User talk:Folly Mox

Precious anniversary

Precious

Seven years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:21, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Per your comment to SchroCat, I noticed a discussion on about a guideline for infoboxes for biographies. I believe the guideline could be short:

• In an encyclopedia, people expect to see in the beginning when and where a person was born and died, and what the person is notable for. In the German Wikipedia, and the Italian Wikipedia, that is given consistently in the first sentece of the lead. I the English Wikipedia, however, the MoS recommends to "free" that first sentence" from the places of birth and death, almost relying on an infobox to carry that out. - So simple.

The only question might be about what else to put in. - Beethoven - installed by the arb who wrote the infoboxes case as the community consensus - is a good example. - I won't participate in infobox discussions if I can avoid it, so won't go to the discussion, but I felt I had to support the cogent arguments by Voceditenore for Mozart. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Gerda, it's good to see you! I'm also a believer in brief guidance, and find many guideline pages way too detailed and specific, but I guess most of it comes from discussions people spent time on, so I don't trip about it. I think what else to add to an infobox (biographical) really depends on the subject. For a modestly influential linguist or historian, for example, it's pretty interesting for me personally to see whom they influenced, which might not really have a great place in the prose, and would be towards the bottom of the article. A creative genius whose legacy influences whole generations, though— it doesn't make any sense to put influenced in the infobox: too many examples, and at that point we're just playing favourites. Notable family members or spouses are nice to have, but if we're just duplicating the first paragraph by removing the sentence structure, what really is the point?

My take on the whole thing is that, on Wikipedia, people will argue about anything. Everybody has things that are really meaningful to them, and some people have more hills they're willing to die on than others, but it's honestly a little refreshing to have arguments done properly, where it's clear we're on the same team, just disagreeing on how to improve the project, and people here are thinky types who can read and write!

Hope it's as beautiful where you are as it was here today. Perfect day for pressure washing. Be well! Folly Mox (talk) 00:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I think the list in the discussion should be more detailed, such as showing that there was no RfC in 2019 - 2020 - 2021, at least to my knowledge. - I made one for composers when Mozart was discussed. When we discussed Sibelius I asked how many RfCs we'd need to accept that treating infoboxes as a territory war subject is not a good way to spend editors' time. The answer is open ;) - The great Brian Boulton gave us directions in 2013 (link on my user page, look for "a fresh look"): have an infobox but keep it concise. - The day was great yesterday, pics to be uploaded right next. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:53, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

May songs

my story today

three pics of yesterday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

five of today - more pleasant music (just heard!) if you click on songs --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Pentecost was full of music, and my story today is that 300 years ago today, Bach became Thomaskantor, with BWV 75, writing music history. - As for the composers, Puccini has a suggestion now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:55, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, Gerda! Is Pentecost this past weekend? My weekend was less joyous, but I'll refrain from spilling my feelings and problems onto this talkpage. Folly Mox (talk) 00:20, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, and I did the same. Pentecost was past weekend (in Germany, for two days, and I fixed the link above), and it was not as planned, but it was good, perhaps even better than planned. For dessert, I didn't get only the wonderful cakes my cousin made (pictured), but - last night when I was too tired to share - the yt video of the 6 May concert, Misatango and Te Deum. I put it there and on my user page. - Best wishes for your feelings! (When I read THERAPY I thought of what Doug shares.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:25, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

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World War II and the history of Jews in Poland: Arbitration case opened

Hello Folly Mox,

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence. Please add your evidence by April 04, 2023, which is when the first evidence phase closes. Submitted evidence will be summarized by Arbitrators and Clerks at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence/Summary. Owing to the summary style, editors are encouraged to submit evidence in small chunks sooner rather than more complete evidence later.

Details about the summary page, the two phases of evidence, a timeline and other answers to frequently asked questions can be found at the case's FAQ page.

