Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment
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Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.
No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).
Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
---|---|---|---|
Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
Clarification request: Contentious topics restrictions | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland | Motion | (orig. case) | 21 June 2024 |
Clarification request: Noleander | none | (orig. case) | 11 July 2024 |
Amendment request: Durova | Motion | (orig. case) | 4 July 2024 |
Amendment request: Suspension of Beeblebrox | none | none | 10 July 2024 |
Clarification request: Desysoppings | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
No arbitrator motions are currently open.
Requests for clarification and amendment
Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads
There is a rough consensus among participating Committee members that while links to off-wiki threads are not automatically prohibited, it is the responsibility of the linking editor to ensure that doing so does not violate the harassment policy as violations may result in suppression and sanctions. It was emphasised by members that the Community should decide where the threshold of acceptability is. Further discussion on whether quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is continued below. Sdrqaz (talk) 00:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by Just Step SidewaysTwo recent situations have revealed what appears to be some vagueness regarding when and if users should email private evidence to the committee, the utility of doing so when it concerns a curent on-wiki, but non-ArbCom discussion, and also if merely saying that a thread exists is not permitted. (I seem to recall that there is a case somewhere where the committee discussed very similar issues, but I've been unable to locate it in the archives.)
I feel like this has the potantial to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites, no matter how innocuous their posts are the topic being discussed may be, and that even mentioning the name of a thread on such a site is now forbidden, which seems a bit extreme to me. I understand and agree that directly posting a link on-wiki to a specific post that contains outing is a clear violation of the outing policy. It is less clear to me that posting merely the name of an extremely long thread with no actual link to the thread at all is a violation. I would therefore ask that the committee clarify where the line is. I've deliberately not named the individuals involved in these incidents as this is matter of interpretation of policy, specifically Wikipedia:Oversight. I can email more detailed information if needed but I imagine it should be fairly easy for you all to determine what I'm referring to. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishI think it would be very interesting to hear ArbCom opinions on this question. In part, this issue comes up in the context of the 2024 RfA reform discussions heading in the direction of wanting accusations of wrongdoing against RfA candidates to be backed up with specific evidence, and the question comes up of how to provide specific evidence when it cannot be posted onsite. Does ArbCom want editors to submit such evidence about RfA candidates to ArbCom, and if so, can ArbCom respond to the evidence in a way that is sufficiently timely to be useful for RfA? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by FloqI have lots of thoughts, but they boil down to: we will not link to (or obliquely mention) any thread with outing/doxxing; consider whether it is accessible to the public so it can be verified; and consider whether the WP user has linked themselves to the off-wiki account. If any of the 3 tests fail, then you can't bring it up at RFA (or anywhere else at WP). Sorry, the world is imperfect. Based on this, you would very often be able to discuss a Discord discussion, and very often not be able to discuss a WO discussion, but with exceptions in both cases. It seems like further details on this aren't useful until and unless I become God Emperor of WP, and can just implement it, but I can expand if someone wants. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by VanamondeI see this as a matter for the community, rather than ARBCOM. To me the heart of the matter is if, and how, we can discuss Wikipedia editors' off-wiki activities. ARBCOM has a role to play when off-wiki conduct impinges on on-wiki matters enough; typically, for harassment, collusion, or other disruption of our core purpose. The off-wiki conduct that has become a matter of discussion at RFA is very different: it isn't a violation of any of our PAGs, it is just behavior some editors find objectionable in an RFA candidate. We treat the off-wiki lives of our editors as private, and rightfully so. Discord and WPO are weird, in that they are strictly off-wiki fora populated by a large number of Wikipedians in good standing. I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take that behavior there shouldn't be immune to on-wiki scrutiny if it becomes relevant to on-wiki matters; I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that what happens off-wiki should stay there until and unless our PAGs are being violated, and then it needs to go to ARBCOM. But that's an area in which current policy seems to not cover all the contingencies, and the community needs to grapple with that. I don't see how a comment like this is useful to send to ARBCOM, or what ARBCOM could do if it was; but we're clearly unsettled as a community that it was posted, and we need to figure out guidelines for it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Joe RoeI agree that some clarification from the committee on these matters would be helpful. This isn't entirely up to them—for example, the ban on discussing Discord discussions is the result of a community RfC and it would be inappropriate to modify it either way here—but ArbCom has historically played a role in making editors feel generally uncomfortable about linking to things off-wiki. More specifically, a 2007 remedy pronouncing that quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is still on the books and still cited in WP:EMAILPOST. Does the current committee agree with this interpretation? In addition, ArbCom has a responsibility to regulate the oversight team, and I've had a feeling for a long time now that they been enforce an extremely broad understanding of what constitutes "outing" that is not necessarily reflective of broader community opinion. Some direction there could also be very helpful: OS is used as "tool of first resort", or so the mantra goes, but we shouldn't underestimate how chilling it is to have an edit suppressed. – Joe (talk) 08:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by FerretI'd like an opinion on this as well, not necessarily just for RFA. Specific to WP:Discord, I !voted in the Discord RFC to restrict copying and linking Discord messages. I did so based on my reading of OUTING, HARASSMENT, and the community expectations of IRC logs, rather than strictly what I'd prefer. That consideration included what Joe references about the copyright concern of "private" messages, which seems to be part of the long standing rationale around IRC messages. I've also seen several times people suggest that OUTING goes as far as covering someone outing themselves on another Wikimedia project (i.e. a user page on eswiki), meaning that's not good enough to mention here on English Wikipedia. Prior to SUL, that may well have been, but SUL is long done. So what I'm really driving at is: Where is the line on identifying yourself sufficiently to be mentioned on site? Particular to the Discord, we have OAuth integration through an open source bot hosted on WMF resources. Is this enough to count as self-disclosure? Or does the connection to Discord have to be on-site (i.e. a userbox or otherwise)? Revisiting the Discord RFC is on the community, but some of these questions, such as EMAILPOST and how OS will act, are at least partially under Arbcom as Joe notes. -- ferret (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ThryduulfRegarding Ferret's comments regarding disclosures on other SUL wikis. I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously, but I don't remember where. I don't think a single hard and fast rule can be applied to that, but it's a matter of how reasonable it is to expect en.wp editors to be aware of the disclosure. For example if you make a disclosure on another wiki and you prominently link to that page from your userpage here, that should count as disclosing it here. If you disclose something on your e.g. eswiki userpage and make it clear on your userpage here that you contribute to eswiki, then again it's reasonable to take that as having been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. However, if you state something on the e.g. Russian wikisource's equivalent of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and don't link to that page here, then it has not been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. Obviously there will be many things in between the extremes that can only be decided on a case-by-case basis. However, unless you are sure it has been intentionally or obviously disclosed somewhere it is reasonable to expect English Wikipedia editors to be aware of, then assume it has not been disclosed. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by hako
@Levivich Statement by JclemensCaptainEek Statements like
Statement by LevivichA couple of days ago on WPO, Vigilant, the WPO user who most often doxes Wikipedia editors and openly threatens to continue doing so, wrote, in response to Eek's comments here, "Sounds like Eek needs an exposé" (link omitted). JSS/Beebs, you posted in that same thread over there six times since that post was made, and not a single word about this very open threat. Here, your third post is "Dispairaiging remarks like 'No need to point people to WPO to hear ten blocked trolls give their opinions on it.' aren't helpful." That's pretty bad: you take the time to criticize someone for criticizing WPO, but you don't criticize WPO for threatening to 'expose' editors. (Also, Beebs, give up the "but they read it!" line of argument. Of course people who criticize WPO read it. Just like people on WPO read Wikipedia even though they criticize Wikipedia. This is not the "gotcha" that you seem to think it is: if people didn't criticize things they read, or didn't read the things they criticize, there would no criticism at all. Perhaps that's what you want?) So w/r/t JSS's comment in the OP that "this has the potential to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites," that chilling effect is good and we want that. Just like WPO is trying to create a chilling effect on Wikipedia by threatening to dox editors they disagree with, Wikipedia should create a chilling effect, or a taboo, about participating in off-wiki websites that dox editors, even if those websites refer to themselves as "criticism sites." There are other reasons not to have a blanket prohibition on linking or referring to another website (one of those reasons is so we can call people out for their Statement by JPxGWhile I think the idea of prohibiting mention of the ignominious badsites and offsites was done with the best of intentions, it seems to very obviously and directly facilitate and enable any manner of bad behavior. In general, the way it ends up working in practice is something like:
Here is another example:
Another:
Whatever the reasoning was behind this omerta stuff, it seems in practice to have almost entirely bad implications -- it certainly doesn't stop people from going to WPO and doing whatever they want (trash-talking other editors, getting out the vote for RfCs/AfDs/etc, weird mafioso larping) -- the only thing it actually stops is us talking about it or doing something about it. Contrariwise, this isn't even much of a benefit for WPO -- people onwiki are also completely free to just say stuff with no evidence because "well I can't link to it or tell anybody what it is". jp×g🗯️ 03:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanAs the victim of doxxing (and threats of same) and nasty, uncivil, and snide criticism on the named off-wiki website by at least one admin (who should lose their tools) and a few fringe(*) editors here, the comment by @Just Step Sideways: is very ironic. (* "Fringe" is defined as editors who get their POV from unreliable sources and edit and discuss accordingly here.) Just Step Sideways writes:
Whatever happened to the matter of far more importance to Wikipedia, and that is the chilling effect HERE created by those nasty off-wiki comments from other editors who should be considered good-faith colleagues here? How can one edit and discuss around such editors and ever feel safe again? The "enjoyment of editing" here is totally undermined by them. Trust has been violated. The chilling effect is enormous and constant, and one lives under a cloud of pressure from their illicit and bad faith stalking and harassment. I know this will immediately be reported there by traitors from here, but it needs to be said. Editors need to be protected, and their enjoyment of editing here should not be threatened by uncollegial criticism, snide comments, and threats of doxxing elsewhere. It invites even worse behavior from bad actors who may not even be editors here. It's a dog whistle. Editors need to make a choice between their loyalty to Wikipedia and its editors versus their social life elsewhere. Keep a wall between them. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Thanks to @Levivich:, @Vanamonde93:, and @JPxG: for your insights. You seem to understand the problem. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by CarritePuzzling that Beebs would feel the need to poke a stick into a beehive. This is not an Arb matter, if anything it is a community matter, and it's really not that. Criticism websites have existed almost as long as there has been a Wikipedia and over these 15+ years, people have a pretty good implied understanding of what is in and what is out. Mentions are one thing, links maybe another. In any event, it strikes me as dumb to overgeneralize about a message board as it is to overgeneralize about Wikipedia — projecting its worst foibles as in some way representative of the whole. This is clearly a No Action sort of request, methinks, and good for that. For those of you who demonize WPO, pop over and have a beer with us sometime, we don't bite very hard. —tim /// Carrite (talk) 23:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by MangoeWe rejected this back in 2007. Could we please stop trying to sneak it back in? Mangoe (talk) 00:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Lightburst
Statement by isaaclRegarding copyright of email: as I've discussed previously, the real issue is privacy, and not copyright. Copyright doesn't prevent paraphrasing, and is about protecting the author's rights to profit from their work. What the Wikipedia community can do to try to enforce expectations of privacy in email (either implicit or explicit) is limited. isaacl (talk) 21:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Darkfrog24The state of things is that Wikipedia is an important website, and over the decades it's become a serious website. People may want to act and speak differently here than they do in less formal settings like Discord. The dress code at the office need not apply to the sidewalk. It can also be a frustrating website, and adopting a general policy of "Do what you like but don't do it here. Oh, you're already not doing it here? Okay we're good then" is probably the healthy response. We do have some precedent for sanctioning people for off-wiki actions, such as WP:MEATPUPPET, deliberately recruiting participants to affect on-Wiki events. But they've been pretty limited and pretty strictly defined. So while possibly sanctioning someone who harasses another Wikipedian for reasons directly related to Wikipedia might be appropriate, I've been very glad of WP:OUTING's strict take over the years. Here I was saying to myself, "I can't think of any good reason someone would link to an off-Wiki thread that includes outing," and then JPxG gives us three. I still favor the strict protection of WP:OUTING, but now I know where the tradeoff is. This is a balance we strike and not a freebie that costs us nothing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Clerk notes
mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Clarification request: Contentious topics restrictions
There is a rough consensus among participating Committee members that pursuant to Wikipedia:Contentious topics § Restriction notices, protections carried out under the procedure do not require an editnotice. While topic-wide restrictions do not require editnotices (though any user may add one to a page), page-specific restrictions do: editors may ask enforcing administrators to add any missing page-specific ones. There was no appetite among responding members to remove the requirements behind editnotices. Sdrqaz (talk) 00:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by EggRoll97 at 03:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by EggRoll97Multiple pages protected under contentious topics procedures this year alone (see WP:AEL#Armenia-Azerbaijan_(CT/A-A) for just a sample) have been protected under arbitration enforcement but have no editnotice or other restriction notice applied to the page. This is despite a line recurring in contentious topics procedures pages being, in part, Because of this, I ask for clarification as to whether these editnotices can be added to pages by any editor if the enforcing administrator has not done so, or whether they may only be added by the administrator who has applied the page restriction.
