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*'''Merge''' Agree with Wikiman2718 - I would support a deletion of McDonald if it stood alone. Merging does preserve the McDonald story. [[User:Sgerbic|Sgerbic]] ([[User talk:Sgerbic|talk]]) 19:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' Agree with Wikiman2718 - I would support a deletion of McDonald if it stood alone. Merging does preserve the McDonald story. [[User:Sgerbic|Sgerbic]] ([[User talk:Sgerbic|talk]]) 19:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' the sources that cover her life in some detail are in the context of [[Rosemary Crossley]]'s life. [[User:Ylevental|Ylevental]] ([[User talk:Ylevental|talk]]) 22:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' the sources that cover her life in some detail are in the context of [[Rosemary Crossley]]'s life. [[User:Ylevental|Ylevental]] ([[User talk:Ylevental|talk]]) 22:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' McDonald's case triggered a massive shift in the treatment of people with conditions such as hers in Australia. That
story is her story, not Crossley's. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 23:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:33, 6 August 2019

Skepticism

The article appears to present McDonald's authorship of the papers as a fact. There should be a place for some mention of the skepticism of McDonald's independent communication.

Sufficiently serious issues arose to provoke formal statements of concern from professionals and parents in 1988, and a government-sponsored investigation in 1989. Despite Crossley's resistance to objective testing (on the basis that FC users refused to cooperate when their competence was questioned), some small-scale controlled evaluations were conducted in the course of that investigation. When the facilitator's knowledge about expected messages was well-controlled (more on this later), and the accuracy of messages was evaluated objectively, the effect disappeared. The disabled individuals were unable to communicate beyond their normal expectation. Instead, it appeared that the facilitators were authoring most FC messages, apparently without their awareness. These early studies suggested that FC was susceptible to a somewhat unusual kind of abuse: Allowing others to impose their own wishes, fears, hopes, and agendas on nonspeaking individuals. http://web.archive.org/web/20021217224216/http:/www.skeptic.com/02.3.green-fc.html Ordinary Person (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly agree. I've come here from following links on and editing a series of other facilitated communication related Wikipedia articles that did an inadequate job capturing the actual weight of scientific evidence on the topic, and this definitely fits that pattern. I'm editing the article now to bring it more in line with the views of experts and the valid sources out there, and I've used that link as one of the citations. Thanks for sharing it.]. BreakfastJr (talk) 09:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Habeus corpus

I went and actually looked up R v Health Commission of Victoria; Lipton, George; Maginn, Dennis; ex parte Anne McDonald since everything I can find about it simply refers to a section of Annie's Coming Out (though that has multiple quotes from the judgement and more).[1] A section that seems relevant is part of Patricia Margaret Minnes' affidavit:

However in my opinion the results of this assessment cannot be considered objectively reliable and valid until such time as Anne is shown to perform at a similar intellectual level under experimentally controlled conditions. In my view there are at least three variables which need to be controlled, namely – (a) the nature of support to Anne's arm, (b) the amount of information available to the supporting person regarding the response requested of Anne, and (c) the nature of Anne's responses. In my opinion these factors can be controlled and until the assessment is made under objectively reliable experimental conditions in my opinion the results of Mr. Healey's assessment cannot be taken as conclusive.

Of course, they didn't actually do that because of time pressure, and the judge concluded:

While the possibility must be recognized that Miss Crossley is misleading observers into the mistaken belief that it is the mind of the applicant which finds expression in the selection of letters, either by reason of intentional deception on the part of Miss Crossley, or in consequence of less reprehensible and more obscure psychological processes, that possibility cannot in my judgment be regarded as at all probable.

Anyway, it may be of some use. --tronvillain (talk) 18:36, 6 December 2018 (UTC) [reply]

References

  1. ^ R v Health Commission of Victoria; Lipton, George; Maginn, Dennis; ex parte Anne McDonald [1979] VicSC,(17 May 1979), Supreme Court of Victoria 104118-1001

Public Trustee Act 1958

Also potentially useful may be In the Matter of Anne Therese McDonald, a protected person within the meaning of the Public Trustee Act 1958.[1] It was preceeded by this and this. It was the ruling in which "Anne Therese McDonald, an infirm person (certified as such on the ground of physical infirmity), was desirous of making a contract with Penguin Books Australia Limited, whereby she and Rosemary Crossley as joint authors would write a story of her hospital experiences and Penguin Books would publish the book." It also mentions J. Jenkinson's earlier order that the Health Commisioner of Victoria and Drs. Lipton and Maginn should, "not hinder the departure of the applicant from the premises known as St. Nicholas' Hospital Carlton in the company of Rosemary Crossley." Anyway, on the basis of an 11 page report by a "Senior Master Jacobs" on McDonald and Crossley, Justice Murphy concludes:

I formally order that pursuant to s.39(d)(ii) I will order the Public Trustee to sign and seal a certificate in the form in the Fifth Schedule to the Public Trustee Act 1988 that Anne Therese McDonald has ceased to be an infirm person for the purposes of the Public Tree Act 1958.

The judgment doesn't contain the details of Jacobs' report. --tronvillain (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The website links, here, here, and here. --tronvillain (talk) 16:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ In the Matter of Anne Therese McDonald, a protected person within the meaning of the Public Trustee Act 1958 [1979] VicSC,(25 September 1979), Supreme Court of Victoria 96792-1001

Redirect/merge undone

Hi all, i have undone the redirect/merge of this article as i believe McDonald to be notable enough for a standalone article. She was the subject of a book Annie's Coming Out and of an award winning film Annie's Coming Out. The newspaper references also show international coverage from independent sources. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:29, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support that action. McDonald's case triggered a massive shift in the treatment of people with conditions such as hers in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:00, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The book and film were written by Crossley (the merged article), so it's hardly independent coverage. ApLundell (talk) 07:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a strange response. It's the newspaper references that were described as independent. HiLo48 (talk) 07:45, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but those sources just cover McDonald via Crossley.
There's no coverage of McDonald that is distinct from the coverage of Crossley. All of McDonald's notability come from Crossley, and the fiction that McDonald is capable of speaking through Crossley.
So, since there's nothing you could put here that you wouldn't want to also put on the other article ... why not merge them?ApLundell (talk) 07:51, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I also oppose the redirect. The article seems balanced to me, and there are plenty more sources that can be added. As to "All of McDonald's notability come from Crossley", McDonald studied at and graduated from university without McDonald (with other assistants), and McDonald was given an award. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@RebeccaGreen: ApLundell and myself support merging, you and Coolabahapple oppose it. It's tied for now. Ylevental (talk) 15:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ylevental: You seem to have forgotten HiLo48. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:40, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@RebeccaGreen: Okay, but it's still tied because now Wikiman2718 supports it Ylevental (talk) 15:49, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikiman2718: @Sgerbic: I would like to know your opinions on merging the article into Rosemary Crossley Ylevental (talk) 15:30, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
More pings per WP:MERGEPROP: @Rosiestep: @Becstarr: @Yazzledazzle: @Toploftical: @Amie.smith: @BreakfastJr: @Krelnik: @Tronvillain: @Maproom: RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Penny Richards as I value her opinion. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about that, but if kept, the article should make it clear she was kidnapped/exploited by Crossley Ylevental (talk) 22:48, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep McDonald's case triggered a massive shift in the treatment of people with conditions such as hers in Australia. That
story is her story, not Crossley's. HiLo48 (talk) 23:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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