Talk:List of PlayStation 2 games (A–K)

Whiplash

There is 2 Whiplash games, how can the other be put on?

The one listed is the racing game, but there is also the Whiplash game that featured a rabbit and a weasel and wasn't racing at all.

Approximate Number of games listed

I hope no one minds. I counted the number of lines on one "page" and multiplied that by the number of "Page Downs" from the start of the list to the bottom. It over estimates the number of games, but I thought a viewer should have some idea of the number titles in english available to the prospective PS2 gamer. I rounded down this number to 1400 and placed it in the first line of the entry. Actually, using Word to count the bullets (sounds violent), asterixs rather, there should be 1418 entries at 09/08/06. I left the ~1,400 though, as this page is under constant revision (beats the 563 on the Xbox games page).

Genre column

Is there a reason this list doesn't have a genre column? Most other console game lists I've seen have them L ke (talk) 19:18, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Article size

Given the size of this article, it would ordinarily be split alphabetically as the other lists of video games have been. However, there are other issues here. There are clearly many entries here that do not have Wikipedia articles and also don't have references, so that raises concerns over notability. The last three columns, describing the regional availability of the video games are also not entirely necessary to the table. Would anybody be opposed to removing those columns? Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:34, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Removing the regional availability has so far not really gained traction on any of the lists. I personally don't care, but I suspect you won't get far if you attempt to remove them. -- ferret (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I was literally JUST using this article, compiling a list of titles which I am looking to acquire, and have been using the regional availability, seeing as I only want to see NA released titles. Now, if I want to see if a title was released in NA, without opening the entire article, I have to squint really hard at the tiny letters next to the release dates. I'm sure others will find this annoying as well. Could you please revert it back? 67.246.111.31 (talk) 00:52, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

I would be opposed to removing the regional availability columns. I don't see how having the columns there negatively affect the page, aside from the size contribution. The region columns allow the user to sort by which games were released in what region. So, for example, if someone is only interested in games released in North America, then they can organize the list to show games released in North America first, followed by games that were not released in North America. I think this makes for a more user friendly experience, particularly for game collectors that are only interested in games released in their regions, without having to scour through hundreds of visual novels.OniiYig (talk) 00:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

I have reverted it back to the way it was. OniiYig (talk) 01:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for making your concern known. There are many columns that could theoretically be added to the table. There are also far too many games listed here which are simply not notable. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:07, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

There are many games which may not be "notable" available on the PS2, there are hundreds of shovelware games that came out on it, but they're still games that were released on the PS2. I think that that should be the criteria for what goes into the list, regardless of how obscure the game may be. There are gameplay videos for these games, many even have ebay listings, these games exist. Due to the fact that many of these games do not have wikipedia articles, if the games with missing links were instead posted as plain text without the links, maybe these games could be added back in? Would this be a reasonable compromise? OniiYig (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

If they have no article, at the very least a source to verify the game exists, developer, and release date is needed. -- ferret (talk) 19:45, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

There's no reason for this article to include all the PlayStation 2 video games that have ever existed. I don't doubt that they exist, they just aren't helpful to the average reader. If an article is made about these games then of course we could add them back into the list. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:09, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Onetwothreeip: At this point we're in a WP:BRD situation. Your efforts the trim the article have met resistance so you're going to need to establish consensus on whether to remove columns, or reduce the inclusion criteria (otherwise not defined here yet) to be only "notable" games. -- ferret (talk) 23:23, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

That's right. I should also add that the reason not to link video games for which there are no articles is the same reason as not including them in the article. They simply aren't notable and don't meet any criteria for inclusion. If they did meet some sort of criteria there should be an article about it, even if it's only a stub article, and then should be included here in this list. I would like OniiYig to explain what they are doing with the article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:01, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Actually, WP:LISTN specificity mentions that not all items on a list must be notable enough for an article. -- ferret (talk) 02:06, 22 May 2019 (UTC)?

It also says we can decide for long lists (this is one of the longest if not the longest single article list on Wikipedia) that we can restrict the criteria to entries with articles. At the very least we can include entries that don't have articles as long as reliable sources discuss them. The point is that they should be notable, not simply just exist. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The inclusion criteria for this list is the existence of the video game. Notability applies to article creation, not to content. (There are certain other types of lists where the individual entries must be notable, but that is not the case here.) You'll need to use an RfC to create a consensus to change the scope of the article before you can start deleting entries. If there were no objections this wouldn't be necessary, but there are objections, so a consensus must be reached. So far continued deletions are against consensus. -- BullRangifer (talk) 02:59, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Okay, the behaviour of you and others from the Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections article following me onto other articles is seriously concerning. All participants on the talk page here have been perfectly respectful and we are very capable of discussing these issues.

In short, lists do have notability criteria. See WP:LISTN. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The list itself has notability criteria. The entries of the list do not. While an RFC isn't necessary, a regular discussion will suffice, BullRangifer is otherwise correct in that you'll need to have a discussion to set a specific inclusion criteria that all entries must be notable. To quote LISTN:

Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.

In the absence of a consensus to narrow the inclusion criteria, the essential default is that any valid verifiable entry of the topic fits. None of our video game platform articles follow a "notable only" criteria however, so I believe we should not make an exception here. I'll oppose narrowing the inclusion criteria. This does not mean that unverifiable entries cannot be removed. Everything still has to pass WP:V. -- ferret (talk) 11:56, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:LISTN editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles. WP:LISTCRITERIA is also important here. The criteria for the other video games lists are not well defined either, but they are not as permissive generally as this list has been. I do agree that we should at least verify these video games as existing, and without their own Wikipedia articles or reliable sources we simply do not have that assurance. I'm not proposing anything that I think anybody would oppose, but our inclusion criteria should prevent regional variants of the same video game from being listed, especially since the variants are not notable themselves. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:15, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm trying to be patient here.... As already noted, yes, we the editors can at our discretion limit the inclusion critiera, if we establish a consensus to do so. It's not some automatic thing that happens but simply something that may happen. In the context of list entries here, yes, we should not have individual rows for different regional variants. For any game we can find a source for though, it does not require that they also pass WP:GNG and have an article. @OniiYig: should be given a chance to source the entries, as they have been working hard to revise the list and add missing entries. Metacritic, GameRankings, even a single review (from an RS), would be enough to prove a given entry exists. -- ferret (talk) 11:39, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you would be impatient since it seems we are agreeing. I've been seeking to start a discussion on things like inclusion criteria, before the page is split like the other video game list articles. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I'd start a clean section away from this one. -- ferret (talk) 11:56, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

OniiYig I don't think we need to list the variant names of each video game here. Onetwothreeip (talk) 13:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)