Statement by SelfstudierThe edit notice can be added by editors with the page mover permission. Idk whether the idea of CT was to do away with this requirement but I don't think it did so in my usual area (AI/IP), the Arbpia edit notice (and talk page notice which can be added by any editor) is needed in general.Selfstudier (talk) 08:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by FirefangledfeathersEditnotices can be created by administrators, page movers, and template editors. If an editnotice exists, most editors can edit it, and I'd support non-admins rectifying clerical errors wherever possible. Speaking of which, if someone wants to collect some pages that need editnotices, I'm happy to cross a bunch of them off the list. Arbs, I'd suggest that common practice has moved away from such editnotices being necessary. Between admins forgetting, banner blindness, and mobile editors not seeing them at all, I don't think the notices are meaningful in generating awareness of the restriction. Enforcement of restrictions these days tends to be dependent on both formal CTOP awareness and a request to self-revert being ignored or declined, meaning a few other checks are in place to avoid unwarranted sanctions. Would the committee consider changing this requirement to a recommendation? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Contentious topics restrictions: Clerk notes
Contentious topics restrictions: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland
Initiated by My very best wishes at 23:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- World War II and the history of Jews in Poland arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- 5.1) My very best wishes is topic banned from the areas of World War II in Poland and the History of Jews in Poland, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- 5.2) Based on their disruptive attempts to defend Piotrus and Volunteer Marek, My very best wishes is subject to a 1-way interaction ban with Piotrus and a 1-way interaction ban with Volunteer Marek, subject to the usual exceptions. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Information about amendment request
- Requesting the removal of the bans described in 5.1 and 5.2
Statement by My very best wishes
My editing restrictions were based on the findings of fact about my comments during the arbitration. This FoF tells about two issues.
- The first issue was my "desire to defend the actions of Piotrus and Volunteer Marek" (FoF). I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas. Yes, I felt they deserved some support, in part as victims of harassment by the banned user. However, the behavior by VM was clearly problematic, and I do not want to condone anything he did. It was never my intention to enable bad behavior in the project, and I am sorry for exercising a poor judgement in this case. Moreover, these guys are more than capable of defending themselves. Therefore, if the one-sided interaction ban is lifted, I would still refrain from commenting about VM and Piotrus anywhere, just in case, although a legitimate collaboration with them could be beneficial, given the overlap of our editing interests.
- The second issue was my participation in the arbitration case, "extensive, often strongly stated, not always backed by evidence" and "sometimes contradicted by policies and guidelines" (FoF). Yes, I made wrong comments in this case, and I sincerely apologize for making them. I thought that including me as a party to the case was an invitation to comment, even though there was no an obligation to comment. Unfortunately, no one said that my comments were so unhelpful during the case, prior to posting the Proposed Decision (actually, I striked through one of these comments: [3]). This had happen in part because I simply had nothing new to say on this case, being only marginally involved in the editing of pages on Jewish history. That's why I did not submit any Evidence. Who cares what I think about the research article outside of my area of expertise, Wikipedia policies (arbitrators know them better) and participants whose editing I mostly knew in other subject areas? But it was not my intention to offend anyone or make your work more difficult. I am sorry if it looked that way. I just commented, exactly as I would with my colleagues or friends, and we frequently disagree on issues. Well, that was wrong. A contentious arbitration is not a proper place for such discussions. I fully understand this now. I do admit having a negative perception of the article by G&K. Not any more. I now believe their publication was a "red flag" indicating that an effort must be made to fix the issues and improve our reputation in the expert community. I would never make such comments again.
- Contributing to the project was difficult for me with such editing restrictions because a lot of subjects I liked editing may be related to Poland during the war, broadly construed. In June 2023, I started editing page Slava Ukraini that existed in such version and did not mention Poland anywhere, hence I thought it was safe to edit. However, Marcelus inserted a WWII Poland-related content, and I made a topic ban violation by modifying his newly included content. Unfortunately, I realized this only much later, being busy in real life and forgetting about all unpleasant things here. As a result, the topic ban was expanded as "World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe" to make sure that the original topic ban by Arbcom would be respected [4]. I apologize for this blunder. As of note, we had only a minor content disagreement with Marcelus who said this on AE.
- Once again, I apologize for making such comments during the arbitration and for the topic ban violation a year ago. But I did not have any problems with content editing or dispute resolution in contentious subject areas in recent years, including the area covered by the current topic ban (before the ban was issued). Hence, I am confident I can edit such subjects and interact productively with all users. My very best wishes (talk) 23:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Responses
-
- @Barkeep49. Thank you very much! Unlike the topic ban, the interaction ban does not prevent me from doing anything I want in the project. I would rather avoid these users anyway. For me, removing the interaction ban is only a matter of feeling myself as an editor in good standing. This is very important for me, but I can function without it. My very best wishes (talk) 18:44, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Link by @HouseBlaster. Yes, I agree. This is an unusual case when my positive relationships with two other contributors were deemed as disruptive. I agree they were arguably disruptive as something that had led to my unhelpful comments during the arbitration. But I do not see a reason to continue keeping this interaction ban right now. And to be honest, my positive relationships with these users are strongly overstated. Admittedly, I do not like Piotrus, and for a good reason. It is another matter that I can easily collaborate with him, especially given his immense experience. VM? I like his erudition, but he is not my "buddy". Sure thing, I am not going to support them anywhere. Why would I do it? To be a glutton for punishment? My very best wishes (talk) 21:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Aquillion. A simple warning to me during the case would be sufficient. I was very much willing to listen what arbitrators have to say: [5] (Speaking on my comment in this diff, it appears in diff #5 of the FOF as a proof of my wrongdoing, but it was merely my honest answer to a ping by another user who asked me a legitimate question, and I happily striked through my comment after a clarification). I thought mere fact that some of them talked with me during the case was an indication that I am not doing anything seriously wrong. And it was a civil discussion, even though I admittedly assumed bad faith by the off-wiki party and good faith by VM. My very best wishes (talk) 22:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Pppery. Yes, indeed. Importantly, this wider topic ban on AE was imposed only to prevent any future violation of the original topic by Arbcom, nothing else [6],[7]. Therefore, if the original topic ban is lifted, there should be no reason for keeping this wider topic ban. My very best wishes (talk) 18:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- @HouseBlaster. Actually, after having this experience, I would rather not support anyone in any administrative discussions, just to be safe. My very best wishes (talk) 05:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comments that do not support anyone specific, such as [8], I believe would be OK. My very best wishes (talk) 15:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aoidh. Yes, the iban is not hugely restrictive. I can even edit same pages as Piotrus and VM, just should not interact with them per WP:IBAN. Although I never had problems interacting with them on any article talk pages, and we rarely reverted each other's edits. The issue is my comments during administrative discussions that could be regarded as supporting these users. I fully understand this now and would never do it again, even if the iban was lifted. My very best wishes (talk) 16:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you think that anything in my statements was incorrect, please tell, and I can provide additional explanations. If the motion will not pass, and I will come with same request next year, what should I do differently? My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not only I never met Piotrus and VM in "real life", but I did not interact with them off-wiki or through email during last 10+ years. I am not saying anything about EEML case, per this advice by Barkeep49. My very best wishes (talk) 03:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Sdrqaz. Thank you! Yes, I do not really see why this iBan would be needed. I do have an editing overlap with VM in Wikipedia:RUSUKR and some other areas. These subjects are debated at article talk pages, and VM participate there. As a practical matter, why can't I say on an article talk page that I disagree (or agree) with such and such argument by VM because [an explanation]? What harm that would be? My very best wishes (talk) 18:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Statement by Piotrus
Statement by Aquillion
The topic ban always struck me as one that shouldn't have happened. There simply wasn't anything in evidence that MVBW had problems in the topic area; and topic-bans are meant to be preventative, not punitive. I can understand why it happened (ArbCom needs to maintain decorum during cases and has a limited toolbox to enforce that) but if they felt something was necessary, just the interaction ban, ejecting MVBW from that specific case during the case, or at most restrictions on participation in future ArbCom cases where MVBW isn't a party would have made more sense, since those were the actual issues it was supposed to resolve. Beyond this specific instance, I feel that ArbCom might want to consider how they'll enforce decorum in cases in the future and what sort of sanctions someone can / ought to get for issues that are solely confined to the case pages itself like this - partially it feels like the topic ban happened because there wasn't a clear precedent of what to do, so they just tossed MVBW into the bin of the same sanctions they were leveling at everyone else even if it didn't make sense. Possibly more willingness to eject unhelpful third parties from specific cases while the case is in progress could be helpful. --Aquillion (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Pppery
Note that My very best wishes is also subject to an overlapping AE topic ban (WP:AELOG/2023#Eastern Europe: My very best wishes is topic-banned from the areas of World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, and is warned that further disruption may lead to a topic ban from the whole Eastern Europe topic area, without further warning. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she
) * Pppery * it has begun... 15:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Tamzin
Acknowledging courtesy ping. To nitpick procedurally, the TBAN I enacted was an AE-consensus sanction, not an individual one. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive319 § My very best wishes. Courtesy pings to @ScottishFinnishRadish, Courcelles, Valereee, Seraphimblade, and Guerillero, who participated in the admin discussion there. I personally have no opinion on whether to lift the sanction. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 22:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by HouseBlaster
I remain of the opinion that MVBW should not be under an iban. Would someone kindly be able to explain to me what preventative purpose it is serving? Any "don't do this again" message (both to MVBW and people in the future who might consider disruptively defending someone at ArbCom) has surely been received at this point, so I don't see it remaining serving as a further deterrent. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 23:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The Four Deuces
My very best wishes' has minimized his history with Piotrus and Volunter Marek.
