Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball

Overtime Elite

Hello. I was trying to update current rosters on the Overtime Elite page. There have been 5 additional teams added to the league. I was wondering if someone could help me with the colors for the roster boxes, so they match the team colors? Thanks.

--Bankrupt305 (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Awards in infobox

I’d like to ask for a consensus discussion on what should NOT be included in the basketball biography infobox. Specifically I would like to recommend that common practice be codified in the template documentation as we are seeing a LOT of “scope creep.” Recommended wording:

the following types of achievements are not listed in the infobox, but may be included in the prose if desired:

• Preseason awards
• All-Tournament designations (MVP awards for significant tournaments can be included)
• Player of the week or month
• Awards from publications or websites if not recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body (example, a specific newspaper player of the year)

Rikster2 (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

This seems to have been the de facto practice for NBA-related bios, until the recent NBA In-Season Tournament e.g. Anthony Davis currently has its all-tournament team in his infobox. —Bagumba (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Some user made a point of adding all the FIBA World Cup all-tournament honors it’s ridiculous. Also, if the NBA in season follows the same convention we use in college, even the MVP or winning it would not be included. We don’t do that for the Maui Invitational. Rikster2 (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the preseason awards, player of the week/month awards and awards from publications that is not recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body. I don't agree wholy with the tournament part. For instance, the FIBA World Cup is a major international competition held by the governing body of basketball and coming from a part of the world where it is held in pretty high regards I must say it stings more than a little to see the inclusion of its all-tournament awards in a players list of major achievements called ridiculous. My opinion is that tournament awards from major competitions should be included while awards from minor tournaments should not, for example tournaments held by a non-governing league/body such as the Maui Invitational. Alvaldi (talk) 08:51, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

FIBA Basketball World Cup All-Tournament Team would be more compelling if the page could be supported by independent reliable sources and demonstrated to meet WP:LISTN. —Bagumba (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Ridiculous might have been too strong a word, but it’s too much. If you go look at the All-World Cup list, a good portion of the players who have been named already have incredibly long lists of achievements, you have to draw lines somewhere. All-Final Four (NCAA) is a similar honor, but we’ve never included that. Rikster2 (talk) 12:22, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

My comment on the Maui Invitational was aimed at the NBA in-season tournament. We don’t even know if that will have any long-term significance (much like the NBA bubble tournament a couple years ago) Rikster2 (talk) 12:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

It makes sense to limit the lists when they get to long, for instance for Luka Dončić. But from my perspective, an All-Team award from a major international tournament ranks alot higher than for instance the EB Next Generation Tournament MVP (youth award) or the Bundesliga Best German Young Player award that Dennis Schröder has listed in his article.

For some players, their biggest career highlight might being named to an NCAA All-Final Four team and in that case my opinion is that it is fine to list it in the infobox. However, if the player has a long list of other major achievements then maybe it is better to move the lesser ones to a list in the article. But relegating World Cup awards below for instance American high school awards is something I can't in good conscience agree to. (Shawn Kemp, who made the 1994 World Championship team, has six achievements listed in his infobox, four of them are high school awards, including a Fourth-team Parade All-American award.) Alvaldi (talk) 13:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I guess I look at it differently - an honor should be shown on the infobox or not. If a player has zero “infobox worthy” achievements then so be it, it certainly can be addressed in the prose of the article. The problem is that if one player shows (for example) “All World Cup” then some editor will come and add it to every other player who achieved it because there is lack of clarity if it should be included or not. We can discuss other items that shouldn’t be on there - some you mention are out of place on my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

As for high school, originally we only listed McDonalds or Parade All-American and state Mr. Basketball. Somehow things have been added and added to the infobox. It is the kind of scope creep that o worry about if we are not explicit about criteria Rikster2 (talk) 18:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Just to put something out there (I'm probably forgetting something). I know you don't agree with all of it, but its a start.

What to include:

Awards

• Official league and cup awards (i.e. MVP, DPoY, Team of the Year, National Cup MVP)
• FIBA awards from major international (Olympics, World Cup) and the four continental championships (EuroBasket, AfroBasket, AmeriCup, Asia Cup)
• College awards (this is probably more of your expertise. Would have to take into count college leagues outside of the United States, such as the Philippines)
• Major junior/high school awards (I honestly don't see alot of these listed in the navbox, outside of the three you mention above)
• Awards from publications recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body
• National Sportsperson of the Year awards (for example Slovenian Sportsperson of the Year)
• Official anniversary teams (for example NBA 75th Anniversary Team or EuroLeague Basketball 2010–20 All-Decade Team)

Titles

• League championships (FIBA sanctioned leagues and tournaments and stand-alone professional leagues)
• Official cups (FIBA sanctioned national cups, super cups, stand-alone professional cups)
• College titles (national titles at least)

What not to include:

• Preseason awards
• Player of the week or month awards
• Awards from publications or websites if not recognized by the relevant governing league or governing body (example, a specific newspaper player of the year or Eurobasket.com awards)
• Awards and titles from (minor?) stand-alone or friendly competitions run by clubs, colleges or minor sport organisations.

