Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel

Result RFC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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What should be in the infobox result section?

1. Israeli victory as in this version
2. Hamas and allied victory as in this version
3. Omitted as in this version
4. Some other version

Nableezy 17:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• 2 - Israeli victory is wholly unsourced, making it a non-starter. Hamas and allied victory however is very well sourced.
  1. Le Monde (Archive link): The invasion, a military success, led to atrocities committed against civilians. ... After the military victory, the attack changed form. The carnage began. It promised to be the most terrible in Israel's history. ... For the Islamist movement, the October 7 massacre will remain a military success and a leap into the unknown, into which it risks dragging all Gazans.
  2. Washington Post: It was, by both Palestinian and Israeli accounts, a staggering and unexpected Hamas victory and an indictment of Israel’s vaunted military and intelligence services.
  3. expert view in Time (Jon Alterman): Hamas’ stunning military success on October 7 will prove to be a pyrrhic victory.
  4. expert view in The Atlantic (Natan Sachs): But this Hamas victory might prove Pyrrhic.

Now, a note on those last two. Multiple users have repeatedly distorted their meaning to claim that they are saying this was a Pyrrhic victory for Hamas. And that a Pyrrhic victory is a loss. But that is not what they are saying, they are saying this victory will prove to be pyrrhic, that Hamas won the battle but will provoke such a response so as to lose the war. But this article is not the article on the war, that is a different article and when that eventually ends that will have its own sources to discuss its result. This article however is on the opening attack, an attack that yes by all accounts included atrocities and acts of terror on civilians, but also included a military assault, destroying surveillance and automated weapons on a militarized border, breaking through a border barrier, and attacking military bases, capturing military personnel and materiel. For the topic of this article, the sources that we have that discuss the result say it was a Hamas victory. So too should the article. nableezy - 17:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nableezy: The Le Monde and the Time articles describe the initial assault on October 7 as a military victory, but this battle did not end on October 7. The Washington Post article mentions little about the fighting that took place other than the initial stun. The article in The Atlantic came out on October 7.
This article deals with the entire incursion into Israel, not just the initial breach. Of course Hamas had the upper end on October 7, but so did Germany on 22 June 1941. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 11:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Those sources were published long after the attack (which is what this article is about). If there was any doubt about the result, they would have mentioned it. M.Bitton (talk) 00:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Would they? They were focused on October 7. Unlike this article, which covers the entire Hamas invasion of Israel. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course they would since they are focused on the attack (I'm sure they know what that means). M.Bitton (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

"Of course they would" - and yet they didn't. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

That's right, they didn't mention anything other than the Hamas successful attack. M.Bitton (talk) 22:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2 — (Based on Nableezy’s reasoning). That is what is looked for: Multiple secondary reliable sources indicating a result. In this instance, several reliable sources indicate it was a Hamas victory. A key component to note is in the discussion prior to the RfC, several editors are noting about a “pyrrhic victory”. That is not what the RS say. As explained in detailed by Nableezy, the sources say it was a Hamas victory which may prove pyrrhic, not that it is a pyrrhic victory. For that reasoning as well as the multiple secondary reliable sources directly stating it was a Hamas victory, I have to go with option 2. Also, in the discussion prior to the RfC, no sources were ever linked directly saying it wasn’t a Hamas victory. If someone finds a source directly stating it wasn’t a Hamas victory, linking it here is vital for anyone against inclusion of the result being a “Hamas victory”. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  The Time source says “will”, not “may”. Drsmoo (talk) 01:56, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  WP:CRYSTAL. And that is still discussing the wider war, which does not change that it calls this attack a "stunning military success". nableezy - 02:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• 3 (weakly). A pyrrhic victory in the strict sense is one where a party is exhausted by a success. That does not apply to Hamas. The attack was like the raid on Pearl Harbor, which was a Japanese victory. If Hamas too awoke a sleeping giant, the victory still stands. The reason I lean very weakly to 3 over 2 is we're not sure how to measure success. Kill lots of Jews? Victory. Galvanize an immediate uprising by Hezbollah and West Bank Palestinians? No victory, more like Prigozhin's rebellion, which I notice also has an extended result field. So 3 weakly over 2, and definitely not 1. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• 3 Remove. This was a massacre and mass rape/mass torture of civilians, which is not typically presented through a victory/defeat lens. It is also widely described as a terrorist attack, which are also rarely presented as a victories. The inclusion of attacks on military sites, amongst the mass slaughter and rape of unarmed civilians doesn’t preclude this from being a massacre/mass rape of unarmed civilians rather than a battle. Drsmoo (talk) 01:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• 2. This was a military invasion during the course of which atrocities and war crimes undoubtedly took place. In that regard, it is analogous to (although on a much smaller scale), say, the Invasion of Poland, which is described clearly as a German victory. The war aims of the invading party were resoundingly accomplished. It is a Hamas victory, as queazy as that might make us feel. JDiala (talk) 10:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• 2. The sources cited by Nableezy are enough to say that the attack was a Hamas victory, while no sources point to it as an Israeli victory. The settlements being cleared of Hamas members in the days after Oct 7 doesn't change this, as it is not thought that Hamas's aim was to stay in them. —M3ATH (Moazfargal · Talk) 12:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• 2 as per sources that have been provided and cited in the infobox. EkoGraf (talk) 16:48, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• 4; I think we can take example from events such as the Battle of Nanking and subsequent Rape of Nanking; we list it as a Japanese victory, but then as a dot point under that victory list the rape. It would seem appropriate to do the same here; list it as a Hamas victory, but then as dot points under that victory list the various massacres. Drsmoo, I think this would also address your concerns? BilledMammal (talk) 05:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal, Use of dot is prohibited according to WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX. See also WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE Parham wiki (talk) 20:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal, there's been some back-and-forth editing regarding your !vote here. Can you restate whether you'd prefer Option 3 or Option 4? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Except it wasn't a Hamas victory at all. This article does not only cover October 7. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 08:29, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