My very best wishes (then known as User:Biophys) cooperated off wiki with Piotrus and Volunteer Marek (then known as User:radeksz) in order to influence articles' contents and to get opposing editors sanctioned. Details are available at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. The case resulted in Eastern Europe's listing as a contentious topic for Arbitration enforcement.
TFD (talk) 17:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Elinruby, I did not say that MVBW's involvement in the Eastern European Mailing List (EEML) should affect the current application. I said that MVBW "has minimized his history with Piotrus and Volunter Marek." He wrote above, "I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas." No one asked him to bring up his previous relationship, but if he does, it should be the whole truth. TFD (talk) 20:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Elinruby, there is no reason I should disclose my interactions with you since it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
MYBW wrote, "I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas." Do you think that is a fair and accurate reflection of their previous interactions?
My advice to you and to myself is to let the administrators decide what signficance if any it has.
TFD (talk) 23:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Elinruby
I want to say that MVBW is an invaluable contributor, particularly when it comes to Russia and Russians. I deeply regretted losing contact with him because of the topic ban, given that I was still trying to straighten out the pages about collaboration with Nazi Germany and was talking to Polish editors about that.
I was a party to the Holocaust in Poland Arbcom case. as best I can tell for much the same reasons as MVBW; we were editing in the topic area of the war in Ukraine at the same time as VM and Gitz6666. I protested the topic ban at the time. MVBW is interested in the war in Ukraine, and not Poland. However the history of the region is such that part of Ukraine was once part of Poland (to vastly oversimplify) and I completely understand both that it would be difficult to respect a topic ban and that it would be necessary to break ties with me because of it.
If it is relevant to anyone's thinking I strongly support removing this topic ban. I do not think the interaction ban is necessary either; he seems pretty serious about addressing the Committee's concerns. Elinruby (talk) 18:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @The Four Deuces: is bringing up the truly ancient past. As someone who is on friendly terms with all three editors and frequently was in discussions about the Ukraine war where MVBW and VM were reasoning witH editors who thought the Russians could do no wrong, I can assure you that Piotrus was in entirely different topic areas at the time, and told me he lost contact with MVBW after the email list case. It is true that MVBW often agreed with VM on Ukraine, but then so did I. VM did his homework on Ukraine and every time I checked him, he was completely correct. I will also add that when I went back to the war on Ukraine article after the HiP case I found more than one source misrepresentation in the limited area of casualty numbers that I was trying to update, and vast resistance to edits to the "stable version". So I regret to say that in my informed opinion the sanctions were not only unnecessary but harmed the encyclopedia. Elinruby (talk) 18:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @The Four Deuces: this is someone else's appeal so I am going to give that rather specious argument the silence it deserves. I'll just note you are not disclosing your interactions with me either, for that matter. I am not saying you should have; sometimes ancient is just ancient, is all, and that is true in both cases. Elinruby (talk) 22:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
World War II and the history of Jews in Poland: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- Created from [9] on request. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:40, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Recuse (I expressed my opinion on the iban on the PD talk page). HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 18:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
World War II and the history of Jews in Poland: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Recuse I was involved with one of the articles in this case. Z1720 (talk) 03:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- I had mixed feelings about the topic ban which is why I didn't end up voting for it. I am open to repealing the topic ban, but not the interaction ban as a first step. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Pppery for that. I'll note that it seems to have been placed as an individual administrator action by Tamzin and as it is a year old (as of today) I'd support repealing that as part of the motion given the broad overlap, but will wait for further feedback before doing so, though admittedly the justification for the topic ban being necessary a year ago is strengthened by that action). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am not immediately opposed to this request; there was cause at the time to implement these remedies but it was by no means a central part of the original case. Primefac (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Noting proposal of AE topic ban repeal below. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Motion: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland
Remedy 5.1 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic ban on My very best wishes) is repealed. Remedy 5.2 (the 1-way interaction ban) remains in effect.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 2 arbitrators abstaining, 4 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- As explained above I thought our factual basis for the topic ban was weaker than for the i-ban. I ultimately didn't vote for or against it because I decided a firmer outcome to the case was better than a milder one but this particular case I wasn't sure it was ever necessary. I think a year on and given the assurances here by MVBW that we can revoke it, also knowing that should it ever be a problem again that an individual admin or AE could swiftly reimpose it. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- This seems to be a reasonable request especially when it can be reimposed as necessary if it becomes an issue. Also support repealing the AE sanction, though if there is objection from editors on that point I'd be open to reconsidering that point. - Aoidh (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am not sure the iban needs to stay in place, but otherwise I am not finding great issue with this motion. Primefac (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am making this my second choice to a motion (below) to repeal both bans. Primefac (talk) 18:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Second choice. I'm not convinced that the interaction ban is necessary either, but this is better than nothing. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
- ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Given the history and leadup to the case, I am very very wary of repealing the majority of remedies from it; in particular given how past granted appeals/repeals of remedies contributed to escalations and further conflict. However, this was a very harsh sanction and MV's appeal is not bad. I still cannot support the appeal but I will not oppose. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 23:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Arbitrator discussion
- I think this is something I'd support, but I'd like to give editors more time to comment before doing so. - Aoidh (talk) 20:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- I had time to look over the history of the case through the lens of this amendment request, and this request has been open a week which I think is a sufficient amount of time. - Aoidh (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- If anything I would rather it be the other way around; the recent AE topic ban would appear to overlap with this one, but the interaction ban does not appear to be a problem any more. Primefac (talk) 18:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- The AE topic ban was a year ago and happened only a couple weeks after the case closed so I don't think it outrageous to be appealed (and rescinded) now else we should have made the minimum time to wait longer. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I appear to have misread the timestamps. Primefac (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- The AE topic ban was a year ago and happened only a couple weeks after the case closed so I don't think it outrageous to be appealed (and rescinded) now else we should have made the minimum time to wait longer. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Noting addition of links and changing commas to parentheses for easier parsing. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Motion 2: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland
Remedies 5.1 and 5.2 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic and interaction bans on My very best wishes, respectively) are repealed.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- First choice. Primefac (talk) 18:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- First choice. I am not convinced that the interaction ban serves any preventative effect; I think that based on this appeal and the unusual nature of the interaction ban (effectively for serving as a "fan club"), its usefulness has worn out and My very best wishes understands what went wrong. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per my comments above. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- This would be a mistake. The Iban can be looked at in the future but I am skeptical of appealing it at this time. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 23:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given the history that led to its implementation, nothing in the request is compelling enough to warrant removal of the interaction ban, which does not appear to be unduly restrictive. - Aoidh (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Noting addition of links and changing commas to parentheses for easier parsing. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Motion 3: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland
My very best wishes' topic ban from World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, imposed under the Eastern Europe contentious topic procedures, is repealed.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- Given that a repeal of the narrower Polish topic ban is on the cards, it seems pointless to me to repeal that and have a broader topic ban (which covers the Polish topic ban) in place, sending My very best wishes back to square one. I am generally in favour of the Committee not interfering in Community affairs, but given that the topic ban was carried out as arbitration enforcement, it is well within our remit to repeal as well. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Please note that this is meant to be in addition to the two prior motions. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Clarification request: Noleander
There is a rough consensus among participating arbs that there is no COI exemption to the principle asked about and that the principle remains true with current policies and guidelines. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC) | ||||||||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||||||
Initiated by Clovermoss at 16:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by ClovermossThis case was recently linked in a disagreement over at Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Distinguishing characteristic of this church. Horse Eye's Back asked if an editor was a member of the church here and Hydrangeans linked to the above case here. Responses were [20][21]. I'm not trying to open a case request about LDS editing but simply clarify if there is a COI exemption under principle 9. I think COI concerns qualify as a legitimate purpose. But I also don't think that a person editing an article about their perceived religious beliefs is inherently a COI that needs to be disclosed per WP:EXTERNALREL. I think there needs to be a higher bar than "you're editing this article. Are you x?" [22] Therefore I think there's some vagueness here that should be clarified.