For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Wang Guangyang

Greetings. First, thanks for your work on Siege of Yong'an. Sorry I missed your initial ping to me on that AfD. Would you mind taking a look at the above article? It has the same citation issues, and I sent it to draft, but the editor simply moved it back to mainspace. Before I send it to AfD, I thought I might reach out to you first. But let me know if this is a bother, and I won't do it again. We get about 5 of these articles a month over at NPP. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Onel5969: no worries about the missed ping! You have the reputation of a very busy person and I'm never in a hurry here. If it's on the order of five a month I'd be glad to try to look at each of them, but sourcing like this is definitely going to show up with regularity, because to a person who works with the Chinese historical record, the citations as provided are sufficient to verify the text. And any topic that's been given treatment in one of the standard official histories is going to meet WP:N on that fact alone.

The linked article is outside my era of expertise, and given my current source access the level of improvement I've done to the article here is pretty much all I'll be able to manage. Hope that's adequate. I'm typically not particularly active so if you send me an article and don't hear back for a few days, feel free to take it to AfD or whatever so another subject matter editor can spruce it up. Wikipedia:WikiProject Chinese history is pretty dead, but Wikipedia:Wikiproject China has a few watchers who might be able to help with this sort of thing too. Thanks again. Folly Mox (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Hu Zhongzao

Hi. Hate to bother you again, but could you take a look at this one as well? I wish these editors would simply take the time to improve the sourcing themselves. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

No worries @Onel5969: I'm unusually unbusy irl at the moment. I was able to track down the references that lacked any citation (fortunately the author provided the exact text they were paraphrasing). The article still does have some issues, and I think I mentioned all of them in the edit summary. I also wish everyone would just cite content properly the first time around. Folly Mox (talk) 16:00, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks as always. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:12, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

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 Erledigt in this edit. Folly Mox (talk) 07:33, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Lady Xiahou

Hi. Another one, if you have the time.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Onel5969: I'm realizing now I never actually responded to you when I fixed up the cites in this article, but I addressed it the day you posted here I think. I do see a lot of biographies cited in this manner that have been in mainspace for years, and I've started improving the citation style whenever they pop onto my watchlist, but I'm sure there are hundreds and I'm not planning on working on them systematically anytime soon. Please don't hesitate to keep pinging me about Chinese history drafts with unclear citation styles though. I'm happy to help out in that regard. Folly Mox (talk) 00:42, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

No worries. Saw your changes, and marked it reviewed. Thanks for your efforts, and I'm from NYC. Not shy or hesitant. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 01:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 28

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Spring and Autumn period, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Guoyu.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:02, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Oops yeah I can never remember what we translate the titles of books as. I'll check it out, unsupervised cronjob 💚 Folly Mox (talk) 06:57, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

 Erledigt in this edit. Folly Mox (talk) 07:39, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Continuing from ANI

Hi Folly Mox, Just to finish a thought from ANI: I agree with you that a person armed with any decent work of scholarship could fairly easily go through it and add sources to various things. But this is not how the "add sources" task is structured: instead, it presents new editors with a bunch of things tagged for not having sources, and asks them to find sources. In my opinion, this format favors much less promising approaches like the one I described. (And in my experience fixing something tagged as unsourced is often not really about finding a source, but rather about dealing with a content issue like OR or SYNTH.) Anyhow, it is not the most important thing in the world, & I am happy to agree to disagree about it (having now satisfied my compulsion to write one last thing on the topic). Happy editing, JBL (talk) 17:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@JayBeeEll: having had a look at how the "add source" task is set up, I find myself in complete agreement with you that it seems significantly more difficult than copyediting. I guess I've been wikipeding wrong all these years 🙃 Folly Mox (talk) 19:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Chinese noble titles in the imperial period

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Chinese noble titles in the imperial period, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "generic title" error. References show this error when they have a generic placeholder title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 21:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Bot:Qwerfjkl (bot)#Task 17. I've removed the reference. The link was dead anyway. Folly Mox (talk) 21:35, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Redirects without mention in the target

