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Czopek, Madison (March 27, 2024). "Fact Check: Edited Wikipedia entry doesn't prove Israel caused the Baltimore bridge collapse". PolitiFact. Retrieved March 27, 2024. We checked the Wikipedia pages for the Francis Scott Key Bridge and the new page for the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse, and as of 2 p.m. March 26 neither included a sentence linking Israel to the bridge collapse. ... We rate the claim that an edited Wikipedia entry provides proof that "Israelis deployed Talmudic network to take out" the Baltimore bridge Pants on Fire!
Please can we NOT add copyvio images. There is one non-free image, which I think is useable for now. The NTSB will almost certainly open an investigation, which will lead to reports / news stories from them which will have useable imaged. For now, we need a bit of patience. Mjroots (talk) 11:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's only public domain if the owner of the CCTV was the federal government, or another entity which releases its works to the public domain. -- Beland (talk) 02:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CCTV footage being public domain in the US has never been established by legal precident, and even so that would only apply to completely automated fixed cameras, not remotely operated PTZ cameras like the one that took that footage. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE) 18:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Please add the following sentence to the end of the aftermath section: "The National Transportation Safety Board launched a go team to investigate the accident on March 26." Please use the tweet in my comment above as a source (I'm unsure how to cite a tweet on Wikipedia).
@A.FLOCK I don't think so. c:COM:US#US States does not list Maryland as among the states whose government works are in public domain. The cited source of the image shown on MarylandMatters.org is the Fire Department of the City of Baltimore. The Terms of Use of the fire department's website links to the TOU page of the City website, a portion of which states "Any service marks, trademarks, copyrights, or other intellectual property contained in or displayed on this site, and the contents of any linked sites operated by third parties, are the property of their respective owners (which may be the City)." There is no indication that images created by employees of the city government, including the fire department, are in public domain and can be exploited even for commercial purposes. JWilz12345(Talk|Contrib's.)00:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should not assume that Maryland state or local government products are PD. However ... NTSB has released a B-roll drone video which might be. Acroterion(talk)00:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OR tag in collapse section
The material in question seems like it is indeed OR, as I searched specifically for the speed and the ship's name and got no good sources. What I did get was this Sky News piece which contains similar information (including the specific speed 8.7 knots) from which it may be possible to craft a suitable replacement for the disputed sentence. 78.149.135.163 (talk) 18:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added a link to the Tasman Bridge Disaster to See Also before checking here. I think it is relevant enough to have its own link, but if the consensus disagrees, feel free to remove it. EvanSheppard (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further reading, I concur. We need to watch it though; those sections tend to begin accumulating links that aren't needed. glman (talk) 19:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it for now. I agree, while it involves contact with a bridge, it is an entirely different situation and result. glman (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The Cosco Busan spill shouldn't be linked here, it's an example of what you said about "accumulating links that aren't needed". EvanSheppard (talk) 19:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't currently have a more-specific list, and the List of bridge failures does have multiple relevant entries. And there are multiple ones, so I don't support editors' cherry-picking certain ones as being "most like this one" (WP:ORish). All or none; a specific list, or a genral list with the material scattered in it if we don't have a specific one. DMacks (talk) 21:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It failed; that it did so after (and due to) being hit by a ship doesn't change the fact it is no longer being a bridge. The title of the existing list might want reworking to avoid these concerns in future, though. As for starting a new list covering notable(!) ship-bridge collisions, that seems a good solution both for this article and in general. 78.149.135.163 (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this incident was also a collapse caused by a barge colliding with a bridge support, and it also happened this year. So I think we can add it. コーナーリバー (talk) 02:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally disagree. The linked examples involve a container ship (which is much larger than a river barge) causing the disaster. The bridge in the Lixinsha case had only one span fall, as opposed to the entire main span plus three approach spans.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was the first incident I thought of when I heard about this in the news this morning, since it also resulted in fatalities. And the collision, IIRC, led to the bridge collapsing when the train went across it eight minutes later. Daniel Case (talk) 02:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'd be more open to including it should the death toll of this collapse end up being confirmed and also a high proportion of those in danger (on the bridge or ship). As of now we don't have any fatalities confirmed in this one.