We base our articles on reliable sources, not personal belief. nableezy - 14:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• 3 - There is no clear result. Dovidroth (talk) 14:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• 3 - Still undetermined, some cites point to a pyyrhic victory, but it's usually in a tone of maybe and not certain. Furthermore, IDF defeated Hamas forces in the end of the day and pushed Hamas out of Israel.Therefore, for now I believe option 3 is most reflective, should be left undetermined until the end of the war.homerethegreat (talk) 17:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• 3 Describing it as a military victory is itself dependent upon a disputed categorization as a "military conflict" and not a "terrorist attack". Such a thorny thing is not very well served by a black-and-white either-or parameter.

Most sources linked to are paywalled, but I do wonder whether some commentators descriptions as a (phyrric) victory for Hamas or a defeat for Israel might be relative to expectations rather than as a matter of fact. Just the unexpectedness of it all might very well be described as a "defeat" for Israel. Just not in an outcome parameter of a military infobox. – St.nerol (talk) 23:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• 2 or 4 per all above. Also according to WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX, phrases like "pyrrhic victory" should be avoided. I am not against or in favor of using Infobox civilian attack, but I strongly disagree with removing Result and using "pyrrhic victory". Battle of Chosin Reservoir, Battle of Bunker Hill and Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands were also pyrrhic victories. This field is only used for immediate results, not long term. Parham wiki (talk) 20:05, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
• 2 per the reliable sources already cited as well as others.[1][2] Regardless of what one thinks of Hamas, the military success of their attack is widely acknowledged as an undisputed fact. Even The Times of Israel describes it as such. M.Bitton (talk) 23:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
• 2 Ah, infoboxes, given the way those work, "The term used [Result] is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say." I cannot for the life of me see how the attack itself, rather than what followed, can be described as anything but a negative for Israel, in consequence a plus for their opponents and this seems to be well borne out in sources.Selfstudier (talk) 16:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
• 3 or 4, for now. The sources provided all focus on the events on October 7, while this article covers the entire Hamas invasion of Israel. Every single inch of Israeli territory captured by Hamas was retaken. Unless we were to separate the Hamas offensive and the Israeli counteroffensive into two separate articles (an absurd idea), it is beyond fantastical to label this a Hamas victory. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

  The sources provided in the lead all focus on "the Hamas-led attack on Israel" (an attack that everyone is familiar with and whose result is undisputed). M.Bitton (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

They focus almost exclusively on October 7 (one of them came out on October 7, for crying out loud!), but that was not the whole battle. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

You are asking that we use your OR (eg Every single inch of Israeli territory captured by Hamas was retaken as opposed to having completed its objectives and having taken captive a number of hostages, they returned to Gaza with their captives) over the considered views of reliable sources. That is, simply put, not an acceptable option for Wikipedia. Do you have any sources that dispute a Hamas victory or Israeli defeat for this attack? Any at all? nableezy - 20:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Did Hamas complete its objectives? Evidence points to ambitions that went far beyond carrying massacres and abductions in border towns. [3] Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

"Kill as many people and take as many hostages as possible." Yeah, think so. Anyway, do you have any sources that dispute a Hamas victory or Israeli defeat for this attack? Any at all? Not really interested in debating evidence with you, we famously have rules against such things. nableezy - 21:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Your sources cover the initial assault on October 7, and we both know the battle didn't end on that day. I propose we leave a link to an aftermath chapter, and refrain from crowning any victor for now. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

No, they cover the Hamas attack (there is only one). We are not crowning anyone, all we're doing is repeating what the RS say (an undisputed fact). M.Bitton (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the articles? One of them came out on October 7! This article has a wider scope. If I could cough up an article from 22 June 1941 that states that Germany has great success at Stalingrad, would propose to alter the result in the infobox based on that? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course I did. So what if one of them came out on the 7th? The others came out much later and they all talk about the same thing (The Hamas attack that they describe as a military success). You're welcome to change the other articles (based on what the Rs say about them), but for this one the result is clear and undisputed. This is similar to the Attack on Pearl Harbor (what happened afterwards is another matter). M.Bitton (talk) 22:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

