Talk:Arnold Schoenberg

Worklist

the list of works woo, organised by medium, seems much friendlier than the list by opus numbers;should they be merged? in any event, Von Heute auf Morgen needs to be identified as a stage work, and one for four singers with a single spoken line for the child.Sparafucil 08:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC) Also, I'm tempted to delete "selected compositions" there being no obvious criterion (not all or famous or representative). The categories:compositions page is under utilized; maybe everything needs to be merged into one list? Sparafucil 04:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I haven't checked the article history, but I assume the separate categories of "Selected works", "Works with opus numbers", etc. are a product of different people working at different times. I wholeheartedly agree that "Selected works" is a pointless category next to the complete lists and, although it is the habit of some specialist writers to refer to Schoenberg's works by opus number alone (where they exist), I don't see why a merged list of with-and-without opus numbers would be a handicap to anyone. I'd say, "go for it!"--Jerome Kohl 06:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Am I being Tom-Sawyered? Did the vocal works already, w/o attempting chronological order. Sparafucil 07:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

"Tom-Sawyered"? I'm sure I don't know what you are talking about. I thought you were volunteering to do what you saw as some much-needed cleanup ;-) Certainly your efforts are much appreciated.--Jerome Kohl 20:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem now is that the list by genre is woefully incomplete because many of the works w/ opus numbers now aren't classified properly. I will get chamber music done now, but this type of change needs to (basically) be done all at once or not at all if we want to be a reliable reference. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 22:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Redirect

Schönberg redirects to Arnold Schoenberg. ...... Why? I can understand 'Arnold Schönberg' redirecting here perfectly, but not just the last name. He may be the most famous person with that name, but he's certainly far from the only one - see Claude-Michel Schönberg too. --Lobby

Sounds like you want to start a Schönberg disambig page, ala Kennedy or Miller or something like that. Go for it! --Ds13 18:43, 2005 Mar 17 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Disambiguation. Hyacinth 20:25, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. I just wanted to check here first to make sure I wasn't missing something, some reason for it being the way it currently is, before making the disambig page. (Actually, I wanted someone else to do the work for me; damn your mere helpfulness!.. So, yeah, I'll go do that now.) --Lobby/Silence 18:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's correct to call "Schoenberg" the anglicized version of "Schönberg"; it is exactly how a German speaker would type or write the name without the letter "ö". I also doubt very many English speakers would be helped by the change. More than likely, the composer got a lot of SHOWN-bergs or even SHOW-en-bergs. Without any text to the contrary, my guess would be the change was a matter of typographical ease of use. Ben L. 15:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ben L. Chris 01:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Phobia

The article claims that Schoenberg "feared turning 76, because its digits add up to thirteen." Did he also fear turning 49, 58, and 67? —Caesura 21:31, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Though you pose a good question, a phobia is an irrational fear and there is nothing strange if he did not fear those similar numbers. Hyacinth 21:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Schoenberg was not afraid of turning 76 until just prior to his birthday, when an astrologer acquaintance sent him a warning that the year was ominous. Prior to that, he had only been afraid of ages that were multiples of 13, 65 in particular.

Humph01 12:45, 1 April 2005 (UTC)

That's fascinating, genuinely...such logical music but illogical phobias! Fatboy06 21:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

He technically died in his 77th year, he had lived for 76 full years and died in the 10th month of his 77th.

That makes it 77 - 10 = 67 (6 + 7 = 13) Bad luck ! --Shandris^{the azylean} 15:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect. Subtracting the years will give you the number 77, but if you notice, july comes before september, therefore he had not quite reached his 77th year.--Psydude 19:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I've spent some time searching and can't find any corroborating information for the claim of his specific time of death, saying "harmony" etc only that he died on that day. Could we get an external link? I am interested to confirm this because not only is it a very strange coincidence but it seems rather odd that his wife would be telling him to "wake up and quit this nonsense" just before midnight as not only would normal people be sleeping, but the day would have been over shortly anyway. Sounds very dubious to me. 203.97.162.200 06:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have heard many tellings of the story in many places... if it's not true it's at least a very widespread rumour. (But it would be nice to know the truth.) I can't seem to find reference to this on schoenberg.at, which gives me at least a little bit of suspicion about it. Rainwarrior 04:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, i've only found the phobia story here. And its only in the article about Triskaidekaphobia, its not even in his main article. Can someone verify this outside, perhaps by a published biography? Until it can be verified one way or the other, i've added in the story about his death into the main article, because, true or not, it is pretty creepy. --Psydude 19:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

While I don't really care to make the change in this article myself (due mostly to my wiki-ignorance), this triskaidekaphobia thing is actually documented in a book by Malcolm MacDonald called "Schoenberg," London: J.M. Deat and Sons Ltd., 1986, pg.50, or there roundabouts. If that's enough evidence to keep that in the main article, go ahead and throw it back in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.230.115.32 (talk • contribs).