--Jasper Deng(talk)03:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barges and container ships are watercrafts, and this happened about a month after Lixinsha incident, and the collision and collapse were similar, so I think it's fair to mention it. コーナーリバー (talk) 03:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Temporal proximity is a weak argument for inclusion. If you can get consensus for this inclusion here I would be fine with reincluding it, though I think we need to be strict with inclusion in the see also section due to the need to minimize the amount of examples.--Jasper Deng(talk)03:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We need to keep the See also section short, and not allow it to become bloated with lots of incidents with a tenuous link to this event. Mjroots (talk) 06:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I partially undid your edit because a small number (5 or less) of highly similar examples easily qualifies as "relevant and limited to a reasonable number". 1 is not a reasonable number. If needed, we should further limit it to incidents in the USA, and specifically involving fracture critical truss bridges. That should be a very small number; the Sunshine Skyway instance is likely the only other one.--Jasper Deng(talk)01:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. see also is really for broader articles or lists that are not already linked, such as the aforementioned list of bridge failures, which does include other bridge collisions. linking any and all ships hitting bridges is a form of editorializing. one could link to nearly any article with any close or tangential relationshp to this article, such as the history of the city, an article on bridge engineering, an article on maritime law, etc. if you cant put such a link in the body of the article, the see also becomes a shopping list of what we as editors may feel is naturally related, when its not necessarily so. see alsos clog up lots of wp articles. its not really helping the project, it can make it unclear to the reader what is really necessary to learn more. 50.193.19.66 (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Various current news media sources are mentioning this Guangzhou collision. As that they see it as a relevant past example, then it should be in our See also. Video of that Guangdong collision is even being shown on TV news coverage of this Baltimore bridge collapse. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 22:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speed
The speed dropped from 8.7 knots to 7.6 between resumption of electric power and the collision. Ref to follow if I can. All the best: RichFarmbrough19:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]
Seeing two sets of figures currently –I'm waiting a bit. It's notable that she was dragging anchors all the while. That's a lot of momentum...! Stay tuned for the sheer kinetics of it all... kencf0618 (talk) 10:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Body pulled from river but not immediately apparent if it was one of the six missing
That source says: "Baltimore City Council Member Phylicia Porter told CNN’s Boris Sanchez on Tuesday afternoon a body had been recovered from the river, but later said she misspoke." The report makes it clear that two people were pulled out, but that six remain missing. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to the article getting updated there was a report about a body being found, but the councilwoman who said that would retract it and clarify she misspoke. Sorry about that. 209.7.245.122 (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked it up, I understand why the word "allision" is being used and it's technically correct, but:
1. I doubt it will be familiar to most readers, so a "note" explaining the term might be appropriate.
2. It is being used interchangeably with collision in the article, which rather defeats the purpose of using the technically correct term; if it is going to be used, I suggest we commit to it.
68.202.117.200 (talk) 20:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that using a technically correct term is appropriate here. The lay-language word seems to have a different technical meaning...better to be right and have readers learn something than wrong (this is not simply a WP:JARGON where a common word would equally suffice). As part of that, and beause I suspect most readers won't know this word (I didn't until I read the WP articles related to this disaster), an explanatory note is a great idea. DMacks (talk) 21:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a native speaker of English language, and none of my family speaks English, so the Internet is the only place where I can learn new words (except very expensive private teacher). Using "allision" in the article was very useful for me. When dictionary in my phone couldn't translate the word, I googled it, and increased my English skills :) 91.188.184.192 (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a native English speaker, and it's a new word to me too! Wikipedia isn't the place for plain English (there's even an entire wiki dedicated to that) so I think the technical term is superior. Orangesclub (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a native speaker and have never heard the word. Maybe a parenthetical could be added by someone better versed in admiralty law since I'd imagine 99 percent of people reading this article have never heard the term and may stumble on it Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 01:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it's the case that a common word would not suffice, why are news sources not using the word allision? Everyone knows what it means when you say collision. If we are going to be pedants and not use collision, even then we can say strike or hit or contact. Learning new words is great, but that is not the purpose of this article. -- Jfhutson (talk) 16:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Per allision, "collision" is when both objects are in motion whereas "allision" is when one is stationary. Presuming the bridge was attached to the rigid pylons going down to the river bottom, the bridge was not moving. Therefore "collision" is incorrect. DMacks (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could we please stop using this word when reliable sources are using "struck," "hit," and "collided?" I've removed it a few times and it keeps coming back. From the MOS page linked above, "Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader when more common alternatives will do." --Jfhutson (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with this. I'm a nerd and I've never seen this word used. It does not appear to appeal to a general audience and is unnecessarily introducing area specific jargon. GMGtalk14:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing that none of the similar articles listed in "See also" use this word. We might want to include it if it was used in an official investigation report by NTSB? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But "allision" is the correct word. Part of Wikipedia's remit is to inform, even where the reader was unaware. I would suggest that [[:wikt:allision|allision]] is used, which gives a link to the Wiktionary entry for allision. 14:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
We don't have to use collision, since the dictionary definition does indeed say two moving bodies (though I would submit that many English users will use it to mean striking a stationary object). Most sources use "struck." That will require some rewriting, but is much clearer than "allision." -- Jfhutson (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This distinction is a necessary one in physical mechanics. Is it of any consequence in assigning responsibility in maritime vessel accident claims? Experience suggests it is important in UK motor vehicle accident claims, even if the word "allision" is never used. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone reading the sentence, "the ship collided with the bridge," read that to mean that the bridge was moving? On the other hand, probably 90% of the people reading "the ship allided with the bridge" are assuming there is a spelling mistake. -- Jfhutson (talk) 16:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue here is that this is a somewhat exceptional event. Allision is the correct term, why use a simpler, yet possibly misleading term 'collision'?. I don't think many sources on aircraft crashes due to a microburst are using the term 'microburst'. We have the artucle to allision linked, I think we should start there before changing text here to be simpler. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by stating that I prefer the accurate terminology over a simplified one, since it is accessible to everyone, both casual readers and experts. We don't refer to the 'port' side of a ship as the 'left' side, even though the latter is simpler. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quite agree, proper terminology might be preferred in an encyclopaedia. But again, referring to the 'left' side of a ship might actually confuse anyone?? I'm still not quite sure what you mean when you say: "We have the artucle to allision linked, I think we should start there before changing text here to be simpler." Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not that it is too hard to understand, it's that it's completely unknown to the readers and its use adds nothing to the reader's understanding. Port and starboard are much better known and they avoid ambiguity. Sometimes a technical term is helpful to explain what happened; "microbursts" are a good example. It's a phenomenon with a WP page. An "allision" is not some special phenomenon but a term of art in a narrow area of law for something everyone already understands and can explain in plain English as a collision or strike. "Allision" adds nothing to the reader's understanding of the accident, and something is taken away by using a technical word that the reader doesn't know. -- Jfhutson (talk) 20:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The definition is straightforward, unlike some pieces of jargon. Academic sources and the NTSB final report almost certainly will use "allision".--Jasper Deng(talk)01:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If that does happen, that would be an opportunity to add a sentence like "The NTSC report did conclude that the allision (collision of a moving vehicle with a stationary object) did..." Other than that, even if the word exists in maritime law speak, I wouldn't consider it correct to use allision normal english sentences.2OO.3OO.2OO.3OO (talk) 05:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I regard "allison" as obscure legal jargon. I very much doubt that anywhere else we say that "the airplane allided with the mountain" or that a car "allided with a parked vehicle." It's an interesting bit of admiralty law jargon that might merit a little bit of explanation somewhere, but "collided" is understandable to all readers. Acroterion(talk)16:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. On Wikipedia, we use formal written English, which means we routinely use technical terminology in common use in particular fields. For example, like most college graduates, my mathematical education terminated with integrals and differential equations, but that doesn't give me the right to insist that the article on general relativity ought to be rewritten in algebraic terms (i.e., as the subject is taught in physics courses to people who have not yet mastered calculus). The Key Bridge collapse is a maritime incident, so we should use the correct maritime terminology. --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Legal language is not renowned for understandability to laymen - there's a reason "legalese" is a term, and legalese should generally be avoided outside a courtroom, and not encouraged in an encyclopedia article. This isn't calculus. It seems to me that we're being overly pedantic in our emphasis on that term. Acroterion(talk)17:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