We are going in circles, and I have said what I have to say. If other users accept your logic, I'll take note of that. (As for your Pearl Harbor comparison, the Japanese made no attempt to invade and occupy parts of Hawaii.) Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Actually, Hamas had neither the intention nor the means to occupy the territory. Those who describe it as a terrorists attack have to agree with this part. That said, let's see what the others think. M.Bitton (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

You could have just said no to my question. nableezy - 23:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3: Three reasons, (1) This was a terrorist attack, hostage taking, massacre, and mass rape/mass torture of civilians, without clear consensus from RS, this is not something WP should present as a victory/defeat, any more than 9/11, the Iranian hostage crisis, or the ISIS or Boko Haram attacks should be characterized as a victory for the terrorists; (2) The meaning of "victory" is disputed and qualified in sources presented; and related (3) While Hamas believes it has achived their horrible objectives, there is no indications RS has a consensus what they did constitutes a victory.  // Timothy :: talk  17:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

  There are clear differences. There were intense gun battles between two military sides, one of who was 3,000 soldiers/militants strong. Did you see the RS above that call this both a "victory" and "military success" for Hamas? VR _talk 13:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 per Drsmoo. Cremastra (talk) 22:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2. I'm really not seeing any reason for Option 3 here. There are clearly RS that consider this a Hamas victory. Hamas itself has claimed victory. At best we can add an attribution to the "Hamas military victory" here, but there are too many RS to ignore this entirely.VR _talk 13:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2, although I wouldn't be upset at 3. The lack of nuance required by infoboxes like these is dumb and causes problems. That said, most coverage does present the attack as successful and as a victory for Hamas; the argument that it's phyrric doesn't really matter, since that would still mean the attack was a victory (as mentioned above, we describe the Attack on Pearl Harbor as a victory for Japan.) And even in terms of that, the sources are hardly unanimous - see eg. NYT articles like this one, which discuss not just the attack but its long-term implications in a way that clearly frame it as a success for Hamas. More generally, plenty of sources have been produced describing the attack as a Hamas victory; nobody has really presented any sources disagreeing with them. The argument that they failed to hold territory seems nonsensical since that wasn't their objective (it's like saying Pearl Harbor was a failure because it failed to capture Hawaii.) Likewise, the scope of the article is plainly the attack itself and not the entire conflict that followed, so the argument that they may eventually be defeated doesn't mean anything. The argument that Hamas' goals are not... sensical makes a bit more sense to me, in the sense that Hamas' main goal seems to have been to draw Israel into a conflict by killing a lot of civilians and that's obviously a goal of (at best!) more debatable military worth than eg. blowing up aircraft carriers, but ultimately we're not the ones who should be deciding that framing, and sources like the NYT one I linked (which clearly treat it as a victory in a coherent, if awful and dangerous, strategy) push me over into option 2. --Aquillion (talk) 07:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Some who have commented here seem to believe that this was a Pearl Harbor-style raid, where Hamas did not aim to capture and hold territory. This is clearly a misunderstanding. Hamas fighters in Sderot stood their ground until they were defeated on October 9 [4]. In the Battle of Sufa, Hamas captured an outpost and were subsequently dislodged by IDF reinforcements. I have mentioned this earlier, but the Washington Post reported that Hamas has planned a much deeper incursion than what ultimately transpired [5]. The "Hamas victory" would have been much more believable had the Hamas fighters simply accomplished their wicked goals and then withdrawn back to Gaza on their own terms, but that is not what happened. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
• Strongly opposed to options 1 or 2 I don't see how an attack like this can be a victory or a defeat for either side. It may have been a successful attack for Hamas and a failure of security for the IDF, but I don't see how that makes it a "victory" or a "defeat" for either. Omit the result parameter or describe the results in a different manner. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support military success rather than the term victory, which is supported by RS. 7 October has been widely reported on as a massive Israeli intelligence and military defeat, and that's evident from the amount of casualties. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:52, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3 There will be no winners in this war. No side, Israel or Hamas, will be victorious, regardless of any claims made by either party for the purpose of propaganda: The Palestinians in Gaza are suffereing what they call a second Naqba, where more than a million people were forced to evacuate their homes; about 18,000 Palestinians lost their lives and most Gaza is now rubbles. This is an utter catastrophe! Israel suffered a brutal terror attack, with about 1400 killed, most civilians. Israeli citizens were butchered, raped, burned to death, tortured, and bout 140 Israelis were kidnapped to Gaza. So speaking about a vicotry of either side is absurd. Omit the result parameter. GidiD (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

  But the Israeli attacks on the Palestinians are not within the scope of this article? VR _talk 20:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 Mainly per TimothyBlue. The attack can't be called a Hamas victory because the attackers were ultimately repulsed with heavy losses. But an Israeli victory doesn't seem right either, because they were taken by surprise and suffered extremely heavy casualties too. Rather than act as umpires and call this game for one side or another, that leaves 3. Coretheapple (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