Hi Folly Mox, When creating redirects, please check that the target article actually mentions the redirect term somewhere, as its absence can be confusing to the reader, particularly if it is a foreign language term. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 05:22, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

That's a pretty good idea! I'll make sure it's somewhere prominent. Apologies for the oversight. Folly Mox (talk) 05:25, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 05:30, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	This is awesome. Thank you so much for giving me something to laugh about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Princess Dongxiang

Hi again. Here's another one, if you wouldn't mind taking a look. Thanks. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Onel5969: I've improved the citation style, but identified some contradictory claims, neither of which I was able to verify (which leads me to believe the second one: "it is not known..."). Most of the prose is supported by the two pages I called out specifically in Template:harvtxt. Folly Mox (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks as always. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:05, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Technical Barnstar
	I can't thank you enough for your tireless efforts to repair citations damaged by ReferenceExpander, and how far above and beyond you've gone to identify issues with the script and explain them in a way that is both easily understandable and considerate toward the script's author. — SamX [talk · contribs] 17:09, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

While I'm here, I'd like to note that I'm thinking about going through everyone whose common.js is listed at Special:WhatLinksHere/User:BrandonXLF/ReferenceExpander.js and posting a boilerplate message on their talk pages alerting them of the script's issues. I'm thinking of directing them to your summary of the script's issues on the MFD page using the {{noping}} template, but I wanted to run that by you first.

That's fine with me and should give me some impetus to finally do my homework and dig up diffs for all the example behaviours I complained to the script author about. I don't feel like I've been very fair to them, but the damage speaks for itself. If you're not already planning to, be sure to link XOR'easter's cleanup page as well with their permission, since they've gone through the trouble of finding all the potentially damaged pages and given us a hub for the cleanup work. Thanks to you for your efforts in this as well. Folly Mox (talk) 18:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Scottywong case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Scottywong. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Scottywong/Evidence. Please add your evidence by June 21, 2023, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Scottywong/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Toll roads in Great Britain

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Toll roads in Great Britain, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 04:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

 Erledigt Thanks, Bot:Qwerfjkl bot (task 17). I've addressed the error here. Folly Mox (talk) 05:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

i like

your username Iljhgtn (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Wright brothers

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Wright brothers, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "bare URL and missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

 Erledigt. Thanks Bot:Qwerfjkl bot (task 17). Looks like I accidentally deleted a title= parameter while deleting a bunch of other nonsense. Folly Mox (talk) 23:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup after a nuking bot on a blacklisted source

Hello Folly Mox - in this discussion where you said "Feel free to nuke the refs and we'll deal with it post facto," I was curious about what you found for cleaning up content and sources after the GreenC bot nuked the blacklisted source.

Do you feel it's best to manually remove a blacklisted source (tedious if from hundreds of articles) or deal with sentences having no source after the bot's action?

Do you have any thoughts about whether a nuking bot could add a [citation needed] tag? This would seem to be a common need once blacklisted sources are removed, so may need some Village Pump discussion, for which I could offer a proposal, if you think it's warranted.

Following you here. Thanks. Zefr (talk) 16:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

To be completely transparent, my findings so far have been that I totally forgot about it until yesterday 😅 Fortunately User:GreenC did all of the edits consecutively in a little over twenty-four hours on 20 and 21 June, so the next step is to Wikipedia:Request a query that will return all of User:GreenC bot's edits between Special:Diff/1160957035 and Special:Diff/1161117705, which can be formatted into a worksheet similar to this. The following step is then trying to find an archived version of the usurped reference and rebuilding the citation using that.

Our use cases differ because hugedomains is just a domain squatter that no human editor would ever add to an article, so there should always be an actual source that precedes it, which got wrecked when a citation filling script followed it and updated it to the usurping website. For healthline, it's altogether possible a human editor added the reference without understanding the unreliability of the source, so it will take more effort than just locating an archived version in order to clean up after.