seems like a quick mention that the correct term is allision, but that common usage (as in a lot of news articles and discussions) use the term collision as a blanket term including moving objects striking stationary objects. then it doesnt matter which term is used in our article, as long as the first use of "allision" is explained. i am highly literate in english and never heard this term until this week. explanatory note seems entirely justified.50.193.19.66 (talk) 18:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about splitting the difference: we start off with "allision" and mentioning its meaning, then switch to a more common term for the rest of the article which is also used in WP:RS, such as "struck." — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite20:56, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Allision should be used in the infobox, as the section pertains to "property damage". It is therefore relevant to use the correct terminology. In the article prose, sure, use whatever other language. Start an RfC if you wish to reach consensus against this. Rowing007 (talk) 13:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If anything, the infobox should be more accessible than the article. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize key facts about the subject, which is best done with plain English. This obscure term in maritime law is not a key fact about the subject, but now that we insist on using it we have to put a footnote in the infobox to explain its meaning. People keep saying this is "the correct term," that is not true, there are multiple correct terms to use for a ship hitting a bridge, and the preferred terms when not in a technical legal setting are collision, strike, and hit. -- Jfhutson (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aftermath
Can we subdivide this section into two, splitting things that happened in the hours after the incident from the more long-term implications, such as the planned change of port for exported motor vehicles? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits22:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised there is no discussion about pillar protection which is quite common in other bridges that straddle some of the busiest water ways in the world. Most bridges are over-engineered to withstand or have protection for support pillars - some generic basic discussion is highly informative. Rwat128 (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We need WP:RS that cover this. We can, once we have it, certainly refer to the increase in size, bow strength and tonnage of the larges ships compared with when the bridge was specified and built. All the best: RichFarmbrough14:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]
When it is available, it would hopefully address the great amount of flare in container ship bows to allow as much of the ship's length as possible to carry containers. In the 1970s few ships other than aircraft carriers had such dramatic flare. A protection scheme envisioned at that time would not necessarily be sufficient, mass and speed issues aside. Acroterion(talk)16:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And in point of fact, there is a substantial discussion of the bridge's dolphins, a previous collision, and other matters at CNN that looks like a good source [2]. Acroterion(talk)03:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since this has been edit warredover: @Cutlass and Obankston: You ought to discuss the inclusion of it here. Whether the ship is salvageable is going to be an important piece of information to have in this section and thus the section should be kept, unless it better fits in the ship's article. Jasper Deng(talk)01:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingsif: It's obvious that I mean that I expect that information to become available, and that this section would be a good place to put it when it does. Nowhere did I suggest actually putting it in right now. All I wanted to do is start a conversation over whether to have this section. Don't attempt to close discussions that pertain to editing the article that haven't had their fair chance to occur, and certainly not without actually reading through the whole thing.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not an IP. No reasonable editor would read into my comment like that. If you had read it properly, you would've understood that. So by contraposition, that is evidence that you did not read my comment.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never said you were an IP, and my comment has no reading into anything. I have to assume you are not reading my comments properly. My whole point - which reading above and below you can very easily piece together - is that there are lots of non-regular users coming to this talkpage wanting to chat speculation, and as I see it, your opening comment is a massive invitation to do that. I never thought that was your intention. Would you like to stop making accusation after accusation. Kingsif (talk) 02:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't call the kettle black. You're the one bringing unfounded charges of OR and were the one closing this section. My comment that I'm not an IP is to imply that you should've had a second reading into why I'd make that comment instead of just assuming I am trying to invite OR.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, you're not in a position to tell others to "calm down". In fact I have no calming to do. Don't get yourself involved in this discussion any further unless you actually are going to be helpful, which you're not by continuing to discuss this.