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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MiszaBot II (talk | contribs) at 18:37, 8 April 2007 (Archiving 1 thread(s) from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wine.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 → Archive 10
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 → Archive 10

Operation Stub Killer Update

Well almost a week into our first challenge to eliminate stubs we have mixed results. We actually increased the number of overall stubs we had from 742 to 774. However, we decreased the overall percentage of stubs down from being 75% of Wine related articles to 74%. Part of this is the growth that comes from discovering new wine related articles that already existed. Stub killing will obviously be an ongoing and constant battle. But we need everyone to chip in to kill off at least one stub per member. Unfortunately, we do have a hefty number of Wine Project members that are mostly inactive so if any of more active members can kill off 2 or 3 more that would be great.
How do you kill off a stub?

  • The BEST way is to improve the article, add a section or two with a few references to bring it up to at least Start class
  • Some items listed at stub may not be stubs at all and just need to be reassessed.
  • Some stubs are about minor wine related items and could be better served by being merged into a bigger article. As a general rule of thumb, if you don't think there is more than a paragraph's worth of info that could be written about the subject-it will better served into a bigger article that covers that scope. Ex: There are several merge candidates to go into wine accessory. Just be sure to redirect the article title to the bigger article and delete the {{wine}} tag from the talk page.
  • Some stubs are advertisements or about non-notable items. These items can be WP:PROD and later deleted.

Now let's kill some stubs! AgneCheese/Wine 19:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I was thinking Agne, maybe we are going about this all wrong. Maybe we should see how many new Start (or other class articles) there are instead of JUST counting the Stubs. I have no idea how to check the difference in numbers though. But, I think there are quite a few more Start articles and that this shows a lot of improvement. Charleenmerced Talk 17:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
You know that is a really good point. I still want to keep track of the "percentage" of stub articles to the overall number of wine articles but I think in terms of tracking, your idea of following the increase in Start articles is a better way to go. AgneCheese/Wine 08:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
    • And a lot more encouraging ;-). I just created a couple of articles, all stubs (seriously no more info) and all I could think was, well, this so increases the number of stubs. ;-0 --Charleenmerced Talk 13:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Sparkling wine

This article is a WID nominee and I'm wondering if there is merit to merging the smaller "sparkling style" articles like Spumante, Frizzante, Crémant, Cap Classique, and Sekt into it. A significant advantage would be that it would reduce redundancy and duplication between the main sparkling wine article and the smaller stub articles (which may not grow out of their stub states). I encountered a similar situation when I was working on the Late harvest wine where I felt like I was just repeating some of the same info from the main articles talking about the various styles. Any thoughts? AgneCheese/Wine 07:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Each article could be merged into its own section in the sparkling wine article, and then you could redirect the articles to that section. ◄scharks► 07:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Picture requests

Does anyone have or can get any pictures for this articles? Charleenmerced Talk 19:45, 24 March 2007

As a side note I've added a photo request parameter to the {{wine}} template. To request a photo add "needs-photo=yes" to template on the talk page. These articles are then added to Category:Wine articles needing photos. ◄scharks► 02:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Now that is uber-cool. :) AgneCheese/Wine 06:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

New stub types

Although we're trying to kill stubs, the number of articles listed as {{wine-stub}} is probably going to remain very large. To try and make the process a little more maintainable I've gone and created 4 new stub types that are a little more specific than the top level "wine" label. These are:

In the next few days I'm going to try to go through the 700+ stub articles and try to sort them into these categories. If you come across a stub that could be relabeled with one of these new templates it would be great if you could update it. :) Also, for new stub articles please make use of these new templates if possible. --- The Bethling(Talk) 07:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

TERRIFIC! This will definitely make stub killing easier and easier to manage overall. Great work. AgneCheese/Wine 09:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I entirely agree. Well done. --Bduke 09:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

  • thanks for this. I say, we should definately first focus on expanding grapes and regions (unless anyone else has a preferrence for something else, then go with that). So, question, we use the wine stub template for everything else then? --Charleenmerced Talk 12:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Common watchlist

