Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election

Earl Lawrence

Source needed: TSJ and consolidation of power

There is a big missing piece in this section (and I'm finding that often in that journalist's work). Does anyone have time to find a source that is not WP:SYNTH – that is, a source that mentions in the context of the elections what Maduro did in 2017 with respect to the consolidation of power relative to the Supreme Tribunal of Justice (Venezuela) and the Supreme Tribunal of Justice of Venezuela in exile? Turkowitz leaves out a pretty major piece of Maduro's consolidation of power.

I know of two opinion pieces that summarize it well in the context of the 2024 Venezuelan and US elections (NPR and The Hill), but there have to be other sources, as this is common knowledge.

Without undertanding this bit in the Background section, the unitiated to Venezuelan history may miss the significance every time a TSJ ruling is issued. Almost every source mentions that the TSJ is government-controlled, but I recall seeing that deleted in one edit; could anyone find a high-quality source to add to this section as relates to consolidation of power affecting election rulings, such as the barring of Machado from running and the current TSJ involvement? Alternately, would others be comfortable using the NPR piece to explain this bit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

For example, the Washington Post says "Maduro has asked Venezuela’s Supreme Tribunal of Justice, another institution he controls, to take up the case", but I'm looking for a source like the NPR that explicitly lays out the history so that it can be added to the consolidation of power bit in the Background. There are multitudes of sources that have that history, but I'd like to find one that puts it in the context of this election. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

And the BBC explains the consolidation of power and total control, but glosses the main point: it doesn't explain that began with the extra-legal manner in which the democratically-elected majority National Assembly was sidelined. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Associated Press calls it "Maduro-controlled", but again, doesn't give the history of how that was achieved via sidelining democratically elected legislature. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia should not be an Echo Chamber of the mainstream Western (or any other) press: a related problem - to be worked on over at the TSJ article, is that the composition of the chambers, in particular the Electoral Chamber, is four years out of date. Even if the judges are not yet Wikipedia-notable, at least knowing their names would help the reader with sufficient extra knowledge to try to decide if the TSJ Electoral Chamber is "Maduro-controlled" or not. Boud (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Searching scholar.google.com for Venezuela supreme court Maduro "consolidation of power" produces a lot that could be useful for updating the Background without using news sources. I'll look when I have time, and also I'll look at the es.Wikipedia article on the packed TSJ (as opposed to the TSJ in exile) to see if we can update the current composition. On the list! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

This section at the es.wiki gives a start for updating, and this source gives a 2022 list (not sure if that is currrent though). Ultimas Noticias is a government-associated source and not generally reliable, but it should be reliable for the list of judges appointed by the Maduro administration. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

There's another piece at 2017 Venezuelan constitutional crisis. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Boud here is more on the TSJ. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:56, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

That looks useful, thanks. Boud (talk) 21:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Boud, I don't typically cite the Caracas Chronicles blog, but this article gives some starting places for basic info. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Another one, Boud; this article has a bunch of detail about how the TSJ functions and the laws governing it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Ex Cle

I don't understand why this content is here; it's not a notable part of the election, and if the company is notable, that content belongs in its article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Mebane

Boud, this Infobae article has (at the end) an interview with Mebane that I haven't found time to get to, in case it interests you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

hmmm ... I thought one of the videos was an interview, but now I can't find one ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

In use

Bottle for Bread, I understand that you may have missed the edit summary, but please see WP:LEADCITE; that Maduro submitted the TSJ case is already cited in the body of the article, that the move was anticipated is already cited in the body of the article, and citations aren't required in the lead. Nonetheless, I was in the process of adding them to the lead anyway. So I've now placed the article {{in use}} to make it more clear my edit wasn't finished. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi SandyGeorgia are you talking about this source? And this quote: "On Wednesday, three days after the election, President Maduro said his coalition was "ready to present 100% of the voting tallies that are in our hands"." I don't think that this present cant be interpreted as submit. Maduro's statement indicates readiness to present the tallies, it does not necessarily mean he formally submitted them to the Supreme Court. How I see it, submitting is formally presenting documents. Isn't it more likely that CNE submitted election results? It is rather uncommon that heads of state play role in ratifying results and more commonly done by governmental agencies. Bottle for Bread (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