Then add this to article, why there's no telling of his death nor his strange grave?

The composer Arnold Schoenberg (ironically born on the 13th) suffered from triskaidekaphobia. He was convinced that he would die aged 76 (because 7+6 = 13). Not only did his premonition come true, he also died on Friday 13 July 1951 (another 13: Friday is the sixth day of the week - beginning on Sunday - and July is the seventh month, making 6 + 7 = 13; 1951: 19 - 5 - 1 = 13) at 11:47 PM - 13 minutes to midnight. Also, adding the numbers 1, 1, 4, and 7 brings up a total of 13.

--Shandris^{the azylean} 15:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Extramusical interests

Maybe his triskaidekaphobia should be placed under a different title, as I'm not sure how a phobia can be an extramusical interest. I presume interest refers to Schoenberg himself and not the reader. thedarkestclear 13:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I've removed the triskaedekaphobio bit for lack of references. When references are found, it can be re-added. Mak (talk) 19:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I see that it has been re-added, but the "reference" cited is [[1]], which is merely a website telling this story, not what could reasonably be called a reliable source. I have just checked a few biographies (certainly not all of them) and find it extraordinary that none of them mentions this at all, even though one or two go into excruciating detail about Schoenberg's final months. It seems to me that, unless a more convincing citation can be found, that this triskaidekaphobia business should be removed again.--Jerome Kohl 17:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Why did Schoenberg Travel To Berlin?

I have read elsewhere how Schoenberg was pretty much rejected by the Vienna scene, wife and kids to feed, totally down on his luck with only enough money for a train ticket, and he spent that money to travel to Berlin (1911?) where he was immediately hailed as a genius and accepted into the musical society, and the rest, as they say, is history.

But what I cannot uncover is why did he travel to Berlin?

he'd been there before, briefly, but why did he suddenly go back? Even the Official Schoenberg site simply has him talking to Kandinsky one moment, the next he's in a new apartment in Berlin. But why did he go there? Was he invited? Was he taking up an appointment or a commission? Was there someone he hoped to meet (as when John Cage, also penniless, travelled to NYC hoping to meet Max Ernst) Or did he have reason to expect they would be friendlier to his un-pretty music?

It puzzles me greatly, it has become my Why did the Bodhisattva travel to China? life-koan -- I can find no reasons given in any references, only as we find here, one day he's in Vienna, the next sentence he's in Berlin, and if they later appointed him head of the music academy, it would seem they really did appreciate his talents.

Does anyone know why Schoenberg risked his savings on Berlin?

Or is the whole story just a myth?

Teledyn 02:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you not find the explanation in New Grove sufficient? His financial position in Vienna had deteriorated badly. "In 1910 he offered his services to the Kaiserliche-Königliche Akademie für Musik und Darstellende Kunst as an external lecturer in theory and composition. His application was successful, but his hopes that this might lead to a professorship were thwarted. A question was asked in parliament, and he was subjected to virulent attacks on racial grounds. By the end of the academic year his circumstances had so far deteriorated that he decided to try his luck once again in Berlin, and moved there with his family in the autumn of 1911." So, he went there on spec, as it were. He managed to obtain a lectureship at the Stern Conservatory, though his lectures were poorly attended at first. New Grove does not say how he managed that post, but does mention hostile comments in the Berlin press upon his arrival, which might account for the poor attendance.--Jerome Kohl 17:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Austrian-American

Does living in the U.S. after he was 59 make him an Austrian-American? Atavi 05:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It does if he took American citizenship. CRCulver 05:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Which he did. OK. Atavi 06:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Death of Mathilde Schoenberg

I do not know the details of her death offhand, but it was Gerstl who committed suicide after she returned to Schoenberg. The Schoenberg Centre Biography says that she died much later in 1923, but doesn't give the details. (I seem to recall cancer as the reason in the back of my mind, but I can't find a reference offhand to back it up.) - Rainwarrior 18:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

This article should not be in the category

Category:Compositions by composer - perhaps someone put in the line [[Category:Compositions by composer]] (without initial colon after the bracketpair) instead somewhere? Since there is a category Category:Compositions by Arnold Schoenberg which does belong. Schissel | Sound the Note! 15:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