I would suggest adding something like If the achievements list gets too cluttered, an editorial decision can be made to trim lesser awards from the list but I wouldn't make a fuzz if it isn't. Alvaldi (talk) 17:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

FIBA titles (eg those that are actually sponsored by FIBA) should not be listed as bullets in the infobox, they are in the relevant medal table below the bulleted list. Rikster2 (talk) 22:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, I should've clarified better that I was referring to club competitions (both league and cup), such as the Basketball Champions League, not national team competitions. The wording could be changed to something along the lines of Club leagues and tournaments sanctioned by FIBA or a nations governing basketball body or stand-alone professional leagues. That is, FIBA run club competitions, national leagues run by a sanctioned national governing body (such as the German Basketball Federation) and stand-alone professional leagues (EuroLeague, the original ABA etc.)

Two other things that maybe should be addressed and I've sometimes seen added to the achievement lists are The Basketball Tournament and 3x3 competitions such as the Big3. Personally I don't add them but I don't have any hard stance on the matter other than its teams should not be listed in the career history of the infobox. Alvaldi (talk) 08:12, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support excluding all-tournament, even for FIBA, unless there's evidence of independent coverage esp. non-routine coverage that is mentioned months/years after the event.—Bagumba (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Such coverage for the FIBA awards would probably mostly be in non-english sources (or at least non-American sources), but there is some evidence out there in english sources. This 2023 article covering Caloy Loyzaga talks about his 1954 all-tournament award. I'm going to see if I can find more. Alvaldi (talk) 11:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

There's no requirement that sources are in English. However, the question would be whether they are reliable. Google picks up a lot of bloggy and unreliable sites, even in English, that most of us would not readily be able to filter. —Bagumba (talk) 11:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, I was referring to the sources availability. As you have probably experienced, it is much easier to source American college players from several decades ago than for example a European professional player, simply because newspapers sources are much more readily available online. However, I picked another one from an english speaking country, New Zealands Pero Cameron, and his all-tournament selection in 2002 is still being covered 20 years later [1][2] Alvaldi (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Here is a 2014 article that mentions several players performances in the World Championships/Cup and their inclusion in the All-tournament teams over a span of several decades. Another one from 2023 that speaks of Oscar Schmidt being named to the All-tournament team in his World Championship debut in 1978 and also names the four other that were selected. At a glance, there seems to be several sources that are independent of the subjects that mention their all-tournaments selections even decades later. Alvaldi (talk) 13:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support excluding all-tournament per Rikster2 and Alvadi. That can and should go in prose. At some point, the honors/awards/championships section needs to be formally restricted to only the most relevant, major, and defining of one's career. All-tournament (college, pro, and international) are not it. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I actually support including all-tournament awards, at least in the World Championship/Cup, as the sources I presented above show that the players WC All-Tournament awards are being covered decades later, which sounds like a career defining award. Alvaldi (talk) 19:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Plural changes to List of Champions tables (again)

Circling back to this topic from June 2022. A user has changed Champion > Champions and Runner-up > Runners-up at List of New Zealand NBL champions. Can we agree on a consensus here, plural or not plural. It was stated last year they should reflect the data that is in an individual cell. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Mate, in Commonwealth English, sports teams are always considered to be plural nouns. For example, a championship-winning basketball team is made of 12 (or more) individual champions, therefore, they (as a team) are the league champions.

Source: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/are-names-of-sports-teams-and-bands-singular-or-plural/ 2001:8003:9100:2C01:B87C:9468:B08E:B809 (talk) 10:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

How sports teams are considered is not the question. Your argument doesn't seem to be in line with what I am raising here. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that has nothing to do with how table column headers relate to individual cells. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:17, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, since we are listing a bunch of plural nouns in the table, I don’t see any reason why the column header shouldn't be a plural noun too. 58.160.77.124 (talk) 14:14, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

As the only other person who commented at the previous thread, I'll state that it was from an AmE perspective. I don't know enough about Commonwealth English. FWIW, there's plurals at List of English football champions.—Bagumba (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Famous(?) Ukrainian player killed?

See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ukraine#Viktor_Kobzystyi_-_famous_baseball_player? (basketball, not baseball...). Needs an article or redirect, presumably. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Invitational tournaments in professional players' infoboxes

Lately, it was news that Dwight Howard will play for a Philippine team in a Dubai invitational. His stint is by itself "professional" (he's paid), but the league/tournament itself isn't (I might say kinda similar to William Jones Cup?) Should we add these teams in players' infoboxes now? Previously, it wasn't done before. Hasheem Thabeet for example played for Mighty Sports during the 2017 Dubai Tourney but it's not added to his infobox. I could just boldly revert the update on Howard's article, but I started a discussion anyway cos I feel like I might get reverted. ^{Dieter Lloyd Wexler} 23:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

If a team actively participates in a "home league", I suppose its players playing on it has to be in an infobox, provided they played at least one game. I suppose this team doesn't play in a league that I know of, and was just kind of thrown in altogether, so by my definition, any of the players won't be listed in the infobox.