As per the prodding discussion above, one way of watchlisting lots of articles is to use something like this but it makes use of a fixed page with a list of pages, which means that new pages will NOT be on it and the page needs to be manually updated, I do not think this can be done with a category and I do not know how to make a page like that in a resonably automatic way, I now did a copy paste of the List of vineyards and wineries page which do not have many enties, just to show how it will look like. I'm sure a bot can be written that can check one category like the wine category and all subordinate categories and create this page every day, but then someone have to write the bot and run it every day, I can not do that. I'm not sure if we have anyone else with bot writing skills and a host to use that can volunteer. Stefan 15:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Stefan. Man! There are a lot of cool features on WP! Your list is cool! Didn't know you could do that. But, after sniffing around a little, Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:wine seem to work, too. --Saintrain 18:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course, like any good wikiproject, there are a lot of overlapping categories. For instance, this page isn't in the "Wine" category!? So maybe a page like yours with a list of categories?
Category:Wine                       -> Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:Wine
Category:WikiProject Wine articles  -> Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:WikiProject Wine articles
Category:Non-article Wine pages     -> Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:Non-article Wine pages
Category:other wine categories I don't know about
Or better yet, better categorization. --Saintrain 18:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't quite work. I made a page User:Saintrain/RCCats with a list of cats, so
# Category:Wine
and it just put the page in the cat, and Recentchangeslinked displayed nothing. Then I tried
# w:Category:Wine
That made links instead of cats but Recentchangeslinked still displayed nothing. Then I tried
# :Category:Wine
which linked but Recentchangeslinked only note changes to the cat pages themselves.
Interestingly, putting a cat in my watchlist doesn't seem to display anything!?
But the links are a workaround.
Still pretty new at this. Any suggestions? --Saintrain 19:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC) & 23:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
So recent changes for a category works, nice find I could not find it when lokking, BUT it does not display its subcategories, so I guess we should make a page with all wine categories and recent changes links for them, then we have to click one at a time, to bad but better than nothing. Stefan 23:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion

Please discuss any articles that you believe should be deleted here before adding a "prod" or "speedy" tag. I have removed a prod tag from two Australian wineries. Deletions of these would set the sense for not having articles on a large number of Australian wineries. Australian members of the project may know more about these wineries and where sources can be found. Both articles do need more work and I will look at them next week if nobody else has by then. We have visitors here now and I'm tied up. --Bduke 23:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Given the "speedy" and more severe nature of CSD, I would also encourage Project level discussions. However, I don't think that is needed with prods because the beauty of that method is that it gives 5 days for anyone to remove or contest it. In review some of the winery stubs, I felt that there were some wineries that didn't establish notability of being anything special apart from being just a winery. On a few there were a fair amount of g-hits so I placed a note on the talk page like with Talk:Torbreck. On others I prod, with the assumption that either someone will care enough about the winery to have it watchlisted and be motivated to improve the article enough to establish notability or that the five days will expired and it will be deleted. Given that these were all stubs, not much information was at risk of being lost that couldn't be easily recreated. A full fledge written article would certainly be a different story. On some of the articles, the prod was removed and a desire expressed to improve the article and establish notability. That is fantastic and I have complete trust and faith in the judgment of the editors who removed the prod. Our mutual goal is to have a quality wine related articles spring out of this project. In the end, that is all that matters. AgneCheese/Wine 05:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The only thing I have to say about this is that even though not a lot of info has to be re-created when a stub is deleted, we won't really know. Let me explain, if a stub is deleted, we may not know about its existence and thus its need to be improved. This is why I don't really like deletions. So, I wouldn't mind having a list (readily available) of the articles which have proposed deletions. We can do it right here in the Talk page Charleenmerced Talk 08:04, 24 March 2007
  • I don't think there's much a chance that there would be any articles that would be brought up for speedy deletion. Speedy deletion is mostly for articles that essentially harm Wikipedia by existing. Prods on the other hand are for cases where a user doesn't think an article (typically one that doesn't get updated much) belongs in Wikipedia. It's not an attack on the article. I really don't think that they need to be all listed here. If there's nobody watching them, and there's no claim of notability (e.g. why a winery passes WP:CORP)in the article, then they probably don't warrant inclusion. Although the information in the stub wouldn't be available, the stubs that I've looked at have only basic information about the subject - things that a person who would want to recreate the article would probably have access to anyways. --- The Bethling(Talk) 09:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with some of the comments in response to my initial paragraph in this section. The project is young. Not everybody has a lot of the articles on their watch lists. I did because I went through the Australian articles, checking that the Project tag was there. People outside the Project are going to want to delete some of our articles. We should be seeking to develop them or merge them. I think is is good manners to members of the Project to raise concerns about articles here before tagging them for "prod" or any form of deletion. It brings more expertise to the article. For example, I do not pretend to know anything about US wineries, but I do know about Australian ones, and I suspect the opposite is true for members of the Project who live in the US. Discussion here can also allow discussion of needed new articles. For example, I think we need more articles on wine regions and they would be good places to merge articles on small wineries whose notability may be marginal, but OK to be part of a larger article. BTW, the articles I removed the prod tags from were Chateau Yaldara and Belgravia vineyard. These are not "one line" articles. I think it was unacceptable to "prod" these articles. Concerns should have been raised here and that is what should happen in the future for all articles that someone thinks have concerns. --Bduke 22:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I strongly disagree with your assessment that it was unacceptable to prod the articles. These sorts of articles are exactly the sorts of articles that prod was designed for. Articles that for the most part well written, but just lack the notability that's needed for its own article. Often prodded articles have little activity, and the prod serves as a notice that the user feels "I don't think this article fails to meet some guideline for inclusion. Does anyone disagree?" Essentially, it's the equivalent of WP:BOLD for the editor who feels that Wikipedia is cluttered by too many stubs that are not well developed, ignored, and clutter it up. You disagreed with the assessment and removed the tag. That was the proper thing to do. However, Agne's tagging of the article was in no way "unacceptable", and should not be labeled that way.
The amount of discussion that should go on here before deleting (arguably) non-notable subjects is something that the project will decide, but please WP:AGF and remember that both you and Agne took actions that each of you thought were in the best interest of the project and wikipedia in general. --- The Bethling(Talk) 23:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
We should be improving articles or merging them, not putting them for deletion at an early stage of the Project when they may not be on the watchlist of too many people in the Project. I am assuming good faith. I am just saying it should not have been done and it should not be done again. It does not help the Project. It does not seem to me that this happens in the other Projects I am involved with. I can recall no such cases. --Bduke 00:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
So what is the consensus, basically we keep articles ONLY about wineries that have something 'special', are first with something...., that will make most wineries non notable? Is e.g. Rosemount (wine) notable? I think so, but I can only justify it by saying that it is large and well known, not notable by wikipedia standard, maybe it it because I do not know its history, but lets for arguments sake say that there is nothing notable about it, it is not largest in its region, did not do anything first or anything special, BUT it is large and well know, would that make Rosemount non-notable and it should be deleted? If so I guess there is not much point in write random winery articles, I have at least one more article that should be deleted then ..... sigh.
Reading WP:CORP again, does it mean that if there are magazine articles about a winery it can possibly be considered notable? Is my ref in the Rosemount (wine) article enough to substantiate notability as per WP:CORP? I do not think it meets WP:NOTWINE. anyone? Stefan 01:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, although the article doesn't make its notability obvious, Rosemount is certainly notable, magazine-wise I remember there being an article about its 20th anniversary in Wine Spectator. Although I don't know much about the winery (other than that I like its GSM :), a winery of that size has the potential of developing into a very thorough article. What I'm afraid of seeing is lots articles on smaller wineries that haven't done anything outside of being a winery notability wise. When it comes down to it, the typical winery is just a small business, no different than a local pizza shop or restaurant. It's known and important to its "local" community, but once you get out side that, it's mostly unknown. Some do get a reputation well beyond they're local area and those are the ones that are most likely able to pass WP:N. I see it as being similar for wines: if a winery has achieved a significant reputation then national/international press is likely to have noticed. --- The Bethling(Talk) 04:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It looks like there is two different issues here. 1.) Should Prod deletions be discussed on this project page or even considered at all and 2.) What is the notability for a winery. The first conversation should continue here but I would like to move the second question over to WP:WINEGUIDE because this is truly a subject that needs more collaborative discussion among Wine Project members. I'm going to copy the relevant comments to that talk page and respond over there. AgneCheese/Wine 06:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Prodding Wine articles

A new heading to discuss some of the nitty gritty of this aspect. There are a couple points above that I would like to directly respond to.