This issue has broader implications in the community. I link to a discussion about that in my "are you x?" statement above. There, an editor said
Statement by ජපසI think that (a) religious faith is not disconfirming for editing material relevant to that faith tradition but (b) it is not not disconfirming either. For me, in an ideal world, Wikipedia would stick to these general principles:
I know that my position is likely the minority one, but I still maintain that this is a better system than the current Don't Ask, Don't Tell-like approaches others seem to favor. jps (talk) 17:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by HydrangeansOn whether religious background constitutes a COI requiring disclosure and therefore should be exempt from the expectation in principle 9 of Noleander, I'd point out a recent ANI thread (permalink; for transparency it was a thread I commented in) in which users described as disruptive behavior an editor acting on a belief that being Muslim constituted a conflict of interest with Islam (primarily in the context of how that editor assessed the independence of academically published authors, though OP also brought up that the editor implied Muslim users should be disregarded in discussions about Muslim topics) (the editor was ultimately topic banned from pages about Islam; other reasons expressed included POV editing, and Noleander was also cited). This suggests that considering religious affiliation a COI requiring disclosure, as Horse Eye's Back claims ( I'm inclined to Ghosts of Europa's point that treating religious background (or racial or ethnic background for that matter, the other examples in Noleander) as a COI, expecting it to be disclosed, and considering questions about such unproblematic has an unproductive chilling effect. Whatever the intent behind such questioning, its outcome can result in circumventing the process of achieving consensus in discussions by focusing on participants' perceived backgrounds instead of focusing on content. While Noleander recognizes the possibility that posing a reference or question could in
Statement by FyzixFighterThe question in general appears to me to be whether or not COI provides cover for asking for another editor's religious affiliation, contrary to principle 9 here. Such a question assumes that there is necessarily a contradiction between the two, and I would argue there is none. First, multiple discussions on WP:COIN and the policy talk page of WP:COI have agreed that membership in a religion does not rise to the level of a required disclosure of COI. See for example Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#Updated proposed text for a shorter and clearer COI guideline, Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 34#Religious COI, Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 31#Clearer on religious background, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 190#Question about whether being a former member of a religion counts as a COI. I can find no instances where the community has said that being a member of a religion, current or former, is a reportable COI. Second, even if religious affiliation did require disclosure (and again there is no evidence the community considers this to be the case), the process for dealing with an undisclosed COI does not involve demanding or referencing the suspected religious background. Rather, per WP:COI#How to handle conflicts of interest, the correct process is to ask the user on their talk page if they have an undisclosed COI relative to the article subject. If that fails to resolve the issue, the next step is to take it to WP:COIN. Just as there is no necessary contradiction between WP:OUTING and WP:COI, there is no contradiction here. With regards to this instance in particular, it has been noted in multiple places, including a ANI discussion earlier this year, that Horse Eye's Back's "interpretation of COI is way too expansive" than that defined in WP:COI. While Horse Eye's Back references COI, his description of the situation appears to be rather a concern of bias and advocacy. Most advocacy does not involve COI (such as, as noted previously, religious background), and is better addressed via WP:NPOVN instead of a discussion-chilling ultimatum that another editor self-OUT in the name of COI. Even if this did fall under COI, the proper process would have been to use Awilley's user talk page, ask if they had an undisclosed COI relative to the page (a simple yes/no question that does not require someone to self-OUT), and then go to COIN if there is additional question or concern. Horse Eye's Back is aware of this process and it has been pointed out to them multiple times previously. And yet, they continue to choose not to follow it. --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by AwilleyI haven't had time to read the Noleander case or even the follow-up conversation on the LDS talk page. I saw that there was a content dispute there the other day over the 1st sentence, so I chipped in with my 2 cents. What seems to have triggered this was my lighthearted reaction to the hypothetical Q&A about how we should be introducing readers to unfamiliar topics in the first sentence. So the Q's are what questions the reader might have, and the A's are how we might be trying to answer those questions in the first sentence. Horse's Eye Back had proposed the following Q&A:
I responded with:
This is true. If you break down the sects that claim Joseph Smith as founder, you get the following:
The Community of Christ (#2) does not fit into what we usually call "Mormonism". They never adopted the early "Mormon" tradition of polygamy, and because of the Utah polygamy, they did everything they could to distance themselves from that branch, including rejecting the name "Mormon". There are also doctrinal differences. (They're trinitarian, Mormonism is nontrinitarian. Mormons accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, CoC not so much.) That leaves us with Group #1 and Group #3. Group #3 as a whole is universally referred to as "Mormon Fundamentalism". Many of these groups continue to practice polygamy. If styleguides mention these groups, they're usually telling us not to refer to these small branches as "the Mormon Church". The TLDR is: the words "Mormon Church" unambiguously refer to the LDS Church, even though the LDS Church rejects that title. That's what you'll find in pretty much any source that uses the term (which many don't). And that was the point I was trying to make with my lighthearted comment above. You don't need to differentiate the 99.75% from the 0.25% in the first sentence. I don't really understand why HEB immediately assumed that was "bigotry" or why they're still making such a big deal out of this comment. I was just going to ignore it and move on, but now that we're here, I hope my statement helps clarify the matter. ~Awilley (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Horse Eye's Back
Statement by Ghosts of EuropaIf we allow a COI exemption but define COI too broadly, I worry we'll create a chilling effect. It's one thing if you're employed as a priest. It's another if, like 1/8th of the world, you're a baptized Catholic who sometimes goes to church. Horse Eye's Back has said that even "belonging to a competitor" can be a COI.[31] Does this mean Muslims need to declare themselves when editing the page Catholic Church? Do secular humanists? There are countless reasons people may not be comfortable publicly disclosing their religious beliefs. This could scare away a lot of editors who might otherwise do great work. Ghosts of Europa (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Tryptofish (Noleander)I'm old enough in Wiki-years that I actually participated in giving evidence in the Noleander case. Here, it's been noted that a Principle from that case came up in talk during the present dispute. That Principle concerns the importance of not making "unnecessary references" to religious or other personal characteristics of other editors, distinguished from references that "clearly serve a legitimate purpose". It was arrived at in the context of an ArbCom case about alleged antisemitic content creation. I haven't followed the details of the present dispute, but I don't think the ArbCom case for which clarification is sought ever really dealt with COI issues (and thus, whether COI concerns do, or do not, "serve a legitimate purpose"). I think ArbCom can legitimately comment here that slurs or personal attacks against other editors (I'm not saying that such things occurred here) are impermissible, based on the WP:NPA policy and with or without ArbCom precedent. I'm inclined to think, however, that drawing the line between acceptable inquiries about COI, and unacceptable inquiries, is a community matter, rather than an ArbCom one. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Red-tailed hawkMy understanding is that editors are not required to disclose their religious affiliation when editing Wikipedia, and I think that Horse Eye's Back is plainly incorrect in this edit. As WP:EXTERNALREL notes,
Statement by ElinrubyHi. I have not been involved in this thread to date and am only vaguely aware of its history. I will be delighted to help the committee in any way, but until I have a better idea whether I am here over my remarks about Kaalakaa, the proper way of referring to the prophet Muhammed, or the genocide in residential schools, I think I will wait until someone asks me a question. Please ping. Based on a very fast skim, on the whole I tend to agree with jps, if that helps anyone somehow. Also, committee members, please note that my email address currently does not work, so if someone answered me about my previously-submitted private evidence, I have not yet seen that. Nobody's fault but mine of course, so I guess I will go swap in a new email address pending any questions. Btw, Haeb seems to be trying to excuse himself based on his comments to HEB; since he has been hounding me about some of the above, if we are talking about those things here, then I think the If the committee has not yet taken note of the private evidence, it went through the main Arbitration Committee link a couple-three days ago btw. Elinruby (talk) 06:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
References Statement by My very best wishesSomeone having merely a personal religious belief is a bias, not WP:COI. However, someone going to certain Church and paying their dues may fall under WP:COI per "Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI.". Being a member of a religious organization is not different from being a member of any other private or public organization, and as such can trigger WP:COI. Therefore, asking if someone has an external relationship that could trigger a WP:COI is a legitimate question, not a discrimination. Still, it would be inappropriate to ask such a question just out of blue. That would be appropriate only if the behavior by a user indicates the presence of a significant COI that may negatively affect their editing. My very best wishes (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jclemens (Noleander)My very best wishes, this is entirely and totally backwards:
Statement by ZanaharyIt seems the arguments in defense of the right to ask questions about an editor’s demography or associations in content disputes assume that it is useful to try and figure out why an editor, besides their stated rationale, might believe what they are saying. In other words, that it can be useful to figure out where an editor’s bias comes from. This approach favors arguing with people rather than arguing for outcomes, and I don’t think it serves the encyclopedia well. It shouldn’t matter in a content dispute whether an editor’s apparent position can be explained by bias predictably related to their religious affiliation, their race, their country of origin, or their political alignment. Content disputes are about content, not the figures at play in its editing, and arguments about forces potentially influencing an editor’s perceptions, which in turn influence their position in the dispute, are personal arguments. Personal arguments should be avoided altogether, and there should certainly be no sacrifices made to protect their continued existence (consider the short bridge to personal attacks, and the necessarily discriminatory basis for making judgments of editors that take into account their religion, race, sex, nationality, and so on). As for whether belonging to a church qualifies as a COI, I say certainly not, and there’s no reason why an interpretation of the COI policy that includes religious alignment wouldn’t also include an editor’s race, personal beliefs, place of origin, sexual orientation, et cetera. Basically: questions about association and demography belong to disputes between editors, not disputes about content, and I urge the Committee not to protect the right to pursue personal disputes (which don’t serve the project) at the expense of the right to have one’s edits be interpreted free of personal and demographic baggage. And belonging to a church is not a COI. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by NewyorkbradAs an arbitrator I drafted most of the decision in the Noleander case, which it's hard for me to believe was 13 years ago. I think the principles I drafted stand up well to rereading at this late date; but as I just pointed out in another section of this page, there is a limit to how much any discussion of current policy should be steered by a general principle contained in a wiki-ancient arbitration decision which, like any ArbCom decision, was written in the context of a particular set of facts. That being said, those who flatter me by seeking guidance from principles contained in old ArbCom decisions that I drafted in my past wiki-life might also enjoy Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/International Churches of Christ#Conflict of interest, although the relevant policies have evolved somewhat since that time (as has the threshold of disruption necessary to trigger an ArbCom case to begin with, but I digress). An editor's membership in a given religious group or adherence to particular religious beliefs, nor the lack of such membership or beliefs, does not give rise to a "conflict of interest" that must be disclosed or should generally be inquired about. In this context, non-neutral, biased, or otherwise disruptive editing can almost always be addressed on its own merits without asking intrusive questions about editors' personal attributes or beliefs. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Noleander: Clerk notes
Noleander: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Amendment request: Durova
Initiated by Joe Roe at 16:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Joe Roe (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- I'm requesting that the committee rescind this principle, which reads:
In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.
- I'm requesting that the committee rescind this principle, which reads:
- I'm requesting that the committee rescind this principle, which reads:
Any uninvolved administrator may remove private correspondence that has been posted without the consent of any of the creators. Such material should instead be sent directly to the Committee.
- I'm requesting that the committee rescind this principle, which reads:
Statement by Joe Roe (Durova)
Following up on #Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads, I would like to request that committee formally rescind these two principles. The ArbCom of 2007 were playing armchair lawyer here. It isn't up to us to decide whether or not emails are subject to copyright (apparently the real lawyers are still arguing about it). But it's also not relevant, because the conclusion drawn in these two principles—that if something is copyrighted it can never be posted on-wiki—is nonsense. We post copyrighted text without permission all the time in the form of quotations, and quoting off-wiki correspondence when it is relevant to on-wiki discussions is no different. The right to quote is protected in all copyright regimes.