  No-one is acting as an umpire. We're directly quoting RS.VR _talk 04:22, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 I can't imagine putting "victory" in this article under any circumstances. Sure, they did technically successfully carry out their goal of murdering and raping and burning through towns, but this is kind of like if you called 911 a "Victory for al-Qaeda". EytanMelech (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  Option 3 as this was a terrorist attack and if it were a "battle", Hamas would have lost it by ending up repelled back to where they came from, which was well-described in RS. बिनोद थारू (talk) 01:15, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  I got a question बिनोद थारू, do you have a source confirming that “Hamas would have lost”? Earlier in the discussion, it was mentioned/linked that there was several sources saying Hamas won, so a direct source saying they lost is needed to counteract those sources saying it was a Hamas victory. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  Of course, [6], with Washington Post being listed in WP:RS/P. बिनोद थारू (talk) 01:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  I should point out that source doesn’t say Hamas would have lost (“lost” or “defeat” isn’t in the article). That said, the article does say, “Hamas’s pronouncements welcoming a broader conflict evoke statements by al-Qaeda leaders in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, noted Rita Katz, executive director of the SITE Intelligence Group, a private organization that studies the ideology and online communications of extremist groups… Even if its current leadership is effectively destroyed, she said, Hamas and its followers will continue to regard Oct. 7 as a victory. That’s partly because the group unquestionably succeeded in focusing the world’s attention on the Palestinian conflict, she said…‘It’s the first time I can remember that Hamas has become so prominent on a global scale,’”. Technically, that article provided a 5th source (4 others provided at the beginning of the survey section), which state Hamas victory. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  I should point out that source doesn’t say Hamas would have lost (“lost” or “defeat” isn’t in the article).

  Exactly, that's why Option 3 is the best. This was just a terrorist attack. They just spread terror to Israeli civilians and foreign nationals even though they were pushed back the same day (they lost militarily). They are saying in that article "al Quaeda won the 9/11 bombing" because they spread fear. So as the RS mention it, "won" is being taken out of context here. बिनोद थारू (talk) 01:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  If you don’t mind me asking, since you say the sources are being taken out of context, could you go through and explain why the other four sources and that specific quote from WaPo is being taken out of context? That would help myself and others. The main reason for this is since you did just say the sources listed do state it was a victory (aka option 2), but if all 5 currently listed/linked are being taken out of context, an explanation for each would be beneficial. Fully up to you if you would like to spend the time to do that, but personally, I think it would be beneficial for the discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 of course. This was the worst act of terror by... not sure how we want to call people who commit act of terror (pick one: peace fighters, militias, terrorists). Israel endured significant losses but successfully quelled this wave of terror. While it can be seen as a victory in terms of neutralizing the threat, characterizing it as a clear triumph is challenging. Importantly, the perpetrators gained nothing substantive from this act of terror, rendering it futile and destructive. The ultimate victory, often associated with the elimination of organizations like Hamas, remains for the State of Israel a goal for the future. Let's exercise caution in drawing immediate conclusions and strive for a more neutral perspective at this point. Hence option thee. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 03:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3, per Drsmoo, Timothy and EytanMelech. One can "succeed" or "fail" at committing a terrorist attack, but never "win" it. More broadly, I agree with GidiD and Oleg that this terrible succession of events cannot be treated as a clear "victory" or "loss" for either side. François Robere (talk) 12:17, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3. I'm on the fence, as while some reliable sources call it a Hamas victory, others call it a terrorist attack. If consensus goes towards it being a battle, then 2. If it ends up being a terrorist incident, then 3. DrowssapSMM 15:39, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3 An "attack" (terrorist or otherwise) isn't a "victory", it's just an attack. While there were numerous intel failures, that doesn't mean it was a "victory". WP:NPOV applies in spades here. Buffs (talk) 21:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Buffs, actually, per WP:NPOV, option 2 must be used as NPOV states, All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. Above is 5 separate RS sources which clearly state it was a “Hamas victory”. No one has yet to provide a single source stating it was a “Hamas defeat” or “Israeli victory”. To actually keep NPOV, we have to follow what the RS says and not insert our own narrative by ignoring the RS. I’m glad you brought up NPOV in your !vote as I don’t think anyone else did. But yeah, per WP:NPOV, we have to go with option 2, otherwise we insert our own narrative by ignoring RS. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Few editors are claiming it was a "Hamas defeat" or "Israeli victory". Most are arguing that it was neither a victory nor a defeat for either side as it was not a conventional battle. I suspect the majority of RSs about this event do not refer to it as a victory for either side. Also, RSs describing the event as a victory for one side or the other are not necessarily wrong, but it doesn't mean the event should be encyclopedically categorized as a victory. See WP:NEWSSTYLE — "The encyclopedic and journalistic intent and audience are different." Also, WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE — "the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored [...]) The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

