Talk:Murder of George Floyd

"Killing" of George Floyd

According to the Hennepin County autopsy done precisely 12 hours after Floyd's death, there's no evidence to suggest Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd. In fact, the evidence reported in the autopsy shows the exact opposite.

There should be an edit done that instead says "Death", since it's very obvious that he died (not at the hands of Chauvin's actions) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PalNate (talk • contribs) 17:48, July 15, 2020 (UTC)

@PalNate: please see FAQ #4 at the very top of this page. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu—I think the source PalNate is providing, the "Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office Autopsy Report" would suggest that the article title is misleading and that FAQ #4 is misleading. The article should be accurate even if a terrible crime was permitted. Bus stop (talk) 23:30, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, the second autopsy suggests that the title is appropriate. FAQ #4 is appropriate as it was Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck that killed Floyd. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu—The title is misleading. The second autopsy was carried about privately and paid for by Floyd's family. I can't trust the validity of something when the possibility of a private examiner could have simply been paid to say something. The second autopsy hasn't even been released to the public. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PalNate (talk • contribs) 00:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

No one has been convicted yet so why is it described as a killing. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Phoenix1494 (talk) 00:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Phoenix1494, see FAQ4 (if it doesn't show at the top of this page, you might have to click the "about this page" link at the top to see it) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 01:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, to be fair, some readers might have a different definition of killing, which is not addressed by the FAQ.—Bagumba (talk) 02:16, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Bagumba, who was the perceptive genius editor who raised that point? I edited the FAQ to say "common American English parlance"... better? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:19, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

It is obvious he was killed..it is just as obvious that he was murdered..this is not a courtroom 2600:1702:2340:9470:200B:8D97:705A:F35B (talk) 01:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Nor did anyone say or imply it was a "courtroom". Bus stop (talk) 19:31, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes they did...Phoenix brought up innocent until proven guilty which only applies to the law..if an animal " kills " another animal it means the same thing..it has nothing to do with the law..if a soldier gets killed in battle some would say it`s not a murder but the victim was killed 2600:1702:2340:9470:6D85:7514:AA02:ACDF (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Support the above. Killing as in Mr Floyd was killed. Not to imply offences or guilt of any of the other people mentioned in the article. Let's not descent into the Dead Parrot sketch here. SiJoHaAl (talk) 16:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

The answer to FAQ 4 is false and misleading. ("In most US jurisdictions the determination of whether or not a death is a homicide is made by a coroner or medical examiner, as a prerequisite to other legal proceedings. The medical examiner in Floyd's case determined that his death was, indeed, a homicide.") As stated in the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Press Release Report that accompanied his Autopsy Report, a classification of Manner of Death (as homicide, natural, accident, undetermined, etc.) is made "for purposes of vital statistics and public health. Manner of death is not a legal determination of culpability or intent, and should not be used to usurp the judicial process. Such decisions are outside the scope of the Medical Examiner's role or authority." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:52d0:3f90:284c:c131:2c19:8609 (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

References

I`m guessing what you`re saying it`s not a homicide unless the murderer is found guilty in court..this isn`t true..if he get`s found innocent in court he may still be guilty..you have gone to this place where all this is only a legal matter and nothing else...more to the point the man was killed...homicide is not just a legal term https://www.dictionary.com/browse/homicide 107.217.84.95 (talk) 23:29, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Problem with details as described