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having read the edits linked and this whole discussion before I interacted with it all – hence I also denounce Jasper Deng for making flagrant assumptions of bad faith (accusing users of closing without reading, edit warring for one revert) within minutes of that, and this must be noted, as he has continued to act in such a manner – it's clearly something that does not need to be discussed. The "disputed" text in the article did not mention Whether the ship is salvageable, simply repeating information from the sources that stated the known damage and what is known to still function. It doesn't really matter whether that is included or not, as most of the "need-to-know" information contained within it is already present elsewhere, but it's not harmful. At the time I closed the thread, the editing around this "disputed" content had ceased, so the purpose of the thread to discuss it was fulfilled. I did not simply leave or archive the thread because Jasper Deng had written the opening request in a way (highlighting salvageable, suggesting necessary future information) that can more than easily invite FORUM and OR responses (users joining in after the original resolution to discuss their views on whether the ship is salvageable). Archiving would prevent this, but closing with a note also helps prevent similar threads from being opened. So I would advise such a close once more, now that the thread's purpose has been met. Kingsif (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jumping the gun again I see. The editor who wishes to keep it, Obankston, has not responded yet and has not had a fair chance to do so. And you clearly are failing to WP:AAGF (if I had assumed bad faith, it would've involved hauling you to WP:ANI or otherwise requesting administrative action immediately). Once again you are clearly misreading my comment, not in bad faith, but still misreading it, and therefore your closure was not justified.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Outright saying you think someone did not read a thread before deciding to take BOLD closing action, is assuming bad faith closure. Accusing the two other users of edit warring over one explained revert is either assuming they are going to continue, or assuming that addition and reversion were both made in bad faith. They're far from the worst examples of assuming bad faith, but they have not been helpful. Kingsif (talk) 02:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. It is possible to not read comments thoroughly and do it in good faith, which is what you did right here. Let this conversation proceed between the original disputing editors and disengage, immedaitely; your comments are not helpful the slightest.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Folks, can we turn our attention to editing the article and coordinating changes? This interpersonal sniping is taking up a lot of time and space and emotional energy. -- Beland (talk) 02:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should this be included or not? I don't think so as nobody on the ship was injured, and as indicated as well in the article that a bridge did in fact fall on the Dali. It's also not included in the similar Summit Venture collision with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge. CutlassCiera01:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed 100%. @Obankston: Can you please comment here? The content will not likely stay if you don't help build consensus for it. I really think it would be much easier of a question if we did not already have an article on the ship itself. I would argue that the current section meets WP:DUE, but this is going to ever-change because sources on both are popping up very quickly.--Jasper Deng(talk)02:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I would say include, but not as a standalone section. Preferably added right after A section of the bridge came to rest on the tip of the bow of Dali with the "After the collision" part removed. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:15, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This tip of the bow irks me. Firstly tip is redundant when that's what bow means. Secondly, it's obvious from the daytime photographs that the bow is clear, protruding to the east.
So it should say something like a section of the truss lies abeam the ship just aft of the bow or a section of the truss lies across the bow section.Martin Kealey (talk) 13:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue of whether or not to include the section "Ship damage" was solved without my intervention by trim excessive section headings combining the sections "Bridge damage" and "Ship damage" into a single section "Damage". In my mind, there is sufficient distinction between the two types of damage to have two sections because one is fixed and the other is movable, but I'll let stand the change to combine them. There is more information from WP:RS about ship damage than there is about bridge damage, so why would we exclude ship damage? The comment "nobody on the ship was injured" is an irrelevant reason to decide whether or not to include information about ship damage, because injuries or the absence thereof belong in the section Casualties. As it turns out, there was some pollution from the ship caused by ship damage, which is notable. Perhaps when the article is mature, damage to the ship belongs in the article for the ship, but when the event is ongoing and the ship has not been moved yet and is still next to the bridge, ship damage should stay with bridge damage. Obankston (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2024
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
In "Ship damage", under "Allision and bridge collapse", there is a note saying a non-primary source is needed. I believe this note can be removed, since the source is about the company's claim, not about wheter or not the claim is true. Minaspen (talk) 08:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SECONDARY is preceded by WP:PRIMARY, which says "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia [...] to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." This applies to the text in question. The request is perfectly specific (albeit since made superfluous). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits15:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Timeline
In the Collapse section of the article the timeline of events seems out of sorts.