I don't expect that rescinding these principles will have any immediate effect, because policy currently forbids the posting of off-wiki correspondence because it's considered personal information, not for copyright reasons. However, the 2007 decision is still sporadically referenced in policies and guidelines, most notably in WP:EMAILPOST. Formally removing it would help clarify the consensus status of these policies and generally make it easier to discuss the issue of off-wiki communication without old, faulty reasoning getting in the way. – Joe (talk) 16:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Primefac and Barkeep49: I wouldn't say it's ArbCom's responsibility to determine whether posting emails is okay or not as a general rule. Apart from the bit about the Durova case, the full text of WP:EMAILPOST is "There is no community consensus regarding the posting of private off-wiki correspondence" and as far as I know that's the only policy that specifically addresses it. – Joe (talk) 04:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: I think we're saying the same thing. I don't think WP:EMAILPOST, or the Durova case, have any bearing on whether off-wiki correspondence is considered personal information. That comes from the community's interpretation of WP:OUTING, as expressed in a couple of RfCs that I think are linked above somewhere. As far as I'm aware ArbCom had no role in developing that interpretation, which is what I intended to draw attention to in my reply above. I'm sorry if I've given reason to be suspicious of my motives. – Joe (talk) 19:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jclemens (Durova)
This is overdue. Those principles, explicitly citing WP:EMAILABUSE, were used to suppress quotes of positive correspondence I'd received via email (using the 'email this user' feature) and posted to my own user talk page--after my most memorable screw-up and consequently at the end of my tenure on Arbcom. What's left is at User talk:Jclemens/Archive 12#Mailbag if anyone wants to read about it, and this is what was stricken. Given what all else was happening at that time, I never brought it up for further review. Now that a dozen years have passed, can we agree that the principle was wrong from the get-go and never appropriate? Jclemens (talk) 18:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Primefac, the notion that emails have any privacy from redistribution only has any credibility based on the boilerplate footers whose ubiquity you note. In fact, spoken conversations, which we can all agree are more ephemeral, may be recorded in the United States with one party consent (many states require two-party consent, but federal law is less restrictive). For copyright purposes, however, the person recording a phone call created the sound recording, while the author who composed an email clearly holds the copyright to its text. Sending an email implicitly grants a license to all the mail servers and network equipment involved in handling the message to copy it and forward it appropriately to its recipient. Attempting to revoke access to an email after receipt by way of footers, when no explicit agreement to receive the (copyrighted) email was ever entered into, is sufficiently unlike other copyright licensing that the legal framework remains unsettled some sixty years after the invention of email. TLDR: there is no legal expectation of privacy in email, so we should not pretend as if there is. Jclemens (talk) 19:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed, that failed to capture the key point well; allow me to try again: No one who understands it thinks email is private. Since the very beginning, email has been forwardable, printable, or copyable. Since the 1980's, colleagues of mine have kept particularly damning (to others; exculpating to themselves) emails in a "Barbara Walters file". Thus, it is perplexing to suggest any deference to a sender's wishes, even if those wishes were expressed. If you don't want it on a billboard, don't write it on the Internet. Thus, zero deference to email as email is necessary; everything in WP:OUTING exists just fine without any reference to email as a specific medium. Jclemens (talk) 00:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Newyorkbrad
Reposting or quoting from e-mails intended to be private, without the consent of the author, is at best discourteous and should generally be avoided. One can imagine unusual circumstances that could warrant making an exception; but the mere fact that it's readily possible to forward or copy e-mails does not mean that we should disregard everyone's privacy or disclose their confidential information on a wholesale basis. Significantly, this is a separate issue from copyright.
As for the copyright issue: Under the copyright statute that has been in effect in the United States since 1978 (I can't speak about other countries), copyright generally exists automatically whenever anyone writes something original, whether on paper or electronically; this certainly includes e-mails. (The statutory language: Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
) When someone quotes from an e-mail without permission, they are implicitly making a fair use claim, just as if they were quoting from a written letter or a blog or a magazine or a book. I do not recommend that the ArbCom attempt to define the confines of fair use, in this situation or any other. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: If I were writing this principle from scratch, I would focus the wording on the privacy and courtesy issues as well as on copyright, but as a practical matter, I think that if someone believes our policy in this area should be changed, they should raise the proposed change for discussion directly on the relevant policy page, rather than ask the ArbCom to repeal or modify a principle developed in an arbitration case from 17 years ago. (Of course, a courtesy notification of such a discussion to the Committee and those who follow its work would be entirely appropriate.) So the short answer to your question is that I don't think the Committee need either reaffirm or repudiate the principle. As another observation, Wikipedia copyright policy is often more restrictive than what copyright law might require, so saying "let's generally not quote from e-mails on-wiki without permission, partly because of the potential for copyright concerns" is not the same thing as "quoting from e-mails always constitutes a copyright infringement." Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: The context for the principle, both in the original Durova case and in the request for clarification, was direct on-wiki quotation, so that's what I addressed; but you are right that the underlying issue could be framed more broadly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: If the questions you're raising are actually being disputed in practice rather merely in theory, then perhaps the relevant policy page might warrant discussion or clarification. However, I still don't think any such clarification is best raised in the context of asking the Arbitration Committee, which does not generally set policy, to parse or refine a principle written by a completely different group of arbitrators in a 17-year-old case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: Please note that I was not yet an arbitrator at the time of this case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Although I am still unsure of the value of rewriting principles from old decisions, simply deleting the reference to copyrights as is being proposed should not create any risk. As I read the motion, the Committee is not saying that quoting an e-mail on-wiki always violates the author's copyright or never violates the copyright—both of which would be overbroad and therefore untrue statements—but is simply not addressing the issue, since there is no need for it to do so. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Alanscottwalker
There appear to be some unexamined assumptions in what New York Brad writes. The first is where does his idea come from that this is limited to "quotes", when the holding speaks of "content", one can share content without quotes (indeed most Wikipedians do that everyday in our articles). And no its not always CVIO, words still belong to everyone, so a quoted a word or short phrase is not going to be CVIO. Also, his idea of "courtesy" has to be culturally specific and more importantly circumstantial, as there are all kinds of e-mails, and probably only those that explicitly say, 'this is private', and the author has a reasonable expectation. There are a bunch of situations where the receiver would think the sender has no such reasonable expectation (even if they say its private, depending on the situation and the content). Also "private information", what do you mean, do you mean name address, ph, etc or is it being used ambiguously to mean everything. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- So, Brad, are you saying it is limited to quotes or not?
- And generally writing summary is not a CVIO, nor is a word, or limited quotation, right?
- And don't you think your being culturally and circumstantially overbroad with your claimed "courtesy"?
- Finally, are you not being ambiguous when you broadly refer to "private information"?
- All these issues more than suggest the principle needs clarification. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why won't you answer the questions about your assertions Brad? Being disputed in practice, that is what we are doing now. It seems plain that the committee is still responsible for its words, and if it wrote poorly, overbroadly, and ambiguously, and based on culturally and circumstantially limited unstated assumptions, which appears to be that case from what you have said, it should clarify -- then, perhaps you and othres can actually answer questions about it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Brad, I did not say, you were on the committee. You are the one here supporting the principle but why won't you answer questions about your support, is it because the principle is ambiguous? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Clovermoss
I think the premise of prohibiting this on the basis of it being a copyright violation to be a bit odd. I think there's other reasons to be cautious about sharing information from private correspondence but copyright is not what comes to mind. I live in a place where one-party consent is a thing. While that's what legally allowed, if I went around recording every personal conversation I had with someone most people would see that as unnecessarily invasive and rude. I think there needs to be a good reason to share such information without explicit consent. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Just Step Sideways
I was rather surprised to see Durova's name in my watchlist today, seeing as she hasn't edited in a very long time, so curiousity is what brought me to this conversation. Upon reviewing this I have to agree that ArbCom erred here. The committee should not be making rulings in matters of law, and it shouldn't be giving talking points for lame wikilawyering. As Joe states this will have little to no practical effect in practice other than to take away said talking point, our local policies remain in effect in this regard.
2007 was near the end of the "Wild West" era of Wikipedia governance, we hadn't quite nailed down certain boundaries at that time as we have now. This is simply correcting an error from that period and relegating it to the past. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by JPxG
I said this in the other section above (in re the mentioning of offwiki fora), but I concur with the people here who have said that the copyright thing is ludicrous. Whatever our policy is on reproducing off-wiki correspondence, the claim that it is specifically a copyright violation is so asinine as to resemble satire -- there is no other place on the whole of the project where we interpret copyright in this derangedly expansive way. If we are to have a rule forbiding emails to be posted here, that's fine, but the basis for this should be the rule, not some made-up nonsense about copyright law. jp×g🗯️ 03:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by isaacl
For convenience, see [47] for a side-by-side view of the proposed change.
Regarding concerns about the implications of the change, they can be discussed as part of the rationale of the motion, and linked to in the principle. isaacl (talk) 16:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jehochman
My opinion mirrors that of Newyorkbrad, Clovermoss and ToBeFree. The copyright and fair use status of emails is complex. We do not need to go there because if somebody wanted to post a message on Wikipedia, the would do so. The fact that a message is sent by email implies that it should not be redistributed without permission in general, subject to reasonable exceptions in unusual circumstances.
I recommend cleaning up the wording of the decision to say that private correspondence should generally be kept private, and only posted online where there is reasonable justification for doing so. To begin, ask permission of the email author. If permission is not obtained, consider whether posting the email would be rude or harassing. Editors may be sanctioned for posting private correspondence when the effect more about harassment than improving the encyclopedia. To play it safe, forward relevant private correspondence to ArbCom and let them decide whether or not it should be posted publicly.
If an email is itself harassing, malicious, or otherwise seriously unwelcome, then any expectation of privacy goes out the window. Hopefully such circumstances will be rare. Jehochman Talk 16:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LessHeard vanU
A quick review of Wikipedia:Copyright does not appear to address anything written (or copied) outside of content space. It seems irrelevant to the issue related to conduct by contributors outside of that space and, I suggest, should be removed. As an aside, I agree that removing any indication of ArbCom determining what falls under Copyright law is a bonus. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Floq
@ToBeFree: I see Guerillero's point; the "changed from" text is not really the "changed from" text, it's the "changed to" text, using strikeouts. In this particular case, I suppose everyone knows what is meant, but for the future, you should either say "changed as follows" and then use strikeouts and underlines, or keep the from/to system but remove the strikouts. Or, even better, use Isaacl's formatting, which is probably more familiar to Wikipedians. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ugh, I dislike not being able to discuss this in a threaded conversation.....