I think for the healthline source, it probably would have been beneficial for User:GreenC bot to drop a {{cn}} where it deleted the blacklisted citation, since medical articles are held to higher standards than many other sorts. It wouldn't have hurt to place {{cn}} tags for the hugedomains task as well. I think the only case where it's not an improvement to replace a blacklisted citation with a {{cn}} tag is when the deleted source is immediately adjacent to – and thus superfluous to – another reference.

To address your middle question, if we've come to an agreement to blacklist a source, I do think it's probably best to nuke it first and clean up afterwards, rather than performing the long manual cleanup task and add it to the blacklist afterwards. It does result in unsourced content (which as yet is not labeled as such), but it prevents adding any more instances of the source during a process that could take months. Depending on the severity of the blacklisting (hugedomains is just the equivalent of no source masquerading as a source; healthline could be actively harmful), the ideal might be to blacklist first and not nuke at all, which would prevent human editors from publishing edits to the affected articles until the source is removed or improved. This would spread out the responsibility of dealing with the cleanup, but unfortunately would require a software change, because as far as I know mediawiki doesn't surface which source is tripping the blacklist filter, or even say specifically that is why an edit cannot be saved, which is probably intentional.

So to sum up this long ramble, I feel like the best solution is drop a {{cn}} while nuking, and clean up afterwards. Unsourced content is a problem, but it's absolutely everywhere. Folly Mox (talk) 20:54, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Actually, requesting a database query for the hugedomains edits is overkill. This Special:Contributions link gives the exact results. Folly Mox (talk) 20:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

New message from Remsense

Hello, Folly Mox. You have new messages at User talk:Remsense/chinese dynasty image.
Message added 23:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

hey there, i hope you don't mind this unsolicited message, and i know this isn't necessarily your wheelhouse, but earlier this year i spent a lot of time making a new SVG graphic to replace , but I lost interest after filling it out to a considerable degree. what do you think, if you're inclined to take a look? https://ianremsen.nand.sh/中华/dynasties/ i would alter it considerably more before uploading it to wikimedia, but i'm curious if it's seen largely as useful/viable Remsense (talk) 23:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Remsense: thank you for making that! It is in my wheelhouse, as it happens, and I do have a few thoughts.

I think the current image and your new version serve slightly different purposes: the old one – while it focuses heavily on political history and military events – does contain some popouts about whatever the initial cteator considered to be very important events or people; your new version is concerned entirely with political control, with the additional benefit of adding Chinese characters, showing periods where political control was not uniform, and colour coding ruling ethnicities. I do have a lot of thoughts about the shortcomings of the current version, which I've always felt really overemphasises military events at the expense of cultural milestones.

My second thought, from a design perspective, is that your version feels a little busy, which is an almost unavoidable side effect of the colour coding and display of partial geographic control. If I were designing it from scratch with the same communication goals in mind, I'd probably choose more muted colours, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with MOS:COLOR to understand how colour choices affect accessibility for colourblind readers.

I do really like the addition of Chinese characters – which I always have a tendency to add in my topic area content work to facilitate understanding – but I could foresee some subset of people upset that simplified characters are used throughout. I personally don't think it's a big deal.

Despite the title "Timeline of Chinese Dynasties", I think some people might not appreciate the PRC or ROC showing up at the end, although it's such a thorny topic I wouldn't want to address it either.

As a general comment, I know neither your version nor the current version does this, but my dream timeline wouldn't use a linear scale for the time axis, and would give equal space to things not having to do with politics or military.

My final nitpicks are that it's not clear what is meant by "abridgement", and that although communicating political control seems to be a main goal, major differences in the strength of the central government are not highlighted super well. For example the Western Zhou, Springs and Autumns, and Warring States periods had entirely different political landscapes and dominant political theories; and the end of the Han under Xiandi just looks like it goes back to normal after what is displayed as a partial interregnum ascribed to the Yellow Turban Rebellion, when actually Emperor Xian never exercised personal authority and was controlled by warlords his entire reign (although if we go down that road, we run into the question of which of the boy– and baby-emperors of the Later Han were not completely at the mercy of their moms' families).