(Yes, this is a WP:TLDR reply (summary: remove the reuslt section for every article/engagement for this war otherwise option 2 is the only option) – I agree with most of that. That said, several sources do describe conventional battles like Battle of Re'im oder Battle of Sderot oder Battle of Zikim. Heck, during the battle of Zikim, IDF used the Eitan AFV for the first time. If the infobox result section is "ignored" (i.e. not filled or marked as inconclusive in like Option 3 is for), then when is it ever really used? We have clear RS stating it was a victory for Hamas and we have clear conventional battles/engagements which involved conventional fighting. Based on all of that, the infobox should state it was a Hamas victory. Ignoring it devalues the use of RS, which clearly use the words "Hamas victory" and basically mean the result section is 100% irrelevant and shouldn't even be used. In the war, we have the Battle of Beit Hanoun, which has two sources saying Israel claims victory. The infobox is marked as "Israel claims victory" with those two sources. In this instance we have not two but five sources indicating Hamas victory. It is clear there is only one option and that is option 2, given every other circumstance the result section has ever been used for. Option 3 would be used for when sources disagree with each other. That is no where near the case as there isn't a single source stating the result was inconclusive OR matter of fact anything besides Hamas victory. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Kommentar. All Battle of Re'im and Battle of Sderot and Battle of Zikim article say Israeli Victory and back with reliable sources. Therefore, ignoring option 3 for the moment, the article should say Israeli Victory instead. बिनोद थारू (talk) 01:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Wrong. Sources say Israeli victory for those. They do not say Israeli victory for this. They say Hamas victory. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Wrong. Sources say Israeli victory for those

So either option 1 or option 3? बिनोद थारू (talk) 02:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

See MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS Parham wiki (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

How does MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS, which reads "As with any guideline, there will be exceptions where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox. Prominent examples include the ISO 639 and similar codes in Infobox language and most of the parameters in Chembox.", apply here?

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

It was wrong, I mean WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX. Parham wiki (talk) 10:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Repeating your assertions ad nauseum doesn't make them any better or convincing. The majority of the people here disagree with your conclusions. 5 sources (I only see 4) may mention it, but at least one was written the same day, hardly enough time to fully comprehend the full actions of what happened. Likewise, all of those publications are politically left-of-center to left and do not represent the balance of available sources. If you want to state that "opinions were varied" and cite some of these, that would be appropriate. Summarizing everything into these opinions is not accurate nor does it satisfy WP:NPOV. YMMV...reasonable people can disagree on their conclusions based on the same facts. Buffs (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I disagree that I was bludgeoning, given I replied specifically to two !votes, but I will refrain from further comments. I also recommend/suggest you do not comment further in this discussion since you are involved enough to call out potential bludgeoning. Cheers y’all! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Okaaaaaaaaay... your responses don't actually respond to any criticism. Buffs (talk) 07:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• option 3 this is a terrorist attack, not a military operation. It doesn't have victors IMO. I got here via WP:AN. Hobit (talk) 01:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

  Why can't it be both? Plenty of military operations are conducted by groups categorized by some as terrorist. See List of wars and battles involving the Islamic State, a widely recognized terrorist group. VR _talk 02:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

  There are things that are both. But military operations have military goals. This doesn't appear to have. Or at least I can't see what it could be. Hobit (talk) 05:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 agree with Hobit. Andre🚐 00:37, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3 or 4 - Even when non-state actors have struck purely military targets (see: Camp Speicher massacre), we've followed reliable sources describing them as terrorist attacks and used the appropriate infobox. And of course here most of the victims were civilians, so outlets like the NYT and CNN are indeed reporting it as terrorism. At the very least the result should be something more descriptive like "Attack repelled with heavy losses, beginning of 2023 Israel-Hamas war". A "pyrhhic victory" is by definition not an actual "victory" for Hamas. PrimaPrime (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

