Talk:Arianism

"Christological doctrine" vs "Heresy"

Arianism is widely regarded as a heresy, and is listed as such by Encyclopædia Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/summary/Arianism#:~:text=Arianism%2C%20Christian%20heresy%20that%20declared,a%20creature%20with%20a%20beginning.

I would argue that the term "Christological doctrine" used on this page is not satisfactory; it does not indicate the fact that this doctrine is deemed heresy by the vast majority of Christians.

Perhaps a term combining both of these aspects of the doctrine would be more suitable, such as "Heretical Christological doctrine", or similar. 85.166.156.145 (talk) 11:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Heresy is a recurring topic of this Wikipedia article on Arianism, so I agree that the first sentence should reflect this better. In the current version heresy is not mentioned before the third paragraph, an the wording "Christological doctrine" could make a casual reader expect Arianism to be a core belief for many Christians, which is clearly not the case when all mainstream branches of Christianity consider Arianism to be heresy. When prompting ChatGPT to summarize Arianism based on the first part of the Wikipedia article, the contrast to mainstream Christianity (https://chat.openai.com/share/cd974aac-f43c-431a-ae71-50d06f511a7b). It should also be noted that the Wikipedia article on Christianity do not bother to include nontrinitarians when graphically presenting the major branches of Christianity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity#Churches_and_denominations). 2001:700:302:10:0:0:0:24 (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Arianism used to be a core belief for many Christians in the High Middle Ages. In particular, bishop Ulfilas, apostle to the Goths and author of the Gothic thanslation of the Bible, was of that tendency. Arianism was, however, fought against by Christians holding opposite beliefs, who pejoratively labeled it heresy in order better to destroy it, and the result is that with the passing of time it has all but disappeared. From a Catholic, Orthodox, or even (I think) Protestant point of view Arianism is still considered heresy, but let us not forget that any Christian system of belief not in agreement with the doctrines of Rome (including, to mention the two most controversial tenets, Mary's immaculate conception and the Pope's infallibility) is also held as heresy by the Roman church regardless of the number of its practitioners. IMHO labeling Arianism as heresy all the way from top to bottom of the article would be against WP:NPOV. — Tonymec (talk) 21:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I endorse "heresy", so long as we explain that heretics and not wrong by default, and the orthodox are not right by default. Besides, many Christian denominations call many other Christian denominations "heretics", so it's not like Wikipedia is taking sides. That is, for every Christian, it is quite normal that they are considered heretics by dozens of Christian denominations. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:53, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Questionable polling survey inclusion

A "lifeway research" poll conducted on behalf of "Ligonier Ministries" (a calvinist outreach organization) conducted a poll of "Americans with Evangelical Beliefs" titled the State of Theology, 2020.

This study did not include catholics, and yet a significant error was previously included in this article with attempts to portray 80% of American Roman Catholics as Arian Heretics.

This is sourced completely out of thin air, from a study which did not include nor even mention the word "catholic" and conducted by a very specific sect of Reformed theology calvinists and published by a Southern Baptist Evangelical publisher.

Not only the polling organization, its publisher AND the survey itself, as well as the included intentional misrepresentation of its data, methods, respondents, and results all represent a gross violation of POV as well as inclusion of simply incorrect and non factual information.

I have thusly removed that section. 2600:6C5E:4B7F:F095:297E:240D:E4CC:766B (talk) 15:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The State of American Theology Study 2020 that is linked in the article specifically points out differences in the survey results for various groups, including Evangelical, Mainline, Black Protestant, and Catholic. So your contention that it does not mention the word catholic is incorrect. I am reverting your edit until you can supply a reliable source that supports your contention. Indyguy (talk) 16:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

nope, see PAGE 48 and tell me where you see any evidence that 80% of all American catholics are Arian heretics? Furthermore, please explain the purpose of the R.C. Sproul dominated organization's survey to be included in this article at all?

Your Lutheran axe-to-grind is noted however. 2600:6C5E:4B7F:F095:297E:240D:E4CC:766B (talk) 16:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you that the 80% figure is incorrect—it's actually about 66%, which is not a huge difference. However, I'm not going to restore the material because the same survey also said that an even larger percentage believed in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. Obviously it's a logical inconsistency to believe in both statements. The problem with surveys like this is that the bare questions mislead the responders. In this case I suspect that the fact that Jesus, who is the eternal Son of God, was also born as a man misleads respondents when they asked a question without further context. The doctrine of the Trinity is a paradoxical mystery, so it's not surprising that non-theologians don't understand its intricacies.

That the organization conducting the survey is Baptist/Protestant does not mean that the survey results are biased against Catholics. The Catholic Encyclopedia is used in a number of articles, but that doesn't mean it can't be used as a source even though it is "biased" against Protestants..

As far as my having a :Lutheran axe-to-grind", please assume good faith. I would not be surprised if a majority of Lutherans would answer this question in the same way as the majority of Catholics. Indyguy (talk) 20:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)