  • We should be improving articles or merging them, not putting them for deletion at an early stage of the Project when they may not be on the watchlist of too many people in the Project. --Bduke 00:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply While the wine project maybe young, there have been creation, contribution and development of wine articles since the foundation of Wikipedia. This is largely the biggest reason why we are in such a "metaphorical" hole in having a 1000+ wine articles of relatively poor state. We're not starting from scratch here but rather joining the race midstream. Of course, our primary focus is to improve and develop wine articles and no one can look at my list of contributions and argue that I'm a deletionist. However our interest in developing wine articles doesn't equate with blanket inclusionism. The simple truth is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia-not a wineguide. Our interest in wine related articles is encyclopedic and what they offer to the world of wine-not to replace Wine Spectator or your typical wine guide. Hence the reason we need to adhere to establish Wikipedia guidelines like WP:CORP, WP:NOT, and WP:NN as well as develop our co-existing guidelines at places like WP:WINEGUIDE. AgneCheese/Wine 07:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I think is is good manners to members of the Project to raise concerns about articles here before tagging them for "prod" or any form of deletion. - --Bduke 22:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply I don't think it's ill manners to have faith in the judgment and intentions of other wine project members. If a person is motivated to join the Wine Project in the first place, they probably have passion and desire to see that Wikipedia become a stellar encyclopedic resource about this wonderful beverage. As I alluded to before, the beauty of the "Prod" system is that it is a simple and rather soft method of "prodding" things along. There is nothing permanent about the Prod and it is easy to contest and remove. Obviously, any individual wine member is not the "be all and end all" of knowledge of the world's wines and their notability-hence the beauty that another wine project member can simply remove the prod and say "Wait, there is more to the story". If the end result is a better article that establishes notability, then all the better. Though I don't think there is a reason for hurt feelings. We are simply working towards the same goal. AgneCheese/Wine 07:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Concerns should have been raised here and that is what should happen in the future for all articles that someone thinks have concerns --Bduke 22:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply I, personally, have concerns about listing each and every wine article related issue on this project page. I think a continuing challenge with the Project is the fact that is SO MUCH that has to be done and it can be quite daunting and overwhelming. If we burden the project with an overly bureaucratic sense of oversight, then I think our progress will be quite stunted in any endeavor we attempt. Of course, we have this page open for discussion and extra opinions. But not every editorial decision needs to be posted here. Again, I think we just need to have simple faith in our fellow members. Bduke removed two of the prod's that I put up because he wants to improve the articles and feels that they have notability. I trust his decision and will gladly let him go about working on those articles. In our recent WID articles of Carmenere, Languedoc wine, and Pinot Gris, there are many times when another editors work is deleted, reworded or moved around. I know it has happened to some of my own edits but there is no reason to be offended because I see in the work of my fellow editors a desire to improve the same article that I so desire to improve. It is the same goal and we just have to have faith in each other. AgneCheese/Wine 07:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you make some good points, but I also think you are missing an important point. My point about the age of the Project is that it has attracted more people to wine articles and as time goes on they will have wine articles on their watch lists. Prod is a reasonable way if, and only if, several people have the article on their watch list and thus know it has been tagged for deletion. I agree that there are a large number of wine articles, some quite old, but I do not think a lot of the participants are likely to notice the deletion tag. If they do not have it on their watch list, they will not know and not comment. Simple removing the deletion tag is only possible if you know it is there. That is why I think issues should be discussed here. The situation when several editors are working on an article is quite different. They all see the other edits. Debate can be on the article's talk page. On the two articles in question, I will look at them during the week. I do think one of them is notable. I am not sure about the other. There are other Australian Project members and some may know more than I do and have access to more sources. All the more reasons for more eyes to look at them. What others did you tag for deletion? --Bduke 08:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Antwort Well to the best of my knowledge, it is impossible to know how many people have a particular paged watch listed. But the benefits of Prod's don't just exist for the benefit of the watchlisted editors. It also puts the article into a couple categories which are regular watched by Wiki-gnomes and even stone inclusionists who actively work on improving those borderline articles to put them in compliance with guidelines and policies. There are also the uncountable influence of driven by editors and anon who are more likely to find the article through random articles/wiki links/ or just general searching then in coming to the talk page of this project. Those editors will see the prod tag and maybe motivated to do something about the article. But the second part of the problem is that common to any overly beaucratic or micro-management system-with the sheer girth of projects and articles that need the attention and limited resources of this project, why add more burden to the project with having to run every editorial decision through the project page? If there were borderline cases and it was obvious that no one was responding to a prod tag, then it would probably be worth adding a note on the page. The same would be true if these were full fledged articles rather then stubs. As I mentioned before, if we lose faith in the abilities of our fellow wine project members to edit and make editorial decisions-this project is not going to go very far. AgneCheese/Wine 19:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that I find this response terribly disappointing. It still misses the point. Of course, we can not see anybody else's watch list, but it is a reasonable assumption that participants in the Project will, as time goes on, be adding wine articles to their watch list. It is not a reasonable assumption that we are wiki gnomes going through the prod category. Of course we want to get others to come to the articles. If they come across it randomly, then it is the role of "cleanup" tags, NOT "prod" tags that will tell them the article needs work. There is no need to flag "cleanup" here, but I insist that all proposed deletions should be flagged here. If you use "cleanup" not "prod" for the ends you want, there will be few deletion proposals. You say "if .. it was obvious that no one was responding to a prod tag, then it would probably be worth adding a note on the page". It will be too late by then. It will be gone. It is not a question of losing faith in the abilities of Project members. It IS a question of whether they know. I think it more than likely, that if I had not got the Australian articles on my watch list and I had not raised the point here, then the prod'ed articles would have been deleted with nobody except you knowing. I consider that would have been a bad result. It almost seems to me that you do not want people to know things, and I am beginning to wonder whether I should let this Project go. I am involved in several other Projects and spend enough time on Wikipedia. Sorry, but it is best to be frank and Aussies generally are. I'm very disappointed in your responses. Finally, I wish you were not so concerned about the "sheer girth of projects and articles that need the attention and limited resources of this project". We are not building an encyclopedia over night. We will get there. There is no point in continually worrying about it. --Bduke 23:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
From her(?) contributions I can find:
Stefan 00:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Vinedo Chadwick, I should have left a note on the talk page explaining this one. That was my error and I apologize. The reason that I prodded it is because of after more research I found that the Berlin Wine Tastings were quite similar to the San Francisco Wine Tasting of 1978 in terms of being purely a marketing tasting. It doesn't really have any notability on its own and didn't even garner a mention in Wine Spectator or any other news source for that matter. Since the tasting was singularly focused on Chilean wine, I was going to merge the tasting in that small section on that article. Apart from this brief mention in a fairly non-notable tasting, there is nothing much else to find about that I could and the g-hits don't look promising. AgneCheese/Wine 19:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • "It almost seems to me that you do not want people to know things....project." Geez, that was overly harsh huh? I just HAD to say something because, even though I agree with you on some points (maybe we should keep a list of articles that have been prodded (or whatever the term is) since many articles have been deleted that I think should have not, I think we should not critisize the members so much. We have to have good faith after all. I understand where you are both coming from: Agne may feel that there are articles that may never go beyond being an adversisement stub (although sometimes we must live with the stub, not all articles can be improved that much, there is just not enough info-take Aligoté for example) and sometimes there are articles that should be deleted because they should either be merged, they are pure advertisement and/or they are not notable enough (and I hate notability standard, still - I do say there are **some** articles that are not notable enough). So, I suggest 2 things: let's stop the back-and-forth replying in this category and second, maybe, if anyone is interested, compile a list or template which compiles the prodded articles. So, instead of accusing members of "not want[ing] people to know things" we should look at that person's overall behavior...isn't Agne doing a Stub-killing drive, didn't she start (sorry if I am mistaken) or continue with the newsletter to keep us all informed and motivated about improving articles??? So, I think we have to just keep helping each other and improving articles, which is the purpose of the Project. So, in the spirit of this message...can anyone help me with the Aligoté article? Can't find anymore info to get this article out of a Stub class.--Charleenmerced Talk 01:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