- @ToBeFree: I know how strikeout works. Using strikeout alone, without.... just... just nevermind. Ask Guerillero on the mailing list or something. Or don't. I'm bikeshedding, and you're misunderstanding, and interacting with other humans is exhausting sometimes. Floquenbeam (talk) 22:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Durova: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Durova: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I have mixed feelings about this request. On the one hand, I do agree that claiming "copyright violation" for a private correspondence is a bit excessive. On the other hand, posting private correspondence without consent could potentially be seen as harassment. There will obviously be exceptions (e.g. emails to Jclemens posted above), but in general we probably should not be posting emails on-wiki unless both sender and receiver(s) are okay with it. The Principles also do not necessarily specify that this pertains to emails sent between editors; many people use the "this email is only for the intended recipient" footer and — while I know that it is not necessarily a legally binding statement — those requests should generally be respected. In other words, I think the intent behind those principles is sound, even if we have to potentially strike the unsound rationale that supports it. Primefac (talk) 18:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jclemens, I suppose it is a good thing then that I said and recognised that such statements are not legally binding... Primefac (talk) 23:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- In general I am wary about rescinding principles (and findings of fact) in a way that is not true for remedies. However, I think this case for rescinding this particular principle - given the way that it remains in use at times - suggests that rescinding it would be appropriate. However, as Primefac notes, it would have to be done in a way that doesn't say "posting entire emails is OK". Barkeep49 (talk) 00:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Joe Roe I can't tell if we're saying the same thing or if you're playing a long game here which I want no part of. I am OK with ArbCom saying "We rescind EMAILPOST but as emails are considered PII, they will continue to be oversighted." I am not ok with saying "We rescind EMAILPOST" and then having someone say "well now that EMAILPOST is rescinded on what grounds do people think it's PII; even arbcom doesn't say that". I had thought we were doing the first thing, but now given your reply to me, I worry we're doing the second thing. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad I take seriously your assertion ArbCom shouldn't try to be a copyright lawyer. What I can't tell is if you think keeping or repealing this principle is playing copyright lawyer? Barkeep49 (talk) 23:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just because the United States don't have a law to forbid a behavior, it doesn't mean that the behavior is acceptable on Wikipedia. This applies to a lot of "free speech" and also to publishing e-mails that were sent with an obvious expectation of privacy. I'm fine with removing copyright-based explanations of harassment prohibitions, as this isn't about copyright to my understanding. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The copyright argument is, to my knowledge after reviewing the literature, unsettled and mostly confined to student notes in law reviews. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Motion: Durova
Principle 2 of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova, Private correspondence, is changed from2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence)
or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.
to2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence), the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki.
For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
-
- This is currently the only change I'm willing to make to principle 2. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 03:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Remove as not really accurate and obsolete at this point in the projects history. I'm open to modifying this further but I'm unsure of what that would be at this time. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 23:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The matter of posting private correspondence on Wikipedia is not limited to potential copyright issues, and it seems beneficial to strike wording that suggests that it is the only concern. - Aoidh (talk) 20:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per my general comments and NYB's clarification of support for this motion. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Z1720 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Primefac (talk) 22:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've always found the copyright argument cheesy. There is some reasonable expectation of privacy for private correspondence, but the key word is "reasonable". Maxim (talk) 14:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- The change is good, the format of this motion continues to make my eyes bleed. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
-
I think I'm still willing to do something here, but NYB has given me pause. I am unsure, per my comments above, if this makes it clear enough that there is no change to the status quo around posting emails but I do appreciate the simplicity and elegance of the proposed change. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
-
NYB's caution and guidenace here is really giving me pause, but the points in favor of not just letting this stand still resonate. So I am not quite at oppose, but I'm not ready to support so I will instead abstain. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Arbitrator discussion
- Can we not do the weird psudo diff thing with strikeouts? It makes motions harder to understand --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I understand the concern. Would removing the strikethrough formatting already solve the problem? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, the only difference between MediaWiki's diff view and the strikethrough formatting is the formatting. Both display the old text on one side, marking which part of it is gone in the new version. Using strikethrough formatting instead of colored highlighting on the green text on the yellow box is preferable to me prsonally. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I understand the concern. Would removing the strikethrough formatting already solve the problem? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I did want to note that I'm not ignoring this, I just want to take more time to read through the history of all of this (which goes pretty far back). - Aoidh (talk) 05:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Amendment request: Suspension of Beeblebrox
Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- [48]
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- "These failures followed a previous formal warning issued to Beeblebrox in September 2021 by the Arbitration Committee concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums."
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Just Step Sideways (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- "These failures followed a previous formal warning issued to Beeblebrox in September 2021 by the Arbitration Committee concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums."
- This should be struck out as a falsehood
Statement by Just Step Sideways
My apologies to the rest of the community, but there won't be much opportunity for any of you to make informed comments here as the evidence here is private.
It is part of ArbCom's public record that I was issued a "formal warning" in September 2021. This is false. I obviously can't reproduce the email discussion here, but I would ask each arbitrator to search the b-list archives for September 2021 for the thread "FAO: Beeblebrox - regarding recent comments" and tell me if they see a formal warning in there. WTT and myself had a fairly cordial discussion, in which he did make it clear he was speaking on behalf of the committee, but there absolutely is not a "formal warning".
Did the committee vote ont he b-list to issue one? I don't know as I no longer have access to the archives, but I'm pretty sure it would requirte a formal vote to issue a formal warning to a sitting arbitrator.
This was clearly put into this decision to imply there was some precedent of me being warned for discussing private communication on off-wiki criticism sites, when the not-a-warning mainly discussed the tone of my remarks on Commons and off-wiki, and also what I fully admit was an inexcusable comment I made in error on an internal mailing list, which obviously is an entirely seperate issue. The only part of it with any implication of private information two words that probably could've been left unsaid, and again, it was manifestly not a formal warning.
I'm not trying to excuse my own behavior. I did what the committee said I did, but the committee did not do what it said it did. This false information should be struck from the record. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
If it wasn't a warning, then what exactly did you think it was?
It was not worded as a warning, it's a list of concerns, most of which have no relation whatsoever with the reason I was suspended. I explained my position on itat ARBN [49] after the suspension was announced:Three things were mentioned in that incident. One was comments I made on another WMF site about a user on that site, along with a parrelell conversation at Wikipediocracy. It had literally nothing to do with the committee or any kind of confidential information, some people just didn't like it. That's it. No actual policy violation. Another was my supposed outing of the troll who is at the center of all of this. There was no outing. Anyone in possession of even half of the facts knows this. No confidentail information of any kind was involved, and again it was utterly unrelated to any arbcom business. The third thing mentioned in there was a remark I did make on one of the mailing lists that I deeply regret. I beilieve what happened was that I thought I was commenting on the ArbCom list when it was in fact the functionaries list and my comment was about a specific member of that team, and not a very positive one. I never intended to insult this user, let alone to do so in front of their peers. It was an error apparenty due to innatention and I apologized to the user and to other functionaries who expressed their dismay about it. So, that's what that is about. I therefore do not agree that the more recent incident was part of a pattern as it was none of the things I was warned about.
- Concerns were shared with me, and I responded to those concerns with my honest feedback. There was no hint of "do it again and there will be consequences" which is what a warning is normally understood to be. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
the actual text, lightly redacted, of my email response to the committee's concerns.
|
---|
I have to admit, I have trouble not being a mouthy smartass when it comes to Fae. I guess it's one of those "you can laugh or you can cry" things, it seems obvious to me that he should've been thrown out of the movement entirely a long time ago, but Commons is so broken as a community that they continue to tolerate his nonsense so long as he continues to make a big deal of the sheer number of robotic uploads he's made. So, I made an extremely sarcastic comment when Fae floated the idea that if the WMF wouldn't pay him, maybe he could get the general public to do so, using a "tip jar" which by my understanding is basically how OnlyFans works, yet somehow pointing that out is the most offensive thing anyone has ever said. That's what actually upset them, the rest is just Fae being Fae. And then when Rodhullandemu started acting as his attack dog that just turned the ridiculousness level up to 11. Two little peas in a pod, both playing the victim and the bully at the same time. And I freely admit that I was very dismissive of his super-dramatic overreaction to the whole thing, re-posting every word I posted on WO as "evidence" that I was directly encouraging people to physically attack his home, which is the apparent basis of this report to T&S. If they find that compelling, I guess I'm done here. If I had actually done that, I would totally deserve an office ban and whatever other ban came my way, but I'm quite certain I did no such thing. For me, it was distressing to see Fae's outright lies and Rodhulls creepy threats spread onto en.wp by Owen Blacker, who I don't believe had any involvement in the Commons discussion and was clearly acting as Fae's proxy without doing any critical thinking about the merit of the accusations. On the other hand, the <email posted to the wrong list> comment.... I don't know what happened there, I think in my mind I was talking to the committee, or maybe just the OS team, certainly not the full functionaries list. As you all know I often use a more informal tone on our mailing list, and somehow it slipped into another conversation where it was obviously not appropriate. It was a giant screw up and I feel like a jerk about it and have reached out to some of the other functionaries who seemed particularly distressed by it. I was recovering from covid at the time and maybe it made my brain a little ...fuzzy? That's not an excuse but maybe it's at least sort of an explanation. To the other two points: The Lourdes incident was a good faith error that she made 50 times worse by her very public reaction to it. We've since come to an understanding, as far as I know she has accepted that I honestly meant her no harm and certainly wasn't trying to maliciously out her, and she copped to the fact that the way she approached a solution was exactly the wrong way. It's worth noting that, at that time, it did not require any advanced permissions to see the edits she had made where she self-outed. They had been visible to one and all for about five years. The <redacted> thing, all I really said there was reiterating that we were not making a statement on <redacted> and everyone should just accept that sometimes, we just don't know what really happened.I don't feel like I let out anything that someone couldn't guess for themselves by saying <redacted> but I o dget the point that that could've gone unsaid. I suppose I could've said nothing at all, in all honesty that is a skill I have tried to work on, when to just shut up, but I know I miss the mark sometimes. I am also trying to make myself get less screen time on the whole, It's been really bad ever since lockdown last year, and I find that it is often when I've been online all day that I say or do something that upsets people. I'm working on it, I built a tiny little campsite in my backyard and have been thoroughly enjoying sitting out there reading a book, having a campfire, or just watching the trees wave in the wind. I do apologize if this has caused undo stress or concern to anyone, especially the <email comment>, thing, which clearly made an unpleasant situation much worse. Feel free to share this with T&S if that seems like it would be helpful, and my apologies to Joe as well, I know he has enough crap to deal with without this. |
As you can see, when these concerns were brought to me, I responded to them by flatly rejecting the validity of large portions of it as not being arbcom business. I apologized for the one glaring error I did make, that in no way involved private information, it was just a screw up. The only part of this laundry list that has any bearing on what came later was two words that were at worst ill considered but did not explicitly reveal anything of real substance. Worm and I talked some more about some of it, but the committee as a whole made no reply to my rejection of the basis of most of this list of concerns.