00:44 left port, 01:26 power loss, 01:30 mayday call to DOT of lost of control and allision possible, 01:28? collision with bridge occurred, 01:30? calls to 911 begin. Straykat99 (talk) 13:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have came across a radio transcript with timestamps from the NYT article, as such, the time the radio dispatched the officers closed the bridge to traffic seems contradictory to the time of collapse on video and as reported to radio dispatch (there may also be a delay when the bridge collapses and when radio dispatch finds out about the collapse). I have also checked the webcam feed and noted at the time of posting, the webcam's clock is approximately 31 seconds behind UTC-04 EDT time (also accouting for livestream latancy delay). I'm not sure how much clock drift the webcam has had, in the past 44 hours since collapse. Toran107 (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although there is no guideline for it, the long-standing interpretation of WP:GNG within WP:SHIPS is that large commercial ships are considered notable even if they have not been involved in any major incident such as this one. See also WP:SHIPOUTCOMES. Tupsumato (talk) 19:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The situation may be similar to that of Ever Given? If a container ship gets stuck/ demolishes a bridge, it may or may not be very notable. But the economic consequences of each of these two accidents are really so huge, that the ship itself gets catapulted into the realms of notability pretty quickly? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are similarities [4], sure, but WP:OTHERCONTENT isn't a good argument. Also "is one of the largest container ships in the world." Anyway, I have no intention of afd:ing atm, might take another look in the future. It's not like there are serious WP:PROMO problems or anything like that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the prior issues, I would recommend a second check on the copyright status just to be safe on the matter of using it, but so far I don't see any obvious issues. (At the least, thank you for pointing it out.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this not normally how ships are treated? Compare something like Exxon Valdez. It may be a flag of convenience, but it's international maritime trade. AFAIK, it's pretty normal for it to be complicated, but (again, AFAIK) the flag is the primary identifier of the nationality of the ship according to maritime law. GMGtalk11:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "Singapore-flagged" in the lead also made me uncomfortable when I previously saw it. I'd like to hear from maritime editors about this. I'd be more inclined to support keeping it there if being Singapore-flagged meant that there was a significant chance Singaporean nationals were responsible for the ship's maintenance (and thereby potentially for the incident). Sdkbtalk16:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable source coverage rarely mentions, let alone emphasizes, the ship's flag state or the crew's nationality. It should not be in the lead. -- Jfhutson (talk) 16:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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The Damage section needs a wording tweak:
However, the ship remains watertight, and the shipping company claimed there was no water pollution directly from the ship following the incident. Despite the claim, on March 27 the NTSB announced that they are investigating a hazmat spill coming from breached containers onboard Dali, including containers carrying corrosive and flammable materials and lithium batteries.
To become
The ship remains watertight, and the shipping company stated there was no water pollution directly from the ship following the incident. On March 27 the NTSB announced that they are investigating a hazmat spill coming from breached containers onboard Dali, including containers carrying corrosive and flammable materials and lithium batteries.
Why:
Don't start a sentence with however
The shipping company "claimed" implies dishonesty. They've made a statement, report it as such
"Despite the claim" deleted this, again implies dishonesty.
For the last two points, it's actually accurate. There is no spill directly from the ship rather there may be leaking from containers on the ship and those are different things. Directly from the ship would be fuel oil, bilge, etc. Should be pretty easy to fix the neutrality on this. Thanks.
--24.125.98.89 (talk) 12:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC) 24.125.98.89 (talk) 12:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The archiver is set for 3 days. But several were archived before that and while still active discussion; I un-archived the ones of those I noticed. Others seem to have been inactive (either resolved or mooted by time), so I left them archived. No prejudice against further un-archiving them if anyone has interest. DMacks (talk) 14:18, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree re: captions but not about the compass – the image displays information on the Y and Z axes, the compass on the X and Y (and so north isn't to the top right of the image). Is there precedent for this, or could we use a caption that says "viewed to the north-west" or something? MIDI (talk) 15:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Valid concern about the compass (I guess I'm more accustomed to looking at these sorts of 3D things). What if the town-name labels also including their specific directions (like "north-east" on the Dundalk side)? DMacks (talk) 15:18, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another option would be something like this (like this; it's just a quickly cobbled-together example)—a freely available aerial view of the bridge, with an SVG overlay with or without labels, place names etc. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 16:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An excellent start! The original image was taken 30 March 2007 but it'll certainly serve as a template. (The hexagonal Fort Carroll east by south (EbS) certainly won't remain an involuntary park for long...!) kencf0618 (talk) 23:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've refined the image and added place labels and Dali paths (based on AIS data). The background image may be 18 years old but not much seems to have changed (not enough to make it inaccurate, anyway). Again, if this is something that might be useful for the article... suggestions welcome. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 14:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I WP:BOLDly put it last night and then ran out of gas. Given its provenance and orientation I would only add where "Up" is for those who don't know how Baltimore/Maryland geography works –I certainly don't! ~Regards. kencf0618 (talk) 13:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The overlay image is completely inaccurate. That is NOT the path that ships take out of the harbor. Stop OR-ing (or outright guessing) and wait for sources to cite. It's outright ridiculous to anyone actually familiar with the harbor. -- Veggies (talk) 15:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. That is not the shipping channel path and, obviously, not the path that the Dali took. I would have thought "no original research" is something that admins would have ingrained. -- Veggies (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've cleaned up the description of the bridge's location; "between Baltimore and Dundalk" makes no geographic sense, the city of Baltimore proper is on the north side of the river, adjoining Dundalk. There happens to be an outlying portion within the city limits at the south terminus, but it is far removed from the city itself, and functionally is more closely related to Anne Arundel County than the city. In order to not get into too much local detail, "outside Baltimore" or "to the east of Baltimore is probably best. I've made it a little more clear in the article about the bridge itself. Acroterion(talk)16:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And it appears to have been reinstated - "between Baltimore and Dundalk" is nonsensical, except in a very legalistic sense - Hawkins Point is mostly landfill, park and docks, far from the city, but technically within city limits. The urbanized city of Baltimore is north of the Patapsco, directly adjoining Dundalk. You don't need to cross the river to get to Dundalk from Baltimore, let's stop confusing people. It's a little like asserting that the Outerbridge Crossing, a directly analogous crossing, spans from Perth Amboy to New York City, instead of saying, as our article correctly states, "between Perth Amboy, New Jersey, and Staten Island, New York." Acroterion(talk)03:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FAO @Reywas92 but also others: I've taken the list timeline out of the page for now; this info can be better used by working it into the prose. The list doesn't cite any sources, and there's new info introduced in it not otherwise sourced in the article. That needs fixing, but I presume it's all verifiable information. Rationale for moving to talk page is that editors can pick from the list here and reintegrate into the prose with inline citations.
00:39 EDT /UTC-4 (approximate): The MV Dali gets underway from her berth at Seagirt Terminal in the Port of Baltimore. The pilots release the tugs shortly thereafter.
01:25 (approximate): Multiple alarms go off; Voyage Data Recorder (VDR) ceases recording electronic system data. Bridge audio is recorded using backup power.
01:27:04: Pilot gives order to drop anchor and issues additional steering commands.
01:27:25: Pilot makes general radio call over VHF that Dali had lost all power and was approaching the Key Bridge. MDTA units have been dispatched to shut down Key Bridge.
The NY Times and others refer to the timestamps of realtime video feeds such as this one [6] which show a splash and collision from 1:28:45 to 1:28:50 and bridge collapse by 1:28:55, which is slightly at odds with VDR audio starting at 1:29:00 – SJ +02:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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The Collapse section correctly says: "Multiple vehicles were on the bridge at the time it collapsed" -- but the rest of the sentence is outdated and should be deleted: "though no one was believed to be inside them" -- now that the Casualties section explains with reliable references: "The bodies of two of the construction crew were recovered from inside a pickup truck ... from a depth of 25 feet." Many thanks. — 98.113.83.5 (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know, but please reconsider. There's no need for an encyclopedia to preserve outdated, insensitive, and highly misleading information, especially about the recently deceased. —98.113.83.5 (talk) 02:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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There is a factual error in the article in the line:
However, engineers noted that its piers, which are essential to the structure's integrity, did not appear to have protective barriers, such as fenders, to block, deflect or withstand the collision.[47][48]
This is simply untrue, as I make clear in my article in The Conversation:
There were both dolphin and fender protections. Indeed, the fender protection for the FSK Bridge, is given as an example in the ASSHTO guide and commentary for ship collision protection (https://store.transportation.org/Item/PublicationDetail?ID=1346). The dolphin protection is clearly visible from photographs of the bridge as circular reinforced concrete elements about 100m or so outside the bridge piers.
Suggest change:
However, engineers noted that its piers, which are essential to the structure's integrity, did not appear to have protective barriers, such as fenders, to block, deflect or withstand the collision.[47][48]
I looked at the existing sources and I think they’re compatible with your proposed text. They say the protection was insufficient, not non-existent. I used your statement and source but retained the existing sources as well. — Jfhutson (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It still says engineers noted that its piers did not appear to have protective barriers.
