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

English please. HiLo48 (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Clathrate gun

If you know the RSs for this subject, please take a gander at the mega changes underway at Clathrate_gun_hypothesis. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RSs? Femkemilene (talk) 19:11, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, try this link RSs NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Planetary boundaries

Re this edit, which added article Planetary boundaries as one of the main articles under our section climate change feedback, the reason give was that the concept is supposedly a framework to prevent feedbacks, per new PNAS study, only the cited paper does not mention the planetary feedback concept. Additionally, the concept is still being debated and so far as I know has yet to be embraced by the UN or UNFCC. So I reverted that particular edit here.
It's certainly an interesting paradigm, and touches on many topics including mitigation, adaptation, politics, but it isn't clear what RSs would allow us to work it in here, or how that could best be done in context with the article as a whole. But if anyone wants to start with doing research in the RSs, I certainly have an open mind about it. Just needs to pass muster with our various guidelines. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:55, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rockström, co-author of the PNAS study is the utmost expert on planetary boundaries (The PNAS study acknowledges members of the Planetary Boundary team). In his 2009 study Rockström, postulated a planetary boundary framework, which is based on feedback processes in the climate system. The PNAS study which identified ten tipping points, and related thresholds, basically uses the planetary boundary concept. A bit unclear why they not refer to it directly. However, the page should be linked there, then with See also, because climate tipping points are modulated within the planetary climate system constraints. If someone could take a peak into this study, many of the same authors, and think it mentions feedbacks and boundaries http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2015/01/14/science.1259855/tab-pdf prokaryotes (talk) 22:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This study connects both terms Planetary Boundaries: Exploring the Safe Operating Space for Humanity prokaryotes (talk) 22:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You know these sources better than me. Go for it. Just make sure whatever you do is based on what others will read in the sources rather than applying the rest of your knowledge to your reading of the sources. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay will add something, also the PB article seems like it needs an update. prokaryotes (talk) 22:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Warming in what time period?

This concerns the second line of the article: "Multiple lines of scientific evidence show that the climate system is warming." Warming is a relative term. I suggest we add "over the last century" to the end to clarify that the warming has occurred relative to what it was a 100 years ago. As the IPCC source cited for this statement also notes the time period over which the warming has occurred (recent decades). -Obsidi (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed it may be a good faith suggestion but per WP:LEAD this is supposed to summarize the main body of the article and we cover this pretty thoroughly in the main body. The lead is already excessively bloated with descriptors and a hint of tech speak that reduces the friendliness of the lead's read. If we add every nuance that can be supported by similar reasoning the lead will become an article instead of a summary! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed as use of the word "is" clearly mens it's now, a continuing process. . . . dave souza, talk 14:08, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Studies on indoor Co2 emissions

Recently, I've added two study results on CO2 concentrations assessing indoor Co2 concentrations, and it has been removed, however, the projected CO2 amount in Earth's atmosphere by the end of the century (outdoors) is in this ballpark, thus while not aiming at these trajectories, these studies appear relevant. I acknowledge a certain OR attribution in these findings, when posting it here, but it appears still, relevant, since it matches this topic. It is sad that we have to wait for studies to point this out directly. @Gorthian: prokaryotes (talk) 04:51, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I would say that is definitely OR. We have no idea how the concentrations of CO2 in the general atmosphere would affect humans. Until specific studies have been done on just that, extrapolating from indoor effects to atmospheric effects is pure speculation. There are just too many unknown factors.