The committee may have intended it as a formal warning, but it did not come across as one. That's not my fault. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I feel like every time any aspect of this situation is discussed, I keep getting told that I should have known to assume things that were not explicitly stated, because I was an arb and for no other reason. I don't buy that line of argument, at all. I was a party being investigated by the committee and have the same right as anyone else to expect clear and explicit communication from the committee. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Jclemens: I don't expect an apology, I just want a false statement removed from the official record. I'm not asking for anything more than that.
- However, it is perhaps worth noting that Fae was eventually banned here and ragequit at Commons, and used a bunch of exceedingly obvious socks over at Meta, and that RH&E was desysopped and banned here, desysopped and blocked at Commons, blocked on Wikidata, and finally globally banned by the office. In light of all that I continue to struggle to see how I was the bad guy here, or why it was any of the committee's business what I said on Commons or WPO about either one of them. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 23:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Sdrqaz: the existence of that discussion was used as a justification later on the grounds that I had already been warned about leaking material from the mailing list. Do you see where it explicitly says that in the supposed warning, because I do not. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do think it would be illuminating for the community if the committee were to post a semi-redacted version of the email to me, as I have done with my reply. Maybe I'm wrong and upon seeing it others will agree with the assertion that it was a formal warning, I really don't know. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 04:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- As to the ")a" alluded to below, I think the key sentence is the one right before that. This is the crux of my argumenthere. This felt to me like a polite reminder more than a formal warning.
- I want to be clear, in case anyone is thinking I'm setting the stage to try and get the entire motion revoked or dismissed or whatever, I am not and will not be doing so. I just think there is a factual error here. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do think it would be illuminating for the community if the committee were to post a semi-redacted version of the email to me, as I have done with my reply. Maybe I'm wrong and upon seeing it others will agree with the assertion that it was a formal warning, I really don't know. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 04:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Sdrqaz: the existence of that discussion was used as a justification later on the grounds that I had already been warned about leaking material from the mailing list. Do you see where it explicitly says that in the supposed warning, because I do not. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by BilledMammal
CaptainEek, to give some outside perspective; from what you've said I would personally not interpret that as a "formal warning" - I would expect such a warning to call itself a warning, or at a least a synonym.
I probably wouldn't even interpret it as a warning, and while that might be a personal flaw, I think its useful for the committee to remember the cultural and neurological diversity of the community here and be very explicit in their communications. BilledMammal (talk) 22:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jclemens (JSS)
As a former arbitrator who participated in the deliberations with respect to both Rodhullandemu and Fae during my tenure, I would encourage the members of the current committee to review their history during 2011-12. The fact that both are involved in more drama a decade-ish later suggests that my colleagues and I did not do enough to ensure their permanent removal from all WMF projects. I believe there were adequate, although differing, grounds for such known to the committee (and Jimbo, in at least one of the cases) through private evidence at that time. Had the committee then pursued a remedy those familiar with the situation and subsequent events can endorse in retrospect, large parts of the above message would have been unnecessary.
Now, having said that, JustStepSideways, even if you've been done dirty... what outcome do you want? If an apology? Sure, I get the desire, but I question whether the benefit is worth the drama. The committee isn't the greatest at handling internal dissent, and I doubt it ever will be.
But if the fastest way to end this is to s/formal warning/expression of concern/, such a change requires the active agreement of a team of volunteers whom you've just called liars. If they do it, I'm not sure who comes out looking more magnanimous. Jclemens (talk) 23:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- There seems to be a difference between the committee and JSS over whether the communication given to JSS should have reasonably been perceived to be a formal warning. Here are the top three hits for a DuckDuckGo query for "employment law formal written warning elements". While ArbCom is not a paid position, it certainly involves more work than many such positions, and there are relatively consistent expectations, at least in the United States, for how to go about such a warning. Which elements of written employment warnings were plausibly germane to an ArbCom member? Which ones were clearly and unequivocally delivered? In light of those answers, is it reasonable to continue to call that communication a formal warning? Jclemens (talk) 03:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by 28bytes
Question for the committee: for those of us outside the loop, what is the difference between a “warning” and a “formal warning” in this context? In other Wikipedia contexts it seems like the analogous difference would be “please don’t do X again” versus “if you do X again, you may be/will be blocked”, but I presume the committee has its own procedures and definitions. 28bytes (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The Wordsmith
From what I've seen, a formal warning usually has the trappings that make it, well, formal. "For the Arbitration Committee" is definitely one of them, but they are generally either Case Remedies or Motions that take the explicit form User:Example is reminded/warned/admonished that...
. Here[50][51][52][53] are a few examples of formal warnings I grabbed from the archives; while I obviously don't have access to private motions I'd expect them to be logged privately and have similar trappings to show that they are a motion and a formal warning.
While arbs may have intended the message sent to JSS as a formal warning, the will of Arbcom writ large
isn't always the same thing. Formal warnings include those formalities not just as decoration, but to ensure that there is no ambiguity and misunderstandings like this don't happen.
And now I think I've said the word formal so many times that it's formally lost all meaning... The WordsmithTalk to me 18:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Floq
Is it really that hard to just say "we probably shouldn't have said 'formal warning', we probably should have said 'warning'"? If it's bugging JSS, and does no harm, why not just give him the small win? Even if you don't think it's necessary? Twisting yourself in knots, CaptainEek, to say, essentially, "well even though it wasn't a formal warning, how could he not know it was a formal warning" ... what benefit is served, to anyone? Also, Beeb, please request Oversight back. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WTT
Who wants an unsolicited opinion by a user that has faded into the past but was relevant at the time? It's what this saga needs isn't it? I'll take some blame here - I took the lead in 2021, and therefore the lack of clarity that came out at the end may well have been at least partially down to me and my style. So was the email a "formal warning" - well it didn't include the word "warning", nor did it include any indication of ramifications if the email was not heeded. It was not a "Warning" by arbcom standards "X is warned that..." However, it was clearly a warning - i.e. cautionary advice - and it was formal - i.e. voted upon, out of the blue for JSS & framed as from the committee. In other words, all sides are right from a point of view and digging heels in won't get anyone anywhere.
If that were all I had to say, I wouldn't have dragged my sorry rear end back here - it's patently clear to both sides and should be easy enough to sort out. The problem is hurt, on both sides. Not long ago, JSS was considered one of our best - spoke his mind, engaged with the community and worked hard in the deep meta of Wikipedia. He was attacked for that, as many admins at the coal face are, and since he helped the fall from grace of a few prominent (but oh so problematic) users, he took the brunt of their anger. I saw this, because I took a fair chunk of their anger too. Being in those roles wear at you, and is certainly a contributory factor that I'm not here every day.
I could understand if the committee felt that they could not carry on with one of their number acting in a manner at odds with the committee's psyche. I can even imagine that JSS said something somewhere that crossed a line that that meant he needed to be shown the door. But let's be clear here - the manner in which you as a committee did so has left the encyclopedia in a poorer state. The power imbalance between the individual and the committee is something that every committee member should be painfully aware of, the damage that can be done by making a statement must never outweigh the benefit of that statement. I hope that every committee member considers deeply about whether this sort of thing could have been handled by a "quiet word", firmly but away from public eyes, or even encouraging resignation (jump before push). This should be a time for reflection, a time to ask what could have been done better and how.
My opinion is that the committee can help repair this, for little to no cost from their side besides climbing back down on the issue. I've said above that you're not wrong, but it's not about being right or wrong, it's about doing the right thing WormTT(talk) 10:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Comment by Newyorkbrad
To paraphrase Louis Brandeis, the goal of the ArbCom as a whole and of each of its members (past, present, and future) should be to resolve disputes and dramas, not to introduce disputes and dramas of their own. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Suspension of Beeblebrox: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Suspension of Beeblebrox: Arbitrator views and discussion
- When I saw this notification I was thinking "Yeah JSS can request restoration of OS now, I hope addresses what I mention in January because I want to restore." Obviously this is a different request than what I was expecting. I'm going to hold off commenting until some colleagues who weren't on the committee in 2021 and 2023 can weigh in on this (both in terms of what happened in 2021 and whether the wording was fair in what was voted on last year). Barkeep49 (talk) 18:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @28bytes reasonable question. I don't know what the intent was of the arb who did the initial draft of what would become that motion. If the initial draft had been written as "warning" rather than "formal warning" I doubt formal would have been added, but in my mind the formality was that it was voted upon and the email addressing it made clear that it was on behalf of the entire committee. This is in contrast to some discussions, both with Beeblebrox and others, where it's more a "hey please knock that off" type of thing. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Just Step Sideways what did/do you think (a) in the email means? Happy for you to reply privately if you prefer so that neither of us have to speak so obliquely. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Just Step Sideways I've just got to say, and I'm saying this next part as bluntly as I can because so much of this has been your complaints that things weren't written plainly in a way you could understand: you've blown this. When this has come up behind the scenes, I have argued that were you to make a credible promise to not reveal confidential information, something as simple as
While I still don't think I did anything wrong I understand the concerns expressed by the arbitrators and will not reveal any information I learn as an oversighter. Please let me have that back.