  Take a look at Northern Iraq offensive (June 2014), which was launched by ISIL, a universally condemned terrorist group. We describe that as ISIL victory. VR _talk 02:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 - October 7, unlike 9/11, was a military operation which included - but was not limited to - the use of terrorism. The tactical goals (breaching the barrier, overwhelming the Iron Dome), the operational goals (neutralizing the IDF's Gaza Division for a day or two, taking an unprecedented amount of hostages as a bargaining chip to be exchanged at a later date with Palestinian prisoners, killing as many possible IDF soldiers - reportedly 373, which makes 7 October 2023 the bloodiest single day by number of military deaths in Israel's history with the exception of 6 October 1973 - and sowing panic to the "enemy society" through terrorist massacres), and the strategic goals (resurrecting the Palestinian issue, bringing global attention to Hamas, and seriously throwing back - if not destroying - the Saudi-Israeli normalization process), goals described as such by either Hamas itself or by RS, had all succeeded by the evening of October 7. It can be argued that one RS-described strategic goal of Hamas was unsuccessful (causing a large-scale regional war by making Hezbollah or Iran enter the fight in full force), but even this strategic goal has not completely failed, as the war has transcended the Gaza Strip and the actions of such groups as Hezbollah or the Houthis in the last month show that Hamas isn't really isolated from its allies in the "Axis of Resistance" after 75 days of fighting. The argument that an attack cannot be a victory does not stand, as per this and this. The argument that the use of terrorism invalidates a military operation's victorious outcome also doesn't stand: this massacre is described as part of that offensive, and the offensive is described as a victory for the side that committed the massacre. And this massacre was part of that surprise attack, which is given as a victory for the attacking side. October 7 was not just a massacre, it was a complex military operation that partially resulted in a massacre. Of course, atrocities such as the Re'im music festival massacre should not be described as Hamas victories and are rightly not described as such in their respective articles. But this here is the article for the military operation, which was a success for Hamas in its objectives, and a failure for Israel, as described by officials of Israel, Hamas, and by numerous RS. As per the above, I'm for Option 2 ("Hamas victory" or "Hamas military victory"). Makeandtoss's option "Hamas military success" can also be discussed. BubbleBabis (talk) 02:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2 per sources referenced above or Option 3 because this isn't finished and WP:RECENTISM is a consideration. There's no rush with these things. There will be time after this is finished and academics have written about it to reflect on it. TarnishedPath^talk 05:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Considering together @IOHANNVSVERVS observation above that "the purpose of an infobox [is] to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article" and that our article does not describe this as a victory for either side, this whole discussion seems moot. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 09:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

See MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS Parham wiki (talk) 11:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

9/11 is not described as a victory for Al Qaeda even though the terrorist organisation saw it as a war. By calling it a Hamas victory it is legitimatising a terrorist attack by saying it’s just a war. Salandarianflag (talk) 11:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCONTENT; That article does not use the infobox military conflict". However, I have no problem using Infobox civilian attack. Parham wiki (talk) 11:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be the best course of action. Salandarianflag (talk) 11:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Since the civilians have been the prime target during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war (regardless of whether the attackers admit it or not), why should this part be different from the rest? Are some civilians more civilians than the others? M.Bitton (talk) 11:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Parham wiki: There are always exceptions. How are the exceptions to MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE relevant to this particular issue? —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 14:56, 26 December 2023 (UTC) —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 14:56, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

It was wrong, I mean WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX. Parham wiki (talk) 14:58, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Right. Were you thinking about any particular advice therein? I note the part that says that the result parameter may be contentious since the infobox "does not have the scope to reflect nuances", and that the parameter therefore may be omitted. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 17:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Nothing is written about terrorist attacks and unwritten deleted RS's statements. Parham wiki (talk) 18:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

There is no reason for the article (and in the Infobox) not to describe it as a victory (given that the RS do). M.Bitton (talk) 11:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 4 Neither of the options seem optimal, but it is anything but a Hamas victory IMO. Something like Hamas strategic failure (based on how Operation Barbarossa is written, which had immediate gains for Germany, but doomed them on the long term) would be fitting imo. Best to wait until the war ends, as that can change the outcome of attack. However, on the current track, Israel is poised to seize Gaza and depose Hamas. Ecrusized (talk) 20:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  Comment. There were no gains at all for Hamas. They were repelled at the end of this battle. बिनोद थारू (talk) 20:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3. 'Victory' lacks a clear definition, especially in the context of an attack that has been repelled at great costs to the attackers. The example of 9/11 given by Salandarianflag is also persuasive in this case. Marokwitz (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

  No one is asking you to determine whether this was a victory, we follow what RS say. VR _talk 02:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3. The attacks were the commencement of a larger war still underway, and I agree with Marokwitz that "victory" is difficult to define for either at this stage one way or the other. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
• For anyone saying "attacks by terrorist groups can't have victory/defeat", please see this very long list: List of wars and battles involving the Islamic State. ISIS is a very clearly recognized terrorist group. Their dozens of military undertakings have been characterized "victory", "defeat", "indecisive". Likewise, the 2006 Hezbollah cross-border raid and Ansariya ambush are listed as a "Hezbollah victory" even though Israel regards Hezbollah as terrorist.VR _talk 02:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

  Then why not just fix those other articles you mentioned, for the same reason as Option 3? बिनोद थारू (talk) 02:39, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