I appreciate your comments and I do think Agne is doing a great job, except on this one question where she has persisted in trying to oppose the idea that any article put forward for deletion by anyone or by any method (prod, speedy or AfD) should be listed on the Project page or the Project talk page - a proposal which as far as I can see is followed in every other Project I am involved in. I just do not see it is a big point or a difficult thing to do. If non-Project editors put an article up for deletion we clearly want to know. I do not think Project members should put articles up for deletion. I think they should be tagged for clean up and only put for deletion when there is clear consensus that nothing can be done to make it encyclopedic after extensive discussion. Sorry I can not help you with Aligoté as I know nothing much about it. I will however be putting forward some ideas on Chateau Yaldara soon. --Bduke 03:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

  • You missed one of my points, instead of just talking about it, you should compile a list or ask someone to write a template that complies a list of prodded articles. That is an easy solution to the problem you are interested in.--Charleenmerced Talk 03:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
    • I do not understand your "write a template that complies a list of prodded articles". I know of no way of automating getting a sub-list of all prodded (or speedied or AfD'ed) articles that are of interest to this Project. In other Projects this is done by people adding the articles to a list as they come across them. We have a preliminary list above covering the recent prodded articles. I'll certainly set up part of the structure needed, but unless Agne agrees it should be done, I do not think we can say there is consensus to do it. Could you expand your ideas on how we go about doing it? --Bduke 03:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps any articles that need attention of the project members can have "attention=yes" added to the {{wine}} template on the article talk page. This adds the article to Category:Wine articles needing attention. The other possibility is to create another importance parameter, maybe "importance=none", which will add the article to a similar category. Also for my $0.02, this whole issue regarding prodding articles is fine by me. I created the Chateau Yaldara article that was prodded and it did not bother me for two reasons, 1. It was done in good faith, 2. There was grounds for prodding it. I feel that futher discussion on this matter is unwarranted. ◄scharks► 04:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Compromise solution?