Problems with details as described

as a preamble to this, i just want to point out that ensuring the accuracy of the articles relating to this event is starting to become a chore and more work than my day job so i only have 3 points to highlight initially. if i see anything else later i will add them here (each point is individually signed so they can be directly responded under :)). the 3 articles: Derek Chauvin, George Floyd, and Killing of George Floyd literally have multiple components where they contradict each other, disregard reliable sources, fail to update mistakes or outdated information... why does this have to be so hard? Stayfree76 (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC) 1. In "Initial Events" it says "Lane drew his gun and ordered Floyd to put his hands on the steering wheel; Floyd complied and Lane holstered his weapon." this is not accurate according to the [complaint], which states "As Officer Lane began speaking with Mr. Floyd, he pulled his gun out and pointed it at Mr. Floyd’s open window and directed Mr. Floyd to show his hands. When Mr. Floyd put his hands in the steering wheel, Lane put his gun back in its holster." and [body cam audio transcript] which shows that mr floyd did not comply initially. excerpt: Lane: yup-yup Just head back In. They're moving around a lot. Let me see your hands. George Floyd: Hey, man. I'm sorry! Lane: Stay in the car, let me see your other hand. George Floyd: l'm sorry, I'm sorry! Lane: Let me see your other hand! George Floyd: Please, Mr. Officer. Lane: Both hands. George Floyd: l didn‘t do nothing. Lane: Put your fucking hands up right now! Let me see yOur other hand. Shawanda Hill: let him see your other hand George Floyd: All right. What l do though? What we do Mr Ofcer? Lane: Put your hand up there. Put your fucking hand up there! Jesus Christ, keep your fucking hands on the wheel. Stayfree76 (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC) 2. In "Chauvin kneels on Floyd's neck" it says "Kueng checked Floyd's wrist but found no pulse;[1] the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance.[9]:6:46" the line the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance. is superfluous (not necessary) as the the act of calling emergency medical services meets the requirement of "attempting" to provide medical assistance. also within the same paragraph it already mentions "At approximately 8:22, the officers called for an ambulance on a non-emergency basis, escalating the call to emergency status a minute later." Stayfree76 (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC) 3. in "medical response and death" is says: "Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless." this is a loaded sentence and should be reworded to something along the lines of "Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck until the emergency services started care". it is irreverent how long the medical team was present as it is clear they were setting up. once they started care chauvin immediately removed the knee." Stayfree76 (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

A substantively similar discussion is at the thread you already started at Talk:George_Floyd#Misleading/False_Information. I suggest initial discussion take place there and avoiding multiple forums. Details specific to this article, if needed, can be continued here afterwards. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 08:55, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

the first point here is unique to this page and deserves a discussion here as it is once again, unique to this page... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stayfree76 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Its also OR. As I see it is only at this point "Lane:' Put your hand up there. Put your fucking hand up there! Jesus Christ, keep your fucking hands on the wheel." that Officer Lane tells him to put his hand on the steering wheel, nor is "up there" in any version of English I know synonymous with "on the steering wheel". In fact even not pissed I would have to have asked "where do you want me to put my hands?".Slatersteven (talk) 16:51, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

no, that is when he told him to keep his hand on the steering wheel. the only point i am making is: the wiki statement implies that the command to show hands was immediately obeyed, but it was not. the order was the show hands not put hands on steering wheel. how hard is it to not misquote someone? this is a huge problem, especially since the person in question is still alive. Stayfree76 (talk) 17:05, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

No we say "Lane drew his gun and ordered Floyd to put his hands on the steering wheel; Floyd complied and Lane holstered his weapon.", when was Floyd told to put his hands on the steering wheel?Slatersteven (talk) 17:08, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

for the love of god and everything holy. i know what is said, and it is NOT WHAT HAPPENED. are you reading the same thing as me? displaying only the pieces of history that you want to show/use is NOT the same thing as showing or describing what happened. i cant even believe i have to discuss this. its right there, in plain english. In fact even not pissed I would have to have asked "where do you want me to put my hands? the fact you bring in what YOU would do clearly highlights your bias... i am not trying to say anything how i feel, i simply want correct and concise wording. you must understand this is a very sensitive topic and any, even small, push in either direction can be VERY damaging. Stayfree76 (talk) 23:00, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Stayfree76, I feel like maybe we haven't been clear on what "original research" means. Original research is when you or I -- for instance, from watching the video or reading the transcript -- say "Look! You can see right there what happened. Person X said Y!" That's original research. The video and transcript are of ZERO USE to us here on Wikipedia. We wait until the media reports on what happened in the video or what's said in the transcript. We don't report on the video ourselves. —valereee (talk) 23:29, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

here is the problem. WHERE IS THE SOURCES THAT ARE USED FOR THAT STATEMENT DOES IT SAY THAT? here they are [1][2] the nytimes article even says "By combining videos from bystanders and security cameras, reviewing official documents and consulting experts, The New York Times reconstructed in detail the minutes leading to Mr. Floyd’s death." IS THAT NOT ORIGINAL RESEARCH?? the BBC source says "After approaching the car, one of the officers, Thomas Lane, pulled out his gun and ordered Mr Floyd to show his hands. In an account of the incident, prosecutors do not explain why Mr Lane thought it necessary to draw his gun."... i this point i dont think you have a right to tell me to stop posting. i am not even using my own sources. I AM CLICKING ON THE SOURCES THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE HAS RIGHT NEXT TO THE SENTENCES I AM INQUIRING ABOUT. the transcipt and other things are there just because for some reason PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN. Stayfree76 (talk) 00:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

"Original research" means "original to Wikipedia". That is, the policy forbids us from doing the review and reconstruction. It does not apply to us quoting the research done by the NYT. That is citing research by the source, not original research done by us.--Khajidha (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Khajidha, that is not correct per WP:RS reliable sources and also why is everyone dodging the fact that the nytimes "supposed rs" CONTRADICTS THE STATEMENTS IN THE WIKI.:

1. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article.

2. Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content. The reliability of a single study depends on the field. Avoid undue weight when using single studies in such fields. Studies relating to complex and abstruse fields, such as medicine, are less definitive and should be avoided. Secondary sources, such as meta-analyses, textbooks, and scholarly review articles are preferred when available, so as to provide proper context.

3. Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Stayfree76 (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Stayfree76, please stop using TYPOGRAPHICS and just provide the source that says these things. Here's the template:

Source X says Y. Let's change "current wording" to "suggested wording."

That is literally the necessary and most persuasive length of argument that needs to be made. —valereee (talk) 01:14, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, instead of criticizing the way i post. FIX THE ARTICLE. did you even read the initial discussion point? I DID EXACTLY THAT.

"1. In "Initial Events" it says "Lane drew his gun and ordered Floyd to put his hands on the steering wheel; Floyd complied and Lane holstered his weapon."

this is not accurate according to the complaint, which states "As Officer Lane began speaking with Mr. Floyd, he pulled his gun out and pointed it at Mr. Floyd’s open window and directed Mr. Floyd to show his hands. When Mr. Floyd put his hands in the steering wheel, Lane put his gun back in its holster." and [body cam audio transcript] which shows that mr floyd did not comply initially." NEW: that does not even include the fact your own sources contradict the statements in the wiki and one of them IS NOT USEABLE PER WP:RS. this is getting comical. if this remains unfixed i will just hit up the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Stayfree76 (talk) 01:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Stayfree76, by "the complaint" you mean a document that constitutes original research? —valereee (talk) 01:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, in my original discussion point yes. can you please use your brain. the reason i initially used that source IS BECAUSE IT IS AN ALREADY USED CITED SOURCE IN THE **** WIKI. there is literally a sentence that says "According to the criminal complaint against Chauvin, Lane asked Chauvin twice if they should move Floyd onto his side,[54]" COME ON. the source directly following the STATEMENT ITSELF DOES NOT EVEN SUPPORT THE STATEMENT. the bbc article...........are you incapable of reading? i have literally linked to more than 5 sources showing the wiki is wrong, plus 3 or so more THAT THE WIKI USES ALREADY THAT SHOWS THE WIKI IS WRONG.... FIX IT. Stayfree76 (talk) 01:42, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

The fact it's used, attributed, for one thing doesn't mean it can be used for everything. Honestly Stayfree, you are being so insulting that you make me completely uninterested in continuing to help you figure us out. I'm not sure what you think you're going to accomplish by this kind of behavior, but I'm done. —valereee (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

It took you this fuckin' long? Val, you have the patience of a saint. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm a frickin' patsy is what's the truth —valereee (talk) 02:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

you said it was ORIGINAL RESEARCH, not me... the policy states it is never ok. "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[a] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." BUT that doesnt even matter. the BBC article literally doesnt even say what wikipedia says, and the other one is also an analysis and doesnt meet reliable source or OR policy guidelines and cant be used........ this is disgusting. how am i looking like the bad guy when you are are blatantly directing the wikipedia article with your emotions and feeling.Stayfree76 (talk) 02:18, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: Well, we've moved from bold caps to just caps, so they are making an effort to meet you halfway. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:26, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Let's look at Stayfree's initial points one by one. 1) "Lane drew his gun and ordered Floyd to put his hands on the steering wheel; Floyd complied and Lane holstered his weapon." At worst, you could say that this is too compressed, but it does not present any falsehoods. 2) "did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance." Providing assistance implies personal action, not just calling for an ambulance. 3) Whatever the medical personnel were doing, there is no reason to continue to press down on a person who is completely motionless and unresponsive, so the "despite" wording is appropriate. --Khajidha (talk) 02:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

lets look at the source that the wiki has right behind the statement AGAIN. see bbc it says "After approaching the car, one of the officers, Thomas Lane, pulled out his gun and ordered Mr Floyd to show his hands." are you kidding me?...... to the second point. the only source that follows the statement does not conform to WP:RS anyways. it has it right here in the article... "By combining videos from bystanders and security cameras, reviewing official documents and consulting experts, The New York Times reconstructed in detail the minutes leading to Mr. Floyd’s death."