  You're saying that dozens - possibly hundreds - of wikipedia articles should be changed to be made consistent with your preferred option of 3? Alternatively, you can admit that groups designated as terrorist have the capability of entering into battles with state actors and potentially even "win" (as RS put it) those battles. VR _talk 15:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4. It's a terrorist attack, albeit Hamas was driven out, it's preposterous to claim who was victorious. Even the source doesn't state it was a Hamas victory. Put it simple: Hamas fighters driven out of Israel, led to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. Sgnpkd (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2: That event in isolation was a Hamas victory, it was another event of the ongoing Israel-Palestinian conflict and this in isolation was a Hamas victory. Ecpiandy (talk) 22:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 per Makeandtoss oder Sgnpkd. I came here to close the RfC, but I ultimately couldn't decide between no consensus (default to option 3) or come-from-behind consensus for option 2. The arguments presented by option 3 supporters are awfully weak, though they are the majority; they mostly hinge on the practical consideration of designating this a terrorist attack rather than a military incursion, but present basically no reliable sources to bolster that claim. Supporters of option 2 brought some reliable sources, but they mostly focus on whether Hamas was defeated or did the defeating rather than whether the question makes sense at all. There's a survivorship bias question at play in that the RSes that would designate this as a terrorist attack don't have strong inclination to speak to the exact question this infobox question is asking. Also, the RSes aren't fantastic: they're contemporaneous news sources from reputable publishers. Not academic, but good*. Ultimately, I think the RSes used here support something shy of "victory"; I'm good with "military success" or taking a longer-term view of impact. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The RS survivorship bias issue is a good point. But couldn't the question on exactly what to include in the infobox be just as much about editorial judgment as about RS? The infobox is supposed to be a helpful summary; it's not the main thing, and there's no rule that everything better be there? —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 18:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Just noting there has been email canvassing by AndresHerutJaim asking people to vote option 3 here, with the email saying "Also please vote in this important RFC (for option 3 if you ask me). It's like if in the article of 911 attacks the infobox said "al-Qaeda victory": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel#Result_RFC" nableezy - 17:08, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Operation Operation al-Aqsa Flood’s redirect

There is a disagreement between editors on whether Operation al-Aqsa Flood should redirect to this article or 2023 Israel–Hamas war.

• Redirect to 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel — For historical accuracy + consistency in Wikipedia as the article was previously named “Operation al-Aqsa Flood” until a move discussion involving 71 editors moved it to “2023 Hamas attack on Israel”: Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel/Archive 2#Requested move 12 October 2023. The disagreement reasoning was based on a single talk page comment in November 2023, which had 0 replies. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Just move it back - the RM provides clear consensus for the prior redirect target that one talk page comment doesn't alter. Iskandar323 (talk) 01:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323

What is RM?

Irtapil (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Probably WP:RM. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• I think it should definitely redirect to here - Operation al-Aqsa Flood is clearly an alternative name for the initial attack and not the entire ensuing war. --Aquillion (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I have seen Hamas videos from the past month with the Arabic name for Al-Aqsa Flood, but nothing in English sources which is what we should use for the name at English Wikipedia. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:11, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

    @Vox Sciurorum

    I think I've seen it used frequently in English. Mostly by sources we'd consider too biased to link. At the risk of sounding patronising, have you tried googling it? I might be over estimating the frequency in English from having seen it in a lot of machine translated stuff.

    I think I tried it on google trends for the renaming the war debate on the 2023 Israel-Hamas war talk page. It was much less frequent than anything else being discused, but it regisered on the same scale, and only English speakers would search using the translation of "flood". I suspect it might beat "operation swords of iron", but I didn't compare that.

    I've also seen a couple of transliterations frequently Toofan Al-Aqsa and Tufan Al-Aqsa but I'm less confident about those being English. I think I've only seen those two on social media, and the ambiguity in language is that it was things where there were a lot of short comments in a variety of languages. I think they were more Urdu or Turkish or Malay.

    Irtapil (talk) 19:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

    • I saw it a lot at the start of the war, but not in English recently. I just searched Al Jazeera, which is more likely than the average news source to write from the Palestinian point of view, and they aren't calling the ongoing fighting Al-Aqsa Flood. Of course it could still be out there in places I don't look. Anadolu Agency uses Aksa Tufanı which is a straightforward translation of the Arabic into Turkish. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

      @Vox Sciurorum

      Is 14 hours ago recent enough for you? "Breaking news and analysis on day 89 of Gaza's Al-Aqsa Flood" is the title of today's podcast from The Electronic Intifada on YouTube. It stemmed just 14 hours ago and already has 36K views, so it's certainly not obscure. I'm not linking it, because I have no idea what that episode contains, but it's fairly likely to be controversial. I just did a search for Al Aqsa Flood narrowed to the past week.

      Al Jazeera English tends to play to a fairly broad moderate audience. It aims to appeal to the world's average well educated English speaker. Someone who has "World News" as one of their podcast categories.

      The term Al-Aqsa flood is only really used by the sorts of sources that aren't aiming for a broad audience, I really don't know how to describe it in a way that's not terribly offensive to them or their opponents or both.

      Irtapil (talk) 08:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

      @Vox Sciurorum

      Actually maybe I misunderstood?

      I thought you wanted to scrap the link comletely?

      But if you mean it shouldn't direct to the whole war then I agree, it's a distinctly one-sided term like Operation Swords of Iron (or Israel-Hamas War, but that's another story).

      And the current usage in English is mostly just Al-Aqsa Flood, the more formal Operation Al-Aqsa Flood tends to be about the planning.

      And Al-Aqsa Fllood tends to refer to the actions of just one side, not the whole war. I don't think they'd say an Israeli airstrike was "part of Al-Aqsa Fllood" - they'd only use it to refer to the retaliation. They tend to use it to describe the actions of only their own side or their allies.