Those studies would be good citations in the carbon dioxide article, though. :-) — Gorthian (talk) 05:01, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Gorthian. If the extrapolation to global warming is made in the articles themselves, you could post it on health effects of global warming as well. Definitely important for CO2 article, but not sufficiently relevant for global warming. Femkemilene (talk) 07:19, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Same here. The bigger problem, in my opinion, is that about the time the Steffen "Hothouse" paper made scary headlines it seems like you've really been shoehorning in disjointed bits of cursory language from primary sources. It's illegal to litter, you know. Makes a ton of work for others cleaning up. If you want to look into this, with due time and labor, I just did some cursory searching on Carbon dioxide oognition in google and google scholar. Search the last two years only. There's a ton of material you could master before figuring out how to best improve our articles based on secondary sources. But most eds don't do that, because it means work and time and care. Here's three to get you started. These may not all be secondary RS but can get you started, and their bibliographies are further resources

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gorthian:, I wrote about this after reading [this new Forbes article]. Why would be the CO2 effect indoors differently to outdoors, it is the same toxicity. Forbes: How Does Climate Change Affect The Air We Breathe Indoors? Money Quote, "At 600 ppm we start to see the first hints of reduced cognitive function as CO2 is increasing in our blood stream. At 1000 ppm we see distinct impairment. At 2500 ppm we are effectively incompetent." prokaryotes (talk) 12:14, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the indoor emphasis is due to the fact that we do not experience these CO2 levels outdoors, yet. prokaryotes (talk) 12:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NewsAndEventsGuy:, thank you for looking into this in more detail, and providing more spot on studies, will follow this topic and may add something more on point per WP guides at a later time (unless someone else does). prokaryotes (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Even if this topic was relevant to the article (

This is going off into the weeds. Direct health effects of CO2 are covered in other articles (e.g., Carbon_dioxide#Human_physiology) but aren't on-point for an article about global warming. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 12:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do think that if good research (as in multiple studies, clear consensus) is available, we should include it in a subarticle about global warming as well (health effects). We have done the same for ocean acidification, which is included in this article. It is not a direct effect of the warming, but definitely very closely related. @Prokaryotes:, before you spend a lot of energy looking for RS, maybe it would be wise to first find consensus on the relevance. I do not support inclusion, but might change mind if the sources are a) about global warming (not indoors) b) there is a clear consensus c) the magnitude of the effect is similar to other health effects. Femkemilene (talk) 13:06, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[Powell2019-1] Powell, James (20 November 2019). "Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming". Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 37 (4): 183–184. doi:10.1177/0270467619886266. S2CID 213454806. Retrieved 15 November 2020.

[WMO-FAQS-2] "Commission for Climatology Frequently Asked Questions". World Meteorological Organization. Archived from the original on 5 May 2020. Retrieved 14 July 2020.

[3] Harris, Tom. "Scientists who work in the fields liberal arts graduate Al Gore wanders through contradict his theories about man-induced climate change". National Post. Archived from the original on 30 August 2011. Retrieved 11 January 2009 – via Solid Waste & Recycling. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 4 February 2012 suggested (help)

[4] Arriola, Benj. "5 Good Arguments Why GlobalWarming is NOT due to Man-made Carbon Dioxide". Global Warming Awareness Blog. Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[5] Ahlbeck, Jarl. "Increase of the Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Concentration due to Ocean Warming". Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[6] Kirby, Simon (11 April 2007). "Top scientist debunks global warming". Herald Sun. Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[7] Brahic, Catherine (16 May 2007). "Climate myths: Human CO2 emissions are too tiny to matter". New Scientist. Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[8] "More Notes on Global Warming". Physics Today. May 2005. Retrieved 10 September 2007.

[9] Battle, M.; et al. (2000). "Global Carbon Sinks and Their Variability Inferred from Atmospheric O2 and d13C". Science. 287 (5462): 2467–2470. doi:10.1126/science.287.5462.2467.

[10] The Royal Society (2005). "Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide". Retrieved 9 May 2012.

[11] "Met Office: Climate averages". Met Office. Archived from the original on 24 February 2009. Retrieved 23 January 2009.

[12] Climate Central (18 January 2017). "2016 Was the Hottest Year on Record". Climate Central. Retrieved 1 February 2017.

[13] The Saga of Erik the Red, 1880, English translation by J. Sephton, from the original Eiríks saga rauða.