this entire component of the wiki "the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance.[9]:6:46 According to the criminal complaint against Chauvin, Lane asked Chauvin twice if they should move Floyd onto his side,[54] and Chauvin said no.[9]:7:02" ARE NOT USING RELIABLE SOURCES. Stayfree76 (talk) 02:32, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Stayfree76, your problem is that you are a single-purpose account who gives an extremely strong impression of trying to cast the death of George Floyd as a perfectly routine matter of reasonable restraint gone awry, in contravention to pretty much every reliable source out there.

That may not be your intention, but it's how you come across, especially with the SHOUTING.

Instead of the arm-waving and personal conclusions, you should make specific proposals in the form "change X to Y based on Z source", and the source should be reliable and preferably more than one.

Otherwise I think you're going to end up topic-banned. Guy (help!) 10:26, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

i am not a single purpose account. i have also edited Cherokee Nation. you shouldnt confuse new with single purpose and maybe also stop assuming what you think my intentions are. i will tell you what they are, right here, on record. my intentions are "to ensure the wikis in question do not contradict each other or contradict the reliable sources used to qualify certain statement". its kind of weird when a wiki article says something, cites a source, then when you open the source it says nothing in line with what the wiki says. im not pulling these sources out of my butt. i am just clicking on the sources that are linked right after the sentences. step 1. read sentence, step 2. click cited source, step 3. read cited source, step 4. notice they are different, step 5. request for wiki article fix, step 6. get dumped on by everyone and their cats. Stayfree76 (talk) 20:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey, my cats are innocent! InedibleHulk (talk) 03:38, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I`m pescetarian 107.217.84.95 (talk) 23:35, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Is there a place to mention previous use of chokeholds ?

As the article states, the use of chokeholds in law enforcement was banned by the Minneapolis city council in June. However, I believe it would be interesting to mention the previous use and prevalence of this technique. For instance: Minneapolis police used neck restraints at least 237 times since 2015, and that force knocked someone unconscious 44 times. Fa suisse (talk) 04:18, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The ban is in the body at § State civil rights action. You can be bold and edit it directly, or place your suggested wording here for discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 04:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Is it in dispute that Chauvin was a cop?

I find the stated rationale for this reversion dubious at minimum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&diff=970219732&oldid=970218905

soibangla (talk) 17:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand why it was removed or what it has to do with the courts. It is certainly relevant. O3000 (talk) 17:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what's going on with the edit summary, but I do think adding "by a police officer" was repetitious when very next sentence explains "Derek Chauvin, a white police officer...". --RaiderAspect (talk) 05:39, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Deciding that Floyd was killed by Chauvin is a matter for the courts. The coroner has decided WHAT killed Floyd, but it has not been determined WHO, if anyone, killed him. WWGB (talk) 06:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

It seems there is a disconnect between killed and murdered. Kill is defined as "cause the death of", while murder is a criminal charge: "kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation". Kill is not necessarily tied to the legal system. It is possible to kill someone but not be found guilty of murder. As for reliable sources, I only see a few saying Chauvin killed Floyd:

• "Floyd, a Black man, was killed on May 25 by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, ..." Los Angeles Times. July 29, 2020
• "Chauvin was charged four days after he killed Floyd ..." Star Trinune. June 8, 2020

Most other RSs instead say Chauvin is charged with Floyd's murder.—Bagumba (talk) 07:09, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• • https://www.dictionary.com/browse/murder# " to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously Murder " the killing of one human being by another " https://www.dictionary.com/browse/homicide?s=t " the killing of one human being by another " Homicide " Homicide is the act of one human killing another " Murder is not just a legal term or is homicide...the only difference between the words killing homicide and murder is that murder and homicide being essentially synonyms by definition and involve persons except to those who perceive any sentient being as self aware..while to kill may apply to any living thing...if George Floyd was killed as in the title of the article and it was obviously perpetrated by another " human " it was a murder and/or a homicide as both the victim and the perpetrator were people..the point being the title of this article should read the murder of George Floyd or the homicide of George Floyd the former being more appropriate as not only inquiring minds want to know..the law has nothing to do with it 107.217.84.95 (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)