This is false, as seen in the image beside the text which shows the fenders!
Current wording states that the bill currently under consideration in the Maryland legislature to allow for a one-year state of emergency for critical infrastructure would also allow the government to seize private property for government use. However, in the original source it makes clear that the bill restricts certain government powers normally granted during a declared state of emergency INCLUDING the right to seize private property. 96.234.147.110 (talk) 05:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone remove 'namely' from the first paragraph of the Casualties section, since they are not actually being named. (I don't have a login so can't edit this page, apparently) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.94.2.10 (talk) 09:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of these just seem to be "something some dude posted on twitter" without a lot of indication why it matters. I'm not sure that kind of thing rises to the level of encyclopedic relevance, although I understand that PF is probably trying to get ahead of the curve here. I'm going to assume that there is a twitter conspiracy somewhere about Oppenheimer winning Best Picture because Oppenheimer himself was a Jew. I would prefer a general piece about conspiracy theories and not PF checking individual tweets. Twitter is truly the very bottom rung of social discourse, that makes 4chan and comments on PornHub seem like philosophy in comparison. GMGtalk11:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, atm all of the relevant articles seems to be "people wrote crap on social media", at least going by the headlines. We could have a sentence saying basically that, but... meh. There could be interesting non-conspiracy info in there, though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They have a different mission, and I'm sure they hopped on random tweets before and had something in place when it blew up. Just not sure that's a level of proactiveness that jives with the mission of WP. GMGtalk11:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To summarize, the ship was Chinese, with a Ukranian captain, the crash, planned by Mitch McConnell, was intendended to distract the public from Sean "Diddy" Combs, and the bridge was racist. Don't tell me this doesn't make sense. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:07, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All I see is potentially a sentence or two like Following the collapse, a variety of conspiracy theories about the bridge and the collapse itself were posted to social media.[Ref][Ref][Ref] Some included doctored images or images and videos of other unrelated events presented as being from the fires, such as footage from the 2022 Crimean Bridge explosion.[Ref] mainly based off this article. Though there are a decent number of conspiracy theories, I don't believe we would need a standalone section. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against the content in principle. I just think it needs to percolate to the surface a little more and get more general coverage not specifically dedicated to debunking individual tweets. Conspiracy nutters are nutters with too much time and red bull. If we're using a bar that is too low, we're probably making an argument that could be applied to literally a million articles. Compare something like COVID where the conspiracy theories were clearly a topic in their own right and received widespread coverage as a topic unto itself. GMGtalk10:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We already say "The bodies of two of the construction crew were recovered from inside a pickup truck: a 35-year-old Mexican national and a 26-year-old Guatemalan national". Rutsq (talk) 18:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
Oppose. I don't see anything grammatically wrong with the current title, and it sounds more natural. The title is distinguished from the name of the bridge by the word "collapse". Station1 (talk) 05:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. WP:CONCISE and WP:NCE. There's a clear precedent that we follow the "YEAR (IF NECESSARY)LOCATION AND/OR OTHER DESCRIPTORTYPE OF EVENT" format for naming articles that cover events. List of bridge failures shows that similar events which have their own article (rather than a subsection of the bridge article) follow this format too. MIDI (talk) 08:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose as "Collapse of (insert name)" would better refer to an institution or a system, while "(Insert name) collapse" better suits a structure that collapsed.YBSOne (talk) 11:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per all the above. Plus "to distinguish the name of this article from the name of the bridge proper", uh, this is distinguished in the current title by having collapse at the end. MisawaSakura (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"At least five submerged vehicles, including three passenger vehicles and a transit mixer, were detected using sonar. ... The bodies of two of the construction crew were recovered from inside a pickup truck." Was the pick-up truck one of the passenger vehicles? Was it the fifth vehicle? Was it a sixth vehicle? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The collapsed part of the bridge includes the three spans under the metal truss, and three more to the northeast (left of the images in Dundalk, Maryland). The right side of the images is Hawkins Point, Baltimore.[1]
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Done Now added. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Not done Edit requests need to be more specific than this, and you are not correct per WP:SECONDARY.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Fixed by this edit. LightNightLights (talk • contribs) 14:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
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