As far as I know, all sources agree with your conclusion: yes, what Maduro has done (verified by sources) is extremely uncommon (as summed up by Levitsky and many others). I am in the process of adding WP:CITATIONOVERKILL to the body, so the content can be added to the lead without overkilling it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Hint that the CNE has been ordered to publish 'results'

Mercopress 22 Aug states ... the TSJ also ruled while instructing the CNE to publish the results, which seems to indicate that the TSJ has ordered the CNE to publish "the results". If we had the text of what the TSJ actually published, then we would know what the CNE is supposed to publish; "the results" is vague. Boud (talk) 21:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The TSJ president, who also heads the body’s electoral branch, additionally stressed that the CNE should publish the “definitive results” in the National Gazette before an August 28 deadline. Venezuela’s electoral authority has not published detailed results broken down by voting center, with officials denouncing massive cyberattacks against state infrastructure. [1] If they're sayng she ordered publication of detailed results broken down by voting center, that seems to contradict the idea that they don't exist because of a hack. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Publication in government gazettes are the final step in laws and other legal statements in many countries, to remove any chance of ambiguity in what's in the law, and Venezuela's is Gaceta Oficial de Venezuela published since 1872 and under the current government, technically, Gaceta Oficial de la República Bolivariana de Venezuela. Presumably Venezuelanalysis means publication in Gaceta Oficial de la República Bolivariana de Venezuela. I'm not a lawyer, but my experience with searching and analysing certain items of government gazettes in a few countries is that I've never seen anything remotely representing a table equivalent to a csv file of 30,000 records in any government gazette. I expect that only a tiny handful of numbers will be presented. The difference with the current situation is that publishing false numbers in a government gazette might give higher criminal liability (under laws for making knowingly false statements) to the CNE than "just" announcing them in a press conference. I guess we'll see ... Boud (talk) 10:31, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Boud another former rector speaking up (I don't have time to get to everything): El Diario de Caracas, 26 August. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

TSJ

Do we have access to the documents Maduro presented to the TSJ? Is there an official written decision by the TSJ? 73.230.160.102 (talk) 15:31, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I searched high and low last night, and found nothing (neither a document, nor a full youtube or video for example of the TSJ hearing). I suspect getting anything is unlikely for a variety of reasons. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Anyone who knows where either of these are is welcome to give the URL here, preferably archived: H:AAS. See the external links at es:Gaceta Oficial de Venezuela for possible places where the official record of Venezuelan laws and other legal documents should, in principle, be found. The most recent gacetas.com archive seems to be this June 2021 snapshot that seems to link to pages as recent as 2020; and the TSJ seems to have some April 2024 updates on its 'Gazeta Oficial' page, but it doesn't show very much. Probably the page requires the use of too many norteamericano imperalist third-party javascript plugins to be able to be easily archived by The Wayback Machine (so much for bolivarian independence) ... Boud (talk) 17:10, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Boud besides that evidence backing the TSJ results doesn't exist, the Maduro administration is under sustained attack now from Anonymous (hacker group) (at least according to Instagram posts). I doubt that we'll see anything soon, if ever, or that the Gazeta Oficial will print anything more than we've already seen, along with claims of forgery. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

PS, the arbcase wiped out our Venezuelan resources for getting precisely this kind of info, so we're a buncha anglosajones flying blind here. :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia Even more relevant to the election than the TSJ is the CNE. I hadn't realised how poor/un-updated the article was. I've done some minor sourcing and fixing of National Electoral Council (Venezuela) so that we at least know who the current five members of the CNE are, and we now know who Aime Nogal is, even though the CNE bureaucracy decided to spell her first name "Acme", which even got into "reliable" media such as Le Monde. Boud (talk) 01:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Boud almost all Venezuelan content is dated, or poorly sourced, and much of the en.wikipedia content originated as quick translations from es.wikipedia, where sourcing and BLP standards are pretty lax and then the quick translations aggravate the issues, and then no one maintains. There aren't enough editors to keep up with the amount of work needed. Thank you for taking on that piece; it's discouraging anywhere one looks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Plan Republica

Boud there's another big piece that hasn't been addressed anywhere on en.wikipedia, and gathering sources has proven difficult (I am still having intermittent connectivity issues and am going to have to find a new provider).