[14] "Cold Hard Facts". Tamino. 8 January 2009. Retrieved 21 January 2009.^{[dead link]}

[15] Peterson, T. C.; et al. (2008). "The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus". Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society. 89 (9): 1325. Bibcode:2008BAMS...89.1325P. doi:10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1.

[16] Gwynne, Peter (28 April 1975). "The Cooling World". Newsweek. p. 64.

[17] Verger, Rob (23 May 2014). "Newsweek Rewind: Debunking Global Cooling". Newsweek.

[18] Gwynne, Peter (21 May 2014). "My 1975 'Cooling World' Story Doesn't Make Today's Climate Scientists Wrong". insidescience.org.

[19] Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.

[20] Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (page 2)". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.

[21] Marcus, Philip; Shetty, Sushil; Asay-Davis, Xylar (November 2006). Velocities and Temperatures of Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the New Red Oval and Implications for Global Climate Change. American Physical Society. Retrieved 9 May 2007.

[22] Goudarzi, Sara (4 May 2006). "New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change". Space.com. Retrieved 9 May 2007.

[23] Philip, Marcus S. (22 April 2004). "Prediction of a global climate change on Jupiter" (PDF). Nature. 428 (6985): 828–831. Retrieved 9 May 2007.

[24] Yang, Sarah (21 April 2004). "Researcher predicts global climate change on Jupiter as giant planet's spots disappear". University of California, Berkeley. Retrieved 9 May 2007.

[25] Elliot, J. L.; et al. (10 July 2003). "The recent expansion of Pluto's atmosphere". Nature (424): 165–168. doi:10.1038/nature01762.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[26] Foerster, Jim. "What's The Difference Between Private Weather Companies And The National Weather Service?". Forbes.

[27] Eilts, Mike (27 November 2018). "The Role of Weather—and Weather Forecasting—in Agriculture". DTN.

[28] "What do the CERN experiments tell us about global warming?". Skeptical Science. 2 September 2011.

[29] Brumfiel, Geoff (23 August 2011). "Cloud Formation May Be Linked to Cosmic Rays". Scientific American.

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@@ Line 240: / Line 240: @@
 :::[[User:NewsAndEventsGuy|NewsAndEventsGuy]] ([[User talk:NewsAndEventsGuy|talk]]) 09:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 ::{{ping|Gorthian}}, I wrote about this after reading [this new Forbes article]. Why would be the CO2 effect indoors differently to outdoors, it is the same toxicity. Forbes: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/08/17/how-does-climate-change-affect-the-air-we-breathe-indoors How Does Climate Change Affect The Air We Breathe Indoors?] Money Quote, "''At 600 ppm we start to see the first hints of reduced cognitive function as CO2 is increasing in our blood stream. At 1000 ppm we see distinct impairment. At 2500 ppm we are effectively incompetent.''" [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 12:14, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
-:::Even if this topic was relevant to the article (
 :: I think the indoor emphasis is due to the fact that we do not experience these CO2 levels outdoors, yet. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 12:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 ::{{ping|NewsAndEventsGuy}}, thank you for looking into this in more detail, and providing more spot on studies, will follow this topic and may add something more on point per WP guides at a later time (unless someone else does). [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 12:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
+::Even if this topic was relevant to the article (
 ::This is going off into the weeds. Direct health effects of CO2 are covered in other articles (e.g., [[Carbon_dioxide#Human_physiology]]) but aren't on-point for an article about ''global warming.'' [[User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|Shock Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 12:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 ::: I do think that if good research (as in multiple studies, clear consensus) is available, we should include it in a subarticle about global warming as well (health effects). We have done the same for ocean acidification, which is included in this article. It is not a direct effect of the warming, but definitely very closely related. {{ping|Prokaryotes}}, before you spend a lot of energy looking for RS, maybe it would be wise to first find consensus on the relevance. I do not support inclusion, but might change mind if the sources are a) about global warming (not indoors) b) there is a clear consensus c) the magnitude of the effect is similar to other health effects. [[User:Femkemilene|Femkemilene]] ([[User talk:Femkemilene|talk]]) 13:06, 19 August 2018 (UTC)