(fixed already, or something. Though the category Category:Compositions by Arnold Schoenberg lists Arnold Schönberg as the main article, which I hope isn't intentional, planning to change that in a bit just to be slightly picky. Thanks. Schissel | Sound the Note! 15:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This article contains a list of compositions by Arnold Schönberg. Why wouldn't it belong in this category? (It is indeed the main article for his compositions). - Rainwarrior 15:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The category I pointed to is a list of categories and pages. The pages are all of the form "List of works by ----" - specifically, not mixed with biography etc., and also importantly, so named. (It was, when I wrote that, (edit - almost!!) the only page in that category in fact that wasn't of the form "List of compositions by x", and tended to stand out. It's not there anymore. Hrm. RobertG's recent edit might account for that. Ok, didn't imagine that- non-trivial I sometimes think...) Schissel | Sound the Note! 23:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Schoenberg's political views

I know Schoenberg was a communist, or at least held communist/socialist views and leaned far to the left. It directly relates to one of the principles of of atonal theory (the destruction of tonal heirarchy). Does anyone have a source for this? I think it should definitely be added to the article. A quick Google search didn't reveal much, and I don't have my library card with me, so I can't access my library's online databases like Grove and JSTOR; but if someone has a biography or something of the like, it'd save some time. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 10:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It is true that many of the postwar composers interested in serialism are/were communists. Luigi Nono springs very quickly to mind, but there are many others.

Schoenberg, however, was not a communist. He was also opposed to the term "atonal", and the phrase "destruction of tonal heirarchy" doesn't really fit with the way he described what he was doing (he considered it more of an extension beyond tonality, not the destruction of it). Even in his writings on music (published as "Style and Idea") you can see right wing tendencies; his argument for stronger copyright, for instance; his view of the composer as a privileged expert; etc, and there are articles more directly related to his political views in journals out there (sorry, I can't come up with a citation offhand), and these views also correlate directly with his religious beliefs. - Rainwarrior 14:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

First off, let me say that I completely unsure of Schoenberg's political views. However, I do not think there is any contradiction between having Communist sympathies and arguments for strong copyright or the composer as a superior being. To me such views are variations on authoritarianism, and Russian Communism, at least, certainly had no problem with that. Chris 01:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hans Eisler wrote of his trepidation in introducing AS to Brecht, on account of the formers conservative politics.Sparafucil 08:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Schoenberg himself wrote, in a short essay titled "My Attitude toward Politics" (1950), published on pp. 551–52 of H. H. Stuckenschmidt's Schoenberg: His Life, World and Work (New York: Schirmer Books, 1977), that "before I was twenty-five, I had already discovered the difference betwen me and a labourer; I then found out that I was a bourgeois and turned away from all political contacts." He goes on to say that his experience during World War I turned him into a monarchist, and remained a quiet monarchist for many years, "though the chance for a restoration was at zero." The essay ends with the flat statement, "I was never a communist."--Jerome Kohl 03:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

From Schoenberg's letters at http://www.schoenberg.at/4_exhibits/asc/Kandinsky/letters_e.htm#

-"What have I to do with communism? I’m not one and never was one!"

-"Trotsky and Lenin spilt rivers of blood (which, by the way, no revolution in the history of the world could ever avoid doing!), in order to turn a theory – false, it goes without saying (but which, like those of the philanthropists who brought about previous revolutions, was well meant) – into reality. It is a thing to be cursed and a thing that shall be punished, for he who sets his hand to such things must not make mistakes!"

-"The anti-Semites are, after all, world-reforming busybodies with no more perspicacity and with just as little insight as the communists."

If there is still anyone unconvinced, expect him to show us stronger evidence. User: kansallinenkokoomus

Citations?

Some Schoenberg expert should really substantiate this article with citations... I've never seen an article with so many unreferenced claims.[This unsigned entry was made on 23 May 2007 by 128.135.96.6]

As the person responsible for the majority of the calls for verification now peppering this article, I couldn't agree with you more, though it would hardly take a "Schoenberg expert" to fill many of the gaps. I notice that a few of these calls have been answered, though in at least one case the "citation" is to a website opinion/rumor page which itself is unverifiable. Care needs to be taken to cite only credible sources.--Jerome Kohl 17:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

There are a great many statements in the article that are marked as requiring citations, but do not in fact require any, except perhaps the most general ones. For example, it is certainly the case that around the turn of the twentieth century many intellectuals felt that thought had been developed as far as it could go; there is no need to find an instance of an historian saying it in another source. Another example is the sentence about the second string quartet; the music is the source, and may be examined by anyone. There are, on the other hand, other statements for which citations would be entirely appropriate, though I am generally disturbed by the citation mania that has overtaken the Wikipedia project in recent months. Such a thing as common knowledge exists, and to deny it is rather silly.Vaux 03:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)