The military is charged with effecting elections via something called Plan Republica. How elections are supposed to happen isn't really laid out anywhere on en.wikipedia. This isn't a generally reliable source, but gives a starting place to this one piece. And this Tal Cual piece talks about who is supposed to be at each voting table.

Anyway, that leads to this question from Infobae about where's the evidence. Because there are so many missing foundational pieces on en.wikipedia, writing new content is slow. I don't know if you are interested in furthering any of this part; I'm barely keeping up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

TO DO

See also the list for the Political crisis article.

1. Missing content: alacranes. The whole issue of the alacranes is not in this article: google search on "alacranes" elecciones Venezuela. Besides being messed up in naming, Operación Alacrán is dated and doesn't include the 2024 election pieces. [2] [3] [4] [5] Mention at the bottom of this es.wiki section could be useful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

CNE access window

Boud do you have time to work this in? If not, on my list, unless someone gets to it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

 Erledigt [6] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Nice finding - I copyedited it. I wouldn't consider it anything beyond a weak sanity check. Under the devil's advocate hypothesis that the opposition faked the actas, they presumably would have done that with access to the full database of the lists of witnesses per mesa, and access to software with the tally sheet format and to hardware for printing similar style sheets and fabricating CNE watermarks and so on - they would have only faked some of the counts. Boud (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Boud! Maybe I can get you to also copyedit 2024 Venezuelan political crisis :) I've been chunking in text too fast to refine it! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

TSJ-Mandated CNE Document Release

Does anyone have an update on when CNE are going to release the TSJ-mandated election-relation documentation? I feel like whether there was electoral fraud is the seminal issue here, no? But I feel like the article is written presupposing such fraud, e.g., giving credence to the idea that the masterminds of the greatest electoral fraud in Latin American history temporarily turned into idiots and left an look-how-ridiculously-and-clearly-impossible-in-real-life zero-sequencing fingerprint. I don't know; maybe they did?

We need to get actual documentation; otherwise, we don't know (actually know) if there was the greatest elector fraud in Latin American history. Instead, we repeat claims of such fraud even though while demanding the release of documents from CNE. And such a demand (and our insatiable need) for this information proves that we don't have it yet. And to say that the greatest electoral fraud in Latin American history just occurred without this information seems like a self-inflicted rule. No one is forcing us to quickly create this (and kindred) articles.

BTW: I'm only writing this to improve this article. Please don't ad hominem me; I'm indifferent to the results of this election. I'm not pro either side; I am an American who is indifferent to who rules a country that I've never been to, that is far away from me, and that I'm not a citizen of. 73.230.160.102 (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The CNE has already well missed the deadline (more than once) for publishing the data, and it's not likely to happen at this late stage. Re "I don't know; maybe they did?", the article reports what sources say; the reader can draw their own conclusion about your question, but there are plenty of sources saying that is exactly what happened. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, thank you for responding. 73.230.160.102 (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Simple English please!

It might help an average reader get to the salient points of this article a lot faster than the third par of the lede that only then mentions the CNE likely published falsified results. The first two pars of this article's lede fail completely to get to the point that deeply unpopular president Nicolás Maduro was going to be easily defeated at the polls but then miraculously won. If you are going to have such a rambling effort, my advice is use this quote to paraphrase the next 900 lines.

“Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.” ― Joseph Stalin

146.90.208.196 (talk) 14:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2024

Y 2001:4454:2F8:D000:1527:9D2D:4FD4:F4BE (talk) 09:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2024 (2)

X 2001:4454:2F8:D000:1527:9D2D:4FD4:F4BE (talk) 09:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)