we not only should but would basically have no choice to restore your OS and to functionaries. Because that is the difference between removal and a suspension and you'd have done your six month suspension so all should now be restored just as it would have been had you been suspended for six months and your term hadn't been up. And I think there was maybe a majority of the committee ready to vote along with me. Instead you want to rehash whether or not we warned you. Maybe the committee will vote to change it to warned from formally warned - serious question: if we did this would you feel satisfied or would you only be satisfied if we struck the warning characterization altogether? If I could just make the decision to change that wording from formal warning to warning I would reagrdless of whether or not it would make you happy, but I am also incredibly uninterested in spending even a fraction of the time I've spent here on other appeals from other people who think we got a word wrong and would be happier if we struck a word.Maybe the committee will decide to make public the 2021 letter, maybe it won't. My first and second thoughts were that we shouldn't because I have become rather skeptical of partial transparency measures in situations like this and am uninterested in defending how we chose to redact it considering that would be two steps (Warning/not a warning->2021 letter redactions) removed from what we should be doing (voting on restoring your OS and functionary status) and one step away from the actual request made here. Now I'm wavering on those thoughts because transparency is important to me and so despite all my concerns, it might still be the right thing to do.But I'm just overwhelmingly sad that this is what is important to you and what we're spending time on. Which means that in six months when you'd be eligible for another appeal (because I imagine that limitation is what will be set regardless of whether we change formal warning to warning) I'll be off the committee. Or if instead you decide to run for ArbCom again in 4 months you won't be able to benefit from the fact that you've had your access restored. I was never - absent you going off the rails in your response to us which didn't happen - going to vote to remove you because I don't think your offenses merit that (one reason why? I think you are innocent of what Fae accused you of) and because of the incredibly high regard I have held you at all times not related to WPO. And rather than take the hint that I dropped for you in January and here (and which perhaps Sdqraz also tried to drop for you for you) and rather than taking the advice that Floq offered you, you just want to be vindicated about the 2021 email. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. It just feels so small compared to what could have been. Barkeep49 (talk) 06:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Just Step Sideways I've just got to say, and I'm saying this next part as bluntly as I can because so much of this has been your complaints that things weren't written plainly in a way you could understand: you've blown this. When this has come up behind the scenes, I have argued that were you to make a credible promise to not reveal confidential information, something as simple as
- The Committee held a vote on the warning on the b-list, after extensive discussion. The resulting message was then transmitted to JSS with the lead in of "on behalf of the rest of the committee," followed by our list of concerns, and signed "For the Arbitration Committee," which any Arb should know means represents the will of ArbCom writ large. If it wasn't a warning, then what exactly did you think it was? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- JSS, did you need it spelled out for you that it was bad to do those things and you shouldn't do them again? You're a bright guy and held a position of trust. The fact that we didn't begin the message with "this is a formal warning" does not prevent it from being one. A message that is a list of concerns is inherently a statement of "don't do that again please." CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Like Barkeep, I was not expecting an amendment request on these grounds. I wasn't on the Committee in those years (2021 & 2023); the 2021 message seems clearly caution[ing] or admonish[ing] (someone) against unwise or unacceptable behaviour and therefore a warning. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Just Step Sideways: I see the 2021 warning as being on dual bases, one of which was revealing private Committee deliberations (see the "(a)" mentioned by Barkeep and body paragraphs 1, 2, and 4 of the message [not considering the "on behalf of the rest of the committee" bit mentioned by CaptainEek as a paragraph]).@Floquenbeam: I appreciate your pragmatic idea to resolve this, but I don't see how the characterisation of the 2021 message as a
"previous formal warning ... concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums"
is inaccurate at all, even with the benefit of hindsight. However, I could grumble that the warning should have been public given that it was regarding an incumbent member (and I'll check with the others to see if there is any appetite for that now). Sdrqaz (talk) 22:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Just Step Sideways: I see the 2021 warning as being on dual bases, one of which was revealing private Committee deliberations (see the "(a)" mentioned by Barkeep and body paragraphs 1, 2, and 4 of the message [not considering the "on behalf of the rest of the committee" bit mentioned by CaptainEek as a paragraph]).@Floquenbeam: I appreciate your pragmatic idea to resolve this, but I don't see how the characterisation of the 2021 message as a
- When the announcement was posted in November, I was initially somewhat mystified by the "previous formal warning", as my recollection was that WTT had more of a conversation with JSS. My understanding of "formal warning" would be that we had sent something like "Beeblebrox is admonished for X", not so much as a conversation between colleagues, although that conversation was motivated by a consensus that existed amongst the Committee. In 2021, Committee consensus about what to do seemed to have coalesced on either "Informal warning / note from an individual committee member" or "Formal warning / note from the committee as a whole", and the resulting email in my opinion is some weird hybrid of these two options. The sentence "These failures followed a previous formal warning issued to Beeblebrox in September 2021 by the Arbitration Committee concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums." would probably be more reasonable as "In September 2021, within the scope of internal Committee discussions, Beeblebrox was advised regarding his off-wiki conduct." As a more general comment, it is not uncommon for sanctioned users, no matter what "sanction" is involved, to want to have the context described correctly, so I don't think that JSS's request is unreasonable. Maxim (talk) 14:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @28bytes: I was the one who originally authored the "previous formal warning" language, if my memory serves me correctly. What I meant to convey with that language was that the warning was not just an "informal warning" from the committee, which I think in my mind would have been something like "other arbitrators say to knock it off". Instead, this warning resulted from formal discussions among the Committee on the -b list without JSS present, and was given "For the Arbitration Committee". (For reference, this is a much less common occurrence than the "informal warnings" as describe above; I might be misremembering but in my years on the committee a "formal warning" happens much less than once per year.) Clearly, the language could have been more clear, and I would not strongly object to changing it now, though I broadly concur also in Barkeep's comments. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 16:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I read through the discussion and the email. I can see arguments for it being interpreted as a formal warning or a list of concerns. However, JSS was told that his behaviour was inappropriate, then repeated that behaviour. Arbs are expected to have a heightened level of knowledge of Wikipedia's policies and procedures, and I would not expect them to need multiple reminders on a topic such as this. So if the motion says "formal warning", "list of concerns", or something else, I don't care. If an arb wants to put forward a motion to change the wording, my general attitude will probably be "shrug".
- What frustrates me is that changing the wording does not fulfil the first pillar of Wikipedia: that this is an encyclopedia. If JSS asked for OS permissions returned, or lifting other restrictions, that could help make the encyclopedia better because JSS is an experienced editor asking to help maintain the wiki. If JSS's wording was accepted, there would be no change to how Wikipedia operates or what tasks JSS can perform. Multiple editors, ex-arbs and arbs have taken time away from wiki-activities to discuss the definitions of a formal warning and a list of concerns. I would rather that JSS's energy, and the energy of all editors who commented, be put towards improving the encyclopedia instead. I will grow increasingly frustrated if JSS continues to ask ARCA to change the motion's wording instead of asking for ways to help them improve the encyclopedia. Z1720 (talk) 18:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- We can move from "formal warning" to "warning" in the text if it will reduce the drama level. Aquila non capit muscas. The edit, however, does not change the reason why the 2023 committee made the decision it did. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Clarification request: Desysoppings
Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Actions by parties to a proceeding and various cases desysopping people
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- HouseBlaster (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by HouseBlaster
Simple question: are admins who were desysopped by the committee or who resigned while a party to a case eligible to regain the tools by standing at Wikipedia:Administrator elections? I think the answer is yes, and I am even more certain the answer ought to be yes.
I am bringing this up now – and I am deliberately not naming any individual cases – because it is already going to be a drama-fest when a former admin runs to regain the tools and the ArbCom case in question is brought to the forefront. The last thing we need at that point in time is uncertainty regarding whether any particular ex-admin is even eligible for AELECT and then the inevitable ARCA specific to that case attracting yet more drama. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is described as
an alternative to the Requests for Adminship process
at WP:ADE, and the rest of the lead describes how it is distinct from RfA. My understanding is that ADE is another way to request adminship, but it is not a big-r Request for Adminship (even though the WP:Requests for adminship page is not capitalized, it is capitalized at WP:ADE and I think that is a good way of communicating the difference). Thinking out loud, perhaps a motion adding something to WP:ARBPRO stating that unless specified otherwise, "requests for adminship" refers to any method of requesting adminship, including a traditional RfA or a successful candidacy at WP:ADE. (And that this applies retroactively.) HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 03:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Extraordinary Writ
I mean, the community approved a trial, it's on track to be run in October, and the plan is to "run the election as written" with no further RfCs. It seems the community has finalized its plans around elections
as much as it's going to, and while it's pretty unlikely that anyone off of WP:FORCAUSE is going to run in October, I think HouseBlaster is right that giving some sort of guidance now could forestall a lot of drama. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by isaacl
In my view, the request for adminship process will have two routes for a trial period: the open voting method, and the secret ballot method. Thus the arbitration committee procedure in question covers both routes. isaacl (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Desysoppings: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- Recuse, obviously. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Desysoppings: Arbitrator views and discussion
- When I've been asked about this privately my answer is that once the community adopts this formally, we can see if the motions need to be updated. If Admin Elections are considered a way to RfA the standard langauge will work. If it's considered some new way, we can pass a motion to retroactively add it as an option. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @HouseBlaster WP:ADE is at the moment a work in process. Who knows what it says or what RfA will say by the time it's adopted. If the community decides the current process and elections are two paths of the same process, sort of like how you can appeal at AN or AE for CT sanctions, then I don't think we need to do anything. And if the community decides they're different then we act. But I think we should be taking our cues from the community and there is no need for us to act until the community finalized its plans around elections. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, agree with Barkeep. Or we could add something like “or equivalent process” after mention of RfA. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Also agree with Barkeep. If the community establishes a new process to become an admin, editors who are desysoped can also use that process to request/apply for the tools. Requests to update documents can happen if/when those processes are put in place. Z1720 (talk) 04:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Having run at one RfA and at two elections, I'm not a fan of the elections (a lot more uncertainty-induced stress). Putting that aside, this question was asked at Conflict of interest management and the answer is "yes": the point is that they cannot just ask at WP:BN. I'm fine with amending the procedures now, given that this is in front of us now and given Extraordinary Writ's comments. Sdrqaz (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not so gung-ho on letting desysopped admins run until after the test run. If the test run goes fine and dandy, I think the answer is an obvious yes. But if the test run is a failure/the community decides it is not going to adopt the election process after all, that raises some complex issues about legitimacy which would be further complicated by a previously desysopped admin. I'm not certain I understand how the test run will work, so if I'm wrong about the mechanics, please correct me :) CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 05:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- To me, any of the committee's references to RfA includes admin elections and includes any trials for the new process, unless the message separately mentions admin elections too. I also don't really see a legitimacy problem specific to desysopped admins in case of a trial failure. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 08:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is an example of something falling under "hard cases make bad law". The intention of "may regain tools only through a new RfA" is less to require RfA specifically, but to prohibit asking a bureaucrat for summary restoration. That said, it probably would be cleaner that no former admins with cloudy circumstances in the first election, until we have a sense of how administrator elections work in practice (which would remove an hard or edge case situation). Yet, I don't feel nearly strongly enough about to consider formally making a rule about it; if anything, a sort of a gentlemen's agreement would be more appropriate. Maxim (talk) 14:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- This feels like putting the horse a country mile before the cart. I would rather we return to this discussion if the community does this as more than a once off --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)