There's another case where a team participates in more than one tournament concurrently, and has a slightly different set of players for each one: for example, should Diamond Stone be listed as a Meralco Bolts member when he solely played in the 2018 FIBA Asia Champions Cup, and not in the 2018 PBA Governors' Cup? Howard the Duck (talk) 12:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I assume what Jeremy Lin's infobox has about the Dongguan Leopards (at the ABA Club Championship) in 2011 is similar? If nobody make a case for it, remove it (WP:ONUS). I have less of an issue if it's only short sourced prose.—Bagumba (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, if it is an official club competition (cup or league) run or sanctioned by a national governing body or FIBA (i.e FIBA Asia Champions Cup) then the players stint should be mentioned in the infobox. If the player only appeared in pre-season games or un-official competitions then it should not. Alvaldi (talk) 14:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

This is what I am agreeing with. If it is a tournament sactioned by FIBA (e.g. FIBA Asia Champions Cup or FIBA West Asia Super League) or a tournament involving qualified, not invited, professional teams that are champions in their respective countries (e.g. East Asia Super League), add it in the infobox. Otherwise, do not add (e.g. William Jones Cup and this Dubai Invitational). ^{Dieter Lloyd Wexler} 23:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Patrick Cole

If anyone can find info on his pro career beyond the 2017–18 season, please correct this article. All I could find was that he played for KB Prishtina that year; no other teams or leagues since (ProBallers, Eurobasket, etc.). Couldn't even find a general life update on the guy, so I updated his infobox as retired, but I'm not 100% confident about it. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I added a stint with a BIH team in 2018 per RealGM and Proballers. ^{Dieter Lloyd Wexler} 00:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Lingerie Basketball League

I was trying to understand the pageview spike for Joanne McCarthy (basketball). I ran across an ESPN article showing that she is participating in the Lingerie Basketball League, which is a league WP says has been defunct for over a decade. Any idea how to handle this league in a bio and infobox?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The ESPN article appears to be from 2011. It shouldn't be in the infobox any more than other independent minor recreational leagues. Alvaldi (talk) 14:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The search result that I had showed a 2022 date and that lines up with the viewership spike. Also it has to be after 2016, which is the date of the other source I just added.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

That date in the search result is wrong. The article links to a TMZ video from 2011 as a source. Alvaldi (talk) 07:13, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure what to believe because of the August 2022 pageview spike that would be consistent with newfound lingerie league "fame" at about that time.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:28, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Definitely not the lingerie league as that one seems to have barely lasted one "season" (it was just a few games played in August 2011 as far as I can tell, and the article is from August 1, 2011). But you are right, the pageview spike is very strange considering she hasn't been in the news for well over a decade. Then again, it could just be an overflow from her more famous relatives, Jenny McCarthy and Melissa McCarthy, as she is listed in their infoboxes. Alvaldi (talk) 19:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Neither of them had a pageview spike. So I remain convinced that something is causing the spike. And that something is exactly correlated with the date of this ESPN story that is the suggested when i put JoJo McCarthy in google.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:31, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

• User:Alvaldi, please teach me about your perspective of the date. I don't understand the TMZ video date and feel I should restore the ESPN article with the 2022 date.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

  There are bunch of giveaways but to make it short here is an archived version of the article from 2011 with the date August 1, 2011. Alvaldi (talk) 11:29, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

  @TonyTheTiger The date is actually seen here if you scroll down the list. Alvaldi (talk) 11:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

An explanation for the spike is that the Joanne McCarthy (basketball) article was moved from Joanne McCarthy in August 2022. Prior to that, the article under its original name was regularly receiving over 20,000 views per month. The mystery remains as to why her page is so popular. CalDoesIt (talk) 13:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Does she have a big social media following? Maybe a social media profile linked to the Wikipedia page. I really think Google's date for the ESPN article is an error. Zagalejo (talk) 13:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The Google date is an error. Scroll down this archive from 2011 and it is there, dated August 1, 2011. And as CalDoesIt points out, the article was moved in August 2022 which makes it seem that there was a big spike then while the reality is she has been getting this traffic for years, probably because there is a link to her article the infoboxes of her more famous relatives. Alvaldi (talk) 14:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

• O.K. per User:CalDoesIt, there is no new pageview spike that needs to be explained. O.K. so lets talk about why the LBL does or does not belong in the article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

  It was a short-lived glorified city rec league. No indications that it received sustained significant coverage so it fails Wikipedia's notability guidelines. I see no reasons to include it any more than we include other church leagues or pickup tournaments. Alvaldi (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

  Do you believe Lingerie Basketball League should exist?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, it fails WP:GNG and WP:NORG due to lack of WP:SUSTAINED WP:SIGCOV, and having no WP:LASTING effects, so the article should be deleted IMO. Alvaldi (talk) 08:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Dean Smith

Dean Smith has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 02:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Note

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_Dinamo_Bucure%C8%99ti_(basketball)

Basket-related users should check what is going on with "players section" here, too long story of admins doing things without minimum knowledge 😒 93.138.236.233 (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)