  • I think a lot of this conversation incorporates a diverging view of the benefits/flaws of the prod function. I can respect that and I can also respect Bduke's desire for some sort of notification system. I think Schark's idea might combine the best of both worlds. If changing the importance to "none" puts it into its own category, maybe we can "tweak" it into allowing a date that corresponds to the date that a prod tag was placed? Then how about linking to this category within the "open task" area that is available for any wine project member to view. That way an editor can still make editorial decisions (like deciding to prod an article) and wine project members can be kept fully informed and updated by simply checking on that category. With that said, I want to say that I value Bduke's contribution to the project greatly and would hate to see him go. I think our disagreements are certainly scalable and I can see potential in Scharks idea to get a lot of wine articles into better shape. AgneCheese/Wine 06:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Thank you, Agne, for not taking my harsh words in the wrong way. I was thinking of a rather different idea that could run along with your idea. My idea is to add wine to the pages of Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting and then link the deletion list to the Project page. An example is Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Australia which I am active in. That would take care of wine articles that are proposed to "Articles for deletion". Although nobody seems to use it, the template for starting a page like this does include a box for other forms of deletion. I will see if that works. Otherwise I will add another page, also linked to the Project page, that can be edited to add information on articles proposed for prod deletion or speedy deletion, as well as categories, images or templates proposed for deletion at WP:CFD, WP:IFD oder WP:TFD respectively. I will try to transclude them in to the Project page. I'll do ahead and do this after checking it out more. If we do not like it we can get rid of it. We should also think about having something like this other Australia example, Wikipedia:Pages needing attention/Australia, but that could be a later job. Finally, a question on your idea. Does it not depend on the person prodding an article, adding "importance=none" to the Project tag? I think Project members could easily forget to do this and non-Project members would not do it. The advantage of deletion sorting is that a whole of people start to look out for articles to add and it is not that difficult to do it. --Bduke 07:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm not very familiar with deletion sorting, but I'm not sure that it would work for prods. Though it might be nice to have it so that project members can weigh in on full fledged AFDs. There's no debate, so you'd just end up with a list of articles. That, like Agne's idea, seems to depend on the person who's prodding the article to go and remember to add it to the list of prodded articles. (Not commenting on the merits of either proposal, just thinking in text :) --- The Bethling(Talk) 08:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion sorting

I have created Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Wine and transcluded it into the Project page. Please let me know what you think about it. I have also added an entry for wine to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Flat. The template article for creating the deletion sorting page had an infobox to the right near the top for adding deletions that are not AfD or Mfd. It was too narrow and I have never seen it used on any other deletion sorting page. I have therefore added sections at the bottom for other things (prod and speedy deletions, categories, templates and images) to be added. I have added the prods that I know about. Any others? --Bduke 07:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Chateau Yaldara

