Talk:Killing of Jonny Gammage: Difference between revisions

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Requested move 16 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 16:49, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jonny Gammage → Death of Jonny Gammage – Totally about the death of the person. Also, the article needs some rewriting and more sourcing, though it's irrelevant to the title. George Ho (talk) 05:22, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:BIO1E. —BarrelProof (talk) 06:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 2 June 2020

The request to rename this article to Killing of Jonny Gammage has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Death of Jonny Gammage → Killing of Jonny Gammage – In the recently concluded discussion on the renaming of the earlier page titled Death of George Floyd to Killing of George Floyd, many of those against the move cited previous instances like this page and Death of Eric Garner as precedence. However, the motion has passed with a general consensus, with around 250 editors participating in the discussion, and one of the deciding arguments was that the autopsy reports have ruled the death of George Floyd it as a homicide. Since this is also the case for Jonny Gammage, for the sake of consistency we should also rename this page. Bubka42 (talk) 18:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Judges ruled against yet activists insist on rewriting history to fit their personal narrative. Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. 2601:602:9200:1310:93B:1B27:C783:41DD (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Stop implying he was killed, every suspect has been acquitted of all charges, after two different trials. "Death" is the name that has been used for 25 years—the justice system has concluded all the officers were innocent. Every time a black person dies, some people already know the truth, notwithstanding the actual reality. Stop always dividing between whites and blacks. --Foghe (talk) 23:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The detailed discussion under the George Floyd move is applicable here as well. Moreover, the opening sentence of the article has used "killed" since 2005. There is no reason for the title to differ. The two ought to be made consistent, and recent discussions prevail in favour of "killed". Althunyon (talk) 23:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, Floyd is not applicable here, this is a different situation: the Courts ruled two times that the suspects are not killers—we need to regard Justice steadily, not only when we get advange from it, and ignore it otherwise. --Foghe (talk) 00:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

U.S. courts simply detemine whether or not a person is killed. They say whether or not a killing is a murder or not a murder, more specifically whether or not a person is guilty of a crime when they killed him. The fact that he was killed was determined by the medical expert who recommended homicide charges. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. As the officers were never convicted, there are significant BLP concerns here, as "killing" often implies a deliberate killing rather than an unintentional or accidental one: "killing--an act in which someone is deliberately killed"[1]. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. Since there was sufficient evidence for a coroner's jury to recommend homicide charges and for the district attorney to file the charge of involuntary manslaughter, then obviously the victim was officially declared to have been killed. The fact that the accused were not convicted does not change the fact that the victim was killed. It simply means that the juries did not assign to the accused the responsibility for the victim being killed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This article is poorly sourced, so I have no idea if "killing" is verifiable. If someone can show a few sources to convince me that killing is commonly used by sources that have written about this death, I will gladly reconsider. - MrX 🖋 11:21, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Murder or death would be more neutral. Games of the world (talk) 18:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 36: / Line 36: @@
 *'''Support'''. The detailed discussion under [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd the George Floyd move] is applicable here as well. Moreover, the opening sentence of the article has used "killed" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Jonny_Gammage&type=revision&diff=960394790&oldid=25387578 since 2005]. There is no reason for the title to differ. The two ought to be made consistent, and recent discussions prevail in favour of "killed". [[User:Althunyon|Althunyon]] ([[User talk:Althunyon|talk]]) 23:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 ::No, Floyd is not applicable here, this is a different situation: the Courts ruled <u>two times</u> that the suspects are not killers—we need to regard Justice steadily, not only when we get advange from it, and ignore it otherwise. --[[User:Foghe|Foghe]] ([[User talk:Foghe|talk]]) 00:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
+:::U.S. courts simply detemine whether or not a person is killed. They say whether or not a killing is a murder or not a murder, more specifically whether or not a person is guilty of a crime when they killed him. The fact that he was killed was determined by the medical expert who recommended homicide charges. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 18:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 *'''Oppose'''. As the officers were never convicted, there are significant BLP concerns here, as "killing" often implies a deliberate killing rather than an unintentional or accidental one: "killing--an act in which someone is deliberately killed"[https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/killing]. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 00:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 *'''Support''' per nomination. Since there was sufficient evidence for a coroner's jury to recommend homicide charges and for the district attorney to file the charge of involuntary manslaughter, then obviously the victim was officially declared to have been killed. The fact that the accused were not convicted does not change the fact that the victim was killed. It simply means that the juries did not assign to the accused the responsibility for the victim being killed.&nbsp;—[[User:Roman Spinner|'''Roman Spinner''']] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 03:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)