      I my defence, I listen to a very broad range of stuff (it's been too upsetting to listen to my former favourite Israeli news podcast for most of the last 3 months, but I still read the Israeli newspapers a bit). I'm that guy with a big "world news" section in my podcasts.

      Irtapil (talk) 10:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Aquillion

  I would describe the usage as being for the Hamas et al. side of the war. Kind of the mirror image to Operation Swords of Iron .

  This is probably the most logical place for it to direct, if they wanted the whole war they can really find it from here.

  Irtapil (talk) 08:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter

Why wouldn't it redirect here? What is the alternative?

That name is used very commonly (in biased or informal sources, but commonly), and i can't think of a better place for it to redirect?

Irtapil (talk) 19:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@Irtapil: It seems my thinking aligns with most other editors. I had changed the redirect to be back to this article on Dec 28th. However, on Jan 1, it was changed back to redirect to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. That was why this discussion was opened to see what the community thought. And from the look of it, it seems the majority think it should redirect to this article and no the overall war article. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter

Why would it direct to the whole war? The Hebrew wiki uses the IDF operation name for the whole war. But both seem odd.

The sources I'm fiding above often say "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood Day 89" but the war as a whole is both sides, the flood is just one, so this seems like the right page. If whoever clicked it wanted the whole war, they can easily find it from here.

Irtapil (talk) 08:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• RFC Started – Due to the disagreement between several editors, I have started an RFC to determine the location for the Operation Al-Aqsa Flood redirect. You can participate in the RFC here: Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war#RfC – Redirect location for Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  See WP:RfD Parham wiki (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

TNYT Article

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html Drsruli (talk) 02:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

October 9?

Why does it say that the attack lasted from October 7-9? Did Hamas keep attacking on the two days following October 7? I believe that they were all killed or driven out within 18 hours of beginning the attack. 2603:7000:6E3E:57E0:9ED:6B89:657F:21FD (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Sderot. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

But that doesn't make sense. That article says that the IDF regained control of the police station and the town on October 8, although it does not provide a timeline (so we don't know if it could have been 12:30 AM, or much later in the day). Nevertheless, there is no reason why the heading should say "October 7-9", when there is no proof that Hamas was still attacking Israel on October 9. If you have a source for the idea that Hamas was still in Israel two days later, please provide it. Otherwise, please change the heading. 2603:7000:6E3E:57E0:9ED:6B89:657F:21FD (talk) 03:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-2-gaza-terrorists-found-in-rahat-a-month-after-october-7-assault/amp/

this suggests that not only did hamas have presence in Israeli territory past October 9th, but also that the intitial invasion penetrate much deeper than shown on the map, reaching Rahat. Not super reliable, but this reports hamas infiltrated sufa outpose in late October

https://www.baaz.com/post/6539efc9aef7a76aac1addfb The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Greetings @2603:7000:6E3E:57E0:9ED:6B89:657F:21FD, thanks for pointing out this discrepancy. I've changed the infoboxes here and on Battle of Sderot on the grounds that infoboxes should reflect the body of their articles and Wikipedia is not a reliable source. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 05:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 12 January 2024

2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → October 7 attack – Titling guidelines state that Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources" when titling pages (WP:COMMONNAME). In this case, the vast majority of sources refer to the event as the October 7 attack or some variant thereof rather than "the 2023 Hamas-led attack". 5.61.122.219 (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Nominator is an IP, which does not have the right to propose such a move. Furthermore, no evidence has been put forward that this is the most commonly used name, and a quick google search disproves this claim. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

A quick google search of "October 7 attacks" does not disprove this claim.

A quick google search of "October 7th" returns hundreds of millions of results, nearly all referring to the events of October 7th in Israel directly.

A quick google search of "2023 Hamas-led" or "2023 Hamas" returns a few million results involving Hamas and the year 2023, not the events of the Hamas attack on October 7th directly.

This article is about the October 7th Hamas-led attack, not some other Hamas attack that took place in 2023 or during the war that erupted following the attack.

The most commonly used name for the event this article is about in the English speaking world is "The October 7th..." and is commonly used in media, by Politicians and others.

Thewildshoe (talk) 15:54, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The terminology used regarding the October 7th attacks

Along side the military campaign of Hamas to breach the security wall and take out several IDF outposts, the Hamas led attack included a massacre of 695 Israeli and foreign civilians, as stated in the article. They were not collateral damage, they were targeted explicitly during the attack with an overabundance of evidence and documentation verified by the majority of independent medias and news sources. The absence of the word "massacre" diverges from the Wikipedia standard regarding other similar violent attacks with mass civilian casualties. Either we remove the word "massacre" from articles about other similar attacks, like the Bucha massacre, or we insert it here to be consistent with a uniform standard. The word should be included in the title and/or the intro and when referring to the 695 civilian casualties resulting from the Hamas led attack. The term "massacre" is very commonly used by various independent English speaking medias and news channels. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/22/world/europe/beeri-massacre.html Thewildshoe (talk) 15:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)