I have looked into this article, and following my stated wish that major issues be discussed here I am raising some concerns before wading in and editing. This winery certainly has some notability. It seems to have introduced spaetlese wines to Australia. It is not that small. It employs 140 staff and has a revenue of AUS$16 million (US$12.2 million). It exports to the UK and US. However it is owned by McGuigan Wines who have a winery in NSW and Yaldara Estate (as it is actually now called) in South Australia. The combined company claims to be Australia's No 1 public-listed pure wine company. Together there is clearly more notability. I therefore propose to write a new article McGuigan Wines, merge Chateau Yaldara into that article and make the latter a redirect, along with Yaldara Estate. Does this seem a good solution? Is it a general solution? Should we aim for articles on wine companies, if notable enough, rather than their separate wineries, unless of course a particular winery is particularly notable? --Bduke 09:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I think the best option is to go with the wine company when applicable that way we have less stubs and more "compact and compelte" articles. Charleenmerced Talk 13:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
  • This is a great point. I think that most of the "notable" wineries in Australia deserve their own articles. Wineries such as Wolf Blass, Orlando Wines, Hardy Wine Company, for example all have parent companies but definately deserve their own articles. I think it really comes down to how much historical information is available to write a decent articles about the individual wineries. By the way every wine company will say that they are number 1 at something! ◄scharks► 13:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm a bit unclear what you are saying here. I thought Hardy Wine Company was the parent and it is not a winery, but owns several wineries. Orlando is part of Pernod Ricard Pacific and that article lists the other wineries they own - all are redlinks. Should we convert all those redlinks into articles or combine the material. On Yaldara, are you agreeing with me that we write about the two wineries under the parent "McGuigan"? Note: I have just corrected the spelling of McGuigan above. --Bduke 23:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Hardy Wine Company is owned by Constellation Brands. I can see your point RE the red links in Pernod Ricard Pacific, however I was not suggesting that all of those red links should be articles, just the major wineries. Upon further reflection this could get very messy as the structure of wine companies can be quite complex, so it may just be easier to put everything under the parent company. Sections on individual wineries can be split to their own article if they are expanded significantly. Based on this rationale Yaldara could be merged into McGuigans. A good example of what you're proposing is Montana Wines which lists all of the smaller wineries under it rather than these wineries having separate articles. However one could also suggest that Montana be merged into Pernod Ricard NZ which holds the company, or in Pernod Ricard Pacific which holds Pernod Ricard NZ. Its hard to know where to draw the line I guess. ◄scharks► 10:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
        • As the author of the Montana Wines article, I should clarify. The physical wineries there (with the exception of 1) were all built by Montana to be located near their major plantings. Similarly, the brands listed there were all developed by Montana to target different parts of the market. In contrast, other brands they've bought and now own are NOT included in that article. I would be *extremely* reluctant to merge Montana into PRNZ. PRNZ has only existed for a couple of years, and may only exist for a couple of years in much the same way that Allied Domecq NZ only existed for a couple of years. In contrast, Montana was a long-running company with a good degree of history. Having visited both the Barossa and the McGuigan complex in the Hunter, I think it would be a mistake to merge the 2. McGuigan is a large soul-less place (with not very exciting wines). Rather than taking some legal entity yardstick, I would be far more in favour of some concept of history. For this reason, I'm arguing that the Corbans Wines, purchase by Montana, then Allied Domecq and now part of PRNZ deserves to continue existing, because it has an interesting history that PRNZ doesn't. --Limegreen 11:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Hmmm. Two different pieces of advice. McGuigan may be soul-less but it is quite large, so the group probably does deserve an article. I also recall that Brian McGuigan has quite a history, but I need to research it. I'll leave this discussion open, particularly since I'm pretty tied up until the weekend, so I will not get around to writing anything anyway. --Bduke 11:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Thanks for explaining Limegreen, I did not realise that Montana developed in that manner. I also agree with maintaining the history of the wineries as you mentioned. It has become clear that this winery (history) 'vs' parent company (business) issue is not clear cut by any means. ◄scharks► 12:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
            • I was probably being a little unfair to McGuigan, but having toured Barossa, McLarenVale, Clare, and Hunter, it appears the later doesn't have the same sense of history. A lot of the large corporate wineries are still quite impressive to behold (Hardy, Penfold, and Jacob's Creek). I think we should work out what to do with holding companies, however. I note that Pernod Ricard doesn't link to either PRNZ or PR Pacific, and in some ways it would seem that those stubbie articles deserve to be merged back to PR, rather than outfits with more history being merged into them. Any thoughts on this? I think another really interesting aspect is the difference between some wineries that had become quite corporate themselves before being subsumed (e.g., Montana & Corbans), versus wineries that were still quite boutique before being absorbed (e.g. Framingham and Cloudy Bay Vineyards). Certainly Cloudy Bay deserves its own article, rather than being pushed back into Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy.--Limegreen 21:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone interested in helping the Good Article reviewers?

Per this conversation at Wikipedia talk:Good article candidates.
The GA crew are having a bit of a backlog issue at the GA Candidates page and need some help reviewing articles. For those who are unfamiliar with GA, essentially anyone can review an article against the Good Article Criteria and there is a diverse array of topics that need reviewing. It would be a nice way to help out and would also benefit the Wine Project by helping our articles to be reviewed quicker. AgneCheese/Wine 06:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

2 more days left

To help get our current Wine Improvement Drive article Pinot Gris up to GA level quality. A big area in need of improvement is the wine regions. We have only scant info on a few regions. Some more pictures would help too. This grape has been a bit trickier but I know with a concentrated push we can do it. AgneCheese/Wine 09:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Wine Country

A doozy of a conversation. Other opinions are welcome. AgneCheese/Wine 18:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I left a comment, kind of busy so it'll take some time for me to reply again. I do think the name of the article is a case of regionalism. Even here in Washington, "wine country" doesn't mean California, I can't imagine that Australians (for example) would think of Napa when hearing "Wine Country" ---- The Bethling(Talk) 21:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I stated I was going to stay out of the argument, which I believe I started with my post after your linked the article for merge. I now feel even more insistent that the article as it stands now needs to be either completely changed and remain a simple stub with a broad definition (An encyclopedia is not for definitions however) or should be deleted entirely. Thanks for dragging me back into the debate Agne27. By-the-way this also drew me to theCalifornia Wine article which really needs work hopefully this will help or after this term is over I'll get some work done on it.Christopher Tanner, CCC 02:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)tanner-christopher
  • Update I appreciate the good faith effort that User:Anlace is using to add more encyclopedic relevance to the article. That, coupled with the current state of California wine, led me to remove the merge request for now. However the unambiguated Wine Country name is wholly inappropriate and very POV oriented. There is no universal (much less Primary) usage for Wine Country to mean this specific area in California. As I mentioned on the talk page "Wine Country" is like Downtown (which, interestingly has been transwiki'd and is poised for deletion). Every wine producing region has a "wine country" and that article titled is best served as a redirect to List of wine producing regions with the current article at "Wine Country" moved to either Wine Country (California) or California wine country. AgneCheese/Wine 06:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Update I went ahead and put in a move request at Talk:Wine Country with the additional request that wine country become a redirect to List of wine producing regions. I feel that this is the most NPOV destination since it is unfair to assume that ever US Wikipedia reader is searching for this one particular area in California when they think of "wine country", or every Australian, Asian or European reader for that matter. Feel free to chim in with your opinions, whether you agree or disagree. AgneCheese/Wine 19:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, I haven't had experience with changing an article in this way with people so strongly opposing this however. What are the chances of them just arbitrarily changing it back to the way it was beforehand? I am unfamiliar with such processes on here and would hate to see time spent on an idea such as this for no result. Thank you for taking the initiative on this page though. This page is clearly a POV as you stated and Northern California is not the only Wine Country as I noted with the webpage http://www.winecountry.com which you noted as well on that page. Christopher Tanner, CCC 06:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)tanner-christopher