Anyway, I do think it has a place somewhere. Maybe Dynasties in Chinese History? You might also want to open a discussion at a more public venue than a user talk page, like Talk:Timeline of Chinese history, Talk:History of China, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China. If you're not comfortable with or ready for that, some other active users in the space you could contact directly for feedback might be Aza24, PericlesofAthens, Qiushufang, or Underbar_dk. Folly Mox (talk) 01:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, certainly, thank you so much for the involved and thoughtful reply! Each of the points you've raised (the scope; the scale; the busy-ness; the attempt to keep to 'political'/military events being a good choice or not; the precise meaning of 'abridgement', i've definitely thought of on and off too. i will think over a few things, i think I have a few idea for graphics that are a bit smaller/more focused in scope if i can't quite get this one right, and if you have any suggestions to that effect i'd be thrilled to hear them too. you gave all the feedback i could have expected and more, thank you very much. :) Remsense (talk) 02:32, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

I hope your day is better than yesterday.:) S0091 (talk) 15:10, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, User:S0091! That's really considerate of you 🥰 Folly Mox (talk) 19:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	For your tireless efforts mopping up after RefExpander, your thoughtful contributions in a wide range of discussions, and your kindness to other editors. Thank you for all that you do! Beccaynr (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Wow thank you! 🥰 I feel really grateful, although I haven't done any ReferenceExpander cleanup in a week or more, the tabs are still open in the background. Wage work picked up and other things around here have felt more critical.

Thanks for all you do too! I haven't forgotten your assistance in the early days of RefExpander cleanup lo these many moons ago. 💛 Folly Mox (talk) 02:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I found the RefExpander work a particular challenge, as it tended to draw me into deeper reviews of articles and sources, and then I wandered off to chase other squirrels, but I have been so happy to see the team effort and huge amount of work accomplished. Cheers! Beccaynr (talk) 03:19, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Mongol leaders

Please, can you also help me to translate from Chinese these Mongols: zh:董狐狸, zh:长秃, zh:长昂? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.96.50 (talk) 08:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page, but the short version is that I don't have 1. time right now, 2. topic area expertise, or 3. access to the source used in those articles. I hope you're able to find someone who does have those three things and is able to help you. Folly Mox (talk) 12:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

2005

I don't know whether to be upset or amused by this edit summary :-). JBL (talk) 21:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

In 2005, I was working as an IT professional. I might actually literally have been a web developer part of that year. The main issue is how the decades all start blurring together. Folly Mox (talk) 23:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Lol, phew, great. (It is disconcerting to me that my (undergraduate, essentially adult) students view the seminal events of my life through an entirely historical lens, but such is life I guess.) Happy editing, JBL (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Quick query re. Sima Yi

Just to check -- are the sections tagged 'uncited' here actually uncited or is the family section in particular using genrefs that haven't been put inline? Have ran into this before, which you corrected :) The page is OTD-eligible if those sections are either removed or cited (well, the length tag...but my opinions of those, for this length range and especially for articles with length from "many sections" rather than "giant section", are on the record), so I'm looking at it with an eye to getting it on the currently partially-but-not-fully-swapped Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 7. Vaticidalprophet 19:36, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Vaticidalprophet haha wow oh my gosh I forgot that article looks like that. It's hovered around the borders of my todo space for a long time. Looks like Family tree of Sima Yi is pretty cited, so I can port those over as applicable to Sima Yi#Family. All the sources listed are available online, so I'll be able to verify as I go.

Sima Yi#In fiction might be a little more difficult. I'll give it a go, but again I'll be relying on citations in adjacent articles. I might remove some of the pop culture stuff: saying Sima Yi is present in the Three Kingdoms expansions to things like Magic the Gathering and Puzzles and Dragons is just a weaker version of the equally true but probably not verifiable statement that Sima Yi has appeared in every pop culture artifact that does a Three Kingdoms thing.

Anyway, thanks for flagging this. I'll start taking a look at it today. I'll handle the uncitey bits first and should probably have that done in less than a day's work. Folly Mox (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh right and to answer the direct question, the sources for the Family section are present in the article already, but not inline. In fiction not so. Folly Mox (talk) 20:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Vaticidalprophet I have added citations to the two uncited sections, although I didn't source every single claim in ==In fiction==. I also undid a lot of 2022 GOCE work by resorting the alphabetic and numeric footnotes into a more standard split, improved some translations, did a bunch of other citation nonsense, and wailed in my heart to the unknowable cosmic mechanism. I believe the article is salvageable, with what music industry copywriters refer to as "deep cuts", by which I mean significant reduction in detail.

I have some more source stuff to do there, but the blockers should be resolved. Let me know if there's anything else I can do. Folly Mox (talk) 10:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! (The length tag is still a sticking point for by-the-book-eligibility, but...eh, biographies don't split well, so I'm skeptical about strict SIZERULE interpretations for them.) By the by -- "non-Western" and "pre-1600ish" are both incredibly hard to get good candidates for at OTD. If you know of any Three Kingdoms-era articles passing more or less a "good enough for DYK" standard -- or any ancient China articles at all, really -- please send them I will build 200 OTD sets. (Currently building the last three weeks of September.) Vaticidalprophet 19:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Vaticidalprophet I did at one point during the work at Sima Yi have the very sassy urge to reorganise its entire contents into ==Biography== and ==Controversy==. The main organisational problem with the article at present is how much detail there is in the Sima Yi article where there are existing subarticles (like Incident at Gaoping Tombs, Sima Yi's Liaodong campaign, Battle of Wuzhang Plains, etc.) The main Sima Yi article appears to have been subject of copypaste from some of the subarticles, which I noticed when I ran into two sources defined only by author and page number, which had full citations in the subarticles. I'm not sure I have it in me to do the necessary summarising in the main article and citation cleanup in the subarticles at present.

I'm not surprised at the difficulty getting early non-Western articles to OTD, given the differences in calendar and less rigorous timekeeping. The Three Kingdoms period is fairly well developed due to its modern popularity, but for me it's more a space I get dragged back into Corleone style than a space that calls me itself. A lot of the biographies are (unsurprisingly, since they were the organisational schema for most historical texts) relatively well-develoloped, but typically endure a non-standard citation style involving direct source quotes cited to an entire book or volume, which is more than adequate for topic area specialists but less so for the general reader. This citation style seems to have been pioneered around 2014, and spread via fait accompli to newer editors working on different time periods, but has received pushback from NPP in particular, which can be seen at threads above on this usertalk page.

Anyway, I'll keep an eye out for good enough articles (I've never participated or lurked at DYK) that have strongly supported calendar dates, all of which will be the accession or death of self-important blowhards famous dudes highly achieved individuals. I'll be sure to hit you up if I run into anything appropriate. Folly Mox (talk) 20:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

DYK eligibility can be glossed as "not a stub, not cleanup-tagged, relevant bit of the article is cited inline, ideally wouldn't make the project a laughingstock if we ran it". OTD eligiblity is a bit more impressionistic (I tend to read it as permitting a limited number of cn or other inline cleanup tags as long as there aren't banners), but in the same sphere. It's a lower bar than quality-assessment, but once you split it by "oh, and the article is relevant to a specific date somehow" things get narrow. Things like idiosyncratic citation styles are very much fine, as long as they...exist. (Because much of OTD is unwritten practice of an editor who suddenly semi-retired and now has a bunch of people filling in and debating the gaps, I'm not entirely clear on general references and OTD eligibility. I would like them to be, because it'd expand options a lot and because interpreting DYK/OTD stricter than MINREF seems not-ideal, but they're nominally eligible for 'yellow' cleanup tags, which is a ruleout.) Vaticidalprophet 20:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

Other dynasties list confucsionism as a religion. And the Han dynasty clearly followed confucsionism Zman19964 (talk) 14:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)