WP:WID and Category:B-Class Wine articles

I'd like to get some thoughts on splitting the focus of the Wine Improvement Drive. I'd like to narrow our WID candidates to those that are currently START or STUB because with those articles the improvement is more drastic and more needed. In theory, our B class articles should be articles that are pretty darn close to attaining GA status and would probably only need a few days attention versus our 2 week WID period. As a project, I think we should continually strive to bring all of these articles up to GA and maybe we could run a parallel project with each newsletter with a B-class adoption article. Essentially I'd like to propose that every B-class article is free to be adopted and every wine project member is challenged to "adopt" one B-class article which will be noted in the newsletter. Over the course of the two week period, we'll see how far we can go in bringing up a couple of these articles up to GA class. Even if only 2 or 3 wine project members adopt an article, that could still dramatically increase our rate of producing GA articles. Any thoughts? AgneCheese/Wine 06:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree that WID should focus for now on Stub and Start aritcles because those are th articles that need it the most. Also, you can really see the change and the improvement and value fixing these articles brings to the project.--Charleenmerced Talk 17:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
  • I agree as well with working on the stub and start articles. Especially if someone is looking for information on here, at least at a B level article, they are getting a head start to gaining more acces to information. Many of the start and stub articles end up being more confusing for individuals with their lack of information. I have the feeling there are quite a few people here that could put their great minds to work in assisting others in learning from their knowledge on these articles. Christopher Tanner, CCC 07:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)tanner-christopher
  • This sounds alright provided that articles are adopted as suggested. I also think that the WID should continue to focus on topics in order of importance. ◄scharks► 12:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Standard structure of a grape article

'Moving conversation over to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wine/Template grape article This is a really important discussion and I don't want to see it get lost in the middle of the Project talk page. AgneCheese/Wine 22:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Bot Archiving?

What does the project think about incorporating a bot(like User:MiszaBot) to handle archiving discussions? It is a bit tedious to do it by hand. AgneCheese/Wine 19:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Werdna bot is out of order at the moment. I will put in a request for Miszabot. AgneCheese/Wine 21:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Heh, after looking at User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo, I fret that I might mess something up. I think I'll ask Schark's pretty please and see if he'll make the request. :) AgneCheese/Wine 21:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Wine Categories

While working on the newsletter (sorry about being late, real life is crazy), I had trouble finding any cohesive listing of wine related categories. Is there something that I'm missing or do we need to be ambitious and create a listing?. AgneCheese/Wine 05:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I started an easy reference list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wine/List of wine related categories. If there is something already existing we can always MfD it. AgneCheese/Wine 23:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you mean WP:CFD. --Bduke 23:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well my list would be miscellany since it is not a category itself. AgneCheese/Wine 00:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Of course, sorry. I thought you were talking about redundant categories. If you want to delete it, as the sole author, you can just tag it for deletion (I forget how) and an admin will come along and delete it. --Bduke 02:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you probably *are* missing the list on the main WP:WINE page... but I like the dedicated page, it's a good idea. Even better if there was a shortcut to it. mikaul 00:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

LOL!. It took me 4 looks to finally see but there it is. Gawd, I must be getting old. :p Well I started the dedicated page that is linked above. Anyone can feel free to have their way with it.AgneCheese/Wine 00:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Related note: I'm not sure how the category links work, but I have some wine-related images over on commons which I can't seem to tag with the enc-based category tags. Do I have to upload pics separately to the encyclopedia to get them onto the category:wine-related images page? mikaultalk 11:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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